Secondaries to compliment pac?

[fromundaman]

I'm not the only one!?
Hmm, interesting. What do you think the matchup is and why?

I don't have enough offline experience against tournament level foxes to say for sure (The only ones I have played, there was a significant skill gap).

My impressions based on the online experience and the few offline matches I do have could be wrong, but basically:

-Fox has to approach as Hydrant can block lasers forever.

-Jab launched hydrant and trampoline make approaching difficult for Fox.

-Reflector forces us to be very careful with fruit placement and hydrant launches. Bell is probably the most useful fruit due to this as it will reflect straight up and disappear.

-If you keep a trampoline between you and Fox in the neutral, you negate his kill power.I honestly feel that after you hit 80%, there should ALWAYS be a trampoline on stage.
That said, killing him will be hard as some of your usual kill moves (Hydrant/fruits) become very dangerous to use due to reflector and can in turn kill you. I would suggest killing with Bair, edgeguard setups, Bthrow or using Key to punish a landing he already committed to (Like a falling Nair/Dair).

-It is really easy to force fox to go for the ledge, at which point ledge traps come into play. Fox is very susceptible to our ledge shenanigans, but do be aware that a ledge drop reflector could ruin your day if the hydrant is too close.

-Fox combos us better, despite our Nair. That said I believe (Please correct me if I'm wrong) that we can Nair and trampoline out of jabx2>grab.

-We can punish pretty much everything Fox has OoS with UpB. That said Fox can also punish most of our aerials on shield with Nair OoS.

Pac-Man vs Mario is only good when you fight on For Glory, but when you fight in tournament the match is hell because better player. I'm picking up Pit to counter that.

I actually have experience against a very good tournament level Mario and IDK... Mario definitely counters the defensive style of Pacman I think most of us have, and he kind of doesn't care overly much about our traps, but I do think the MU gets closer to even if we match his aggression and prevent him from dictating the flow of the match. Our normals do beat his in the air and on the ground, though on average he is faster in both areas (Although our Fair matches his speed while also beating a lot of his options) and he is in general much safer than we are. It's because of these two things though that we can't play defensively; you can't punish a safe move. You can, however, beat out that move while it's active and prevent him from having a chance to make himself safe.

 

[Jay-kun]

The secret to beating Mario is by letting him come at you.

 

[fromundaman]

Okay, I now have officially no idea how to play against Mario and it may just be player dependent.

Against Xeroxen a more aggressive style worked whereas camping failed, but yesterday I played another, less good Mario at our weeklies who was blowing up my offense but getting demolished by defensive play (Especially Trampoline OoS).

I still don't think Pacman loses the MU, but it does seem like the strategy you use has to counter whichever playstyle he's using.

 

[warionumbah2]

For those of you who doubt MK beating Rosalina, here's a tournament where a MK user on our boards beat her. http://smashboards.com/threads/meta...n-critique-thread.371317/page-3#post-18754137

There's times where he could've poked luma off stage to make the win less agonizing, but hey he won. 2-1. Forgot the time where he fights her so try and find it i know its over halfway through.

Yeah even though he got Nerfed hard imo he's still fairly good

For every nerf he got, a buff came with it. Marth and Falco went from hero to zero real quick unlike MK.

Edit: MK has a clear advantage against Villager in and out of customs, the link above has MK blow a Villager away if that helps.

 

[Galaxian]

As a Pac-Main myself, I do tend to have my tricky MUs.

I do have a few too-many secondaries, but I tend to pull out either Kirby, Mario, or Ness for the troublesome MUs for Pac. I'll pull out Sonic if I'm facing a R.O.B because **** I hate that robot

Mario seems to cover Pac's options nicely, though. I'm unsure. I played Ness early 3DS days and still do and he seems to compliment Pac-Man nicely. Both rely on projectiles, though Ness gets in more than Pac does. Bit better on rushdowns that want in your face, though I really ought to play Mario more too. Mario does well as well.

It's all how you want to play. What playstyle ****s up your Pac the worst, find a character that counteracts that. Pick up Rosaluma and **** up the Villagers :^)))

 

[Gam3rALO]

I mostly use Mario as my secondary. His D-Air helps a ton against Rosey + Luma and against other MUs that can reflect Pac Mans projectiles easily like Pit, Palutena, fox, falco.

 

[Galaxian]

I mostly use Mario as my secondary. His D-Air helps a ton against Rosey + Luma and against other MUs that can reflect Pac Mans projectiles easily like Pit, Palutena, fox, falco.

Yeah, Mario seems to patch up Pac's downsides nicely.

Mario / Rosie isn't a MU that Mario gets in his favor, but it's worlds better than Pac/Rosie. Good lord that MU is literally cancer. Just look at the APEX sets of it. TO'd 3 times.

 

[Nu~]

I go solo with mega man as a secondary for pure fun.
I only struggle against Rosa and Sonic, but sonic has gotten slowly better. Reflectors are cake once you pull them into mid range and closer.

I would wait a while and study the matchups closer before rushing to a secondary, but that's just my opinion.
Explore all your options and look for possibilities before rushing to quick out.

 

[Galaxian]

I go solo with mega man as a secondary for pure fun.
I only struggle against Rosa and Sonic, but sonic has gotten slowly better. Reflectors are cake once you pull them into mid range and closer.

I would wait a while and tidy the matchups closer before rushing to a secondary, but that's just my opinion.

This is a good point, yeah. Tidy up your MUs before jumping on board to a secondary, but if you feel a MU is one you just can't do, pick up a secondary that patches your flaws. If you get ****ed up by offensive play, pick up a character that counters that. Like Mario or Fox, or something.

Or play Kirby, no matter what, and main the best two spheres in SSB4

 

[Nu~]

Or play Kirby, no matter what, and main the best two spheres in SSB4

Ahem! *cough* Pac-Man and Meta Knight *cough*
Surprisingly they cover all of each other's poor matchups.
Except sonic, which is a little project that I am still diving deeper into.
We will beat that blue hedgehog eventually!

 

[Galaxian]

Ahem! *cough* Pac-Man and Meta Knight *cough*
Surprisingly they cover all of each other's poor matchups.
Except sonic, which is a little project that I am still diving deeper into.
We will beat that blue hedgehog eventually!

I actually don't have that much trouble with Sonic. While he gets in my face and that's awful for Pac, I can keep him at bay with fruits and make my space.

Sonic's range is kind of awful if you somehow manage to outspace him. While being the fastest character in the game helps him with this, Pac can do alright against him.

I'd rather pull out my Mario for the MU which is ironic, since I feel the MU is equal.

 

[Jay-kun]

I go solo with mega man as a secondary for pure fun.
I only struggle against Rosa and Sonic, but sonic has gotten slowly better. Reflectors are cake once you pull them into mid range and closer.

I would wait a while and study the matchups closer before rushing to a secondary, but that's just my opinion.
Explore all your options and look for possibilities before rushing to quick out.

ya even competitive smashers like m2king need to have some fun sometimes (not being sarcastic)

 

[SPoitter]

Ahem! *cough* Pac-Man and Meta Knight *cough*
Surprisingly they cover all of each other's poor matchups.
Except sonic, which is a little project that I am still diving deeper into.
We will beat that blue hedgehog eventually!

MK can beat Sonic lol. And no it's not some biased guess, I actually use Meta Knight, one thing you can do to beat Sonic is stop shielding spin dashes & just out maneuver them, it puts unnecessary pressure on you, so just punish Sonic, it's really easy to punish sonic if you have enough patience. So yeah, MK is a nice secondary.

 

[Galaxian]

MK can beat Sonic lol. And no it's not some biased guess, I actually use Meta Knight, one thing you can do to beat Sonic is stop shielding spin dashes & just out maneuver them, it puts unnecessary pressure on you, so just punish Sonic, it's really easy to punish sonic if you have enough patience. So yeah, MK is a nice secondary.

Really? I should try out MK more, actually. Considering the Rosie mains said MK beats her too.

Maybe Meta Knight is secretly top tier again. I'm joking, of course

 

[Nu~]

MK can beat Sonic lol. And no it's not some biased guess, I actually use Meta Knight, one thing you can do to beat Sonic is stop shielding spin dashes & just out maneuver them, it puts unnecessary pressure on you, so just punish Sonic, it's really easy to punish sonic if you have enough patience. So yeah, MK is a nice secondary.

You have a very different opinion than the entire meta knight board lol.
I've heard 40:60 to 30:70's being thrown around over there.

 

[Jay-kun]

You have a very different opinion than the entire meta knight board lol.
I've heard 40:60 to 30:70's being thrown around over there.

oi!

 

[SPoitter]

tha

You have a very different opinion than the entire meta knight board lol.
I've heard 40:60 to 30:70's being thrown around over there.

that's probably because Sonic doesn't leave you much time to think.

 

[warionumbah2]

Its 60:40 even seagall thinks so, guess we overreacted with the 70:30 thing although some users think its 70:30 still. Its not polerizing like pac man vs rosalina, MK can legit have close games against a campy sonic user and win.

The problem is the amount of work you're willing to put into MK. While also using someone as unique as pac man.

 

[Reaper Talk]

I'm still in the process if picking my mains and such
Is Yoshi good to cover Pac-Man and vice versa ?

 

[Paper Maribro]

I'm still in the process if picking my mains and such
Is Yoshi good to cover Pac-Man and vice versa ?

It's what I use. It's all about preference though, which MUs do you have difficulty with in particular?

 

[fromundaman]

I'm starting to think that Pacman doesn't actually need a secondary. Our character is versatile enough that we can deal with all matchups, and even the characters I thought were unwinnable MUs, such as Rosalina, started getting easier once I started utilizing playstyles outside of my comfort zone.

 

[Reaper Talk]

It's what I use. It's all about preference though, which MUs do you have difficulty with in particular?

Mainly just Rosaluma...

Spoiler

Most matchups are hard for me because I need to get good at the game.
Yoshi and Pac-Man seem to cover most of my shortcomings though

 

[Galaxian]

Mainly just Rosaluma...

I hear you. Rosalina ****s all over Pac-Man, it makes me cry.

I've picked up Mario for those problems, but I might try out Sheik exclusively for Rosalina MUs because I hate her that much.

Why does she need a meatshield AND a projectile absorber? Why can she down-B the hydrant when it's on the ground? Why does she play like a puppet character with Luma but get no downsides to losing it and it respawns in a few seconds anyway? Rosalina is stupid.

 

[Reaper Talk]

Personally, I grew fond of Dr. Mario
Fast pills, gust cape,and soaring tornado make up for a lot of weaknesses
Sheik just doesn't have the kill power I'm looking for

 

[fromundaman]

I actually am no longer convinced Rosalina is a hard counter. When I get access to my computer again, I will explain why.

That said, she is not a character you can zone; you have to play a midrange game until you have an opening, then pressure her until she forces you back out.

 

[Galaxian]

I actually am no longer convinced Rosalina is a hard counter. When I get access to my computer again, I will explain why.

That said, she is not a character you can zone; you have to play a midrange game until you have an opening, then pressure her until she forces you back out.

Not a hard-counter but I'll be damned if the MU isn't in Rosie's favor.

I know what you mean, though. Bait out down-B and punish accordingly.

 

[Nu~]

@ fromundaman Well finally someone agrees with what I have been trying to explain for ages.

@ Galaxian
It's not only about baiting down B either.

I have a write up about how Rosie no longer feels like a difficult matchup

Call me a masochist, but I'm enjoying the rosalina matchup now. GP is fun to play with.

GP is incredibly punishable in mid range. If she tries to use it on my fruit in mid range, I just pick it up with a dash attack for a free z drop and free damage. Rosa should never use GP on the hydrant because if he are within a 1/3 of the distance of FD close to her, we can punish it (who cares about its low cooldown if the move lasts a year long)
I'm starting to think that Rosa's GP might be worse than the average reflector because of how laggy and nonoffensive it is. As long as you stay within mid range, her GP only helps you by giving you your fruit back as a z droppable item.
Keys and melons are your best friends. The key eats luma and blows rosa away, and in combination with the hydrant, it's an instant luma destroyer. You have to use the key at mid range or closer however, so that you can catch it once it hits the ground and she ran aims in the GP animation.
Any further and you just gave rosa your key.

The melon is good because you can run with it. If rosa GPs, then you can pick it up quickly with a dash attack since you are so close to it. If she shields, Luma gets blown back, and you can recatch the melon.

Rosa's uair loses to hydrant. This is pretty big, because rosa can't juggle us well like she can to any other character. If she baits the hydrant and uses an aerial GP, then ff nair her, or use the time to escape the area right above her.

GP only forces us to play a more mid range/CQC game, but it doesn't hinder us in any way. We shouldn't camp with pac-man anyway.

Now for Rosa's CQC.
She outranges us, it's pretty obvious. But her attacks last for centuries. If you powershield her nair, you can immediately follow up with a nair of your own or a double fair into nair. This is what makes the trampoline so amazing in this matchup. She can't approach us safely, and she is too slow to catch our landing. Fight rosa in the air, only if you are in her face. Stick to the ground if you are a distance away so that you can play the punish game. Her dair can be punished OoS by trampoline, her uair can be punished by the hydrant, her fair should never be used as an approach due to its landing lag and weird hitbox, and her nair can be punished out of a powershield or shield drop.

Fighting so many high ranking rosa players on smash ladder has changed me, I don't fear rosa any longer.

I agree that we don't need a secondary.

 

[Firedemon0]

@ fromundaman Well finally someone agrees with what I have been trying to explain for ages.

@ Galaxian
It's not only about baiting down B either.

I have a write up about how Rosie no longer feels like a difficult matchup

I agree that we don't need a secondary.

We do not need a secondary, but to say Rosalina is not difficult matchup I have to disagree. Luma is what makes this matchup so balls hard. GP is just an extra annoyance.

 

[Nu~]

We do not need a secondary, but to say Rosalina is not difficult matchup I have to disagree. Luma is what makes this matchup so balls hard. GP is just an extra annoyance.

Yeah, I may have exaggerated that a tiny bit ^^;

I don't think that the matchup is more difficult than 40:60.

Luma makes it very hard, but we have great tools to eliminate Luma like nair, hydrant drop, and fruits (especially key).

If we stay close to rosa, we can use our anti-Luma tools more effectively. But that requires us to adopt a heavy mid range/bait and punish type playstyle if we want to get in safely.

 

[Reaper Talk]

I disagree with the "one character only" strategy.
I believe everyone should have a secondary.
Even if you practice with one character, you're going to have bad days where your main just isn't working for you.
If you want to use one character that's completely fine and viable, but it doesn't hurt to have a secondary as a back up
I main Yoshi but I still love playing Pac-Man and often switch between the two to throw my opponent off.
That's just me, if playing only Pac-Man makes you happy then go for it

 

[Spirst]

The whole "not need a secondary" thing is more about competitive viability as opposed to having a secondary to use for personal enjoyment. Characters like Zelda that have bad MU spreads will no doubt need a secondary to cover her glaring weaknesses if you want to play competitively whereas Pac-Man, who is a much more well-rounded character that only has a few iffy MUs, won't need one. In a tournament setting, you're less likely to encounter characters who soft-counter you (I really don't feel like Pac has any big hardcore counters) since the MU spread for Pac-Man isn't that bad at all.

 

[Galaxian]

I suppose so, but I haven't learnt that MU yet so I stick with Mario for my Rosie MUs. I'll practice it in the future.

 

[fromundaman]

@ fromundaman Well finally someone agrees with what I have been trying to explain for ages.

@ Galaxian
It's not only about baiting down B either.

I have a write up about how Rosie no longer feels like a difficult matchup

I agree that we don't need a secondary.

I apologize for doubting you; I have seen the light, and your write up is pretty accurate. Our scene's Rosalina player finally convinced me to attempt the MU against him with Pacman instead of looking for secondaries for it and I am happy he did.

I will add a couple of things though:


-Hydrant is the MVP of our moveset for this MU, but unlike in most matchups, you can't really use it for traps and instead have to use it to separate Rosa and Luma or to break Uair juggles. Also throwing Hydrant at Rosa when she grabs the ledge guaranteed kills Luma as Luma gets no invulnerability.

-Be very careful when recovering. GP messes with our sideB and can force us to trampoline, which in turn gives her an easy chance to steal our last jump. If possible, recover high.

-Key, Apple, Melon and occasionally orange are the only fruits I would suggest using in this MU. The others don't launch Luma very far and are easy for Rosalina to take control of. That said, with these fruits charged, we can play footsies with her by spacing Fairs just outside of her range, backing off and punishing counterattack attempts and/or mixing it up with retreating fruit.



That said, it is obvious Rosalina still has an advantage, but it is not a big one. This MU is definitely doable, and that is just about the greatest thing ever.

 

[Reaper Talk]

I see everyone's point on Pac-Man's versatility but at the same time I have more faith in my Yoshi
But the Yoshi board isn't very active...
I don't know who to commit more too...
I don't care about the Rosaluma matchup I just need to have a main.
Can anyone share there thoughts ?
If Pac-Man is fine on his own I might just leave my green dinosaur friend behind

 

[Nu~]

I see everyone's point on Pac-Man's versatility but at the same time I have more faith in my Yoshi
But the Yoshi board isn't very active...
I don't know who to commit more too...
I don't care about the Rosaluma matchup I just need to have a main.
Can anyone share there thoughts ?
If Pac-Man is fine on his own I might just leave my green dinosaur friend behind

Yoshi's future is bleak. He gains nothing from customs, and loses to 2 of the best characters in the game. I would stick with PacMan

 

[Paper Maribro]

For me, I require a secondary for Pac. For reasons I will now outline:

1. The bad Matchups. Our bad matchups I feel are pretty horrid and not so good. Thankfully, our worst matchups are with characters that are top tiers but not popular ones (Sonic, Rosa). However, this does mean fighting one in tournament is gonna be tough due to lack of experience. They won't have Pac experience so that might help but who knows. My primary training partner mains Rosa and he knows the MU inside and out. He knows most, if not all, of my tricks and always seems to have the upperhand. As such, I would never go Pac against his Rosa in tournament. It's just asking for trouble.
2. Mental drag. I find this is a major reason as to why a secondary should be played with Pac. For me, I find Pac Man incredibly mentally draining when playing against a good player who knows the MU. . Pac is also quite draining because of his killing difficulty. He doesn't have that quick and instant satisfaction factor that will relieve stress that characters like Diddy do. As such, it becomes even more draining playing Pac when having a bad day as opponents live forever and you're left wondering what you did wrong.
3. Consistency. Kinda linked to the previous one but something else that should be brought up. I find day to day my Pac's ability swerve wildly. I go from beating good players to losing to people I can normally beat comfortably. You have to constantly be 2 steps ahead of your opponent and must always be in the lead, lest you have to work even harder than you already were. Pac Man is a hard character to play at a high level, especially against those knowledgeable in the MU as you have to be playing extremely well to get similar results to playing less hard to play characters.

I'm not trying to say don't main Pac, but these are things I have issues with as someone who has mained Pac since day 1. I still play the character and have no plans to drop him. You could find that your Pac experiences none of these issues and you will be fine without a secondary. Just give him a try and if you have fun, keep at it!

Edit: Playing Pac Man is like a weird love affair. One moment you're feeling better than ever, the next moment the other half isn't pulling its weight for some reason. It's rocky, but you get through it.

 

[Galaxian]

Yoshi's future is bleak. He gains nothing from customs, and loses to 2 of the best characters in the game. I would stick with PacMan

So does literally everyone else.

 

[Nu~]

So does literally everyone else.

You know that's an exaggeration lol.
Diddy and Shiek both have even matchups against other characters (custom Kirby beats shiek, we beat diddy, custom sonic goes even with diddy, etc)

For me, I require a secondary for Pac. For reasons I will now outline:

1. The bad Matchups. Our bad matchups I feel are pretty horrid and not so good. Thankfully, our worst matchups are with characters that are top tiers but not popular ones (Sonic, Rosa). However, this does mean fighting one in tournament is gonna be tough due to lack of experience. They won't have Pac experience so that might help but who knows. My primary training partner mains Rosa and he knows the MU inside and out. He knows most, if not all, of my tricks and always seems to have the upperhand. As such, I would never go Pac against his Rosa in tournament. It's just asking for trouble.
2. Mental drag. I find this is a major reason as to why a secondary should be played with Pac. For me, I find Pac Man incredibly mentally draining when playing against a good player who knows the MU. . Pac is also quite draining because of his killing difficulty. He doesn't have that quick and instant satisfaction factor that will relieve stress that characters like Diddy do. As such, it becomes even more draining playing Pac when having a bad day as opponents live forever and you're left wondering what you did wrong.
3. Consistency. Kinda linked to the previous one but something else that should be brought up. I find day to day my Pac's ability swerve wildly. I go from beating good players to losing to people I can normally beat comfortably. You have to constantly be 2 steps ahead of your opponent and must always be in the lead, lest you have to work even harder than you already were. Pac Man is a hard character to play at a high level, especially against those knowledgeable in the MU as you have to be playing extremely well to get similar results to playing less hard to play characters.

I'm not trying to say don't main Pac, but these are things I have issues with as someone who has mained Pac since day 1. I still play the character and have no plans to drop him. You could find that your Pac experiences none of these issues and you will be fine without a secondary. Just give him a try and if you have fun, keep at it!

Edit: Playing Pac Man is like a weird love affair. One moment you're feeling better than ever, the next moment the other half isn't pulling its weight for some reason. It's rocky, but you get through it.

Damn man, that's rough
I love the difficulty of pac-man. I don't like straight forward characters. It never feels rewarding for me. I love to use all my tools creatively to win.
The lack of super reliable kill moves doesn't bother me either. I like earning my kills in unique ways.
I have my off days as well, but it's normally just smash in general than Pac-Man in particular.

 

[BSP]

Pac-Man doesn't need a secondary. That said, I keep my Mario up because of everything @ Paper Maribro said, and the fact that my Pac-Man is a fish out of water in doubles. IDK how you guys do it.

As of late, Sonic scares me more than Rosalina.

 

[Galaxian]

Pac-Man doesn't need a secondary. That said, I keep my Mario up because of everything @ Paper Maribro said, and the fact that my Pac-Man is a fish out of water in doubles. IDK how you guys do it.

As of late, Sonic scares me more than Rosalina.

I keep a secondary because as much as I love Pac-Man, and that's a lot, I can't be always playing him. If a character gives me trouble as Pac, or if someone's kicking my **** in when I play him, I'll switch to Mario, Ness, or Kirby and see how it goes from there.

Mario actually gives me the best results most of the time, but I mostly play Pac-Man due to my love for him. Not to say I don't win with Pac-Man, though.

Sonic's spooky, but just try to keep him at bay with Nairs and fruit. Hard to do, I know, but Hydrant is also a good idea - you can stop Sonic in his tracks and use it as bait, if he wants to hit the hydrant anyway. Trampolines, too. It's all about stage control with Sonic - if you don't put a stop in his tracks, he'll just run all over you.