screw attack

[Jasona]

I noticed that one of the differences between using the screw attack from the air and the ground is when you can begin FFing. From the ground, you have to wait until after you reach the peak of the move, but from the air you can FF before reaching the peak. Before commiting to playing with the idea of jumping before the screw attack, I want to ask about one other difference that may just be my imagination/ "lack of observation".
When I've tried to FF as early as possible, from a screw attack that was started in the air, I haven't seen the knockback of the last strike in the same way that I see it from a grounded screw attack. Am I FFing so early that I get out of range of the last strike? Is my problem situational (opponents character and/or low %)? I'm blind? Something else?

If I had a cube, then I might be able to answer this myself

 

[Cra$hman]

wait wait wait wait wait.
i don't think you fully realize what you may be saying
iirc the second to last hit in screwattack is the spike
so if you could purposely miss with the last hit...
is this a possibility here or am i just completely full of ****?

 

[phanna]

When I've tried to FF as early as possible, from a screw attack that was started in the air, I haven't seen the knockback of the last strike in the same way that I see it from a grounded screw attack.

That's not related to your fast-falling. Both ground and aerial screw-attacking can hit 12 times, but the ground one has more 'knock-up/back' than the aerial one does. This isn't due to fast-falling or anything else you're doing, that's just a basic difference that was programmed into the game. Samus' up-b from the ground goes faster and higher with more power, but takes longer to FF. Samus' aerial up-b doesn't go as far or as hard, but can be DI'd more and FF'd sooner.

Samus' ground up-b is useful to do out of your shield, especially when there is a ledge nearby (eg, corneria). Other than that, it's not too useful. Samus' aerial up-b should mostly only be used when recovering, because even though it does suck them in and do some damage, it'll leave you way too vulnerable most of the time.

 

[Jasona]

DI more, FF sooner, less knockback... sounds like something I should play with. If I could vary the distance between an opponent and samus, for example; through bombing off someone and DIing, then manipulating the screw attack might be easier... I'm really interested in the first hit of the screw attack, but the last few strikes sound interesting

 

[Aftermath]

The first hit of the screw attack was nerfed in the later versions (ie. anything but 1.00), so that kinda loses something for the ground one. Other than that, they're nearly the same, the only difference being that yes, the last hit of the air upB is more DIable, although the difference is pretty negligible. I'm also fairly certain the middle 10 hits are identical between the two.

I have a hunch that the "spike" on her upB is the top back hitbox on the upB, because it always seems like the oponent gets spiked from that area when they DI away, or smash Di more likely. I haven't really tested this theory much, but like Jasona, I've been out of a GCN for quite some time.

As for which to use as a main attack or whatever, i'd suggest the ground one. Since the air upB can be DI'd more effectively, or so it seems, the opponent always seems to break out of stun or be able to reach the ground more quickly than with the gorund upB, so my guess is the air one would get you punished more often than the ground upB.

 

[Cra$hman]

i think its just like jasona said groand upB has more knockback on last hit thats why they seem to get to you faster on air upB

 

[HugS]

Wow jasona, you always bring up new ****. This is interesting, i will look into it and experiment.

 

[Jasona]

I've been thinking about the lag after the screw attack and the early FF of A-up+b (aerial up+b, starting the up+b from the air). I want to use the A-up+b more and the G-up+b only in rare emergencies, but it isn't reasonable to always jump before the up+b and the lag never changes. So I've been wondering and now I have an idea.
Dangling from the ledge. While dangling, I can let go and A-up+b. I can DI and grab the ledge again to cancel the lag. When I'm onstage and close to the ledge, I can even G-up+b, knowing that I can make up for the lack of an early FF by DIing and grabbing the ledge. I'm still working on edgeguarding and camping with this idea. I've found that FFing before A-up+b'ing is an interesting trick.

EDIT -> I should quote him ^ on that

 

[Deveyus]

I am going to look into the spiking capabilities of the Up + B as a spike, this sounds like it has great WTF potential...

 

[kamikaze falco]

you do that

 

[Andromon58]

I did this earlier today to my buddy playing as fox, he just looked at me and shook his head, like I had purposely caused this little oddity to kill him.

 

[Jasona]

now that i'm taking smash seriously again, its time for me to blather on about my amazing discoveries.
canceling the up+b with a ledgegrab is amazing
i'm working on learning how far away (horizontally and vertically) i can up+b from the ledge and still DI into a ledgegrab, preferably before my opponent goes anywhere dangerous. part of that is learning/remembering when i can turn myself around in the up+b. I'd like to be able to up+b, DI towards the ledge and turn myself for the ledgegrab.
ledgegrabing the up+b can be used for comboing. most of the time, i up+b from whatever (sheild, fair, uair, etc), ledgegrab cancel it, and ledgehop uair them onto the stage. it is also cool to interupt someones recovery with this. plus, doing this repetatively is funny and racks up a few percent.
the point is, this always leads into something and if you're fast enough, you'll be invincible for the start of it (meaning the uair beats out their move and you combo)

I could post much more about my experiences with this, but i'll wait awhile

 

[Lanowen]

Platform canceling is also a possibility right?

Just hitting the edge of the platform and falling off?

Just putting that out there...

That was more or less rhetorical

 

[Hylian]

YEs, Platform cancling works just as well or better then grabbing a ledge. You can even platfrom cancel from the ledge into a ledgegrab.

 

[JettythatSamus]

How do you spike with up+B? I've seen it done so I know what it looks like, but everytime I try it I suck in my opponent.

 

[Jasona]

Platform cancling works just as well or better then grabbing a ledge

i disagree
after i up+b, my opponent is usually above me. when they're not, i'm not worried about landing because i'm getting ***** for screwing up the up+b. when they're above me, i want to cancel that landing lag so i don't get whacked on the head and so that i can attack, which few people expect. ledgegrabbing is much easier and safer than ledge-canceling (imo, but maybe thats just because i suck). the area she needs to be in and still grab the ledge is larger than the area she needs to be in to ledge-cancel. although, she can ledge-cancel in more places than she can ledgegrab, if you've got the skillz, thats a lifesaver on stages without ledges (mute city).
for people without the skillz, i strongly recomend learning to cancel your up+b lag with a ledgegrab. from that ledge, you can work miracles. you've got a moment of invulnerability, your opponent is guaranteed to be above you, and you can pause to let your opponent descend a little further. ledge-canceling doesn't have that.

anyway, imo this is a huge step in learning to combo with samus. here are a few examples i performed in the two tournaments that occurred during the last week:
vs some falcon-> when he was recovering low, i used the up+b below him so that when it finished he was even with the stage. i ledgegrabbed and immediately let go, FF'd some and used the up+b again. i FF'd into another ledgegrab, ledgehopped away from the stage into an uair, DI'd toward the stage, which throws him away from it, ledgegrabbed and repeated the whole process twice more until he was ready to die from a nair or bair.
I also did the same thing to a fox-> up+b, FF to ledgegrab and repeat until he is at the height for an uair/bair
vs any char that tried to stop me from getting up off of the ledge-> i'd ledgehop into an uair/fair, FF l-cancel it before it finished, and up+b'd before they could do anything from their CCing. it pulled them off of the ground and over the ledge, where i ledgehopped into an uair and threw them off. if they didn't go very far, i ledgegrabbed and jumped out for another round of up+b into uair.
from instage-> uair, FF, WD, up+b, to ledgegrab and if they're still not close enough for an uair, i ledgehopped to WD to up+b and pulled them even closer.

I'm anxious to see what will come of this this saturday at the next tournament/smashfest. seriously, MD/VA has something going on twice every week. its crazy. maybe i'll learn to make a vid and throw out some visual examples. samus is a beast

 

[Hylian]

i disagree
after i up+b, my opponent is usually above me. when they're not, i'm not worried about landing because i'm getting ***** for screwing up the up+b. when they're above me, i want to cancel that landing lag so i don't get whacked on the head and so that i can attack, which few people expect. ledgegrabbing is much easier and safer than ledge-canceling (imo, but maybe thats just because i suck). the area she needs to be in and still grab the ledge is larger than the area she needs to be in to ledge-cancel. although, she can ledge-cancel in more places than she can ledgegrab, if you've got the skillz, thats a lifesaver on stages without ledges (mute city).
for people without the skillz, i strongly recomend learning to cancel your up+b lag with a ledgegrab. from that ledge, you can work miracles. you've got a moment of invulnerability, your opponent is guaranteed to be above you, and you can pause to let your opponent descend a little further. ledge-canceling doesn't have that.

You have valid point's yes..and I do ledgegrab more then platform cancel my up B I just think platform cancling can be more useful because you can immediatly uair or sexkick when your opponent will be thinking you will be recovering from the lag. I have been doing this in tournys for awhile and it seems to work well but yeah..I usually just go for the edge if there is one near.

 

[Zurad]

I have never seen a spike with an Up B, or had any idea that it even existed

Is there a video someone can direct me to so that I may see the wonder and beauty of the Screw Spike myself?

 

[Kick]

im not exactly sure how its done, but whenever i do it (on accident) it seems my opponent isnt fully inside the screw attack, so since there is no force acting opposite the last hit, they get spiked.

ive always done it out of a shield, but i may be jumping first.

 

[ESAM]

I thought you guys were talking about when they are hanging on the edge holding away from the edge (about to ledgehop or something) and you up-b them and they fall to their death because they hit the stage and weren't expecting it so they don't tech like in one of Phanna's videos.

 

[Kick]

were we? well taht could work too, but ive seen a pseudo spike with the up b before where the opponent (always at high %) is pseudo spiked at a -45degree angle with respect to the horizontal.

 

[technomancer]

i disagree
anyway, imo this is a huge step in learning to combo with samus. here are a few examples i performed in the two tournaments that occurred during the last week:
vs some falcon-> when he was recovering low, i used the up+b below him so that when it finished he was even with the stage. i ledgegrabbed and immediately let go, FF'd some and used the up+b again. i FF'd into another ledgegrab, ledgehopped away from the stage into an uair, DI'd toward the stage, which throws him away from it, ledgegrabbed and repeated the whole process twice more until he was ready to die from a nair or bair.
I also did the same thing to a fox-> up+b, FF to ledgegrab and repeat until he is at the height for an uair/bair
vs any char that tried to stop me from getting up off of the ledge-> i'd ledgehop into an uair/fair, FF l-cancel it before it finished, and up+b'd before they could do anything from their CCing. it pulled them off of the ground and over the ledge, where i ledgehopped into an uair and threw them off. if they didn't go very far, i ledgegrabbed and jumped out for another round of up+b into uair.
from instage-> uair, FF, WD, up+b, to ledgegrab and if they're still not close enough for an uair, i ledgehopped to WD to up+b and pulled them even closer.

I'm anxious to see what will come of this this saturday at the next tournament/smashfest. seriously, MD/VA has something going on twice every week. its crazy. maybe i'll learn to make a vid and throw out some visual examples. samus is a beast

This sounds f'ing epic, hopefully I'll see you at UMBC/Catonsville this weekend and you can pwn my Falcon. I'm going to poke around with the UpB FF as soon as my parents get off the TV and see exactly how that works for myself; quick question though, can you smash DI out of the screw attack (hold CStick and smash a few times when caugt) to get out and punish it?

 

[Kick]

i know there is a vid of a samus (i think its dyna dash) doing it to a fox. she up-bs fox's up-b several times then just cuz shes that good, goes for the spike and gets it easily. total time taken is like 10sec.

i cant find it though, i saw it on youtube before, but its gone now.