Scott Pilgrim vs. The Mafia | GAME OVER: Infinite Sadness/Finest Hour

[#HBC | ѕoup]

i think the setup is fine and i believe town just happened to play well, yeah scum got ****ed by PRs but so what? j happened to investigate right, Bardull happened to shoot right, and Nabe did too. i don't think we should be taking away from this because from where i see it had they not then the game would have been very winnable for scum.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

okay roleblocker is a bit of a **** you i have to admit with this many PRs but it was a large setup so i don't mind

 

[#HBC | Joker]

The whole thing with the commander being able to redirect his own traitor's power, while simultaneously not knowing about a traitor and having no reason to think the stalker is on his team... Like, there's absolutely zero reason for them to ever redirect the stalker, but it's there as an option, begging to be used, just to troll the scum team. The mod shouldn't be trolling the players.

The traitor is desperately trying to find his teammates so he can join them, but the rest of the scum team has an option that blatantly scares them into stopping him. It's bad enough that he's a traitor they're unaware of, they could have wasted a NK on him. But there's this other option thrown in where they can also waste more of their actions by redirecting him for no reason.

Basically what it amounts to is that the town had a bunch of PRs, but the mafia didn't really have any. The few powers they actually had were handicapped to the point of being useless, which is what ended up happening. I get that in this particular instance, they took a lot of the worst possible options for NAs, but even if they had been near perfect with their usage, they didn't have as many options for shutting down the town as the town had for shutting them down.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I still had fun playing this game though! I don't mean to sound like a cranky pants all day. Thanks for hosting, Circus!

 

[KevinM]

i think the setup is fine and i believe town just happened to play well, yeah scum got ****ed by PRs but so what? j happened to investigate right, Bardull happened to shoot right, and Nabe did too. i don't think we should be taking away from this because from where i see it had they not then the game would have been very winnable for scum.

I don't think town played all that well tbh, that's not salt and I personally don't mind the set-up even if it's swingy.

But when I was shot I was being townread by pretty much everyone but Kary Bardull

Marshy would have coasted through D2 had it not been for the amnesiac role because town didn't have enough swing to push him guaranteed.

And Ryu wasn't being scumread by all that many players before he was shot.

I would say town played pretty poorly, but your main PRs saved the game.

I had something to say but I can't remember past that

GGs had fun

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I dunno about everyone else, but I definitely was never townreading you. You were null, and looking back I'm glad BarDulL chose to shoot you, even if you were town, because you weren't really doing much of anything.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Real talk though, BarDulL, your play was 10 kinds of whack. Why were kev and kary your strongest scumreads, and why were you so all up in my face?

 

[KevinM]

I dunno about everyone else, but I definitely was never townreading you. You were null, and looking back I'm glad BarDulL chose to shoot you, even if you were town, because you weren't really doing much of anything.

Townreading might be strong, but you guys weren't going to lynch me anytime soon nor would I have allowed one lol.

Also I like your hindsight there, I mean yeah I would love if my Vig had shot people that ended up being scum after every game also .

 

[Raziek]

I still don't understand why Bardull even got lynched. His play seemed fine to me and it seemed a result of people blowing details of his claim out of proportion.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

His claim had literally nothing to do with why we lynched him.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Also I like your hindsight there, I mean yeah I would love if my Vig had shot people that ended up being scum after every game also .

whether or not you were scum had nothing to do with why it was a good shot though. It was D3, and you were still null. That's a problem. You were vig bait.

As a VT, you're right. I wasn't gonna lynch you.

But as a vig, I prolly would've shot you.

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

Raz: The Bard lynch was stupid, but made necessary by Zen's conspiracy theory. That's all.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Bardull was practically begging us to kill him! He kept going on and on about how he was confirmed town because of the flavor of his role, and he only stopped when we made it clear that we were getting pissed about him pushing that so hard. Then he starts talking about how he wants to lynch these two guys, but he won't tell us why no matter how much we beg. Also he constantly tries to deflect attention onto me by making up a bunch of bull**** about how I hadn't done anything all game. It was, like, maximum flailage.

 

[Vinylic.]

Bardull makes mistakes, and that makes him look bad even if he's town.

That's why I didn't care what he voted for as long as he made the right kill, and he did. Nuff said.

 

[BarDulL]

This is what I remember happening the day I was lynched:

1. Zen thought I was scum for some reason (don't remember but I remember thinking it was funny in hindsight lol).

2. Ran and Kev, being scum, were like "lez get in on dis shiz."

3. Was PJB voting for me? If he was, he probably haplessly jumped on semblant to what he usually does (I'm jus' sayin'.)

4. Vinyl hammered me because Zen wanted him to?

I dropped the Gideon thing on D1 so IDK why you're bringing that up, and I also don't get why people felt that that was scummy (it wasn't, probably more so anti-town if anything since people felt it was a distraction.) I definitely shouldn't have pushed the flavor point as conclusive evidence but usually scum don't want to claim anti-flavor when claiming for obvious reasons. I felt like that was a point everyone could agree on but I guess Town was afraid of me pulling out the red instead of the chardonnay. As a side note I don't know why so many players were so untrustworthy of my claim, especially when I claimed hated vengeful 'cause doing so would more than likely put me in a position to be policy lynched anyway (which isn't what scum wants) so...ah well whatever? I mean yeah none of my claim was truly conclusive in terms of alignment but contextually I didn't feel like people should have been calling me scum from that point on.

Honestly PJB you really didn't do much of anything this game from what I can remember (no offense mang but it's true) but you've already admitted this much so IDK why you're so surprised that I "got up in your face". I probably wanted to put you in the spotlight and get a better read on you. I felt like most of your play was predominantly following tailcoats and never spear heading anything or really bringing up quality content that Town could sink their teeth into. Outside of that, you kinda just sat on your duff in your shell and played reactionary. You're not really aggressive or actively looking for clues/trying to get reactions/information on the table as Town. What made things worse was your unbearable over-the-top inability to just work with Town/not be completely stubborn on D3. You finally ended up actually engaging Nabe in productive conversation and that was when I started to look past your previous play since I was Town reading you from that point on (hence why I did not shoot you.)

I was ok with the possibility of being lynched (and tried to encourage it a bit) since I was vengeful (hence my seemingly haphazard play) which was why I was willing to throw out reads early on and later in the game that were more or less unsubstantiated from everyone else's view points as a way to get reads/feels ('cept I was right about J and marsh 'cause I've got dat meta son!). I thought about just backpedaling out and saying my would-be reads were RVS/reaction test shenanigans, but I had the impression that people might not buy into thpse excuses and I'd subsequently be put lower on the totem pole anyway since it was going to be a rough game no matter what after I began what I started. Plus, you don't tell people you're reaction testing them during the middle of the reaction test/garnering of reads, so that's why I never elaborated on the Kevmo/Kary reads. Additionally, I couldn't well substantiate the reads to be convincing at the time based on the lack of evidence (especially in Kev's case because Ruy/marsh inadvertently interacted with Kev in a way that made him not seem aligned with the main scum team.) I honestly didn't feel that marsh/ruy's interactions with kev dismissed the possibility of kev being scum with them though (or at the least indy) which is why I pursued Kev. Kev's play also really reminded me of his play in Utrick'd 3 as Indy but I didn't feel that that kind of evidence was going to help me convince everyone especially when Town was super divided.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Go back and read the game dude. D1 has me ALL OVER IT and it's more than half the pages of the game. D1's lynch happened because of me. That's not doing nothing. You, on the other hand, didn't do anything productive until you were dead.

 

[BarDulL]

Go back and read the game dude. D1 has me ALL OVER IT and it's more than half the pages of the game. D1's lynch happened because of me. That's not doing nothing. You, on the other hand, didn't do anything productive until you were dead.

Uh no thanks this game is long and done with and IDK why you're making a big fuss about something that's done and over with (especially since we won, dafuuuu?)

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Because it's really odd to me that you continue to insist that I didn't do anything in this game, when I actually did way more than most of the playerlist, yourself included. Like, I was active as ****, and I lynched 3 people.

 

[BarDulL]

Because it's really odd to me that you continue to insist that I didn't do anything in this game, when I actually did way more than most of the playerlist, yourself included.

Uh, I didn't continue to insist that you didn't do anything this game after the game was over (why would I lol?), you literally just started raising a fuss out of nowhere about me and my play. That's when I said that I didn't remember much of anything that you did this game (and that's the truth). Somewhat related note, post count =/= quality content, none of which I remember really seeing. Kinda unrelated but I don't feel that you were the main reason FML got lynched tbqh. Every scum member except Ranmaru I think was on that lynch? I mean you basically got played by scum so kudos to you if you think you got that lynch off but 4 scum members gladly helped you out.

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

Bardull was practically begging us to kill him! He kept going on and on about how he was confirmed town because of the flavor of his role, and he only stopped when we made it clear that we were getting pissed about him pushing that so hard. Then he starts talking about how he wants to lynch these two guys, but he won't tell us why no matter how much we beg. Also he constantly tries to deflect attention onto me by making up a bunch of bull**** about how I hadn't done anything all game. It was, like, maximum flailage.

Except he definitely believed what he was saying about you, and so did I.

Bard, Zen thought you had recruited me in a Gideon/Ramona love tangle.

 

[BarDulL]

Mmm, would Circus come up with something as saucy and sophisticated as a complex love union between the two long lost lovers in such sizzling of a fashion?

Yes, yes I suppose he would.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I smell one of Nabe's fanfics incoming.

 

[Kantrip]

Because it's really odd to me that you continue to insist that I didn't do anything in this game, when I actually did way more than most of the playerlist, yourself included. Like, I was active as ****, and I lynched 3 people.

This. Joker did a bunch. He was in the wrong place a lot of the time, and barking up the wrong trees, but he was still there. And he was towntelling a lot too.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Lynching Bardull was the right move imo.

 

[Circus]

For future reference (I pose this question to everyone, though I'm specifically hoping Marshy responds), how would you rebalance this setup while keeping most of the integrity of what I've got going on here? Does scum need some assistance or does town need to have some toys taken away?

I'm thinking the scum team can pretty much stay as is but, as I said, with Traitor shenangians illuminated a little better. And maybe let Julie keep the Stalking ability post-recruitment? I had thought that joining the mafia and losing the Stalk and Cop-trickery was a fair trade off (in the sense that it's a reason NOT to just join the scum team as soon as possible), but I'm open. I don't really know what I'd add, given what town already has.

Main points of contention seem to be the Amnesiac Cop as a whole, and the amount of extra killing town can do. Between the two, I find the Amnesiac Cop much more interesting, not just in terms of flavor but in terms of mechanic, so it really seems a shame to me to lose something like that. So with that in mind, maybe Ramona shouldn't have had a kill, or maybe Gideon should have been another VT? Seemed like I already had a lot of VTs for a large.

Open to thoughts. Obviously this game's never running again, but having input from others on what specifically would have felt fairer in this setup would help for the future. I still like the setup as is, but I can't rightly ignore contrasting perspectives. That's no fun.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Well, the scum team definitely needs to know that they have a traitor, and that the Stalker they are commanding is that traitor. If they choose to command him, it shouldn't force him to follow the command. Give the Stalker the option to disobey the command, and make sure the commander knows that the stalker can disobey it. It's kind of like an extremely limited communication between the traitor, and the rest of his team.

Town also doesn't need that Roleblocker, that should be all scum's imo.

The vengeful townie should probably also target the hammer vote, not whoever he feels like. Like a Bomb. Town already has a vig, they don't need another one. If he must exist, this is a little less OP.

 

[Marshmellowman]

1 joat (jail/vig/commute)
1 amnesiac cop (SCUM RECEIVES RESULT)
1 gladiator
1 roleblocker
1 voteblocker
6 vt

v

2 goons (TOLD THERE IS TRAITOR)
1 gossip (AMNESIAC COP LEARNS RESULTS IF LYNCHED)
1 traitor w/stalker

revised setup keeping the spirit of the game intact

 

[#HBC | Kary]

I want to think about this a bit more and get back to you Circus. I've got a few thoughts but they keep undermining the great flavour interactions that you have going on.

Anyways, I wanted to make sure I thanked you for modding. I thought you did a great job and I really enjoyed the game. I particularly enjoyed the flips with all of their goings-on.
so thank you

 

[Orboknown]

For future reference (I pose this question to everyone, though I'm specifically hoping Marshy responds), how would you rebalance this setup while keeping most of the integrity of what I've got going on here? Does scum need some assistance or does town need to have some toys taken away?

I'm thinking the scum team can pretty much stay as is but, as I said, with Traitor shenangians illuminated a little better. And maybe let Julie keep the Stalking ability post-recruitment? I had thought that joining the mafia and losing the Stalk and Cop-trickery was a fair trade off (in the sense that it's a reason NOT to just join the scum team as soon as possible), but I'm open. I don't really know what I'd add, given what town already has.

Main points of contention seem to be the Amnesiac Cop as a whole, and the amount of extra killing town can do. Between the two, I find the Amnesiac Cop much more interesting, not just in terms of flavor but in terms of mechanic, so it really seems a shame to me to lose something like that. So with that in mind, maybe Ramona shouldn't have had a kill, or maybe Gideon should have been another VT? Seemed like I already had a lot of VTs for a large.

Open to thoughts. Obviously this game's never running again, but having input from others on what specifically would have felt fairer in this setup would help for the future. I still like the setup as is, but I can't rightly ignore contrasting perspectives. That's no fun.

Make the traitor known to one of the scum members. Not necessarily that he's the stalker, but that he's out there.
Make one of the goons a PR/cop immune. Change what the captain is commanding maybe?
On towns side, take away one of the kills. Probably nabes, since it can be replaced with something else.
First thoughts and all.

 

[BarDulL]

I thought the set up was fine in what it sought to achieve. Personally though I've begun to seriously hate cops and favor tracker/watcher roles since they aren't as condemning or conclusive. Aside from that, I can understand players not wanting vengeful to have so much power but I don't actually see anything fundamentally wrong with the role itself as long as its accounted for in the set up. JoaT was fine but definitely packed a lot of power for just one slot? Gladiator was cool.

Scum PM can elaborate more on the traitor since it seems like a scum traitor was implied anyway via the language that was used (Stalker is not and never will be a town role gorfdamnit). Probably change up Commander role as well a bit. Will elaborate more later if need be but I think that's about it from me.