School Tournament - Quick Advice? RE: other players

[macdonaldmd]

Hi,
My school is having a SSBM tournament and I have been playing Marth for a while and have become quite well-versed in his extents and abilities, along with improving my advanced techniques ie. wave dash, SFFLs, grabs, and edge related maneuvers....

I practice with my friend who plays an amazing falco, and although it is a disadvantage I get good practice and expect to be against him in the finals (he will most likely win)...

The problems I have are the other people who I have played from my school:
They do not use these advanced techniques... ie: they do not wavedash, use SFFLs, hardly arial, but rather use cheap chain smash attacks and/or grab smash etc....

When i play play this guy in particular (another Marth) I go about my mind games, SFFLing, etc but he just rolls, rolls, rolls, dodge, dodge, grab (back smash) and edge gaurds with b or other "un-extravagent" forms of edge attacks...
Now, some may just say "if hes getting the job done, then thats all that matters"... but its almost pathetic ... this guy can ace me in like 2 minutes becuase I play rather offencively and sometimes recklessly in order to achieve the big combos.

Also, another friend i play quite frequetly is a fox who also takes no time to advance his game by improving with normal fox strategies, but rather dodges about 50 times and nails a charged up smash when he can, maybe a grab or a shine here and there... but yet, he beats me.

I know i'm better than these two examples, and it is seen through my mostly close games with a very skilled falco player, but its almost like... they aren't playing at my level so I over do it and they end up winning...

I would just hate to regress back to standard roll, smash, dodge, grab, smash.... I like how the game is meant to be played, fast paced with advanced maneuvers and combos, I like to make things look good....
I like to win with a chain grab to a double f-air, u-tilt, down smash.... but these guys would rather just spam the c-stick on the ground...

-----

How can I retain my playstyle and still destroy these kids like I am supposed to? I'm tired of losing to people who can't appreciate the true way this game is supposed to be played...

 

[thebluedeath1000]

Sir, no offense to you but you just described utter noobs, if you are losing to them, you just suck.

Pick sheik against the marth and **** him.

For the fox, upthrow chaingrab him.

that seems like it should solve all your problems at that level of play.


I can't fathom how advanced techs are losing to simple play..its not clicking in my brain.

 

[macdonaldmd]

First of all, i'm not pro or anything... but I know what i'm doing... its like, I'm good at what i'm doing (more advanced playstyle); but they're really good at what they're doing (messy, cheap, spamming playstyle)...

Its almost like the two don't comply?

Basically i just don't like to take my time against them, and i just end up SFFLing around while they dodge/roll for 40 seconds untill i mess up a SFFL and they smoke me... they're basically on invincible frames or dodging untill i clip them with a SFFLf-air or chain grab, then it all starts over agian.

I mean, I could play like them and ensure I make it to where i'm playing people at my level but I just want to retain a "style"? if you will...

 

[macdonaldmd]

The marth, you would S*** your pants over how lucky he gets, or how well he places his massive sweet spotted (c-stick) smashes.... Once i get going i tear him up but only to be killed at 30% from smash, then a crazy edge gaurd fest..... I can do all sorts of things off of the edge but they do not work against this kid.

The fox, would rather dodge for 10 minutes straight and wait for me to mess up, so I just go beserk on him and eventually screw up and get KO'd by fox's upsmash at like 98%+

 

[thebluedeath1000]

lol, no, I wouldn't, I've faced peaches who have pulled three or four stitchfaces in a row...

But it sounds to me like you aren't using your advanced techs well or in the right ways.

Learn to sweetspot against the marth.
Marth vs Marth combo: at 0% F-throw, F-throw, U-throw, U-tilt...then go from there.

For fox
f-throw, up-throw (repeat upthrow alot)...hes a noob so he will probably let it go on alot longer than it should.

 

[Bailey]

Where Do You Live?

 

[KevinM]

Pick bowser dude..

Bowser is a counter to both fox and marth i swear to god

@Bailey- I agree can we money match these people, or join the tourney?

 

[thebluedeath1000]

Do not listen to kevin, hes just good with bowser so he brainwashes himself to believe he counters them.

 

[KevinM]

Dude.. Bowser has.. THE FORTRESS

and.. he's kute

 

[thebluedeath1000]

Fox has the shine and it kills you in seconds lol since you'rw bowser...and sheik has TEH chain grab.

Besides, only you can gimpy can play bowser well, you should know that kevin

 

[KevinM]

Arash.. Gojira..

OWNED

Plus i can shine with bowser.. and my f-smash has a tipper

 

[thebluedeath1000]

and I was refering to people I know...

lol....Kevin does shine to knee combos with bowser?!

 

[KevinM]

No.. I do Shine to Kute combo's.. much more deadly... plus after that the whole crowd goes.. awww


Ok so i don't just spam the whole time..

Honestly if your fighting n00bs with Marth, your going to win, they shouldn't be a problem.

The fox is chaingrab hell since he won't know an ounce of DI and will be really predictable, you should have a fieldday with him.. when he charges his smashes, wavedash back and punish with a tipper.. that match is easy..

As for the marth, just keep your spacing, and attack with better options, if you pulsewalk him i guarantee you will get so many whiffs on the F-smash

 

[thebluedeath1000]

Yeah, dashdance well to make him attack then punish..you really should win so I don't know how you are losing..

 

[Strider.Mars]

Something similar happens(ed) to me when i play my friends. They dont use advanced techs and im trying to be all cool and fancy and theywind up taking the 1st stock. after i stopped trying to push certain techniques and just take them seriously, i did fine. you should just play them seriously and watch how they play. don't do crap just to look cool.

 

[thebluedeath1000]

Advanced techs should be effective, not just cool looking...remember that!

 

[KevinM]

A brief diagram of pulsewalking a noob

 

[thebluedeath1000]

lol kevin, you regained your points!

That drawing should be all you need to win. ( I was wondering why you took so long to post kevin lol)

 

[KevinM]

Yea i'm a paint picasso

 

[thebluedeath1000]

Just do that opening marth combo and if hes really that noob-ish..he'll lose a stock almost instantly each time.

wavedash f-smashes should rock him if hes so much of a noob...or just pick sheik..

 

[Silver Sytos]

Guys, we're assuming he wants to stay as marth.

That said, you have to be offensive, but not stuipidly so. Use forward smashes, if they block then grab. I notice when I'm playing noob and doing dashy stuff like around their shield they just a laggy attack that somehow hits me. It's really annoying. I guess treat them like lv. 9 computers.

 

[Brightside6382]

I find it very funny that you are calling these people noobs and saying they use cheap, scrub tactics when you can't even beat them yourself. The first step to beating these people is realizing they are better then you. It doesn't matter if you can WD or SHFFL if you don't even know how to apply it.

 

[KevinM]

That whole post above me should be quoted for truth.. if their consistently beating you, they're better

 

[Dark Sonic]

Have you ever just tried camping. You don't need to run into that smash you know. Another great thing to do to them is show what happens to a Marth that doesn't DI. F-throw chaingrab to F-Smash. Chainthrow the foxes and falcos. Most n00bs like to spam the kill moves so it's extremely easy to punish them in thier lag.

BTW Marth vs. Falco is a very close match. I've seen it argued in favor of either side, but I think it's an even match.

 

[Driz]

You seem to have my problem when I first started learning techs that they would not fall into my shffls because they would move away witha roll or full jump ariel. What I would say is wavedash alot because you can wavedash back as a mindgame and catch them with lag for a nice fsmash. Or just be more patient against people wo don't know adv. stuff just wait till you see the time for your techs to work don't force them or they wont work and fsmashes on the ground own anynoob just realize that its a strategy and you should be able to regress a little to win depending on who your playing and how they are.

 

[xelad1]

That whole post above me should be quoted for truth.. if their consistently beating you, they're better

I completely disagree with this. I read something that made me laugh in the first post which is that you go about using "mindgames". A lot of people after learning advanced tactics and the more deep aspects of competitive smash have a shocking wake up call when the noob next door comes around and whoops their but. This has happened to MANY cocky smashers, so do not despair.

Believe it or not you need to completely tone down your game against noobs. The way you play against noobs is not the same way you play against experienced/knowledgeable players. Let me give you an example. My friend plays sheik, and out of the three of us that played smash back in highschool he was always the worst (this was when we were all noob status, I mean I would just f smash with falco all across fd and he would try and needle me from far away). I would pretty much be able to 3-4 stock him consistently. Almost two years ago I started learning advanced tactics, and eventually I got comfortable with them. But now for some reason I was drawing even with this guy or losing to him on occassion.

It wasn't because he was getting better (he rarely played smash) but rather because I made a few critical mistakes that many people make against noobs which shock and surprise them which I shall outline here:

You overestimate/underestimate your opponent severely. Now your wonder "hey xelad wtf does that mean how can you do both?". You overestimate noobs in the sense that you think that they require these complex mindgames, such as dash dancing, fake outs etc.... when they DON'T. Noobs do the same predictable patterns over and over, they shield the same things, tech the same way, roll a lot etc.... You spend all this time setting up a long fancy combo when really an F-smash will do, seriously. Noobs fall prey to a lot of things, two of the biggest being their tendancy to roll and dodge a lot which becomes very predictable and punishable, and their easiness to get shield grabbed ALL THE TIME.

Against noobs you actually need to play defensively, and just sit back and wait for them to make mistakes... its actually much easier than trying to out think your opponent, but you just haven't learned to expect their stupid behavior, I mean who expects someone to do something as stupid as roll like 5 times in a row, or dmash three times? No one, and that's why sometimes doing stupid stuff like that throws off experienced players in matches.

You underestimate these guys because you think oh they are just noobs, I can whoop them easily. So you play against them like lvl. 1 computers forgetting that THEY FIGHT BACK. You'll go in trying to set up this pretty ken combo only to get f smashed in the face... "whoah holy **** this computer actually attacks me!".

Your problem is that you are stuck in a cookie cutter way of playing. What "mindgames" refers to (though this is such a comonly misused and broad term nowadays) is really picking up on your opponents patterns, and abusing them, getting your opponent to do something (like a simple wavedash back f smash as a fakeout qualifies as a "mindgame"), and creating openings for yourself to set up for what you want... a grab a smash whatever, but figuring out a way to achieve that goal. Noobs are not at the "mindgame" level, noobs are at the level where they are very punishable for all their mistakes, which they make a lot of. Think about it, do you punish "good" opponents when they mess up their techskill, an l cancell, misspaced aerial etc? The same goes for noobs except now you can do it 100 times more since they suck.

Every noob smash is waiting to be grabbed, every roll/dodge is waiting to be smashed, you don't need to outthink them they do the work for you trust me. So seriously just sit back and play "cheap".

 

[Bailey]

Where The Fvck Do You Live!?!

 

[UMBC Super Smasher]

Pick up on what the people are doing, whether it be rolling a lot or whatever and punish it (if you're a slightly decent player then you should know how). Capitalize on all of your opponent's mistakes all the time. They are too stubborn to care to change their playing style, so change yours and **** their ****.

Good luck.

 

[Brightside6382]

Please Xelad1 explain how someone beating you consistently doesn't prove they are in someway better. His failure to adapt is why he is losing, it doesn't matter if he can WD, SHFFL and do all that crap. He is still a noob himself if he doesn't know how to apply it in a real game.

 

[thebluedeath1000]

I agree with brightside and kevin, its the only logical answer as to losing to scrubs who have no advance techs.

 

[ArcNatural]

I think Xelad1 said it perfectly. While he may play better technically against better players he doesn't have the skill to understand how to capitalize on weaker players mistakes. Knowing how to manipulate opponents is the key to becoming a better player, technical skills can only take you so far.

That being said, I can easily see a Marth who just c-sticks easily beat a Marth who constantly rushes in with aerials and grabs. Because your not thinking at all.

 

[Nick Nasty]

If they're not using any advance techniques then you are already fast enough to just sit back and wait to predict what they are going to do.

 

[JesiahTEG]

Yeah dude, if I were you, here's what I would do.

You said you know about advanced techniques, so you know what Dash Dancing is. Dash Dance just out of range of your opponent's sword. According to you, he will either Forward Smash or Roll. If he Forward smashes, and you are Dash Dancing out of his range, he will miss and you will be mobile and you should be able to run in and grab him while he's still in the lag from the Forward Smash. When you grab him, you can do one of two things.

1.Up Throw, then Up tilt
2.I recommend this, because I don't think your opponents know about DI (Directional Influence) Forward throw them, then Forward smash. It will work on noobs, and it will **** noobs. Do it.

Another thing you want to do if you get a grab off is just throw them off the edge and edge guard. Marth is gay. Marth's edgeguarding is gayer. Use it.

Or what you can do is chain 3-4 SHDF's across the stage, grab them and fthrow them, follow their tech, Uthrow expecting them to DI forwards in fear of Fthrow-Fsmash, and Ken combo.

Or you could stick with my first piece of advice.

 

[Imperial Wraith]

All that Brightside said, QFT. If they consistantly beat you, it stands to reason that they're better than you.

Offtopic: Thebluedeath100, are you jaigoda from Gwonline?

 

[Cactuar]

I mean.... crouch cancel stuff.

Also, shield things. Into wavedash. Into grab.

Also, tilts.



Seriously though, if they approach you by air, just hold down and take the hit. Most scrubs don't understand using dair with Marth. If they spam fsmash a lot, just run straight at them and shield. You will slide into the fsmash with your shield, and then you can wd out of the shield into a grab. Tilts are just awesome all around vs scrubs as they don't know how to DI utilt, get shield stabbed often by dtilt, and ftilt is a great move for pressuring as it's less laggy than say an fsmash.

Also, the creator of this thread hasn't responded since the first page.

 

[thebluedeath1000]

I guess we just got carried away..and to imperial wrath, no, I'm Jade, no jaigoda

 

[macdonaldmd]

uhh I live in Halfax, Nova Scotia, Canada... I doubt anyone could sign up because it's a school tourny >_>... me and my friend (the falco) plan to just **** the whole thing

 

[Imperial Wraith]

Ah oke, thanks very much . I was just wondering, bluedeath.

 

[thebluedeath1000]

No problem..and the topic creator better win after all the things we said!

 

[macdonaldmd]

Yeha lol, thanks for all the advice (and criticizm)... I just tried some pretty basic grab smash and dashdancing crap on some level 9s >_> .. worked out descent, I guess I'll just stay concervative untill i get to the finals...
I'll post the results tomorrow.. unless it gets moved again.

Also:
Against a marth ditto, is it better to charge in and jump cancell or like wavedash around / dash dance and catch them off guard?

Should combos against the marth ditto be started with a SFFL F-air (ie: double f-air + down smash) or with a grab?

I have been finding something like f-throw, dash attack, D-air is pretty controlling