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School Tournament - Quick Advice? RE: other players

TedBoosley

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 19, 2006
Messages
657
Location
Orlando, Florida
I think your problem is you're trying to boil the match-ups down to a science, but that really isn't how you should be looking at it. You need to go with the flow of the game, and I don't think you're quite realizing that (or you're not experienced enough to understand how to do that).

That being said, MookieRah made a great post in Melee Discussion about watching your opponent instead of yourself. Go look it up.
 

thebluedeath1000

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 14, 2006
Messages
2,348
Location
N.C, Bladenboro
F-throw, dash attack, d-air? NO

Depends on the % but as I said, at 0
F-throw, F-throw, F-throw then either f-smash or up-throw..

they probably have horrible di so the f-throw to f-smash will work alot and then just edgeguard.

and never double f-air into d-smash...d-smash isn't that great unless you really need to kill off the top or are panicing..double fair into f-smash if anything.
 

Randizzle

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 9, 2004
Messages
744
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
if you're playing noob marths, the fthrow does wonders. Chances are they'll DI it wrong and you'll be able to chain grab them with fthrow until they get to an edge, at which point you can fsmash. The problem is, don't get too much into the habit of this because it does NOT work against people that actually know how to play.

The playing style of casual players often seem weird to people that know advanced techniques so people that think they're good are often completely taken by surprise by casual players simply because of how differently they play. Basically, you're trying too hard to just play a better technical game than your opponents. As mentioned, play defensively and punish them for their "noob" tactics. If you have an edge on technical ability, use it, but be smart about it. Wavedancing yourself into a tipper isn't going to do you much good.
 

xelad1

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 13, 2005
Messages
763
Please Xelad1 explain how someone beating you consistently doesn't prove they are in someway better. His failure to adapt is why he is losing, it doesn't matter if he can WD, SHFFL and do all that crap. He is still a noob himself if he doesn't know how to apply it in a real game.
Beacause we have already assessed that he CAN apply it in a real game against "better" players than the noobs he is loosing to. His frustration comes from the fact that he focuses too much on his techskill, and loses sight of the big picture of winning. Like I ALREADY explained I had this problem myself when I was trying to encorporate advanced techs into my game with a friend who was already decidedly much worse than me.

Lets say he can go even with another advanced player, but that advanced player stomps all over these noobs. How would you explain that? I wasn't saying he wasn't failing to adapt properly to the situation, but them beating him doesn't make them better, it just means that he isn't recognizing the situation at hand and playing in a proper conservative manner. I mean look at his post he said himself that he tries to set up for big combos and all this unnecessary stuff to look good, but it doesn't win him matches... he practically answered his own problem. I'm sure he would find very fast if he sat back and smashed all day and wavedashed in and out of range he would probably be 4 stocking his opponents, so he probably inherently is better but isn't using the tools at his disposal. You can't just use deductive logic for everything and say oh they beat him so therefor they must be better, that doesn't include all the many other variables in the situation its a very basic oversimplifaction. Is that a good enough explanation for you?
 

macdonaldmd

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 15, 2007
Messages
12
I appreciate all of this, and I guess its just allowing me to solve my own problem by talking about it, I guess just basically I would like to win USING advanced techs... me and my friend (falco) have advanced in this way much further than anyone I have seen play in my area... (maybe we all just suck... except my friend is amazing >_>)

Maybe its the fact that I play a crazy falco all of the time and am used to being in the air, or having to dodge lasers all of time time? I havn't played a solid match against someone using advanced techs other than a falco ... :S

Meh, I guess like many have said, I just don't know how to impliment my advanced techs properly... I just dont have a variety of opponenets at my level i suppose :O

I try to practice against lvl 9s but that gets either annoying or boring extremely fast, but I do practice well and have learned many things from this.
Any ideas for practicing without a descent person to play?

---

I am also quite descent with shiek, and to a lesser extent fox/falco... but would not feel comfortable using any in a tournament :S
 

KevinM

TB12 TB12 TB12
BRoomer
Joined
Jan 30, 2007
Messages
13,625
Location
Sickboi in the 401
Xelad, look i understand what your trying to say, but honestly if you get consistently beat by someone, even if your technically better, at that point they counter you better and are considered better in the match-up..

If all you did was roll (though i know your better then that) and used smash-attacks, and here i am wavedashing but getting beat.. your at this point better then me match-up wise, technically wise i would have been miles away, but it doesn't matter because i can't apply it to beat you..

See what i'm saying

My paint picture is full of win
 

cablepuff

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 19, 2004
Messages
608
i think xeald1 already posted what i said.. but i am going to say this.. tactics and strategy (is imho more important than tech skills but i know few nonscrubs that would agree with me on this.. tech skills (L-cancel, sh, percision, timing) is the beginning (not the end all of be all) but the beginning to be great smasher)....

For people who like to roll.. do what my friend does (he uses both marth and sheik)..is follow their roll and grab.... or if they roll and like to forward smash.. just run up to them and shield. Thats how i learn to stop rolling... just run up and shield in front of them.. (but not to close) or dash dance grab, try not to jump, that way you can follow their roll and grab them... or if they forward smash.. do whats next... shield wavedash a forward smash into grab... thats it... do just that... no need to get fancy.. and your applying your "tech skills"..
 

Brightside6382

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 27, 2006
Messages
1,538
Location
Skokie, IL
Beacause we have already assessed that he CAN apply it in a real game against "better" players than the noobs he is loosing to. His frustration comes from the fact that he focuses too much on his techskill, and loses sight of the big picture of winning. Like I ALREADY explained I had this problem myself when I was trying to encorporate advanced techs into my game with a friend who was already decidedly much worse than me.

Lets say he can go even with another advanced player, but that advanced player stomps all over these noobs. How would you explain that? I wasn't saying he wasn't failing to adapt properly to the situation, but them beating him doesn't make them better, it just means that he isn't recognizing the situation at hand and playing in a proper conservative manner. I mean look at his post he said himself that he tries to set up for big combos and all this unnecessary stuff to look good, but it doesn't win him matches... he practically answered his own problem. I'm sure he would find very fast if he sat back and smashed all day and wavedashed in and out of range he would probably be 4 stocking his opponents, so he probably inherently is better but isn't using the tools at his disposal. You can't just use deductive logic for everything and say oh they beat him so therefor they must be better, that doesn't include all the many other variables in the situation its a very basic oversimplifaction. Is that a good enough explanation for you?
How have we assessed at ALL that he is able to apply his tech skill in a real game. Because the creator said he does good against his friend who is an "amazing" Falco? The fact that he losses to these so called "noob" players is all the proof I need to know that he doesn't know how to properly apply anything.

Techskill doesn't = skill. If his opponent can constantly beat him with the same crap over and over it just proves that they are better cause he cant adapt for crap. Adapting is one of the biggest aspects in this game, like I said before since he can't it shows how little he really knows.

Seems like all your doing is making Johns for why you are losing. "Im losing cause Im over applying my techskill. Instead of trying something different imma do the same thing over and over and just blame his lack of skill instead of my own."
 

xelad1

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 13, 2005
Messages
763
TECHSKILL DOESN'T= SKILL HOLY GOD****ING************!!!

I'm basing this off the fact that this is something that many smashers experience on their road to improving their game because they don't approach the noob in the same manner. All you are doing is calling the guy a noob and yelling at him for calling the other people noobs, why are you even posting in this thread... that doesn't sound constructive to me. "I'm losing because I'm over applying my techskill" shouldn't be considered a john its basically the answer right there. I know I'm making assumptions, but those are based on similar scenarios, which are usually "I can beat this guy who can beat those noobs easily, so why do I loose to the noobs?". It doesn't make sense to say he is worse than the noobs if you can match up against someone who can **** their faces.

It is possible to lose to someone and not be worse than them.
 

Frozenserpent

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 6, 2006
Messages
394
Location
Saratoga, CA
The whole point of telling him that he is worse than the people he lose to is to set his mentality about the game. You have to understand, the only evidence that speaks about who's better against each other is who wins. Nothing else. Once we accept that, we can begin to seriously focus on what is causing us to lose. If you think, "well, i'm just overapplying my tech skill, so i actually am better than him", then you are only undermining your own focus on getting better, because you aren't actually exploring why you lost. You always have the idea of "well, in reality, i'm still better" to fall back on.
In order to get better at smash, or nearly anything in general, you need to discard such a mentality. You know that you have better tech skill. You know you can play decently. So you must examine closely why exactly you aren't owning these "noobs". Maybe you are becoming sloppy, and running into their smashes everytime. Actually look at your opponent. If he is being predictable, punish him. You have more tools available to you.
The topic creator talks about how he doesn't want to play "noob" style, but I find this sort of mentality to be poor for competition. You don't get extra points for being flashy, or to do combos. Consider two marths. One of them can do combos, wavedash, and do all kinds of fancy stuff, but does poorly in real matches. The other marth just stands there and fsmash. But the second marth always does better in matches. The second marth is definitely better, then, even if he doesn't wavedash, or dashdance, or shuffl. If he just sits there and fsmash, and succeed, he is a good player. the other player who can combo but doesn't succeed, is a garbage player. Unfortunately, the garbage player will think to himself that he is better than the fsmashing marth, and this blinds from actually focusing on what matters.

Of course, i'm not saying the people at your school are good players. They aren't. However, if they beat you, it does go to show that you have some serious issues to work out with. From personal experience, many people go through this phase, where they focus on technical skill, but do not play well.
Unfortunately, this sort of skill doesn't come from playing computers, and you need to play other players. Next time you play, don't attack or be aggressive. Just get just within fsmash range, and observe what the player does. Don't just run in with a shuffle. If they are rollilng, just try walking up to them, and see if they roll, and which direction. Next time, if they have these bad habits, just walk up, and fsmash accordingly, or run up and grab, and perform a combo.
 

xelad1

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 13, 2005
Messages
763
eh i think at this point we're all just reiterating the same thing but just wording it differently. The only difference in opinion here is really whether or not he is actually "better" than his opponents and is handicapping himself, or if his opponents are better than him.

I think we all agree he needs to back off from focusing on his tech skill though to applying, smart strategies for dealing with people..... go read MookieRah's thread on observation, I think your problems stems from this: you focus so much on your own tech skill that you don't bother looking on what your opponent is actually doing, probably a bad habit picked up from practicing on lvl 1s.
 

KevinM

TB12 TB12 TB12
BRoomer
Joined
Jan 30, 2007
Messages
13,625
Location
Sickboi in the 401
NO XELAD YOUR THE ONE THATS WRONG... oh wait your right all we have done is reiterate things :chuckle:

Honestly, just follow the advice that we gave you and ignore the rest of the random quarreling :)
 

xelad1

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 13, 2005
Messages
763
NO XELAD YOUR THE ONE THATS WRONG... oh wait your right all we have done is reiterate things :chuckle:

Honestly, just follow the advice that we gave you and ignore the rest of the random quarreling :)
OMG HOW DARE YOU UR WRONG YOU BIG DOO DOO HEAD ARGH!
 

KevinM

TB12 TB12 TB12
BRoomer
Joined
Jan 30, 2007
Messages
13,625
Location
Sickboi in the 401
*throws a baby tantrum*

I'm surprised this thread hasn't been closed yet, we answered his question..

So hows everyone day going?
 

xelad1

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 13, 2005
Messages
763
just finished a term paper but finals are coming up so I'm stressed :( thats why I yelled at you Kevin, I didn't mean to hurt your achey breaky heart.
 
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