Sandbagging and Honorable/dishonorable playing

[_kSo_]

This thread was originall "Different Levels of Scrubiness" however it has later transformed into a different type of thread. I've decided to include that up here.

Discuss sandbagging and whether you think it is insulting to the opponent or not.
Discuss honorable/dishonorable playing styles and what each means.
ie. throwing a link off the side 5 times ftw, edge guarding nonstop, etc.

Original post:
The Call of the Scrub

What to expect from different level scrubs

Nub - Just picked up the game, barely knows the controls, basically button mashing. Typically you will see these players use tilt moves when attempting to do smash moves as well as not doing a second upb after getting hit (even at low %'s)

Noob - Knows the game basics, can do smash moves 50% when they want to, typically use samus or kirby. Thinks kirby is awesome because he can fly back from anywhere and land on people with a strong rock attack. Thinks samus is awesome because of her charge shot and her monstrous second jump. Oh and thinks spamming upb is good with samus as well

Ametuer - Can do smash moves typically whenever they deem necessary, typically all the time. Still thinks kirby is amazing but this time because his dair is a "OHKO." At this stage, may also realize that grab whoring is a great tactic, thus ruling out the use of link or samus, even. Will spam upb with captain falcon, thinking it is a good throw move.

Scrub - Starts grab whoring and rolling all the time and gets somewhat good at edgeguarding, and thinks they are really good. However, still has zero mind games and can easily be beaten with DD grab.



Also refer to Valoem's guide "The full Smash 64 learning curve" here

!NOTE:!This guide was made as a prefix/summary to Valoem's guide. his guide provides a technical standpoint while mine will give a short and easy explanation while still providing examples.

 

[cmasterchoe]

hahahahaahaha, there's also a SCROOB who could never pull off fsmashes so he decided to grab ALL THE TIME.

 

[_kSo_]

haha nice, thats quite a word. scroob. lol

 

[Zantetsu]

Whats with u and font/color stuff kso...

Nice guide btw XD

 

[_kSo_]

I like making things look purdy

oh and thanks

 

[RedYoshi92]

lol @ SCROOB.Never knew that there were different levels of "scrubbiness".

edit:unfortunately Spokane is full of scrubs at ssb64 that think their professional and when you see them play they play completely noobish.

 

[yoshi_fan]

Europe is full of scroobs... adn worse

Sadly, i suck and i cant beat them... they run just too much...

 

[greenblob]

Hm... I've always defined "scrub" as independent of skill/potential, but rather by attitude. A scrub is someone who believes in playing "honorably" or thinks that some tactics are "cheap," as opposed to "noob," who is someone who isn't good at the game.

 

[bjdavis420]

Well now I have to disagree that playing honorably is not necessarily a scrub move. When I play links, even a great link that is dominating me, i will still try not to just use a pika bthrow or ness throw ftw. Now i dont think that legitimate combos are cheap, but I still try and shy away from certain ways of play because i mean honestly, how much are you improving your game by simply trying to throw a link at 60 damage because u know he cant get back. If it were in a tourny or a money match, then yeah, just go for the win. But I dont think that trying to beat a link by something besides a throw, or just using pikas fsmash as an edgeguard is scrub mentality.

 

[M3tr01D]

IMO not playing to win is insulting the person you're playing against. By choosing not to do backthrows or edge guards, you're showing them that you don't take them seriously, and they aren't worth you playing your best. Doing anything other then how you'd play for huge amounts of cash is rude I think.

 

[Nephiros]

Well even then, surely you have limits too. Would you do the DK grab combo until KO in hyrule five time in a row if you had the opportunity in a friendly online match?

 

[bjdavis420]

Thanks Nephiros, thats more along the lines what I mean. Personally, i would rather get a better looking, more skilled kill anyways. Who the hell cares if you throw somebody at 120 damage with ness, i mean good for you, you grabbed them, congrats. I mean obviously if you are just toying with them, then thats rude (but can be funny), but a lot of the time i would rather practice my bair or uair with pika, instead of just sittin near edge, using fsmash (i use pika as an example b/c bthrow -> fsmash edgeguard is pretty standard noob pika play). Its not that you are playing to lose, its just maybe you are trying to win with a little finesse and class, rather than a boring old throw. Im just making the argument that "honorable" play does not equal scrub mentality, atleast in the way i define honorable. If someone said that throwin in general is dishonorable, then thats just stupid.

 

[M3tr01D]

Well even then, surely you have limits too. Would you do the DK grab combo until KO in hyrule five time in a row if you had the opportunity in a friendly online match?

Part of why I don't really play DK that often. I don't mind playing a different style but just plain NOT getting a kill when you should've had one (by doing stuff like just not edge guarding at all) isn't "honorable" or anything like that, it's just insulting.

 

[Fireblaster]

Well even then, surely you have limits too. Would you do the DK grab combo until KO in hyrule five time in a row if you had the opportunity in a friendly online match?

Yes, I would. If I played DK and knew how to do that, I'd do it all 5 lives. No need to actually bother doing anything else. I mean, if they can't even counter a silly throw trap, why the hell should I actually try anything else against them? (This is assuming I play DK).

 

[Nephiros]

Yea well I understand your opinion and respect it, Met. I think differently, tho (:

I guess we could also make a more concrete comparaison about the honor thing, by going back a bit in time. Who had more honor, a samurai trained in swordmanship defending his traditions, or a guy with a gun just pointing at the samurai who pulls the trigger twenty meters away?
I mean that's not even what I call a fight now, is it?

Of course it can be hard to apply that directly to the whole "scrub or not" aspect of smash, but you get the point.

 

[Zelda_Fan_]

IMO not playing to win is insulting the person you're playing against. By choosing not to do backthrows or edge guards, you're showing them that you don't take them seriously, and they aren't worth you playing your best. Doing anything other then how you'd play for huge amounts of cash is rude I think.

How about, it's a game. hahhahah

I choose to play Link, and having a bad recovery is one of the burdens of using him. I take advantage of other character's disadvantages, and I don't recall ever asking to not throw ftw.

And I think "scrub" on this list is basically a level 3.1, so there's a huge gap and this isn't a real prefix to the thread, but it intertwines.

 

[_kSo_]

How about, it's a game. hahhahah...

NEVER, EVER say that. it's never about just the game...its a fcking way of life man

hmm perhaps I should change the title of this to reflect the current disscussion: sandbagging and playing honorably?

 

[bjdavis420]

Im not saying to not throw links ftw, its just my personal style that I would rather try and kill a link anyway BESIDES a throw. Its not that I do not use throws when i have an enemy at high damage (b/c i will still throw someone), but many newb players will wait for you to get a certain damage, and then they will ONLY go for the throw. I think that people may also be working with different definitions of "honorable" play. To me, the ness throw spammers, who might get 1 or 2 kills in the match, they play dishonorably (but then again, they probably cant help it b/c they dont know advanced techs with him). The pikas who throw u off edge, and then just fsmash edge guard, I think that is dishonorable play as well. Yeah it works (to an extent), great, but you are not going to improve your other skills by relying on this. Fox's shine to me is honorable IMO b/c it is hard to pull off, and not nearly as devastating as shinedashing in ssbm. And lets be honest here, how many lives have we all lost (all those who play fox) because on your opponents last life, you REALLY wanted was the shine ftw. So yeah... do what you want, but I think that there is definetly honorable and dishonorable play, but playing either way does not automatically make you have "scrub" mentality.

 

[cmasterchoe]

Whether you are "honorable" or "dishonorable" matters very little and the reason i say this is because not everyone is going to share your sense of honor, whether it be tournaments or just online play. Where i draw the line is if you start using autofire or some sort of non-game-built-in method to your advantage. Everybody has the same game, same control scheme, etc. If I get thrown off and then pika fsmashed to oblivion, I only have myself to fault for getting thrown off in the first place.

If i'm sparring against someone who i enjoy playing with and its not a serious game or anything, i'll let them come back so we can resume sparring, but there's no honor in that.
I propose that its more a matter of style. Does jumping off and shine-cancelling or spiking with falcon produce a more satisfying kill? YES, does fsmashing with pika still get the job done? YES. *shrugs*

I still hate scroobs.

 

[_kSo_]

That's very true. if you get thrown off the side by a pika and then fsmash edge guarded -> 2 things

you shoulda DI'ed
you shouldn't have gotten thrown in the first place

there's no like rule saying that it's frowned upon to do something like that. I don't know why people say that. In fact i played someone online who was like "let me back on. if you hit me while i'm off the edge, it's really cheap." and i said "dude it's part of the game" and he was like "yo stop being so fcking cheap".

word. death to scroobs (combinations of noob + scrub. A person who has absolutely no clue about the game, yet still complains a lot and thinks that their way of playing is the best.)

 

[bjdavis420]

I agree with what yall are saying, and im NOT saying that its cheap to use pikas fsmash for edgeguard, by all means, electrocute to your hearts content. I have a friend, and thats all he uses on edge guard (hes not that good, just annoying). But, I have grown to hate the move so much, that i wont use it, unless absolutely necessary. I wasnt saying that it was frowned upon by the "smash" community, I was simply saying that for me, I dont like that method of edgeguarding so i usually dont use it. What I was arguing is that I don't believe that because i choose not to use some of the "cheaper" moves (all based on opinion of course) that I have a "scrub" mentality. Yes, it is true that a win is a win, but a 12% double shine kill, or a falcon punch, or a jiggly uthrow, uair, dair,utilt, rest is just SO much more satisfying, that if i am up in a match, i will lose a life, just to get that great last kill in. I guess i just try to incorporate a little more "flare" in my game .. And some of you guys, yeah, you might have the mandatory 15 pieces, but you could try and be like kso. How many pieces do you have?


But yeah, FU** scroobs man.

 

[yoshi_fan]

Dishonorable?

Kirby-> smash smash smash smash smash (off the edge) dair
Ness -> run attack (if shield, it grabs you), spike, if he cant, grab and spike, grab and spike

These two camping near the edge.

Pika -> run run run run, attack, bair die, run run, throw attac attck usmash thunder die... throw, fsmash, fsmash, fsmash, fsmash die... (this isn't the worst, rly)
Link -> throw bumeran throws bomb, roll throw bumeran throw bomb roll throw bumeran throw bomb roll x 1000000 (at 200%) attack you; you DIE
C.falcon -> grab uair uair uair uair upb die, grab fair uair uair uair uair upb, die
Fox -> nothing to say here, his playstyle is all of all (maybe a bit with grabbing and dsmashing in the edge... but nothing important)
Luigi -> run, dair upb, run dair upb, run dair, upb, run dair upb, run...
Jigly -> dair util rest , run dair utilt rest, run dair utilt rest (hopefully, jiglys are soft, so they cant camp and nothing and hast to play fair)
Samus -> downb x 100 beam charged, dair dair dair dair dair and beam, or the same and bair...
Yoshi -> utilt,dair,utilt, dair, utilt, dair, usmash, die...
Mario-> Spamming fireballs running (like to collete's torrential paraballs (its better calling spamming paraballs... but whateer) usmash die. near the edge camp throwing fireball, throws you off the edge, then iot throws you x 100 or do dsmash x 100

These are dishonorable, the rest are honorable 8-)

 

[SheerMadness]

I think I'm a scrub, possibly an ameteur.

 

[jayrico]

I really do not find any moves to be dishonorable. I use to complain that my friends wait, roll and throw too much but I know it's part of the game and there is nothing dishonorable about it and that it is just boring play style.

Dishonorable?

Yoshi -> nothing here

How can you call the moves you listed dishonorable but not mention Yoshi's utilt dair combo, which is a pretty easy move but yet damaging combo.

 

[Volrec]

I play a dishonorable Fox. I throw them away from the edge and only edgeguard if 2 fairs are involved

My Jiggly is dishonorable also. At the edge, I just do some combo sht.

 

[yoshi_fan]

I really do not find any moves to be dishonorable. I use to complain that my friends wait, roll and throw too much but I know it's part of the game and there is nothing dishonorable about it and that it is just boring play style.



How can you call the moves you listed dishonorable but not mention Yoshi's utilt dair combo, which is a pretty easy move but yet damaging combo.

OMG yeah, i forgot it *editing*

 

[_kSo_]

What do you mean by "pieces?"

Captain falcon has no dishonorable moves. In fact I don't think anything in the game is dishonorable except a camping kirby who does nothing but utilt. thats pretty stupid. but theres a way aroudn it so maybe it wont be considered dishonorable

 

[Nintendude]

I think sandbagging is dishonorable but there are exceptions. For example, if you are sandbagging by trying to edgeguard with Falcon Punch in order to have fun, I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

 

[greenblob]

Well, I hate it when people don't try their best against me. OK, you're better than me, I get it. You don't have to rub it in by sandbagging. If you don't want to play someone at a lower skill level, just tell me.

 

[m3gav01t]

i sandbag because it's difficult for me to play everyone the way i play high level players. it just doesn't work, because lower level players don't do the things you expect from high level, so sometimes it just throws me off, and it's not completely intentional sandbagging, but i still do. also, it's very stressful to play the way you play when you're in the finals of a tournament all the time. it's nice to just play relaxed and experiment with new ideas. also, at least when i sandbag, i don't do **** as obviously as not back throwing or edgeguarding. i do things that the opponent doesn't even notice, like going for flashier combos even if i know there's a greater likelihood i'll screw up and i could have just easily killed them with another combo, or something like just moving differently, or not fastfalling all my moves even though i should. i've never had anyone complain about me sandbagging before. granted, i don't play online, so i only really get to play people other than valoem and sometimes kso, at tournaments. however, i've even sandbagged valoem on a couple occasions without him realizing it, not because i don't respect him as a high level player, but because i was tired.

i don't mean for this to be disrespectful and i don't think it should be perceived as such. however, there is a type of sandbagging that i could see as being hugely disrespectful, like not edgeguarding and what not. i even would find edgeguarding with falcon punch fairly disrespectful, nintendude. at least make it a falcon kick.

 

[epidiOn]

What's the point of saying a certain style of play is "dishonorable"? The best player in the world wins the most and wins efficiently. If a throw will kill someone, why would you not do it? Unless you're toying with someone, there's no reason to not do the cheapest, easiest, most efficient, least risky attack.

In StarCraft/WarCraft they call it cheese. A risky rush, strategy or gamble. There's no point discussing "bad manner play" because if it works, people will do it, and you should too.

[sarcasm]
Fox's lasers are noob. Don't use them or you're BM. Falcon's uair and usmash are bm as well. In fact, just don't beat me in a game or you're bm.[/sarcasm]

Just adapt to it instead of deeming it dishonorable. Sure, an opponent's strategy can be annoying, but that's just a compliment to them because it means they're doing something right.

What's sandbagging?

 

[Gea]

Sandbagging is not DIing or really trying against your opponent. Alot of pros do this against people that aren't as good as they are. The argument is the people not as good need ot want to get owned with full force, thus they can see how good they really are.

 

[jayrico]

What's the point of saying a certain style of play is "dishonorable"? The best player in the world wins the most and wins efficiently. If a throw will kill someone, why would you not do it? Unless you're toying with someone, there's no reason to not do the cheapest, easiest, most efficient, least risky attack.

I think toying with an inferior player is a little bit dishonorable. Some players will keep you alive just to toy with you and humiliate you so they can inflate their ego.

 

[bjdavis420]

I would say that no single move in the game is dishonorable, but you could label certain play styles as dishonorable. Personally, I don't think that they are dishonorable (its just not the correct word choice), but I think that most of the styles that are deemed dishonorable are more scrub/noobish types of play. This type of play usually involves few combos, except maybe tilts, and spam throws. The reason that some people may deem this as dishonorable, is because a lot of these players do not TRY to improve their game. They still camp around edges, hoping for a ness grab, or waiting for a kirby/ness utilt, etc. Instead of trying to learn from players that are better than them, they just simply try to lure you to an edge. Now yes, I understand that mind games are also involved, but TRULY good smashers do not camp around edges, trying to "mind game" you into running into the edge
(Note: they may go to an edge and hope u follow, this is a true mind game, but they will not just STAY PUT by the edge).
The reason I get angry with these scrub players is because they have found a way to get a few kills, normally they do much better in ffa, but they still refuse to try new moves. Of course you are going to lose at first when you try new combos against a better player but atleast you try something new, and have a chance to improve. But if you just try and camp around edges, and simply refuse to try new combos, then you will never become more than a mediocre player IMO. So, while it is not fair to call it dishonorable, i feel that this type of play does not have the potential for great imrovement, where as practicing combos and advanced techs will improve your play much more, and usually faster.

 

[_kSo_]

I would say that no single move in the game is dishonorable, but you could label certain play styles as dishonorable. Personally, I don't think that they are dishonorable (its just not the correct word choice), but I think that most of the styles that are deemed dishonorable are more scrub/noobish types of play. This type of play usually involves few combos, except maybe tilts, and spam throws...

I couldn't agree more. There's no single move(s) that are dishonorable in anyway. Cheap? maybe. Over prioritized? yea probably. But as a good smash player, you have to learn to get around that. and when you do, usually you'll be able to like 4-5 stock him kuz thats the only friggin strategy they know how to do. Like if a kirby keeps doing fsmash, dd grab and they're fcked

 

[cmasterchoe]

When my friends and i play we have our own "honor" code. Once you have your enemy at their final stock, you must kill them a specific way or you will not be awarded the win:

(note doesn't apply to all characters)
pikachu - must kill with a thunder
kirby - must suck them off edge (understandably kirby will die first because the opponent will be able to come out, but still kirby gets the win)
fox - must shine cancel
captain falcon - must use falcon punch
jigglypuff - sleep death
ness - pk thunder
yoshi- suck into egg off the edge
DK - donkey punch
luigi- up-B
Samus - charged shot
Link - if you can win with link, you deserve it

What results is a very intense first four stocks, and then the last one just gets hilarious. It basically evens out skill levels when someone who is really pro goes up against someone who isn't so good, it all comes down to the last kill. Like i said its for fun, but honor and style go hand in hand at our games, lol.

 

[epidiOn]

@Javrico: sure people will toy around with players worse than them. Why not? I don't argue that it's mean, but labeling it bad manner or 'dishonorable' has absolutely no point.

@bjdavis: You say what annoys you about people hoping to get a throw off the edge is that they generally get a few kills and will talk **** if they win. Well honestly, if they're so bad and not advanced, then you shouldn't be losing to them. And if you do lose to them, you should seriously consider learning from what they do, because obviously it works.

My point is that there is nothing in the game that is a 100% win, or else everyone would do it. Instead of complaining and labeling, go out and practice so you don't lose to it next time. And no play is 'dishonorable', some are just easier and more efficient than others.

 

[BladeZero]

The way I see it, if you think that a move is cheap, find a way around it. A truly good player has a counter for every cheap tactic/trick in the book. So people online are abusing a particular strategy? Tough beans. Find a way around it and stop whining.

 

[epidiOn]

The way I see it, if you think that a move is cheap, find a way around it. A truly good player has a counter for every cheap tactic/trick in the book. So people online are abusing a particular strategy? Tough beans. Find a way around it and stop whining.

QFT! Agreed. The thing that gets me is that it's being called 'dishonorable'. Just call it smart.

 

[yoshi_fan]

Ok, so you only say that a player who onlys do dash attack+grab+dash attack + grab (when you are at the good distance to do it) and then spike you is a good manner.

Even using mindgames, there are some skills who are near imposible to beat if you cant do 0-to-death combos

Its dishonorable to do things that will give you the victory sure (no dishonorable, is lame, because only "plays defensive" or camp, grabs, roll+smash and run) but is more dishonorable doing it with noobs... in reps almost everyone is a noob and i cant get better because i cango go for them: they do roll grab or something, and i miss sometime and get grabbed -> kill

Its so anoying, i was happy before a match i have just had... and even doing all i can did, i was beaten when he only pressed b button and roll, and i was doing all types of things (mindgames of course, because i cant attack him directly)...

For you isnt dishonorable, but for me it is: i cant get better, and i'm only feeling sad because i CANT do anything agains that, if i cant see anyone who lpays better...

And i'm saying play better, he dont know even DJC or Taunt cancel or anything, just z.-cancel...