Samus VS. High Prioritized Mofos (Captain Falcon/ Falco/etc...)

[THE RED SPARROW]

Hey there, long time Samus player, mostly lurker.

After years of playing I've realized that there are some characters Samus has a horrible time against on a high level, mainly because they completely overwhem Samus with high priority attacks that can't be matched.

Prime Examples (for me):

Falco's SHFFL'd Spike tears through all of Samus' attacks, including Nair and F-tilt.

Falcon's SHFFL'd Nair, eats through missiles and overwhelms Samus. SHLs also stifles Samus' movements and weakens her approach vs a Falco grabbing the ledge.

How does one counter being purely out-prioritized on a high level? Samus has a limit to what she can do versus characters that can eat through her normally high prioritized attacks (Nair).


Standard "mindgamez" approach doesn't work on good players who can react to Samus and abuse attacks they know work, Nairing through missiles is one of them.

 

[Skrah]

Well, I'm not exactly all knowledgeable in this topic, but according to what I have heard falcon has terrible priority with his aerials. Have you tried double nairing?

 

[DrewB008]

you shield and up b or crouch cancel and dsmash

and yeah falcon has basically no priority on any aerial

 

[THE RED SPARROW]

you shield and up b or crouch cancel and dsmash

and yeah falcon has basically no priority on any aerial

He has tons of priority on his Knee and Nair, and his Uair beats of trades with Nair at worst.


I already Screw Attack out of shield but that's risky if you're not properly spaced.

 

[Aftermath]

Against a cf that is doing nairs at you, sh fairs. Falco is harder, you can fsmash his dair, but that's fairly risky, since ftilt trades hits. I get ***** by shl so can't answer that one. I just try to shffmc between the lasers and shield or fsmash if he is close.

Edit: If the cf is approaching with nairs a lot, don't shoot missiles at it really, since when the missile hit it just extends how long his hitbox is out. Just try to position yourself to a place where you can jump out and sex kick him between the hits, just jump at him as he jumps at you, when you are both in range, and try to hit the first hit. Yours will generally win or trade at worst, and if you get lucky you'll hit in the middle of his leg switch.

 

[NES n00b]

He has tons of priority on his Knee and Nair, and his Uair beats of trades with Nair at worst.


I already Screw Attack out of shield but that's risky if you're not properly spaced.

Nair and Knee have no priority unless you mean Nair at specific frames at specific range can beat out something, but usually it loses if you are close enough. And Knee has no priority unless you hit when the hitbox is greatest (aka the sweetspot) at the edge of their hitbox (and is part of their hitbox). Upair has tons of priority but approaching with it? lol

 

[Ryan-K]

uair only has priority if you are below them really and the only characters with good aerials that hit below them are like falco and maybe marth

 

[Corigames]

I already Screw Attack out of shield but that's risky if you're not properly spaced.

The same could be said for nearly any tactic.
And, up B out of shield will be your greatest counter to Falco.

Against Falcon it's a bit more complex considering Falcons aren't textbook like Falcos seem to be. More or less though, stay planted on the ground. That doesn't mean CC everything, but try to avoid being above him since there's not much you can do from there that he can't capitalize on. Use platforms to your advantage to keep him from controlling the match and never ever let him recover once he's off the stage for any reason.

 

[THE RED SPARROW]

Nair and Knee have no priority unless you mean Nair at specific frames at specific range can beat out something, but usually it loses if you are close enough. And Knee has no priority unless you hit when the hitbox is greatest (aka the sweetspot) at the edge of their hitbox (and is part of their hitbox). Upair has tons of priority but approaching with it? lol

Well the person I happen to play knows how to maximize their use so that my tilts and aerials get eaten by his SHFFL'd Knees and Nairs. A Falcon on the ledge is really hard to contend with, with the standard Samus F-Tilt/Up-Tilt spacing techniques being beaten because of this.


Note: It is easy to handle Falco/CF when they are trying to recover, but once they grab the ledge they can eat your attacks/projectiles with SHL and Knee respectively.

uair only has priority if you are below them really and the only characters with good aerials that hit below them are like falco and maybe marth

When you're elevated CF's Uair will pretty much beat out all your aerial except Dair which has significant startup.

The same could be said for nearly any tactic.
And, up B out of shield will be your greatest counter to Falco.

Take my word for it, i know when to use Screw Attack, I do it often to the point where it frustrates my opponents. But good players will make you pay for messing up, esp. a Falcon.


I appreciate the advice guys, I normally don't have problems with the intermediate Falcos/CFs because they usually aren't very technical and can be read easily, but the blazing fast, highly technical players can be overwhelming and devolve your gameplay by using the speediness of their character to their advantage.


I will try using Fair vs Falcon's Nair, sounds like a good counter.

 

[Corigames]

Take my word for it, i know when to use Screw Attack, I do it often to the point where it frustrates my opponents. But good players will make you pay for messing up, esp. a Falcon.

I said Falco, just to clarify. While I think you can still effectively use it against Falcon, it is obviously not going to be quite as game making as it is against Falco.

 

[THE RED SPARROW]

I said Falco, just to clarify. While I think you can still effectively use it against Falcon, it is obviously not going to be quite as game making as it is against Falco.

I know who you were referring to, I just emphasized Falcon because good ones will destroy you for any second of vulnerability.

 

[Corigames]

Yeah, you best believe son. If you like a face full of leg elbow in your face you can leave yourself open in this match.

Ok, like I said, just clarifying.

 

[Aftermath]

Falcon on the edge is laughable. The only good thing he has is edgehop -> wd back off -> double jump -> aerial or on YS he can land on the platform and then run off with a bair or just get away. Sounds punishable, but it's really hard to not only guess when the falcon will do that, instead of something else, but to keep track of where he'll go and improvise accordingly is dumb.

Anyway, the best thing to do to falcon when he is on the edge is go for an fsmash. It outprioritizes his aerials and will most likely kill him. Setting up for it is just creating a situation where you know that he will do a edgehop aerial, roll, regular stand or getup attack, and if not then just sort of back off and see what else you can create. If he jumps or does the thing I said above you can try a sex kick or uair or fair, I suggest sex kick or uair since they will get him back off of the stage.

Bottom line is, falcon on the edge = go for fsmash.


Falcos generally go for the double laser from the edge, so space an ftilt that trades hits, or do a missile. It's pretty dumb, but I've found it's somewhat effective, moreso than just shielding the lasers or something. The thing that helps is that there's a place you stand for both and either one works as long as you react or predict well enough to get the timing.

 

[THE RED SPARROW]

Falcon on the edge is laughable. The only good thing he has is edgehop -> wd back off -> double jump -> aerial or on YS he can land on the platform and then run off with a bair or just get away. Sounds punishable, but it's really hard to not only guess when the falcon will do that, instead of something else, but to keep track of where he'll go and improvise accordingly is dumb.

Anyway, the best thing to do to falcon when he is on the edge is go for an fsmash. It outprioritizes his aerials and will most likely kill him. Setting up for it is just creating a situation where you know that he will do a edgehop aerial, roll, regular stand or getup attack, and if not then just sort of back off and see what else you can create. If he jumps or does the thing I said above you can try a sex kick or uair or fair, I suggest sex kick or uair since they will get him back off of the stage.

Bottom line is, falcon on the edge = go for fsmash.

I used to consider using F-Smash but the lag at the end always felt like Knee bait. I will consider it though, thanks.

Falcos generally go for the double laser from the edge, so space an ftilt that trades hits, or do a missile. It's pretty dumb, but I've found it's somewhat effective, moreso than just shielding the lasers or something. The thing that helps is that there's a place you stand for both and either one works as long as you react or predict well enough to get the timing.

F-tilt always ends up being a gamble because they can switch it up to a ledge hopped Dair which will out prioritize your tilts (I've tested it- same for Fox's Drill), missiles never work unless you're 2/5ths away from the edge so you have time to missile cancel before you get spammed.

I'm starting to get a gist that this might be a natural uphill battle for Samus. Esp. on FD.

 

[Geist]

The lower portion of Samus's extended nair can outprioritize Falcon's nair if he's approaching.
You obviously have to space it so that it hits him as it extends, but it should eat through him nairs and fairs. The problem there is that you're in midair now, lagging from your move, and he's on the ground.

Overall samus has more priority than falcon, falcon just has hitstun and ****-fast moves.

With a character that has insane priority, ex) shiek, fox, falco, there isn't much you can do except wait it out, space and punish. With the exeption of Falco, where you can just screw attack all day.


against lasers, the best you can do is be patient lol. You should be able to spotdodge every single laser from a perfectly timed shl, but you have to watch out for grabs, shines, etc.
If he's on the ledge, an ftilt or screw attack is your best bet, but it's still risky. Falco has a pretty strong edge game, so you have to make sure you don't get locked into a combo if you're not paying attention.
I found a little while ago that Samus's jab has farther reach than Falco's shine, and jab cancelling works as an interupting little annoyance. Good against Falcos who memorize combo's from muscle memory, but I don't know about the better ones lol. I know you can interupt his ledge hop double laser with a jab though, it's been done.

 

[THE RED SPARROW]

The lower portion of Samus's extended nair can outprioritize Falcon's nair if he's approaching.
You obviously have to space it so that it hits him as it extends, but it should eat through him nairs and fairs. The problem there is that you're in midair now, lagging from your move, and he's on the ground.

Overall samus has more priority than falcon, falcon just has hitstun and ****-fast moves.

With a character that has insane priority, ex) shiek, fox, falco, there isn't much you can do except wait it out, space and punish. With the exeption of Falco, where you can just screw attack all day.


against lasers, the best you can do is be patient lol. You should be able to spotdodge every single laser from a perfectly timed shl, but you have to watch out for grabs, shines, etc.
If he's on the ledge, an ftilt or screw attack is your best bet, but it's still risky. Falco has a pretty strong edge game, so you have to make sure you don't get locked into a combo if you're not paying attention.
I found a little while ago that Samus's jab has farther reach than Falco's shine, and jab cancelling works as an interupting little annoyance. Good against Falcos who memorize combo's from muscle memory, but I don't know about the better ones lol. I know you can interupt his ledge hop double laser with a jab though, it's been done.

These are some interesting tidbits. Much appreciated.

What about SHFFL'D Knee spammage or midair knee confrontation? Nothing in Samus' repertoire (Missile, Nair, Fair, Uair, etc...) seem to defeat a well timed knee.

Most intermediate Falcons always try to spam Knees in a predicatable way which you can read and counter with Nair etc.., but tourney level Falcons can maximize their Knees to hit right at the peak of their priority repeatedly, which trades in their favor or beats Samus completely.

 

[Geist]

Most intermediate Falcons always try to spam Knees in a predicatable way which you can read and counter with Nair etc.., but tourney level Falcons can maximize their Knees to hit right at the peak of their priority repeatedly, which trades in their favor or beats Samus completely.

Yeah, I know what you mean. Most tourney level falcon's I've played never full-up knee you, they either bait or combo you into them, and it ALWAYS hits. Unless you're hugs or something.
Overall, I'd say Falcon > Samus for the matchup, unless you're hugs or something.
Just remember that as long as you're spacing is right, you should outprioritize him most- not all- of the time.

 

[THE RED SPARROW]

Yeah, I know what you mean. Most tourney level falcon's I've played never full-up knee you, they either bait or combo you into them, and it ALWAYS hits. Unless you're hugs or something.
Overall, I'd say Falcon > Samus for the matchup, unless you're hugs or something.
Just remember that as long as you're spacing is right, you should outprioritize him most- not all- of the time.

lol I guess it's all about those mindgames, in the end.

 

[Corigames]

Don't play on FD, hide under platforms, if the pressure is on Up B to suck him up and drop back below so that you can't be punished.

That should at least alleviate some of the tension of having a very in-your-face Falcon player.

I've only really seen good Falcons approach in 2 ways. 1 would be to Nair just in front or just behind you. If they land just in front they are setting up to do a combo. If they land behind they are setting up for a grab. The other way would be to come straight at you on the ground, jump straight up right in front of you, and then try to punish your reaction with a Dair or Knee. Of course they sometimes mix this up by just grabbing you, but that's generally it.

And heads up for reverse off the edge Falcon punches while on your last stock. You do not want to be hit by that for your last stock. People make videos and .gif images of shame/epic for that.

 

[victra♥]

haha. I heart the title of this thread. <3

 

[Aftermath]

So I was playing some late night games yesterday, and kept getting ***** by Marth when I was trying to get back on stage. The guy is the person who I learned the game with, so he knows Samus really well, and wasn't even edgeguarding, but just punishing any attempt I made of getting up from the edge. It was pretty dumb, so what are the best ways to get up from the edge against a Marth?

He always stood back to where I could jump on the edge as much as I wanted, but if a part of me went on stage I'd get hit. I tried regular standing, jumping, rolling, wding back on, the hugs getup, airdodging through an attack, jumping with a missile or another attack, and trying to bomb then swd, but seemed to get punished. He'd generally go for a tilt, if that missed he'd go for a grab or nair/fair, which would be enough to get me off the edge, since I couldn't very well get past any of those. A tilt knocked me off, even if I had shielded, resulting in square 1. Getting grabbed out of a roll or whiffed attack sent me back off. If I tried to wd on far enough not to get knocked off the edge from my shield, I'd get tilted. Airdodging on stage resulted in a grab.

Assuredly some of this was probably me being tired/frustrated, but how do you get back from the edge against marth?


Edit: This thread > other Q&A thread, if only for the name.

 

[Corigames]

Did you try doing the third jump hitting him with the grapple while still rising over him?
Have you tried wavelanding with your shield up?
Have you tried jumping and attacking without intent of landing on the stage, re-grabbing and trying any other get-up from there?
Have you tried air dodging to make him miss on his first swing and then using the grapple out of it to stop the next or the grab?

But, yeah, that is never the fun part of the Marth match up. Actually... it's not fun : (

 

[Aftermath]

Hitting with the grapple has zero hitstun and crazy landing lag. I was fsmashed when I tried the first option. Didn't try the 4th for similar reasons.

He hit me out of the waveland before I could shield.

He was pretty far on stage, so no aerials would hit without going on stage, and he'd just jab beams.

 

[Geist]

wow that sounds frustrating as hell.
what if you let go, re-grabbed, and used the 30 frames of invincibility to get up safely? You should be able to waveland up on the stage and punish him for tilting... Was he ftilting or dtilting?
Anyways, you should have enough time to set up for a grab or a smash or something.

At least, in theory this works.

 

[duals]

It was pretty dumb, so what are the best ways to get up from the edge against a Marth?

Should have posted this in my VS. Marth thread... -_- i need serious help with this too...

theres also the problem when they hang on the edge....I get close with jump recover... they drop down and Bair till i can no longer get to the stage ><

 

[Geist]

theres also the problem when they hang on the edge....I get close with jump recover... they drop down and Bair till i can no longer get to the stage ><

Screw attack should outprioritize bair if you space it.
While recovering low, try to fake him out before hand with midair maneuvering from your bombs, you may get the opportunity to hit him before hand. If that fails, go in low, and screw attack him when he should least expect it. Or most expect it - he wouldn't be expecting that.

 

[duals]

Screw attack should outprioritize bair if you space it.
While recovering low, try to fake him out before hand with midair maneuvering from your bombs, you may get the opportunity to hit him before hand. If that fails, go in low, and screw attack him when he should least expect it. Or most expect it - he wouldn't be expecting that.

lets say im low about the middle arc on final destination.... (if you don't understand im sorry...)

Marth's back air is very..... wide... i can't out maneuver getting hit with out dying.... or if i do dodge it... i have no room for the Up-B.... i think firing a missile will be best i think -_-

 

[DrewB008]

save your jump, bomb first to get close, then jump to avoid the bair when they attack you. or airdodge through the bair and grapple.

aftermath i'd say just mix up letting go and regrabbing a few times then standing straight up or rolling up, then you just have to do something right away after you make it up cause he probably cant get you in time every time. this works a lot less well when youre over 100 though, at that point youre just gonna have to bust out mad trix

 

[Corigames]

Hitting with the grapple has zero hitstun and crazy landing lag.

Have you ever seen someone killed by a jab or bomb recovering from the edge?

The premise is the same. People see things and just EXPECT them to hit something or you to dodge them. If they get hit hard, then they react accordingly. However, in some cases, just doing a slight hit can throw them off. Maybe not too much, but enough to get your foot in the door.

 

[THE RED SPARROW]

Hitting with the grapple has zero hitstun and crazy landing lag. I was fsmashed when I tried the first option. Didn't try the 4th for similar reasons.

He hit me out of the waveland before I could shield.

He was pretty far on stage, so no aerials would hit without going on stage, and he'd just jab beams.

Jesus! Are you playing against Mew2King?!!! j/k

Yeah it's a scary moment for Samus. One of my risky ways of getting back is a ledgehopped air dodge. You might get regrabbed depending on if he tilted and his positioning but it's another option.


Ledge hop Nair is also another way.

 

[Aftermath]

I'm playing with the person that I learned to play smash with. He definitely knows Samus, especially mine, very well and is good at punishing. Hopefully I'm not coming off as obstinate.

I went with ledgehop sex kick at lower %s, hoping to at least trade hits, then try to get back on while he was getting back in place, but him being back so far meant that he had to be late in reacting, so I was always paranoid about it lol.

 

[Mars-]

Lol, I would suggest shielding, I'm pretty sure that has priority over every attack, but I might be wrong, I don't play samus.

 

[Rat]

Aftermath:
I'm not really sure what you are looking for here. There really is not an 'answer' to the question. There are just tools and possibilities.


Here are my suggestions:
Ask him how he is beating you there, and see if he has any ideas for countering what he does. Then go and practice that spot over and over with the person.

Do a risk vs. reward assessment.
Instead of trying to find an answer that works. Find an answer that if it fails, you aren't way behind.

Alternatively you can just be a baller and do what BigD does: throw out huge-but-risky moves. Ex: Waveland Grab, or Waveland Dsmash.


Some more Tools:
I like to throw in ledgehop (regrab) charge shots. Hitting them with a BB gun might shake their focus. Giving you time to do an immediate Ledgejump.

I also like to roll (below 100%), then UpB. It usually beats a reaction grab.

 

[DrewB008]

*sinks a three*

but seriously, roll or stand up from the ledge right away if hes not set yet or after some tricksies to throw off his timing and youll probably either get away with it or get grabbed, but getting grabbed is no big deal in that matchup