Samus vs falco, who do you think really has the favor?

[sandwhale]

So you're gunna just sit on the edge the whole game never rising to stage height? firstly the fact that you would force a 0-0 tie proves that Falco has the advantage since the best you seem to want to do is tie.

Falco can run to the oppositte side of the stage that you are hanging on and spam SHDL to hit you if you mistime a jump to fire something at Falco since I don't think you actually plan on sitting under the stage for 7 straight minutes due to the fact that's ********. Lasers are a decently fast projectile that can travel the distance of FD (and plenty farther) while most of Samus's projectiles are quite slow and won't make it that far other than the fully charge blast shot which she can't charge while she is hanging anyways (yes, yes I know FD isn't the only stage people play on but I'm using it as an example anyway). If you are playing on a shorter map that say a strong missile will make it to the other end, Falco still has ample time to throw out a reflector or just straight out dodge it since the SHDL leaves him with no lag.

If you can't see this matchup is clearly in Falco's favor you are the one that fails and you seriously need to stop just thinking so highly of a character because they are your main and instead try thinking of the advantages and disadvantages that are straight fact.

exactly. thinking spending the hole much ledge camping is a viable strategy in high level play is just stupid. if you attack each time you jump off the ledge that will leave you vulnerable and if you just keep regrabbing it will be considered stalling. show me a high level match where a player spends the whole ledge stalling and no it is not the new ingenious way of playing that you are the first to discover

 

[Gum]

So you're gunna just sit on the edge the whole game never rising to stage height? firstly the fact that you would force a 0-0 tie proves that Falco has the advantage since the best you seem to want to do is tie.

Falco can run to the oppositte side of the stage that you are hanging on and spam SHDL to hit you if you mistime a jump to fire something at Falco since I don't think you actually plan on sitting under the stage for 7 straight minutes due to the fact that's ********. Lasers are a decently fast projectile that can travel the distance of FD (and plenty farther) while most of Samus's projectiles are quite slow and won't make it that far other than the fully charge blast shot which she can't charge while she is hanging anyways (yes, yes I know FD isn't the only stage people play on but I'm using it as an example anyway). If you are playing on a shorter map that say a strong missile will make it to the other end, Falco still has ample time to throw out a reflector or just straight out dodge it since the SHDL leaves him with no lag.

If you can't see this matchup is clearly in Falco's favor you are the one that fails and you seriously need to stop just thinking so highly of a character because they are your main and instead try thinking of the advantages and disadvantages that are straight fact.

See but what you fail to understand is that it is NEVER a tie, and thats not what Im going for. Unless you are playing against someone you play all the time and they know your Samus, they ALWAYS chase you, in which case they die. It never fails. Of course I could go on-stage and fight normally, in which case there are still plenty of strategies you can use to win, but why bother when you know they will go for the bait. If you see SHDL from the ledge coming, obviousley you dont jump, you continue to hang on the ledge. The ledge camping thing is moreso a response to laser spam. Aside from that, The guy I play with most of the time mains Falco, so I know how to fight him even if I don't ledge camp, but as soon as I see laser spam, back to the edge I go. If Falco can be gay and laser spam, then once again, why can't I do the same with ledge camping. You are playing to win right. Character advantage in this particular case is subjective because Falco is dismal off the stage and dies easily from star KO's (which means Samus can kill him near 100% with d-tilt which is an on-stage strategy if you wnat to go there), but this will only apply in a match where the Samus player knows the match-up. My point is that one character has the advantage over the other ONLY depending on the environment of the fight. If I spend my time off the stage, Falco does not have the advantage. If I spend all my time on the stage, he does. Hence why I said that he does not have a TRUE advantage.

@Sandwhale: It works wonders in high level play because the only person who sees it coming (from me at least) is SlashTalon, in which case he doesn't choose falco. Every other Falco I have played against in tourney has lossed to that strategy. Of course there are things they SHOULD do against ledge camping, but they don't do it because they:

1) Don't play against enough Samus' to know what can happen, and automatically assume that the match will turn out in their favor

2) Don't realize that a simple ledge drop bair won't do the trick and will only result in them getting spiked anyway because Samus is too floaty.

Its easy to respond to the strategy through talking about it here, but in tourneys most players don't have the patience to sit there and watch you ledge camp without trying to rush in to stop it. Also consider the fact that when you first go onto the edge it isn't recognized as ledge camping right off the bat because youjust did it. As soon as you go onto the edge, they chase you which is one stock, which is all you need to win the match. Thats called taking advantage of your opponent's disadvantage which is perfectly legit.

 

[J4pu]

Still, tou are saying you need them to follow you off the edge to get a stock off /advantage, just because they will likely follow you off (which you claim is your experience) doesn't mean Samus has the advantage in the match-up, rather it means the Falco is unknowledgable about the current situation and the rather large advantage Samus has in it.

For stage fighting you said you have strategies that you can use against Falco, but you also said that as soon as you see a laser you run back off the edge, that is you being well-informed on the advantage and doing what you can to even it out. Personally I don't spam lasers for their damage but rather I use them to approach or make my opponent approach or sometimes frustrate, lasers aren't for damage, they are for throwing the foe into an unfamiliar setting and taking advantage of that to get in real hits.

By saying you would run off the edge when you see lasers (because you know you just lost the advantage) and that the Falco would follow you off because he doesn't understand the disadvantage is measuring people of different abilities against each other, which is not how match-ups are determined, you have to take people of the same skill level and knowledge and see how the characters fare then.

Samus has advantage off-stage, but not to a sufficient amount where she is going to gimp Falco every time he is trying to recover.
Falco has advantage on stage, Samus is a pretty slow character whose height also adds to her difficulty with lasers, to add on to this, samus's projectile game against Falco is largely shut down due to the reflector (sure she can still throw some stuff in here and there but she won't be spamming it all day like it is safe to do against some characters)

The match will eventually be forced onto the stage if neither character wants to go to the other's area of comfort, even if the only reason is that Brawl in general is played on the stage, that is sufficient enough to make the ledge sitting seem like stalling and the waiting falco on the stage to be just waiting for the stalling to end.

Therefore the advantage goes to Falco

I don't know how the hell you manage to get people to follow you off the stage, I play Samus here and there against my friends and they just kind of just sit on the stage and wait (I guess because they are aware of the danger, but still, I want some off stage gimp kills for fun)

 

[sandwhale]

gum you base you hole argument on the fact the the opponent will chase after you which is WRONG. any high or even normal skilled falco who knows any little bit of the matchup will know that falco's key to victory is out camping samus. and while falco's camping takes place ont the stage samus's takes places on the ledge wich is considered stalling thus it is the samus that will be forced to in falco's advantegeous zone.

 

[Gum]

@J4pu and Sandwhale: I most definitely understand what you are both saying, and its not ALL based on player skill and knowledge and its influence on the characters, but you cant completely ignore these factors because then you wouldn't have a match at all. For example, when you consider the fact that both characters have completely different physics and that these physics play a part in both of their advantages and disadvantages, you must also consider the fact that, even if you are not trying to BAIT Falco off the stage, you can still push for that to happen and then take advantage of the off-stage game. This is not mind game, or player skill based argument. Note that I said as soon as I see laser SPAM I go off stage. You are correct in that it is a way for one to even out the match, but the fact of the matter is that lasers are Falco main advantage over Samus. We can argue close-range game, speed and other things, but the victor in that situation can be moreso determined by timing given the fact that Falco is not MK. Falco can die to a dtilt at lower percents than he can kill Samus with any of his KO moves. That in itself makes the close range argument null and void. A simple double jump FF zair can get over a SHDL to reflector all day, so the reflector doesn't offer a true threat. The fact of the matter is that these two characters can thoroughly destroy each other given the situation. This is one of the only character matc-ups were this applies so strictly. A good Samus will always push for Falco to go off stage. A good Falco will try to prevent that at all cost, so neither one has a true advantage over the other. Let me put this into perspective. DDD has a true advantage over Samus. He can chaingrab her, standing infinite her, has no great disadvatage off stage, can spam, has projectile that KO, is extremely heavy and therefore hard to KO, and has very good ground KO moves in general. That is a true advantage. None of these apply to Falco.

 

[ADHD]

I actually agree with gum on this one, falco can't do anything while you're stalling on the ledge. Samus is the best ledge staller in the game, although rob outcamps her when it comes to te ledge she has so many more options.

 

[Gum]

There is that and the fact that in close combat, Samus can jab cancel dtilt and dsmash Falco for days. Her ftilt out ranges him and a retreating fair beats all of his aerials.

 

[Mars-]

Man, this was a good thread until people started writing essays as a responce.

 

[sandwhale]

at no moment in your post did you counter my argument that you can't get falco the chase you on the edge by ledgestalling...with this said let's get on to stage fight. you kept talking about possibilities samus has againse falco in close range but falco has no need to get in close combat with samus because he controls the stage like mad with his lazers phantasm refltector etc and if you do ever get close falco will most likely start in a more advantegeous situation because by making your way throug his defense you will end up in a situation with less options than him.

 

[ADHD]

Man, this was a good thread until people started writing essays as a responce.

I can see why you hate essays

 

[J4pu]

I'll make this short so it isn't as painful of a sight.

I think Falco's Fsmash kills Samus before Samus's Dtilt kills Falco, but I'll give you the kill advantage since Fsmash has startup lag. As Sandwhale said your only plan to get around lasers was to double jump over and FF Zair on the way down, by the time you get to the apex of your jump Falco will have started another SHDL sequence (in other words the speed difference [as well as phantasm for spacing] makes this an unlikely strategy). You also said once you hit Falco off you have the advantage, while that is technically true it isn't the same as if Falco chased you off the edge to fight since when you hit Falco off his goal will be to get back to the stage safely, not to fight you off the stage and there is a big difference in Falco's mortality rate for these two scenarios. Your retreating SH Fair doesnt' matter we have lasers, so not only can we stand back and laser you but we can also approach SHDL before getting to you and then attack you from the laser stun (not full-proof but still gives Falco the advantage I believe).

Wasn't as bad as the last posts I believe.

oh, and

I actually agree with gum on this one, falco can't do anything while you're stalling on the ledge. Samus is the best ledge staller in the game, although rob outcamps her when it comes to te ledge she has so many more options.

Samus is an awesome ledge staller, but Falco has a reflector which makes any horizontal (slow moving) projectiles shot from the edge a joke. All projectiles are pretty obvious when ledge hopped (especially when they are purposely edge-hanging for stalling purposes before that) and as i said before it is Samus that will have to give in to a change in setting since Falco isn't considered stalling by standing on the stage and not chasing her off

 

[Mars-]

I can see why you hate essays

Who said anything about hating essays?

 

[ADHD]

Who said anything about hating essays?

"This thread was good until people started writing essays."

Yeah I can actually see this in samus' favor if she ahead in stock obviously but if falco is in the lead then it can be a really hard fight

 

[Gum]

Ok i'll be as short as possible

-retreating fair is taking into account one aerial vs the other, not including lasers. I could have said Zair eats ever single one of Falco's aerials, but I was only talking about normal attacks.

-force him off the stage offensively is what i meant. His chances off survival are much less if he is knocked of the stage or baited off, as opposed to Samus getting knocked off because he wont chase.

-Falco does not start another cycles of SHDL's before he gets zaired by way of DDJFF zair. The only time that happens is if the Samus messes up, and at the worst they trade hits and zair has more stun than lasers.

-Samus' dtilt kills Falco faster than his fsmash kills her because he dies easy vertically, not because it has startup lag, though that is a factor.

- Power shielding is the perfect way to beat Falco without baiting him off stage. Most people dont consider this because many havn't taken out the time to practice it as an AT. Samus can dash cancel power shield and ftilt Falco out of both his phantasm AND another laser cycle.

@Sandwhale: The point is that it isn't known by most Falco's that they will die if the take the bait. It is a psychological thing. Of course, if you want to "force" him to chase you, you can dash cancel power shield to ftilt and then do the same thing back to the edge, and repeat. The fact of the matter is that lasers are the only thing that Falco has on Samus, but lasers don't KO, and if they are avoided, Samus wins.

 

[sandwhale]

"This thread was good until people started writing essays."

Yeah I can actually see this in samus' favor if she ahead in stock obviously but if falco is in the lead then it can be a really hard fight

?! could you please develop your reasoning?

gum> matchups take in account maximum matchup knowledge from both players so your psychology reasoning doesn't work. no you will not destroy falco's game with powershield folowed by f-tilts...and lazers are not the only thing falco has against samus they're just one of the aspects of falco's majer advantage against samus: match control

 

[J4pu]

****, I thought this thread had died.

What you said about Samus baiting > Powershield > Ftilt continuously across the stage to get Falco near the edge is like saying Samus is better because she can use mindgames.
Here I have one, Falco can powershield every one of Samus's attacks and punish the lag every time, ha, beat that... but seriously, no more senseless reasons please.
I'm pretty sure Falco can start the 2nd cycle of lasers before Samus can jump, double jump, reach peak height, FF Zair; but I am thinking that you mean to wait until the apex of Samus's first jump before you do the midair one, so that might just be a general misunderstanding.

"-force him off the stage offensively is what i meant. His chances off survival are much less if he is knocked of the stage or baited off, as opposed to Samus getting knocked off because he wont chase."
You are once again repeating old reasons that have been argued against, using them a 2nd time won't change the fact that we already answered them:
-"You also said once you hit Falco off you have the advantage, while that is technically true it isn't the same as if Falco chased you off the edge to fight since when you hit Falco off his goal will be to get back to the stage safely, not to fight you off the stage and there is a big difference in Falco's mortality rate for these two scenarios." From my post earlier on this page
and something was also said earlier by multiple people that in order to take into account character match-up advantages you need both people to have an equal understanding of their characters advantages/disadvantages thus Falco would not willingly follow you off the stage.

I'll test what kills first sometime today, Falco's Fsmash, Upsmash, Samus Dtilt, or Samus Fsmash, I'll have percentages soon.

 

[PK-ow!]

?! could you please develop your reasoning?

But the problem is that itself might PO Mars-. :embarrass

I thought about what Gum said, and have been thinking about Samus' "floatiness." If only one could truly fight from off-stage. Samus has so much floating time, and a great recovery that not only can she take her time when preying on recovering foes, but she can shoot a few missiles from offstage too.

But you need a platform to give you some height to begin with. And the missiles will just be shielded, without much effort. Plus it's no good against the confidence of Marth.