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Samus>MK?

Throwback

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I know this sounds crazy, but hear me out.

Bombs. Samus can force MK to approach through bombs a lot, giving her the advantage in the face-off. Even if she goes 50/50 for damage, she is winning.

Recovery - samus is one of the only characters who MK has difficulty edgegaurding/gimping. Also I have clashed my dair with MK's uair on occasion.

I personally don't play MK enough - and I'm not good enough - to prove/disprove my theory, but I am hoping some of the better players out there will shoot me down ;)

Be gentle.
 

Solo Assass1n

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Samus can force MK to approach through bombs a lot, giving her the advantage in the face-off.
He'd approach anyway, bombs or not. Not to mention his tornado which I wouldn't be surprised at all if it out prioritizes her bombs. Oh, and she definitely does not have the advantage at close range, I don't think anyone does in fact...
 

Ravin

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Samus is a decent counter for MK.

Her bombs are > his tornado. -Points at post above his-

Youd just need a bigger stage to space and appropriately keep him at bay and mindgames.

I dont have too many problems with most MK's. Most of them dash at you and grab runing A or Shutle Loop. a nice Dtilt puts them in place. getting hit with a Mach tornado or two is unavoidable.

play the edge if you have to. Its what I do sometimes and it makes it harder for them to ko me.
 

0RLY

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I know this sounds crazy, but hear me out.

Bombs. Samus can force MK to approach through bombs a lot, giving her the advantage in the face-off. Even if she goes 50/50 for damage, she is winning.

MK has no projectile. He would be forced to approach no matter what. MK can probably use 3 attacks in the time it takes to use one bomb.

Recovery - samus is one of the only characters who MK has difficulty edgegaurding/gimping. Also I have clashed my dair with MK's uair on occasion.

Samus is still easy to gimp. Her aerials have no priority so she won't be fighting very long against MK's disjointed attacks. Airdodging almost makes it easier for MK to gimp you because of his nair. Also, aerials never clash. Your dair will never beat MK's uair.

I personally don't play MK enough - and I'm not good enough - to prove/disprove my theory, but I am hoping some of the better players out there will shoot me down ;)

Shoot you down? Pfft...! DEDEDE FSMASH!!!

Be gentle.
Nice try, but not nearly good enough.
 

Throwback

Smash Lord
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Nice try, but not nearly good enough.
ok I'll bite.

MK has no projectile. He would be forced to approach no matter what. MK can probably use 3 attacks in the time it takes to use one bomb.

If you try and lay a bomb while MK is right next to you, yes. I’m talking about bomb camping– where you actually have space and lay a bomb in front of MK’s approach (yes it is possible). If MK approaches he can either go through the bomb or jump over it. If MK is coming in grounded, Samus can literally spot-dodge, and the bomb will become active in time to save you/retaliate. That’s if you don’t d-tilt, f-tilt, grab etc…In the air, MK’s aerial speed is poor; he has to airdodge or eat the zair. If MK doesn’t approach, Samus can charge her shot, zair or missile spam. Every time MK stuffs up, he eats a bomb + whatever tilt you want to hit him with.

That situation seems like a clear advantage to me, even counting MK’s nado and overB. The issue is whether or not Samus can spam the bomb and camp it well enough to take the advantage on the stage.

Samus is still easy to gimp. Her aerials have no priority so she won't be fighting very long against MK's disjointed attacks. Airdodging almost makes it easier for MK to gimp you because of his nair. Also, aerials never clash. Your dair will never beat MK's uair.

You’re right aerials can’t clash my bad. They can trade hits, however. I thought it was possible to trade hits with MK’s uair. Oh well. MK is a beast offstage, I agree, but from the right angle (ie below) you are usually safe. It is significantly in MK’s favour though.

If you can keep MK even in %, he has to get you pretty high to have a good chance of gimping you – whereas you can 1-hit kill earlier than him.

I guess I’m arguing that if both characters are at even %s up to about 115%, Samus is winning. I would also argue that a good bomb-camping Samus (not me) has the advantage or is at worst even in that battle. Thus my theory that Samus>MK.
 

Sinz

The only true DR vet.
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Erm... no?

This match up is clearly in MKs favor.

You said that you have one thing that works sometimes against MK. And saying MKs aerials are slow? Are you on drugs? His aerials are amazing. If he gets close.(which will happen. Ever though of MK coming from

Samus is dead when she gets off the stage against MK. Her upb is not nearly good enough, the nair counters that move easy. yeah they will clash, but you will get sent either A, in the a stage spike, or b further out. If you try to recover with zair, yeah thats funny.

Also, you do know MK can rise in his tornado, right? Many Samus players have tried bomb camping, if I am tornado, I hit the b button twice and I rise above the bomb avoiding it. And hitting her.
 

BurtonEarny

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Youd just need a bigger stage to space and appropriately keep him at bay and mindgames.
QUOTE]

Why does everyone have to coment on the mindgames like they are going to work 100 percent of the time? If your opponent is a better player than you(i.e. better thinker or problem solver in general)... it doesn't really matter what mindgames you use. I play peach which is considered a "mindgame" character, and people talk about them like they are a move... you cant count on mindgames as a full-proof strategy, because mindgames only work if the opponent doesn't KNOW a way around them or cant figure out a way around them fast enough.

pardon this rant.plx
 

Throwback

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I never said his aerial attacks are slow, I said his aerial speed is slow. eg his horizontal movement speed. I had no idea nair counters upB, that really sucks. And yes I know MK is going to get close, I never said Samus is untouchable vs MK.

re the nado, sure it can go over a bomb. You have to activate out of range though, giving time to shield. Same as a short hop fair - it's slow enough from that distance that Samus can punish with zair (assuming she spaces from her bomb correctly). At the end of the day, having the bomb down and facing MK is always better than not having it down. MK often has to accept he will get hit in order to hit Samus, or worse.

Not saying it is gg for MK, I'm saying Samus seems to have an advantage from bomb camping well. Although if nair beating upB is true then that screws Samus majorly. Can someone please confirm, I haven't seen it myself.
 

Xyro77

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Ive always had this idea of IMPOSSIBLE match ups.

Meta vs Samus is one of them.

NOTHING samus has out prioritizes meta. meta is faster in every way and can apply pressure that can not be punished. Meta can gimp samus recovery in MANY MANY as well. If anybody argues this, they are living in a fantasy world or play absolute garbage metas.

Oh and on the BOMB issue. Be realistic, samus's bombs in this game SUCK. They have next to no use and the foe would have to be drunk/high/missing both eyes and half of thier brain to get hit by one.

This board is almost total trash.
 

Quez256

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Ok, Xyro just owned the thread. Aside from that, theory only goes so far. MK is fast, small, and can gimp like nobody's business. That, and the ridiculous priority on nearly all his attacks make this fight near-impossible.
 

Kiyosuki

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If many of Samus' moves had more knockback (like they should) then maybe...just maybe I could kinda see it. But that's not how it is. Meta Knight can just counterattack too quickly I think and armored Samus' moves just arn't sporting the knockback and power that their somewhat sluggish speed warrants.
 

Throwback

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Ive always had this idea of IMPOSSIBLE match ups.

Meta vs Samus is one of them.

NOTHING samus has out prioritizes meta. meta is faster in every way and can apply pressure that can not be punished. Meta can gimp samus recovery in MANY MANY as well. If anybody argues this, they are living in a fantasy world or play absolute garbage metas.

Oh and on the BOMB issue. Be realistic, samus's bombs in this game SUCK. They have next to no use and the foe would have to be drunk/high/missing both eyes and half of thier brain to get hit by one.

This board is almost total trash.
I'ts good to get the views of a top Samus player, thanks.

However, I disagree about the bombs being crap,, and so do some other people. Time will tell I guess.
 

Solo Assass1n

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Throwback, I hate to inform you that Samus does not have Super Bombs in Brawl, sorry. Seriously, they aren't anywhere near how good you are mentioning them to be. "OH NOEZ, A BOMB!" *Jumps over it and aerials before Samus is out of Morph Ball* -_____-
 

Throwback

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Quick update - just tested MK's Nair against Samus' upB. They clash, but Samus appears to be able to DI the hit. If that's right Nair is nowhere near a guaranteed kill defense against upB. It also doesn't have great knockback.

Edit: @ soloassassin - I know, and I know MK is **** quick. MK always flogs me. Also just watched Eggs MK vs Rohins, MK was all over it.

Despite the thread, I'm a realist - I know MK is an incredibly hard fight right now. However, I have hopes for bomb camping in the hands of an expert.
 

0RLY

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If you continually retreat with bombs, you'll eventually run out of room to retreat. Then what could you do? Retreat in place? Yeah right! MK can easily get through the bomb and attack so fast, he can punish any of your dodges. His dtilt can go through your shield, outrange your Screw Attack, and is too fast for you to grab, jab, tilt, whatever. His ftilt can get through your spot dodge. And ANYTHING, even his Dimensional Cape can beat your roll. If he decides to approach from the air, his lagless aerials will allow him to punish anything. Just by using a bomb, you're giving yourself less space. FAIL THREAD IS FAIL.

 

Xyro77

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I truly hope you people stop using bomb......they have no use in this game.
 

Rohins

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Bombs
- Near MK, you get grabbed and the slide from the grab takes you away from danger.
- On top of MK you get hit
- Far from MK...honestly MK's ground speed can make up for that whole time you sit in your morph ball being useless.

The only way I've been able to recover vs his meta is to try to upB him before he hits me and land on the stage (where he can punish me on the level). Sounds bad, but it beats being instantly gimped. Don't even think of using tether, that's like a free (insert mk aerial here).

The only thing I see that works vs MK is ftilt. I'm absolutely serious. Even zair, since you have to wait so long in the air before you can hit MK, is pretty weak vs MK on the ground. SHFFZ (yeah I said it) helps a little bit, still doesn't circumvent that floaty nastiness of you rising in the air. Samus' ftilt outranges a lot of MK's moves so you can widdle away at them slowly.

Yeah...1 useable move on Samus' part vs MK's entire moveset. Guess who wins?

Oh yeah, I played Eggz again last night in tournament and he 2 stocked me twice again. God I hate myself.

edit:
A cool fyi though (not that I think it helps much): you can shield grab MK if they do a rising short hop aerial to your shield like fair, nair, or bair (dunno about dair...probably not. def not uair duh).
 

0RLY

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Oh pick me! Pick me! Samus' dtilt is helpful against MK too! Just as much range as ftilt and comes out a tad faster. It puts MK in the air, where you might be able to bait him to dodge/aerial attack. Personally, I see almost no hope against a skilled MK unless you're on Battlefield, where you can abuse Screw Attack. At higher percents, you can use dtilt to give yourself enough time to charge your beam. We're still screwed, though.

 

tha_carter

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....MK can do THREE aerial attacks before the bomb animation is complete. LOL.

If i play as samus head to head with one of the better samus players , itll be a close match.
Having minimal experience with MK, if i play against that same player as MK i can easily 2 stock them.

Reliable moves are upB, and uncharged shots. But its always a boring match, because of how scared/defensive you have to play. Its pathetic, really.
 

Quez256

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Quick update - just tested MK's Nair against Samus' upB. They clash, but Samus appears to be able to DI the hit. If that's right Nair is nowhere near a guaranteed kill defense against upB. It also doesn't have great knockback.

Edit: @ soloassassin - I know, and I know MK is **** quick. MK always flogs me. Also just watched Eggs MK vs Rohins, MK was all over it.

Despite the thread, I'm a realist - I know MK is an incredibly hard fight right now. However, I have hopes for bomb camping in the hands of an expert.
Keep in mind that MK's n-air, if well-timed, hits twice. The stronger of which (17% fresh I think) has a lot of knockback. So even with DI, you'd still be screwed. Also, does the d-air also clash with the up-b?
 

Throwback

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Keep in mind that MK's n-air, if well-timed, hits twice. The stronger of which (17% fresh I think) has a lot of knockback. So even with DI, you'd still be screwed. Also, does the d-air also clash with the up-b?
Nair clashes with upB, so no second hit. I suppose if you timed it perfectly you could hit with just the 2nd hit. Needs more testing to see how powerful that 2nd hit is.

Dair is always beaten by upB, as far as I can tell.

Edit: I mean 'trades hits' with upB. Got the terminology wrong again, my bad.
 

Boolossus

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Lol, bombs, although nowhere near as useful as they were in melee, are certainly not useless.

Anyways, good MKs are near impossible for Samus to beat. All of MK's aerials > all of Samus's Aerials. MK runs right underneath zair, and missiles, and you'll get grabbed. Try it for yourself. If you shoot missiles from the ground, they'll hit him, but grounded missiles are too slow when fighting against speedy MK.

Bombs can throw him off his game a little bit, but you can't rely on bombs to win you the match. I suppose that you could try spamming bombs and uncharged shots, to replace your nearly useless zair and missiles. I've never tried it, I usually just switch to Zero Suit for this match. It seems like spamming those two attacks could be somewhat effective vs MK though.
 

Gum

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Lol the funny thing is that I havn't lost against a MK in the last 4 tourneys I've entered. Lemme just be blunt. If you play against MK enough, you start to realize things, such as these:

-Bombs (contrary to what Xyro says) are amazing against MK. The trick is to use them with the assumption that he will approach even if he isn't. In terms of running out of room with retreating bombs, this only happens if you are dumb. You can lay bombs and DI forward in order to space yourself accordingly, and you can cancel them into dtilts and such.

-IT IS SOOOO EASY TO SPIKE MK OVER AND OVER AGAIN. use your dair early and assume that he will chase becasue he always does. He literally runs into your dair almost everytime off the ledge. Also, use bombs as a barrier when he chases you offstage. As soon as one hits, he drops below you. Assume this will happen and dair early. It works. also bombs > mach tornado

-Charge shot the **** out of that man when he is gayly soaring back to the stage. A ledge drop reverse charge shot hits about 90% of the time and charge shot is > shuttle loop

-Samus can take MK in the air. THe issue is timing and position. I uair the crap out of MK all the time because I know that most of the time MK will dair early for the higher priority hit.

-dtilt ***** MK, nuff said

-MK only gets under zair, again, if you are dumb or just dont know what you are doing. You zair him when he goes airborne, and you zair him on the ground using either fast fall zair or retreating zair. both hit him on the ground easily.

In other words, don't be stupid and you can beat MK REALLY easily. Put it like this: MK players are confident and go into matches assuming they will win, especially against Samus. let them think that, and **** them up.
 

ADHD

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Lol the funny thing is that I havn't lost against a MK in the last 4 tourneys I've entered. Lemme just be blunt. If you play against MK enough, you start to realize things, such as these:

-Bombs (contrary to what Xyro says) are amazing against MK. The trick is to use them with the assumption that he will approach even if he isn't. In terms of running out of room with retreating bombs, this only happens if you are dumb. You can lay bombs and DI forward in order to space yourself accordingly, and you can cancel them into dtilts and such.

-IT IS SOOOO EASY TO SPIKE MK OVER AND OVER AGAIN. use your dair early and assume that he will chase becasue he always does. He literally runs into your dair almost everytime off the ledge. Also, use bombs as a barrier when he chases you offstage. As soon as one hits, he drops below you. Assume this will happen and dair early. It works. also bombs > mach tornado

-Charge shot the **** out of that man when he is gayly soaring back to the stage. A ledge drop reverse charge shot hits about 90% of the time and charge shot is > shuttle loop

-Samus can take MK in the air. THe issue is timing and position. I uair the crap out of MK all the time because I know that most of the time MK will dair early for the higher priority hit.

-dtilt ***** MK, nuff said

-MK only gets under zair, again, if you are dumb or just dont know what you are doing. You zair him when he goes airborne, and you zair him on the ground using either fast fall zair or retreating zair. both hit him on the ground easily.

In other words, don't be stupid and you can beat MK REALLY easily. Put it like this: MK players are confident and go into matches assuming they will win, especially against Samus. let them think that, and **** them up.
You're the only samus player I ever knew to not have a hard time with MK
 

Gum

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Its a psychological thing. MK players are people who like to win. Im a player who just wants to woop *** with a character who is "bad." MK players are headlong and go into matches with too much confidence and not enough thought. I am smarter than them. Thus they fail.


Oh yeah plus I play against them non-stop.
 

Hylian

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I also don't have problems with MK really. I can get the best MK in Texas down to 1 stock over 100% consistantly with Samus. You really have to spam up B out of shield. It sucks them in out of any aireal. Just let them hit your shield. Use Utilt a lot, don't zair much, dash attack is great, spam uncharged shots, spike MK out of his up B (Its really easy if you practice it.)

Oh, and to recover, shoot one or two homing missiles depending how high you are. Do this BEFORE you Double Jump. This will force MK to edgeguard from below. When he gets near just use your DJ + AD + Up B to avoid him. If he trys to up B you off, if you do a rising dair you will spike him a lot.
 

Boolossus

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I also don't have problems with MK really. I can get the best MK in Texas down to 1 stock over 100% consistantly with Samus. You really have to spam up B out of shield. It sucks them in out of any aireal. Just let them hit your shield. Use Utilt a lot, don't zair much, dash attack is great, spam uncharged shots, spike MK out of his up B (Its really easy if you practice it.)

Oh, and to recover, shoot one or two homing missiles depending how high you are. Do this BEFORE you Double Jump. This will force MK to edgeguard from below. When he gets near just use your DJ + AD + Up B to avoid him. If he trys to up B you off, if you do a rising dair you will spike him a lot.
How would you suggest practicing the spike?
 

Rohins

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I got a lot of practice vs MK tonight at a smashfest. It's definitely not impossible, just have to practice the matchup.
 

Gum

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I actually wouldn't even say its a hard matchup. I think Olimar and DDD are much harder than MK. Just go into the match and bust his ***. It's not like HE can chain grab you to 1 trillion and then utilt ftw.
 

ADHD

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I actually wouldn't even say its a hard matchup. I think Olimar and DDD are much harder than MK. Just go into the match and bust his ***. It's not like HE can chain grab you to 1 trillion and then utilt ftw.
Samus would **** d3 if it wasn't for that chaingrab
 

Autx

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I truly hope you people stop using bomb......they have no use in this game.
I completely disagree with this statement. I used to get my butt kicked by a good Olimar and IC player ,who would rush and chaingrab me, I didnt even think I could beat him untill I added bombs to my game, even at a charging aggressive opponent bombs break up combos, grabs etc. and throw ppl off leading to follow up moves. I used to think they were useless too, untill certain match ups forced me to use them.
Also mk CAN be hit by z air (like Gum said), whoever said he couldnt be hit is wrong.
 

Boolossus

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Samus would **** d3 if it wasn't for that chaingrab
D3 is actually much easier for me than MK. All they want to do is one thing: grab you. Actively be on the lookout for grabs, and spam your grapple like crazy. Keep your distance, make it impossible for him to approach you.
 

Ravin

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I completely disagree with this statement. I used to get my butt kicked by a good Olimar and IC player ,who would rush and chaingrab me, I didnt even think I could beat him untill I added bombs to my game, even at a charging aggressive opponent bombs break up combos, grabs etc. and throw ppl off leading to follow up moves. I used to think they were useless too, untill certain match ups forced me to use them.
Also mk CAN be hit by z air (like Gum said), whoever said he couldnt be hit is wrong.
I agree with you as well, most people don't know the whole set of bombs yet. Simply dropping one to give yourself a few seconds to regroup is more then enough to not say "They are bad, dont use them"

the double hit of the proxiy mine to explode is nice, most people hear the first hit, let shield go, and it hits them, or even when i know an IC is rushing to CG me, ill drop a mine and blow myself out of it.

I think too many people QQ about the learning curve Samus has. Sorry shes not as user friendly as MK or Snake. :lick:
 

Kingdrom

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Or you could just switch to ZSS and not worry about getting CG'ed by D3. It's actually a pretty easy matchup . Not that D3 should be that hard for Samus anyway, since Zair can easily hit the bloated penguin, keeping him at bay. But if there was a reason to switch in the middle of a match, this would be it.

Samus's bombs are not fitting for every matchup. They're good for preventing chaingrabs before they occur, but then again, not every character has chaingrabs.
 

Xyro77

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I completely disagree with this statement. I used to get my butt kicked by a good Olimar and IC player ,who would rush and chaingrab me, I didnt even think I could beat him untill I added bombs to my game, even at a charging aggressive opponent bombs break up combos, grabs etc. and throw ppl off leading to follow up moves. I used to think they were useless too, untill certain match ups forced me to use them.
Also mk CAN be hit by z air (like Gum said), whoever said he couldnt be hit is wrong.
You must play trashy IC/olimar. Bombs are not good........ ever.
 
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