Samus' best defensive position: On the edge

phanna

Dread Phanna
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#1
1) If they aren't close enough to hit your position on the edge nor directly above it, but are close enough to swat at you if you get on the level, edge-hop neutral B's to make them move forward to try and punish you, or backward to try and get you to do something else.

2) If they are close enough to swat at you if you jump from the edge, but not close enough to attack you while holding the edge, mix up edge-drop re-grabs to make them either move forward to try and punish you, or backward to try and get you to do something else.

3) If they are far enough away that your neutral-B's couldn't hit them, then you can stand up or waveland onto the level no problem.

4) If they try to wait you out by standing on a platform above or near the edge, they're probably going to face away and wait for you to get off the edge and punish with an aerial. Edge-drop re-grab to be mostly invulnerable while you either wait for them to move, or if you want to bait them, stand up in shield and go from there.

5) If they are close enough to the edge to hit you while holding it, but are not waiting right by the edge, they will either be shielding or not. If they are not shielding, wait. If they attack, stand up or drop the edge to avoid it. If they put up their shield, edge-hop a few times and if they're still holding it, they're waiting for you to attack their shield, after which they will try to shield-grab or otherwise punish. Give them what they think they want: edge-hop fair them, but immediately up-b after you l-cancel. With their already worn down shield, the fairs will probably poke, and the screw attack definitely will. Worst case nothing hits and they full-jump out of shield with an aerial. In most cases, this won't happen, and you should just fast-fall as soon as you can during your up-b and and re-grab the edge.

6) If they are so close to the edge that you wouldn't be able to react to avoid an attack in time, they probably won't be shielding, and will either attack or wait and try to crouch-cancel your attack and retaliate with a smash, shine, etc. Again, give them what they want, with an unexpected twist: Edge-hop an up-air. Since they are so close, they will keep getting hit, even by the last part of the uair which will knock them over and back, while you re-grab the edge, with their attempt at a CC-smash or shine being foiled. If they don't CC, they'll get knocked back even before then, and you'll still safely grab the edge.

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I've come back and won many teams matches on my last stock against 2 to even 4 stock just by playing the edge like this. It works even better in singles. Since the great majority of the time, they get burned for trying to edge-guard you at all (once you have the edge), people will eventually get trained to move back and dash-dance well away from the edge and pretty much just let you get back on the level. If you really want to win, and have the lead, just stay on the edge, and further drive them nuts. They'll become more aggressive and make more mistakes, or will just stay back and camp while the timer ticks down to their inevitable loss.

Avoid jumping up or rolling up except when you want to completely throw them off, since you otherwise "never did it". Avoid doing this near the end of a match, since players heavily expect the unexpected.

Attack-up only when they are getting frustrated by your neutral-b edge spam and are coming to the edge to try and attack you out of it. The timing is perfect, and you will avoid their attack while you hit them.

Standing up and shielding is great, except when they like to wait (dash-dance or otherwise) about roll-distance on the level, and just grab you when you do it. Consider edge-hopping a missile cancel and punishing if this is the case.

The biggest problem becomes when people are smart and fast with pivoting. You have to learn how to react quickly if they start reading these strategies and punish accordingly. Don't keep edge-hopping attacks into wavedash back / pivot smashes. If they love doing that, just start standing up in shield more often, or even rolling up and smashing them.

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To recap:

• Super-close enemy, often CCing. Edge-hop uair to regrab edge
• Dangerously close enemy, often shielding. Edge-hop fair, l-cancel, up-b and FF to regrab edge.
• Well-spaced enemy. Edge-hop neutral b blasters (not fully charged) to regrab edge.
• Enemies keeping their distance (such as on a nearby platform). Edge-drop, sweet-spot midair to regrab edge and stall until they move or you decide to take action (stand up or roll up, or waveland right after an invulnerability refresh being the best).
• Anything else and they're trying to give you enough space to comfortably get back on the level. Do so if you feel like it.

Most importantly, start with these basics, make them your own, and see how people react. If you find that your strategy makes one enemy wait a moment and then pivot a smash (often I encounter this against better players), just wait for them to do so, and THEN attack up or edge-hop an aerial. Learn from your mistakes, and learn from theirs.
 

Wii4Mii 99

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 27, 2007
Messages
1,859
#2
Good stuff. This information will be very useful.

If you put in anything about missiles, mind if I put the info in my missile guide?
 

phanna

Dread Phanna
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#3
Good stuff. This information will be very useful.

If you put in anything about missiles, mind if I put the info in my missile guide?
Well like I said, the only time I'd reccommend firing a missile for sure if if they're waiting to run around and grab you when you get back up, but are spaced far enough back that you can't harass them in the meantime, edge-hop a missile cancel and follow it up. Otherwise, the only other time I'd reccommend missiling is if you want to edge-hop and fire one to harass them, but the up-b recovery back to the edge can be dangerous.
 

Wii4Mii 99

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 27, 2007
Messages
1,859
#5
Thanks for the info. Once again, good stuff.

oN tEh EdGe FtW!!1!1!!

Edit: Darn, this would've been better if my post was before REDRAGON's...

Curse you, REDRAGON...
 

phanna

Dread Phanna
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#10
how do you edge hop a missile??

sorry if this is poasted somewhere else??
Edge-hopping a move means:

Release the edge, midair, and perform the move. From there, you either land on the level, recover to the edge, or with some fast moves, re-grab the edge before you fall past it. Samus can edge-hop re-grab uair, bair, neutral-B and (difficultly) nair. Any move that takes more lag (such as missile) requires that you either land on the level while you're doing it, or recover to the edge after you do it.

So you can let go of the edge by hitting down or away on either the control stick or the c-stick. Then you midair by hitting up on the control stick, or X or Y. Then you fire a missile by smashing forward + B. Right as it releases, you'll be passing beneath the edge. Time your up-b recovery to sweet-spot the edge (generally). And that's about it, unless you want to missile-cancel on the level, in whih case you midair TOWARDS the level, and so when you fire the missile you'll cancel it on the ground while you land.
 

Wii4Mii 99

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 27, 2007
Messages
1,859
#11
Yeah well your still yellow :mad:



Redragon
What?

phanna, when you say "defensive position", do you mean that while you're a stock above someone you're facing, just do these edge techniques to stall? Or do you mean when you're getting hammered on by attacks, then do the edge techniques for some mindgames and get in a couple of hits and maybe start a combo?
 

phanna

Dread Phanna
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#12
phanna, when you say "defensive position", do you mean that while you're a stock above someone you're facing, just do these edge techniques to stall? Or do you mean when you're getting hammered on by attacks, then do the edge techniques for some mindgames and get in a couple of hits and maybe start a combo?[/COLOR]
It can be either. You can use it to stay ahead, or regain the lead. It's just defensive: It involves you reacting to them, and punishing them, getting them to do what you want (to start a combo, rack up some damage, or just get back up safely from the edge).
 

Kick

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 26, 2006
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Sunnyvale, CA
#13
what about people who are close to the edge. not close enough for uair, but far enough away that they an still hit you if you try to fair. like a marth camping just outside fair range. you cant edgehop the neutral b either, otherwise its a fsmash to the face.

what then?
 

phanna

Dread Phanna
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#14
what about people who are close to the edge. not close enough for uair, but far enough away that they an still hit you if you try to fair. like a marth camping just outside fair range. you cant edgehop the neutral b either, otherwise its a fsmash to the face.

what then?
Try walking through my advice again, keeping in mind what you're saying:

• Farther than uair range
• Farther than fair range
• Close enough to hit you if you rise from the edge

2) If they are close enough to swat at you if you jump from the edge, but not close enough to attack you while holding the edge, mix up edge-drop re-grabs to make them either move forward to try and punish you, or backward to try and get you to do something else.
 
Joined
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El Monte, California
#15
2) If they are close enough to swat at you if you jump from the edge, but not close enough to attack you while holding the edge, mix up edge-drop re-grabs to make them either move forward to try and punish you, or backward to try and get you to do something else.
What if your opponent isn't fazed by your re-grab fake-outs? What if he decides to stay in that ideal spot and wait?
 

REDRAGON

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 11, 2007
Messages
831
#16
Something that i like to do, to fake people out is to drop down from the edge, then wall jump out then shoot a missle back to the enemy then up-b or grapple.
Its not something to spam but great for mindgames and if they have to much pressure on you...

I have another question: What should you do on the edge if you are fight a falco???

Redragon
 

phanna

Dread Phanna
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#17
What if your opponent isn't fazed by your re-grab fake-outs? What if he decides to stay in that ideal spot and wait?
Well then your shield will be regenerating, the clock will be running down, and you will be getting a slight mental break. So if you continue doing this, and they continue waiting in that exact spot to punish you (which would be effective), mix it up from below the edge. One of the times you let go, wall-jump and fire a missile back at them maybe. Or just let go of the edge, and sweet-spot an air-dodge to throw off their expectations and timing. Or try to throw them off with a get-up you use rarely in such a circumstance (maybe roll). If all else fails, just stand up (not attack up) or waveland up in shield right after refreshing your invulnerability. Consider spot-dodging right away if you think it's necessary, and proceed from there.

Personally, I would just keep re-grabbing the edge. It can't hurt, assuming you've gone at least even in the match so far.
 

HugS

Smash Champion
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#18
I didn't read everything in it's entirety, but from what i did read, I'd just like to say that you are quite right about the samus edge game.

There have been situations where I take someone's first stock and survive with 100% + and have turned the edge survival game into yet another stock advantage further securing my lead. If I chose to, and the risks of a quicker death were less, I could play out entire matches at the edge of the stage and come out victorious. I haven't seen enough samuses exploit this advantage. Good job pointing it out Phanna.
 

Kami-V

Smash Journeyman
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Lake Oswego, OR
#20
Great post Phanna. I actually just picked up your drop -> neutral B a while ago after watching your vids against IC, works great, and the F-air -> B-Up has always been a favorite of mine. The edge IS a great place for Samus.
 

4$ight$

Smash Rookie
Joined
May 2, 2007
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3
#22
i tried for a while yo edge re-grab neutral b i would swear its not possible if didn't see phanna do it in some vids. maybe it's not possible in the old version of the game, either that or im to slow
 

phanna

Dread Phanna
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#23
i tried for a while yo edge re-grab neutral b i would swear its not possible if didn't see phanna do it in some vids. maybe it's not possible in the old version of the game, either that or im to slow
It just takes practice, in the grand scheme of things it's not THAT hard (consider trying to edge-hop nair to re-grab, for instance - as seen at the end of Phanna Phunner).

You should edge-hop a neutral blast one of the two following ways:

1) Hit away on the control stick to let go of the edge, followed very quickly by
2) Hit X or Y to midair, followed very quickly by
3) Hit B to shoot a blast (if it's anything other than COMPLETELY charged, you can re-grab the edge).

- or -

1) Hit away on the c-stick to let go of the edge, followed very quickly by
2) Hit up on the control stick to midair, followed very quickly by
3) Hit B to shoot a blast, yada yada yada.

I prefer the 2nd method because the 3 inputs are right, left, and then right hand, so it's pretty easy to pace yourself and get it fast. The first way is left hand, right hand, right hand, so the 2nd two moves require really fast right-hand movement. The bonus is you won't accidentally back-air with the 1st method, so if you're fast enough to consistently do it, you won't have to worry about that :p
 

xeonoex

Smash Journeyman
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Jun 20, 2005
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#25
The nair just takes a lot of timing. I can do it sometimes. I've got like 5 in a row before. Just do every action as soon as you can. I don't know the number of extra frames you have to do it, but its possible.

I didn't know you could edgehop neutral B's before I read this.
 
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