Samus' Air Release

[KillerJawz]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MUp_MyGz-o

It is inescapable, I assure you.

Thoughts?

 

[NO-IDea]

Set the computer on "Control" and try again.

"Stand" does not work for testing; typical escape methods are used by the cpu.

You are assuming the human player attempts to escape when you pummel. If the human player presses nothing, it may not force an air release at all.

 

[Dragonmaster_Omega]

Intersting. So will they be air released every time after at least one pummel, or does a certain number of pummels make the type of release different?
This is very useful information, i imagine that air-release CS would work on a lot of characters, could be a great tool. I will play around with it next time i play someone.

 

[KillerJawz]

Set the computer on "Control" and try again.

"Stand" does not work for testing; typical escape methods are used by the cpu.

You are assuming the human player attempts to escape when you pummel. If the human player presses nothing, it may not force an air release at all.

Did you not read the description? They don't have to press anything.

It was tested in both control, stop and stand, and the same result happened all three times. I tested this against humans, its 100% legit.

And to answer your question Omega, a certain amount of pummels is fine just as long as it's not before they release.

 

[Dragonmaster_Omega]

Wait, so if you are pummeling when they release it is not garunteed to air-release?

 

[KillerJawz]

Wait, so if you are pummeling when they release it is not garunteed to air-release?

That is the same for every character, if they are just about to release naturally and you pummel, they will ground release. It must be done in advance, this changes the opponents ground release animation to an air release animation EVEN IF THEY ARE TOUCHING THE GROUND, THEY WILL AIR RELEASE (this is much more noticable against Yoshi).

 

[Dragonmaster_Omega]

I did not know that. I guess you learn something new every day.
I think i will do some research on what options this allows Samus, unless, of course, something like that already exists in the Samus Boards.

 

[KillerJawz]

I don't believe it does, so get experimenting and report your results asap.

 

[Dragonmaster_Omega]

Will do. I will start tonight.
Lol at your double post again
I have a feeling that things will be particularly bad for Wario since he has that whole weird air-release thing going.

 

[KillerJawz]

These 502 errors are just destroying me xD.

And also Wario is not effected by this method, but via a edge/ledge he can eat a buffered CS to the face.

 

[Dragonmaster_Omega]

He isn't? I thought it worked on all characters? Is Wario the only exception?

 

[NO-IDea]

Did you not read the description? They don't have to press anything.

It was tested in both control, stop and stand, and the same result happened all three times. I tested this against humans, its 100% legit.

And to answer your question Omega, a certain amount of pummels is fine just as long as it's not before they release.

It is inescapable, I assure you.

That's hardly reassuring. But yes, it does work on control, stand and stop.

I also just tested it on humans. Wasn't successful in the slightest, and only two or three air releases which oddly enough was when she attempted to mash out with only B+A without the control stick. All done on 0%. Didn't bother trying at other percentages considering it'd be a pain to time exactly when to pummel.

Regardless, nice find. Not useful in tourney though.

 

[KillerJawz]

@Omega, the only characters it works on are the ones shown in the video, which are: Yoshi, ICs, Olimar, MK, Kirby, Jiggs, Pikachu, Ness, Lucas, G&W.

Regardless, nice find. Not useful in tourney though.

I have used it in tourny.

 

[NO-IDea]

Viable = you can chain something off the air release.

If you can't, you were better off throwing them for damage, adding a move onto stale counter, positioning, etc.

Your thoughts, Joe? I see you.

 

[Dragonmaster_Omega]

Ah, well that will make my job easier then. Sounds particularly useful against MK, Oli, and G&W.

 

[KillerJawz]

Viable = you can chain something off the air release.

I didn't know that predicting wasn't a viable tactic, silly me.

Also, this is why I asked Omega to test it out.

I also love the fact you've gone from:

It doesnt work to I tried it but it's not viable. You have not even used it in tournament yet, so please, keep all comments about viability out of this until you've actually tried it first hand.

 

[NO-IDea]

MK can double jump/shuttle loop out of air release. GW is the same. Uncertain of the options Olimar has, but honestly forward throw would be better for the MU anyway.

Not trying to downplay this find. If anything, continue research and see if you can find a follow-up for it. Air release research has been done by LanceStern before, but all of the finds he made were escapable via simple means.

EDIT:

@KJ: I haven't changed my position at all. So it works on stand/walk/control. But against a typical human player, it's not anywhere near consistent.

Predicting doesn't make this viable either. A retreating double jump eliminates all of Samus' follow-up options. If you want to state that at least they're in the air now and you can predict from there.... that's exactly what a throw does, but also adds damage.

So not only is it inconsistent, and not even sure why it's inconsistent (seems to be dependent on how you mash out), it's not even a good option compared to her usual throw.

This isn't a shot at your pride or anything. Just telling you how any competitive player would view this find.

 

[Dragonmaster_Omega]

I will test in a number of different ways to be sure. Stand like you had in the video, level 9+evade setting, and then humans. For humans i will likely find someone willing to help me test it on wifi. We will see.
Honestly though, i see no point in using it on ICs unless they are separated or you killed off Nana, but i will still test it nonetheless.

 

[KillerJawz]

MK can double jump/shuttle loop out of air release. GW is the same. Uncertain of the options Olimar has, but honestly forward throw would be better for the MU anyway.

Now keep going.

Not trying to downplay this find.

You clearly are.

If anything, continue research and see if you can find a follow-up for it. Air release research has been done by LanceStern before, but all of the finds he made were escapable via simple means.

True, but Lance didn't do everything, and he only did it in areas where we would air release naturally, this air release may hold different properties and such. Even if nothing comes of this, it's good to know that we do have the option.

 

[NO-IDea]

... lol, and now I make my exit because clearly reason isn't going for ya.

 

[KillerJawz]

... lol, and now I make my exit because clearly reason isn't going for ya.

Indeed it isn't, bai bai.

In the mean time, notice how Jiggs air release is similar to Wario's only higher? I think we may have a free buffered utilt out of it (highly doubt it, but evading jiggs doesn't seem to want to jump out of it)

 

[Xyro77]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MUp_MyGz-o

It is inescapable, I assure you.

Thoughts?

NONE of those are legit on offline REAL players. There is a reason why NO samus player has pulled this off in the 2+ years this game has been out.

 

[KillerJawz]

NONE of those are legit on offline REAL players. There is a reason why NO samus player has pulled this off in the 2+ years this game has been out.

No Samus player has pulled it off because no Samus player has done a single pummel and LEFT the person. It's always two pummels, then throw, or two pummels, then they break out. Look carefully at the animations in which the characters do. Yoshi's feet are normally stood firmly on the ground when he is about to ground release. When he is going to air release, his feet begin to kick back and forth.

I have tested all of these offline EXCLUDING ICs, because who in their right mind would grab ICs? I will gladly provide offline footage of this being executed. These have been tested with and without button mashing (buttons varying from a,b,x,y,control stick, analog stick, r, l and Z) and the same thing happens every time, the air release just happens sooner and sooner every time.

 

[Xyro77]

No Samus player has pulled it off because no Samus player has done a single pummel and LEFT the person. It's always two pummels, then throw, or two pummels, then they break out. Look carefully at the animations in which the characters do. Yoshi's feet are normally stood firmly on the ground when he is about to ground release. When he is going to air release, his feet begin to kick back and forth.

I have tested all of these offline EXCLUDING ICs, because who in their right mind would grab ICs? I will gladly provide offline footage of this being executed.

Wether samus can grab release them or not is NOT the issue. The issue is wether she can land an attack on the foe after they grab release and the answer is NO. Ive tried everything humanly possible offline and with the HIGHEST of level players(gnes/razer/dojo/m2k/ally...ect who can do **** frame perfect) and NOTHING works...buffered or not. Its just not possible. If you EVER pull off something out of a grab release its due to the fault of the foe not reacting fast enough.

 

[KillerJawz]

Wether samus can grab release them or not is NOT the issue. The issue is wether she can land an attack on the foe after they grab release and the answer is NO. Ive tried everything humanly possible offline and with the HIGHEST of level players(gnes/razer/dojo/m2k/ally...ect who can do **** frame perfect) and NOTHING works...buffered or not. Its just not possible. If you EVER pull off something out of a grab release its due to the fault of the foe not reacting fast enough.

We already know that air release to CS works on Wario, correct? No good Samus player has ever gone against a good Jiggs, so as of right now, that one still stands as a possible follow up for us. Also air release to zair is legit (a throw is better to use obv, just throwing that out there).

I am not saying this thing is useful, I am simply saying that an air release on characters who shouldn't be air released is extremely interesting and WORTH investigating further.

 

[Zatchiel]

Interesting find KJ, do we have any guaranteed options out of the release?

 

[KillerJawz]

Interesting find KJ, do we have any guaranteed options out of the release?

No idea, that's why I want people to try and find something out.

 

[Xyro77]

We already know that air release to CS works on Wario, correct? No good Samus player has ever gone against a good Jiggs, so as of right now, that one still stands as a possible follow up for us. Also air release to zair is legit (a throw is better to use obv, just throwing that out there).

CS on wario does not work. Nor does zair on wario. Vids or it didnt happen.

Ive gone against good jiggs and grabbing a character that spends 90% of the time in air is near impossible.

Interesting find KJ, do we have any guaranteed options out of the release?

nothing is guaranteed

 

[KillerJawz]

CS on wario does not work. Nor does zair on wario. Vids or it didnt happen.

They actually both do, clearly you didn't read LanceStern's thread.

Ive gone against good jiggs and grabbing a character that spends 90% of the time in air is near impossible.

Name the Jiggs player? And I didn't say anything about her not being able to be grabbed in a usual match, just the option is always open.

nothing is guaranteed

Vids or there is.

 

[Zatchiel]

What about Screw Attack on Wario?

Also, i'll test, just give me the list of characters it works on.

 

[KillerJawz]

What about Screw Attack on Wario?

Also, i'll test, just give me the list of characters it works on.

The characters who it works on are in the video, and stated earlier in this thread.

 

[Dragonmaster_Omega]

I am already testing it LP. I am almost finished. I have discovered a few things that i will share once i am finished.

 

[KillerJawz]

Good stuff Omega, I'm off to bed now.

I'll give this thread a glance when I awaken.

 

[Xyro77]

They actually both do, clearly you didn't read LanceStern's thread.



Name the Jiggs player? And I didn't say anything about her not being able to be grabbed in a usual match, just the option is always open.



Vids or there is.

Sorry bud but juct cause you do something on a CPU or a ****ty player doesnt mean it exists. Ive played more people than you at a higher level than you so i speak from exp. Untill PROVEN with videos, what you and lance "found" does not exist. And as for the option of grabbing a jiggs......its clear u have not fought a GOOD jiggs. PLEASE try and grab her, u WILL get rested. You may THINK you have the option but if u know ANYTHING about jiggs or if you play a GOOD jiggs you will realize grabbing is NOT an option.

 

[Zatchiel]

Alright, i'll settle for results, but is it legit without a human in control of the opponent?

 

[KillerJawz]

Sorry bud but juct cause you do something on a CPU or a ****ty player doesnt mean it exists. Ive played more people than you at a higher level than you so i speak from exp. Untill PROVEN with videos, what you and lance "found" does not exist. And as for the option of grabbing a jiggs......its clear u have not fought a GOOD jiggs. PLEASE try and grab her, u WILL get rested. You may THINK you have the option but if u know ANYTHING about jiggs or if you play a GOOD jiggs you will realize grabbing is NOT an option.

Will you just name the Jiggs player or kindly remove yourself from this thread before you begin to flame me and the players I have faced?

Okay NOW I'm off to bed <3

 

[Dragonmaster_Omega]

@LP: CPUs no matter on what setting will not jump out of an air-release, so i am forced to make a "rig" that allows me, a human player, to make the character air-released jump at the earliest moment, and the results have been, a bit surprising to say the least, or at least to me.
I have one more character to test, then i will give my results.

This is likely a double post but given the circumstances, i am hoping KJ will look the other way on this.

There are several things i found about Samus's options after a forced air release. The characters the air-release work on are indeed Jigglypuff, Olimar, Pikachu, Ness, Lucas, G&W, MK, Kirby, Yoshi, and ICs.
I tested the air-release method on several characters and it only worked on the above characters, the other short characters like TL and squirtle, were not affected.
When you grab the above characters and pummel them ONCE, or at least timing it so you don't pummel on release, WILL force an air-release, every time. I tested it in multiple situations and it worked every time. When grabbing the above characters normally, their feet will be touching the ground, when Samus pummels once, they get pulled closer and lifted from the ground, you can tell because the struggle animation changes and their feet will dangle, this insures that the natural release will be an air-release.

Onto the specific characters.

Jigglypuff: Grounded screw attack.

Olimar: Buffered FHZair

Pikachu: Buffered SHZair

Ness: Buffered FHZair

Lucas: Buffered SHZair

G&W: Buffered FHZair

MK: Buffered SHZair

Kirby: Buffered FHZair

Yoshi: Buffered FHZair

ICs: Buffered FHZair

Specifics:
Jigglypuff: Jigglypuff's air-release is weird. The only thing that can hit her before she can escape it is a grounded screw-attack, however, you must also buffer a dash so you can actually hit her. Doing the screw attack right after the air release will cause it to miss.

Pikachu, Lucas, and MK: These three have something unique about their air-releases. For one, when they air-release, they fall very quickly. The only way to hit them before they can react is to buffer a SHZair, however, the window of time you can do so is very small, especially on MK, so you have to buffer almost perfectly. Another note about the three, they come very close to the ground before they recover, I tried to see if CS was an option, but while it turned out to be one, it is situational. On MK, he barely gets missed if he manages to buffer a jump right as he recovers from the AR, but it is likely that most MK won't know this and they won't, but it is still hard to land. If MK DI's down and holds the shield, the CS WILL be shielded.
Lucas and Pikachu are very similar to MK in this but slightly different. They can only avoid the CS by jumping the moment they can, the CS barely misses, however, if they try to land, they WILL get hit be the CS.

Ness: He can jump before the buffered zair hits him, but he still gets hit.

Yoshi: Yoshi can also jumps before the zair hits him, but this gives him super-armor, he still takes damage, but doesn't get stunned.

Side Note 1: All the characters that have FHZair as an option, it is better to DI towards them so Zair hits earlier, however, if your spacing i good, you can get a garunteed tipper zair every time.

Side Note 2: Something i discovered that really surprised me, is that when recovering from an air-release, you can actually jump, faster than you can AD. Strange yes, but that is what i got every time. This was first seen with Yoshi, when jumping at the earliest moment, he was still hit but had super armor from the double jump. When attempting to AD as soon as possible, he was hit, every time.


I understand that some may be skeptical and ask for more proof, sadely, my word is all you have to go by for now. If someone is wiliing to help me make a video showing frame-by-frame data, i would be much obliged.
Well, that is about all i discovered with this. I hope you found this interesting. And for those who want more solid evidence, i will see if i can find someone to help me with frame data videos.

And that is pretty much it.

 

[DtJ Composer]

I feel like if our only real option is to zair out of grab release then we'd be better off throwing.

I feel like there might be some other things that can be accomplished from this (maybe in reads/mindgames?) but right now it doesn't look like release>move is one of them.

 

[Dragonmaster_Omega]

That's is also how i feel, but it may be of use if used near the edge, then you are likely to make them waste their second jump (except Yoshi) and that could lead to an easy gimp.

 

[Xyro77]

I feel like if our only real option is to zair out of grab release then we'd be better off throwing.

I feel like there might be some other things that can be accomplished from this (maybe in reads/mindgames?) but right now it doesn't look like release>move is one of them.

This is likely a double post but given the circumstances, i am hoping KJ will look the other way on this.

There are several things i found about Samus's options after a forced air release. The characters the air-release work on are indeed Jigglypuff, Olimar, Pikachu, Ness, Lucas, G&W, MK, Kirby, Yoshi, and ICs.
I tested the air-release method on several characters and it only worked on the above characters, the other short characters like TL and squirtle, were not affected.
When you grab the above characters and pummel them ONCE, or at least timing it so you don't pummel on release, WILL force an air-release, every time. I tested it in multiple situations and it worked every time. When grabbing the above characters normally, their feet will be touching the ground, when Samus pummels once, they get pulled closer and lifted from the ground, you can tell because the struggle animation changes and their feet will dangle, this insures that the natural release will be an air-release.

Onto the specific characters.

Jigglypuff: Grounded screw attack.

Olimar: Buffered FHZair

Pikachu: Buffered SHZair

Ness: Buffered FHZair

Lucas: Buffered SHZair

G&W: Buffered FHZair

MK: Buffered SHZair

Kirby: Buffered FHZair

Yoshi: Buffered FHZair

ICs: Buffered FHZair

Specifics:
Jigglypuff: Jigglypuff's air-release is weird. The only thing that can hit her before she can escape it is a grounded screw-attack, however, you must also buffer a dash so you can actually hit her. Doing the screw attack right after the air release will cause it to miss.

Pikachu, Lucas, and MK: These three have something unique about their air-releases. For one, when they air-release, they fall very quickly. The only way to hit them before they can react is to buffer a SHZair, however, the window of time you can do so is very small, especially on MK, so you have to buffer almost perfectly. Another note about the three, they come very close to the ground before they recover, I tried to see if CS was an option, but while it turned out to be one, it is situational. On MK, he barely gets missed if he manages to buffer a jump right as he recovers from the AR, but it is likely that most MK won't know this and they won't, but it is still hard to land. If MK DI's down and holds the shield, the CS WILL be shielded.
Lucas and Pikachu are very similar to MK in this but slightly different. They can only avoid the CS by jumping the moment they can, the CS barely misses, however, if they try to land, they WILL get hit be the CS.

Ness: He can jump before the buffered zair hits him, but he still gets hit.

Yoshi: Yoshi can also jumps before the zair hits him, but this gives him super-armor, he still takes damage, but doesn't get stunned.

Side Note 1: All the characters that have FHZair as an option, it is better to DI towards them so Zair hits earlier, however, if your spacing i good, you can get a garunteed tipper zair every time.

Side Note 2: Something i discovered that really surprised me, is that when recovering from an air-release, you can actually jump, faster than you can AD. Strange yes, but that is what i got every time. This was first seen with Yoshi, when jumping at the earliest moment, he was still hit but had super armor from the double jump. When attempting to AD as soon as possible, he was hit, every time.


I understand that some may be skeptical and ask for more proof, sadely, my word is all you have to go by for now. If someone is wiliing to help me make a video showing frame-by-frame data, i would be much obliged.
Well, that is about all i discovered with this. I hope you found this interesting. And for those who want more solid evidence, i will see if i can find someone to help me with frame data videos.

And that is pretty much it.

@LP: CPUs no matter on what setting will not jump out of an air-release, so i am forced to make a "rig" that allows me, a human player, to make the character air-released jump at the earliest moment, and the results have been, a bit surprising to say the least, or at least to me.
I have one more character to test, then i will give my results.

That's is also how i feel, but it may be of use if used near the edge, then you are likely to make them waste their second jump (except Yoshi) and that could lead to an easy gimp.

WOW i think i understand why No-idea gave up. None of you listen nor believe fact when its placed in front of your face.