Sakurwhy vent: ZSS > Samus

[Glyphagos]

Japan and America have big booty followings.

I saw that in fans of Brawl, and I see it was taken in and used as a marketing point in Smash 4.
Like it or not, those alt costumes were made for the booty.

You cannot deny nor counter the power of the booty
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 

[Afro Smash]

I dont deny its fan service, but it's not a marketing point anymore than any other Character is.

Also I never disagreed he spent more time on ZSS, just that her sex appeal had anything to do with it

 

[Hapajin]

Although I agree that Samus still has some untapped potential and she is not the terrible character that pessimist Samus mains claim she is, I think she still needs significant improvements, regardless of her current strengths. As we learn new Samus tech, other, more viable characters are also developing. At the rate the patches are going for Samus, she won't be able to keep up with most of the rest of the cast. I kinda think a lot of matches that result in Samus wins are due to lack of matchup knowledge, and while its a nice advantage for now, its not a gimmick I want to rely on. While I'm grateful for all the work current Samus pros have put into the character, I still have hope in the patch system for Samus, and I don't want to blindly believe Samus is okay where she's at. I mean, look at Melee or PM Samus, who are superior in so many aspects compared to Smash 4 Samus, yet she retains logical weaknesses in those games, and is far from overpowered.

 

[Squaddle]

Hold on, hold on, that's a bit of an exaggeration. While I definitely agree ZSS starts to hit her stride in this range and everything she does is easier to execute, we actually have very respectable combos and tech chases within the 45 - 120 range.
If you haven't seen my Samus combo video yet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kc4TQd5rGes

Past 45% the simple up-tilt -> CS or up-B and d-air -> CS or up-B are very damaging and can kill.
Up-air to d-air, up-air to CS I still struggle to land in game but they are non-techable.
All the super-missile -> CS cannot be teched and are very effective kill combos.
I think @ Afro Smash and @KayJay are the only ones with sufficiently good frame perfect RAR to pull off a d-throw -> RAR b-air combo with any reliability.
N-air produces charge shot tech chases in that range, z-air does as well at the high end. F-tilt was nerfed but still works reliably out of a pivot to tech chase at the kill percent. Even jab2 and ledge and getup attack against fast fallers.
Sourspot up-air -> jab -> cancel -> f-smash I don't think anyone is yet proficient enough to use in game but it definitely sweet spot kills circa 100.
At very high % there are a bunch of z-air, jab and sour-spot kill combos out of f-smash and up-B which basically trade getting a short fast hit in for the big finisher.

None of us are any good at this sort of detailed play right now, even the best Samus players I know of are still fragmented in their arsenal of options the character is technically capable of, good at some things but not others (myself definitely included), so that's why I'm still withholding judgement on the whole of the character and remain overall positive. I still struggle with basic things like picking the right reactive option out of a SH-AD, n-air, b-air, up-air or cancel into z-air. My skill is just not there yet. Above and beyond Sakurai simply trolling us, I would love to sit him down and ask "Why? Why is it so damn complicated? Did you do this on purpose?". Again, I'm not sure (there might be violence in that encounter...). The ZSS stuff, it's obviously intentional.

I fully agree @Octavium that ZSS has subtleties to her, and I don't want to diminish efforts of great players. The ZSS gameplay is now at the level of optimization from your description, we're still literally figuring things out, optimization is still on the horizon.

For my own trivia can you guys please provide links to the following:
@ SpandexBullets "In that regard, Zero confirmed afterwards that they actually meant ZSS"
@ Squaddle "If you look at early gameplay videos, she used to have relentless missiles as her default missile, which are really, REALLY good, and I believe she used to have her old sexkick nair."
If not, no worries, but I'd love to see some additional evidence for this for my own curiosity.

Sure, I'll look into it. Apparently you can see it in early gameplay footage and screenshots, it's something I heard from one of my friends who followed the smash 4 prerelease info religiously since it was announced at E3, was just repeating what I heard.

 

[Squaddle]

HMRMMM well it seems my friend was full of it

earliest gameplay of samus shows her homing missiles are pretty similar to what we've got now, though her super missile used to have less flashy effects, move slow, and had WAAAAY less ending lag

Can't find anything on her nair, though. dunno if that bit's true or not either.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Thanks so much @ Squaddle . Actually what you've dug up is more than sufficient to explain everything. At 2:08 of your video link they do a close up on Samus firing a homing missile as well. Just look at that for a moment.
You can see, in great detail, that Samus has a MUCH better homing missile end-lag. When Samus shoots a missile her stance shifts, her back foot becomes her front foot.
You can do a side-by-side with current Wii U version and just look at how long Samus keeps her back foot in the front. It's dramatically longer in the current version, my guess is 50% longer. Like 40 frames going to 60 frames is my estimate.

So the missiles got butchered before release. Totally hack job butchered. I'm half tempted to break out the capture card and count frames. A little later on, there's a side by side with villager, should be easy to do.

 

[Reydiance]

So I found some gameplay footage of E3 Samus. Interesting things to note:
2:12 d-tilt dmg was 14, knockback was probably the same as in Brawl
3:03 n-air was always the double kick
3:29 b-air had WAY less ending lag
I also heard Screw attack was much more potent as a KO move. So yeah, she seems to be sightly nerfed after E3.

 

[Squaddle]

Thanks so much @ Squaddle . Actually what you've dug up is more than sufficient to explain everything. At 2:08 of your video link they do a close up on Samus firing a homing missile as well. Just look at that for a moment.
You can see, in great detail, that Samus has a MUCH better homing missile end-lag. When Samus shoots a missile her stance shifts, her back foot becomes her front foot.
You can do a side-by-side with current Wii U version and just look at how long Samus keeps her back foot in the front. It's dramatically longer in the current version, my guess is 50% longer. Like 40 frames going to 60 frames is my estimate.

So the missiles got butchered before release. Totally hack job butchered. I'm half tempted to break out the capture card and count frames. A little later on, there's a side by side with villager, should be easy to do.

np man, its good to clear things up. Yeah missiles are bugging me like crazy, I posted a dumb video in the general samus thread about the worst part about them, I think: before and after the missile fires she's stuck in a pose that extends out her hurtbox like crazy, so that horrible startup and ending lag means the move's so easily punished and straight up doesn't clash correctly with opponent attacks. Then you have characters like yoshi, villager, and toon link can just spam for days without consequence... bah.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Nice find @ Reydiance .
So the d-tilt got nerfed from 14 damage to 12, the n-air you can also see in that video got nerfed from 9% to 8% on the forward kick, 8% to 7% back kick and the hitbox looks better on reverse too but that could be placebo.
Those are pretty significant nerfs, d-tilt very significant given the raw number of d-tilts we all spit out 2% is massive. The nair nerf is nonsensical, like wtf?
I tested b-air and I don't think the move got changed, I can still get out 4 of them in their jumping pattern.
@ Squaddle yeah I've watched your video a few times now since you posted it for a good laugh. The homing missile not breaking the mechakoopa and then the mechakoopa eating your CS is just... sad...

I think for my next video I'll put together a montage of all the nerfs we have found to try and explain Sakurai's statement. Any suggestions on a title? "Shame on you Sakurai" ?

 

[Glyphagos]

Nice find @ Reydiance .
So the d-tilt got nerfed from 14 damage to 12, the n-air you can also see in that video got nerfed from 9% to 8% on the forward kick, 8% to 7% back kick and the hitbox looks better on reverse too but that could be placebo.
Those are pretty significant nerfs, d-tilt very significant given the raw number of d-tilts we all spit out 2% is massive. The nair nerf is nonsensical, like wtf?
I tested b-air and I don't think the move got changed, I can still get out 4 of them in their jumping pattern.
@ Squaddle yeah I've watched your video a few times now since you posted it for a good laugh. The homing missile not breaking the mechakoopa and then the mechakoopa eating your CS is just... sad...

I think for my next video I'll put together a montage of all the nerfs we have found to try and explain Sakurai's statement. Any suggestions on a title? "Shame on you Sakurai" ?

Shame on you Sakurai sounds like a good name. I recommend though to try to keep lightly on the subject of "ZSS Favoritism"

 

[Afro Smash]

 

[Douglas Jay Ganon]

I totally agree. Playing Samus should feel like the end of a real Metroid game where I'm able to take on anything. She should be able to shoot as fast as Fox, and many of her melee weapons like the Speed Booster, Shine Spark, Screw Attack and all of Other M's melee finishers are under-represented. Worse, although they modeled her after Other M in Smash 4, they didn't give her anything from it. ZSS has the mobility and falls faster despite being lighter, Samus can't use her Sense Move animations (where it literally shows her not rolling to dodge something) in place of her slow morph ball (which is also under represented), she can't charge while moving, and she can't use her actual melee moves in Smash (shoving her gun in people's face and shooting, double windmill kicks, spinning people with her arm, not the grapple beam) and her tether is less precise than ZSS because of the way Zairs work in hitstun offstage. I can understand not being able to fly with Screw Attack, but Sakurai messed up its trajectory ( it's supposed to go sideways in an arc, not only straight up) and took four games to figure out that it's supposed to kill people instead of slightly toss them. ZSS also has the Flip Jump, which leaves her temporarily intangible while gaining an extra jump, an automatic footstool PLUS a strong spike. ...What? Of all moves to give someone who's canonically weaker than Samus, you give her one that's better than all her suits?

TLDR: Even if you hated Other M, you know that in it Samus basically had ZSS's agility and ZSS handled like Samus does on here. I could list even more gripes, but as a Metroid fan I'm sorely disappointed with her representation in Smash.

^ THIS. So much truth.

Samus is and athlete in every way. Even with her power suit. She has almost exterminated entire species, dealt with extreme situations. She is as swift as a bird and strong as a tank. She's skillfull and patient. She's the most badass woman of videogame's history.

I agree about changing her moveset. And his final smash should be the Phazon State, where she shoots loads of phazon shots and ends up with a phazom super missile (srsly, that crap was awesome)

 

[Varia31]

Not to mention she's incredibly strong...

Spoiler

Yeah, as much as I feel very comfortable with her traditional moveset, I would have liked to see more stuff from her actual games implemented. Like with her grabs, her back throw could be swinging the enemy around one handed and throwing them, similar to Mario, but the way she throws Ki-Hunters in Other M is what I'm thinking. Her up-throw could have been her lightly tossing the opponent above her, then doing a handstand kick to send them flying, identical to how she kicks Griptians off of her if they pin her down. Down throw could have been Lethal Strike: pin them down when her foot, and then point blank shot, or use the Vs Ghalmanian method and grab them in a choke hold while lying down, and then shoot. Forward throw could just be a reverse version of back-throw, or just something more standard (maybe even a nice left hook similar to Fox's forward throw). Also, I can't help but be a bit irked by the fact that Samus has the strength to throw giant lava whales across huge rooms and kill them, but yet she has some of the weakest throws in Sm4sh.

I don't know why she can't charge her shot in the air. I understand not moving, but there's no reason why she shouldn't be able to charge in the air. For her roll, she needs her Sense Move. She finally had a literal dodge maneuver to use in her games (other than the strafe dashing in the Prime Trilogy), but it doesn't get used. It would work so much better and be nice and quick. Heck, even Link got his trademark back-hop for his backwards roll, so why can't Samus have her Sense Move? Morph Ball needs to be a crawl like in Project M. Seriously, I get not letting her crawl normally since she's in a bulky Power Suit, but that's literally what the point of the Morph Ball was.

And I agree on the Final Smash. As cool as Zero Laser is, it was completely made-up, and now there's a lot of people not as familar with Metroid that think Samus actually has that in her games. I would have preferred a canon ability, like a Power Bomb, or a ship bombing run like Metroid Prime 3, or as @ Douglas Jay Ganon said, her Phazon induced Hyper mode. I could just see her doing a quicker version of the Crystal Flash that was used as ZSS' FS in Brawl and BAM, she has her PED Suit, and then she enters Hyper Mode. In this state she's invulnerable just like in Prime 3, dealing out major damage with Hyper Beam, and then could use her Hyper Missiles to KO with. Would be so much fun to put her renowned firepower to work, especially if it's from one of her strongest showings.

TL;DR
Like I said, I like her traditional moveset, but I would like to see her play more like she does in her own games. She's supposed to be this insanely quick, agile, and strong superhuman wearing a Power Suit of space magic and tech, with overkill firepower and the durability of a juggernaut. Instead, we get slow, cumbersome, campy playstyle Samus. That's not to say I don't enjoy using her, and she's still my main and feels good to use (it's not like she has to be campy, but she tends to be in this game), and she can do some real damage on top of that, but it's not really how Samus should be in my eyes. I'm not asking for her to be overpowered or cheap, but she could at least play more faithfully to her own games like other characters like Mega Man do. I'm just tired of seeing one of Nintendo's (and really gaming's) strongest characters be treated this way.

To end on a higher note here, I made a montage of some of her combat techniques from Other M a few years ago.

Spoiler

 

[LRodC]

If it was the opposite, people would be saying "Why is Zero Suit Samus so weak compared to regular Samus? Is Sakurai trying to say that sexy women can't fight? Why was she even added?"

There's no winner no matter what.

 

[KenMeister]

If it was the opposite, people would be saying "Why is Zero Suit Samus so weak compared to regular Samus? Is Sakurai trying to say that sexy women can't fight? Why was she even added?"

There's no winner no matter what.

Or he could go for a balance between the two like say PM did. Lol

 

[LRodC]

Or he could go for a balance between the two like say PM did. Lol

That wasn't the point of my post though. Sakurai doesn't balance based on the BS people are saying in this thread. ZSS just happens to have more tools to succeed due to how she's made and it makes sense to focus more on her since she was separated from Samus for the first time. Do I think they should buff Samus? Absolutely. But some people seem to be crying foul for stupid reasons.

 

[KenMeister]

I think it should be balanced to where one character could cover the other's bad MU, kind of like Mario and Luigi for example, where Mario gets in better whereas Luigi can play defensively better.

 

[Fancykong]

That wasn't the point of my post though. Sakurai doesn't balance based on the BS people are saying in this thread. ZSS just happens to have more tools to succeed due to how she's made and it makes sense to focus more on her since she was separated from Samus for the first time. Do I think they should buff Samus? Absolutely. But some people seem to be crying foul for stupid reasons.

Protip: Calling people's opinions "bs" and "stupid" doesn't foster positive discussion. Especially when you don't list examples of the opinions you're speaking of.

 

[LRodC]

Protip: Calling people's opinions "bs" and "stupid" doesn't foster positive discussion. Especially when you don't list examples of the opinions you're speaking of.

Unfounded reasons in my opinion: Saying Zero Suit Samus was made better on purpose because of sex appeal. Saying that Sakurai hates the Metroid franchise and wanted to make Samus worse on purpose to sabotage them and make the typically weak character much better due to how she looks. Due to Metroid being not as popular in Japan, he decided to make Samus worse.

Those are the reasons I was quoting. They're completely baseless. I don't think Sakurai balances that way, and he had an interview about this recently to silence those who were accusing him of it.

 

[OllyD]

Quite personally I really like how Samus isn't as "good" as ZSS.

- It feels better to get good with the character that is deemed "worse" than the other. Not only will you gain more respect in local communities but you'll probably become a better player in the process. A good example of this is Nairo. I will always be more impressed with his Robin and Zelda than his ZS.

- I honestly think it was designed this way to appeal to Metroid fans. Because the hardcore Metroid fans that have history with Samus are most likely going to favour Suited-Samus based on nostalgia so they will want maybe more of a challenge. They won't just pick their character based on "sexual appeal" but more personal reasons.

-- In my personal opinion Samus can be played just as good as ZS. The trick with Samus is to get very used to her versatility and use it to your advantage. I've used both and after putting time in I can do far more damage with Samus than ZS.

 

[Afro Smash]

I think regardless of how much time put in with Samus she'll never have as easy a time racking up damage that ZSS does, both played at their max potential though the gap isn't too big imo

 

[LRodC]

It doesn't help also that Samus is a more advanced character to learn and master compared to Zero Suit who's probably one of the simplest to learn and get good with. I feel like if ZSS wasn't named "Samus", people wouldn't care too much.

Samus seems to me like a character with a lot of good tools (z-air, screw attack, charge shot, back air, up tilt) but some caveats of her other tools hold her back as a character at a high level, such as her jab, her missile lag, her forward tilt just being... weird, etc. I'll be using her more to figure her out as a character and seeing exactly where she's good and where she needs improvement. I don't main her so I can't speak for her too much.

 

[Hark17ball]

@ OllyD Ill agree. The last tournament I went to I came in 4th out of 70+ people. Beating Pit, Falcon, Link, Luigi, Peach as Samus. I had people talking to me all day about her and rooting for me it was an awesome experience.

 

[SRUFUS3D]

In brawl Samus was one of my secondaries. Adore the Metroid series, Prime is my favourite game of all time.
However I play her Sometimes in Sm4sh , I feel like she needs some SERIOIS BUFFS. No missile canceling hurt her gameplay, and she just need to be better in all departments.
And to the OP, Whining on the ground that Samus is powerful in the games and therefore be power scaled to her counter part and everyone is not the way to go. It is like complaining because Kirby is one the MOST OP characters in Nintendo if not gaming altogether... He should be faser and stronger than everyone in the game, to the point he can oneshot everthing with a slap. Yet of course he is an underwhelming character too, reduced to beginner's dummy and a noobs tool. -_-
And please don't use sexualisation as an excuse, that is whole other can of worms that doesn't belong on these forums. You're encouraging unnesseccary femenism we don't need that...

But this thread is like dead any way so what am I doing...