Sakurwhy vent: ZSS > Samus

[SpandexBullets]

Uh...here's some moveset buffs I just chalked up:
• Dash attack has matching hitboxes for the whole move
• Sweetspot at the start of the move has more knockback
• Huge sourspot for the end of the attack has very weak BKB and pops opponents up at a Sakurai angle
• Jab connects
• Jab has much more hitstun, combos into d-tilt and u-tilt
• U-tilt pops opponents up vertically with more hitstun, no longer meteors grounded opponents
• f-tilt has more horizontal knockback
• Up-Smash has lower hitbox placement
• F-smash's hitboxes match animation
• D-smash is stronger, more horizontal knockback
• Dair hitboxes match animation, bigger sourspot, semi-spike
• up-air links better, ends faster
• Chargeshot finishes charging 17 frames earlier
• Missiles have much less cool down
• 3 missiles at a time, travel MUCH faster
• Super missiles have much more BKB and KBG
• Bombs explode upon contact

• Slightly faster dash
• Slightly faster falling (melee) and airspeed
• Rolling animation sped up
• Zero Misson alt
• Prime alt

Yeah that seems fair.

 

[Hark17ball]

• Dash attack has matching hitboxes for the whole move
• Jab connects
• Up-Smash has lower hitbox placement
• F-smash's hitboxes match animation
• Slightly faster dash
D-Smash better DMG/connection.

Just this alone would make her way scarier.

 

[SpandexBullets]

• Dash attack has matching hitboxes for the whole move
• Jab connects
• Up-Smash has lower hitbox placement
• F-smash's hitboxes match animation
• Slightly faster dash
D-Smash better DMG/connection.

Just this alone would make her way scarier.

That's melee samus, minus the dash

 

[SpandexBullets]

How was it marketed as a selling point for the game? People buy Smash for iconic characters and the fun gameplay, no one would of bought it because 1/50 characters looked sexy, nor did they try to use it as a selling point. And you're not explaining why having a sexualised version of Samus beat her power suit form is an issue, if its with logic then this is a videogame, a non canon videogame at that, you shouldn't come in to it expecting logic, if your issue is with a sexualised fighter also be powerful, why is that an issue?

PM me if you want to talk about this, I don't want to go completely off-topic, and you want me to explain a lot you don't seem to be grasping.

 

[Afro Smash]

No but you see this is the topic, the issue you have is a sexualised character outperforming a non sexualised one, you're yet to explain why that's an issue

 

[SpandexBullets]

No but you see this is the topic, the issue you have is a sexualised character outperforming a non sexualised one, you're yet to explain why that's an issue

Because it's the same character, and that's a problem when Samus is nintendo's flagship "strong female character".

Really though, you should see the problem at the core of their differences, but you don't. I can't help you with that.

 

[Afro Smash]

The only reason to have a problem with their differences in terms of viability is if they're done on purpose, there's nothing to suggest this is the case, so there's no reason to have a problem. Also strong characters can also have sex appeal without it taking away from their strength

 

[SpandexBullets]

Many sighs. Too many, in fact.

You really aren't getting the point here, but whatever.

Just hope she gets buffed.

 

[Glyphagos]

Many sighs. Too many, in fact.

You really aren't getting the point here, but whatever.

Just hope she gets buffed.

I think you're just a bit stubborn to see it from his view.

 

[SpandexBullets]

I...ok.
Forget the whole 'sexy characters can be strong'. Not an issue here. If it was...well, this would be a MUCH longer thread.

My issue is that Sakurai spent significantly more development time on ZSS than Samus.
That's a kick in the teeth.

 

[Afro Smash]

Thats because Samus has been an established character since 64, Zero Suit was initially just an extension of Samus in Brawl, but in 4 became completely her own character, so Sakurai put in more work to make her unique from Samus, not to make her better than Samus for some arbitrary reason

 

[Octavium]

I actually heard that soon before smash 4's 3DS release, Sakurai thought that Samus was the strongest character in the game because of her camping nature could force the opponent to have to play predictably, also because Playing campy was easier than approaching a camper.

So he probably feels he's playing with fire when he tries to buff Samus.

My issue is that Sakurai spent significantly more development time on ZSS than Samus.
That's a kick in the teeth.

I agree that's a pretty big kick in the teeth, especially considering PM has done much more fanservice to the people than Sakurai ever would. They released the actual Light/Dark/Fusion suits as skins and they added a MORPH BALL CRAWL(Makes a billion times more sense than the morph ball's current integration).

Could it be that Zamus>Samus in terms of development time is actually more of a Japanese culture thing? Metroid games don't sell very well in japan relative to the west, so it could be that Nintendo is milking the fact that Samus is female to increase sales, japan ''Samus'' fans are probably for the most part... just booty fans.

If its actually the case, than its a cold hard dagger the Metroid series got in the back, considering Metroid's dark times these days, we didn't need that.

 

[SpandexBullets]

I actually heard that soon before smash 4's 3DS release, Sakurai thought that Samus was the strongest character in the game because of her camping nature could force the opponent to have to play predictably, also because Playing campy was easier than approaching a camper.

So he probably feels he's playing with fire when he tries to buff Samus.



I agree that's a pretty big kick in the teeth, especially considering PM has done much more fanservice to the people than Sakurai ever would. They released the actual Light/Dark/Fusion suits as skins and they added a MORPH BALL CRAWL(Makes a billion times more sense than the morph ball's current integration).

Could it be that Zamus>Samus in terms of development time is actually more of a Japanese culture thing? Metroid games don't sell very well in japan relative to the west, so it could be that Nintendo is milking the fact that Samus is female to increase sales, japan ''Samus'' fans are probably for the most part... just booty fans.

If its actually the case, than its a cold hard dagger the Metroid series got in the back, considering Metroid's dark times these days, we didn't need that.

I think you mean when Sakurai was on stage at the invitational and declared that all the players there thought Samus was the best.

In that regard, Zero confirmed afterwards that they actually meant ZSS.

 

[SpandexBullets]

Thats because Samus has been an established character since 64, Zero Suit was initially just an extension of Samus in Brawl, but in 4 became completely her own character, so Sakurai put in more work to make her unique from Samus, not to make her better than Samus for some arbitrary reason

You aren't getting it.

yoor jest NAT

 

[Glyphagos]

Could it be that Zamus>Samus in terms of development time is actually more of a Japanese culture thing? Metroid games don't sell very well in japan relative to the west, so it could be that Nintendo is milking the fact that Samus is female to increase sales, japan ''Samus'' fans are probably for the most part... just booty fans.

Hold the phone there, Don't you think you're being a little prejudice/bigoted in just assuming every Japanese National is in it for the booty and that Westerners also aren't in it for the booty/They're in it for the series? Nobody's perfect but we can't just go off assuming everyone is like that just cause the majority stinks like ****.

 

[Afro Smash]

I guess we'll agree to disagree then

 

[Octavium]

Hold the phone there, Don't you think you're being a little prejudice/bigoted in just assuming every Japanese National is in it for the booty and that Westerners also aren't in it for the booty/They're in it for the series? Nobody's perfect but we can't just go off assuming everyone is like that just cause the majority stinks like ****.

Just like you? Actually assuming I meant they're all like that?

''Could it be..'', ''probably'', ''relative''?
Please read my worlds well before jumping on me like this.

Just because I've left out westerners from my paragraph, is so far from meaning I think we're sinless from that ****. I'm sure we're even worse, we just don't seem to be as vocal/honest about it.

 

[DungeonMaster]

So I've been avoiding wading into the rage/vent thread but here goes relating to the OP.

From a design perspective ZSS is built differently. I'll reserve judgement until the end, and simply highlight differences in design.

Samus' up-air combos into itself and other moves at low/mid percents. ZSS' up-air combos into itself at considerably higher percents, and very specifically within kill range into her up-B.
Samus needs to land an early high damage combo to bring her simple jab combo online, if she fails, she will generally struggle.
ZSS needs to land a boost kick kill combo, if she fails and percents get too high she will generally struggle.
All of Samus' combos require a high level of skill and awareness of the percents to land, they are generally small window because of the growth of knockback and the small hitboxes. Up-tilt -> d-tilt is different than up-tilt -> f-smash is different than up-tilt -> SH CS and they are all separated by roughly 20%. The simple d-throw -> up-air will not true combo, ever. You have to input a fairly tight initial dash to get it to work, and consequently to get the most out of your d-throw.
None of ZSS' combos require a high level of skill, only a vague understanding of percentage range, rage, staleness, is good enough because they are very broad. Paralyzer / d-smash -> whatever is trivial, anytime, anywhere. There is some small amount of skill in landing the flip kick spikes but within a few hours, you'll know how to do it. D-throw -> follow ups are likewise trivial, there's no special inputs required like an initial dash, because the initial bounce is high and growth of the d-throw is low relative to the mobility of ZSS.

ZSS' basic gameplay is formulaic. You can be very successful in a simple for-glory format with a bunch of fast-falling short-hops spitting out n-air, z-air and paralyzer while fishing for grabs. Many opponents can't keep up with the basic formula, and I have to admit when I first started playing I struggled against it as well.
Samus' gameplay does not have a formula. People say she has a "bad neutral". The homing missile is a terrible projectile, the SH into fast-fall is not sufficiently fast to zone with z-air consistently against a wide range of targets.
You're forced to play with all your tools rather than a set prescription. Without a consistent prescription people do not see a consistent path to victory and acquiring the matchup knowledge to take on a huge and varied cast requires a lot of trial and error and a corresponding large amount of frustration.

In terms of basic trading blows, ZSS has a large amount of priority. The moves are generally very fast with slight disjoints and her thin hurbox effectively avoids poorly timed attacks. Very little cooldown beyond grab.
In basic trading Samus fairs poorly. Attacks themselves are actually quite fast, but only a handful of moves with low cooldown. It's not really the speed that is the problem, it's the postage stamp hitboxes are almost all directly beside broad hurtboxes and a miss timed or miss-spaced attack typically means punishment. Samus's disjoints, the up-smash and f-air all require skill to use, and they can still be beaten routinely by other disjoints.
This is another element that will frustrate the player.

So where is the balance? I could be, particularly after last few patches, be readily convinced Sakurai is simply an asshole. He basically trolled Samus mains at E3 (heresay ignored), and continues to troll us today. I'm borderline convinced this is true, particularly given other design decisions within the patches. I'm particularly pissed off at the design decision that Samus' up-tilt and d-air combo starters are not guaranteed, by design.
Here's my take on the balance.

Samus does much more damage. Samus combos are very, very damaging. Samus can theoretically kill ZSS in 2 hits.
Samus lives much longer and cannot be true comboed easily. Most high % true combos as registered in training mode are actually avoidable tight strings or can be DI negated. ZSS doesn't actually have kill confirms out of up-air, n-air and the flip kicks are not real, the boost kick is a much much more difficult thing to kill with when people understand how to fall out of boost kick.
Samus tech chases are very real.
ZSS struggles with shields, particularly to get the kill. Samus will simply break your shield if you try shield games.

Do I think ZSS is "balanced" right now? No. Boost kick should not kill as early as it does for a lightweight and the paralyzer combos should be made less infantile simple to execute. The ranges at which up-air combos into itself I also think is a design mistake. ZSS falls into the same category as the other "top tiers" like Sheik and Rosalina. They are not balanced. The pro players like and play these characters because they are fundamentally flawed designs which they can exploit.
Is Samus "balanced" right now? I don't know yet. I haven't mastered the character, which will take more time. Why Sakurai made life so hard and technical remains to be understood.

 

[Glyphagos]

Just like you? Actually assuming I meant they're all like that?

''Could it be..'', ''probably'', ''relative''?
Please read my worlds well before jumping on me like this.

Just because I've left out westerners from my paragraph, is so far from meaning I think we're sinless from that ****.

Considering it's early in the morning for me and understanding what I am about to say may be an excuse. I'm too sleepy to understand anything. Even if you said "probably" it still makes me wonder if you truly believe that which drove me to jump to conclusions since you're not fully saying if you think they all are or some are and some are not. I think you should be more careful with how you use your words next time. and I should probably stop going in the internet when I've just gotten up and learn patience before I jump to an argument.

 

[SpandexBullets]

Hold the phone there, Don't you think you're being a little prejudice/bigoted in just assuming every Japanese National is in it for the booty and that Westerners also aren't in it for the booty/They're in it for the series? Nobody's perfect but we can't just go off assuming everyone is like that just cause the majority stinks like ****.

That is the sole reason ZSS was prioritised and given 2 alt costumes during development; to bait out hungry male gamers who wanted to pause the game and stare at her body.

 

[Glyphagos]

That is the sole reason ZSS was prioritised and given 2 alt costumes during development; to bait out hungry male gamers who wanted to pause the game and stare at her body.

I must ask one thing though.

is it a sin for someone to appreciate beauty?.
I mean sure there are hungry male gamers as you say.
but do you think it's wrong for fans to also "like it" to an extent?
Am I not a fan?

 

[SpandexBullets]

So I've been avoiding wading into the rage/vent thread but here goes relating to the OP.

From a design perspective ZSS is built differently. I'll reserve judgement until the end, and simply highlight differences in design.

Samus' up-air combos into itself and other moves at low/mid percents. ZSS' up-air combos into itself at considerably higher percents, and very specifically within kill range into her up-B.
Samus needs to land an early high damage combo to bring her simple jab combo online, if she fails, she will generally struggle.
ZSS needs to land a boost kick kill combo, if she fails and percents get too high she will generally struggle.
All of Samus' combos require a high level of skill and awareness of the percents to land, they are generally small window because of the growth of knockback and the small hitboxes. Up-tilt -> d-tilt is different than up-tilt -> f-smash is different than up-tilt -> SH CS and they are all separated by roughly 20%. The simple d-throw -> up-air will not true combo, ever. You have to input a fairly tight initial dash to get it to work, and consequently to get the most out of your d-throw.
None of ZSS' combos require a high level of skill, only a vague understanding of percentage range, rage, staleness, is good enough because they are very broad. Paralyzer / d-smash -> whatever is trivial, anytime, anywhere. There is some small amount of skill in landing the flip kick spikes but within a few hours, you'll know how to do it. D-throw -> follow ups are likewise trivial, there's no special inputs required like an initial dash, because the initial bounce is high and growth of the d-throw is low relative to the mobility of ZSS.

ZSS' basic gameplay is formulaic. You can be very successful in a simple for-glory format with a bunch of fast-falling short-hops spitting out n-air, z-air and paralyzer while fishing for grabs. Many opponents can't keep up with the basic formula, and I have to admit when I first started playing I struggled against it as well.
Samus' gameplay does not have a formula. People say she has a "bad neutral". The homing missile is a terrible projectile, the SH into fast-fall is not sufficiently fast to zone with z-air consistently against a wide range of targets.
You're forced to play with all your tools rather than a set prescription. Without a consistent prescription people do not see a consistent path to victory and acquiring the matchup knowledge to take on a huge and varied cast requires a lot of trial and error and a corresponding large amount of frustration.

In terms of basic trading blows, ZSS has a large amount of priority. The moves are generally very fast with slight disjoints and her thin hurbox effectively avoids poorly timed attacks. Very little cooldown beyond grab.
In basic trading Samus fairs poorly. Attacks themselves are actually quite fast, but only a handful of moves with low cooldown. It's not really the speed that is the problem, it's the postage stamp hitboxes are almost all directly beside broad hurtboxes and a miss timed or miss-spaced attack typically means punishment. Samus's disjoints, the up-smash and f-air all require skill to use, and they can still be beaten routinely by other disjoints.
This is another element that will frustrate the player.

So where is the balance? I could be, particularly after last few patches, be readily convinced Sakurai is simply an *******. He basically trolled Samus mains at E3 (heresay ignored), and continues to troll us today. I'm borderline convinced this is true, particularly given other design decisions within the patches. I'm particularly pissed off at the design decision that Samus' up-tilt and d-air combo starters are not guaranteed, by design.
Here's my take on the balance.

Samus does much more damage. Samus combos are very, very damaging. Samus can theoretically kill ZSS in 2 hits.
Samus lives much longer and cannot be true comboed easily. Most high % true combos as registered in training mode are actually avoidable tight strings or can be DI negated. ZSS doesn't actually have kill confirms out of up-air, n-air and the flip kicks are not real, the boost kick is a much much more difficult thing to kill with when people understand how to fall out of boost kick.
Samus tech chases are very real.
ZSS struggles with shields, particularly to get the kill. Samus will simply break your shield if you try shield games.

Do I think ZSS is "balanced" right now? No. Boost kick should not kill as early as it does for a lightweight and the paralyzer combos should be made less infantile simple to execute. The ranges at which up-air combos into itself I also think is a design mistake. ZSS falls into the same category as the other "top tiers" like Sheik and Rosalina. They are not balanced. The pro players like and play these characters because they are fundamentally flawed designs which they can exploit.
Is Samus "balanced" right now? I don't know yet. I haven't mastered the character, which will take more time. Why Sakurai made life so hard and technical remains to be understood.

My love for your posts burns bright.

 

[SpandexBullets]

I must ask one thing though.

is it a sin for someone to appreciate beauty?.
I mean sure there are hungry male gamers as you say.
but do you think it's wrong for fans to also "like it" to an extent?
Am I not a fan?

I'm saying it's a bad thing when Nintendo's flagship female protagonist, who they insist is a "strong female character", is deliberately neglected in favour of her sexy, make-up'd, skintight suit version.

Having played each since 3DS, their contrast in ability as fighters is just too great to be considered accidental. If I was to list characters in this game who got the least development time, it would be:
1. Lucina
2. Dark Pit
3. Dr Mario
4. Samus
5. Marth

 

[SpandexBullets]

There are many problems with ZSS's obvious superiority as a character, and one of those is that it's a huge middle finger to Samus fans/players.

 

[Glyphagos]

Alright Fine but I was asking more if you think it's wrong or if it discredits me and some other ZSS users as fans but okay then Mr. Spandex.

 

[Octavium]

Snip

Although I do agree with you (amazing post btw +1), I feel some credit should be at least given to the Uair strings into Up-b for the kill with ZSS. Knockback angles differ from which part of the Uair hitbox was used to hit the enemy, along with the move's dramatic knockback scaling... percent, rage, weight aswell as the opponent's DI prediction must be taken into consideration for appropriately conditioning the opponent into a same-level Up-b boostkick to avoid them falling out.

There's also the dilemma of either using the Uair right after landing the first, or fast falling into the ground to cancel the move's endlag to hopefully land a better positioned Uair for superior results. This does sound like Rich People Problems however considering how easy life is for the ZSS player.

 

[SpandexBullets]

Alright Fine but I was asking more if you think it's wrong or if it discredits me and some other ZSS users as fans but okay then Mr. Spandex.

It doesn't matter what anyone thinks of sexualised characters, the fact that she was prioritised above Samus is the issue.

Can you see this issue?

 

[SpandexBullets]

Although I do agree with you (amazing post btw +1), I feel some credit should be at least given to the Uair strings into Up-b for the kill. Knockback angles differ from which part of the Uair hitbox was used to hit the enemy, along with the move's dramatic knockback scaling... percent, rage, weight aswell as the opponent's DI prediction must be taken into consideration for appropriately conditioning the opponent into a same-level Up-b boostkick to avoid them falling out.

There's also the dilemma of either using the Uair right after landing the first, or fast falling into the ground to cancel the move's endlag to hopefully land a better positioned Uair for superior results. This does sound like Rich People Problems however considering how easy life is for the ZSS player.

Yeah, you have to decide which moves should connect.

For Samus mains, after 30-45%...it's a barren wasteland of reads, spaced zairs and projectiles that do nothing but small pockets of damage.
Reflectors ruin Samus btw, all of her projectiles now have much more cool-down, so she can't shield in time to stop relfected projectiles unless she's 5 miles away.

 

[Glyphagos]

It doesn't matter what anyone thinks of sexualised characters, the fact that she was prioritised above Samus is the issue.

Can you see this issue?

I can see the issue clearly, I was only asking what you believe in.

 

[Afro Smash]

That is the sole reason ZSS was prioritised and given 2 alt costumes during development; to bait out hungry male gamers who wanted to pause the game and stare at her body.

lmao, please stop presenting opinions as fact, you have 0 evidence of this, what would even be the purpose of this? It wouldn't increase sales, people could just look online, no one is buying smash to pause the game and look at zero suit, also those alts were from the end of past games, now she became her own seperate character it makers sense to include unique alts (changing samus suits could affect animations).

You keep saying they purposefully put more effort in to Zero Suit, that may be true since she became a completely seperate character to Samus for the first time in this game. When you can present evidence of them putting more work in to her for any reason other than this then I'll start trying to see things from your perspective, and I'm talking evidence or an opinoin arrived at using logic e.g. not sex sells, because that isn't necessary for smash games in the slightest

Imo it was to bait out hungry lesbian gamers!!

 

[Glyphagos]

lmao, please stop presenting opinions as fact, you have 0 evidence of this, what would even be the purpose of this? It wouldn't increase sales, people could just look online, no one is buying smash to pause the game and look at zero suit, also those alts were from the end of past games, now she became her own seperate character it makers sense to include unique alts (changing samus suits could affect animations).

You keep saying they purposefully put more effort in to Zero Suit, that may be true since she became a completely seperate character to Samus for the first time in this game. When you can prevent evidence of them putting more work in to her for any reason other than this then I'll start trying to see things from your perspective, and I'm talking evidence or an opinoin arrived at using logic e.g. not sex sells, because that isn't necessary for smash in the slightest

Imo it was to bait out hungry lesbian gamers!!

You right now and my reaction.

 

[DungeonMaster]

For Samus mains, after 30-45%...it's a barren wasteland of reads, spaced zairs and projectiles that do nothing but small pockets of damage.

Hold on, hold on, that's a bit of an exaggeration. While I definitely agree ZSS starts to hit her stride in this range and everything she does is easier to execute, we actually have very respectable combos and tech chases within the 45 - 120 range.
If you haven't seen my Samus combo video yet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kc4TQd5rGes

Past 45% the simple up-tilt -> CS or up-B and d-air -> CS or up-B are very damaging and can kill.
Up-air to d-air, up-air to CS I still struggle to land in game but they are non-techable.
All the super-missile -> CS cannot be teched and are very effective kill combos.
I think @ Afro Smash and @KayJay are the only ones with sufficiently good frame perfect RAR to pull off a d-throw -> RAR b-air combo with any reliability.
N-air produces charge shot tech chases in that range, z-air does as well at the high end. F-tilt was nerfed but still works reliably out of a pivot to tech chase at the kill percent. Even jab2 and ledge and getup attack against fast fallers.
Sourspot up-air -> jab -> cancel -> f-smash I don't think anyone is yet proficient enough to use in game but it definitely sweet spot kills circa 100.
At very high % there are a bunch of z-air, jab and sour-spot kill combos out of f-smash and up-B which basically trade getting a short fast hit in for the big finisher.

None of us are any good at this sort of detailed play right now, even the best Samus players I know of are still fragmented in their arsenal of options the character is technically capable of, good at some things but not others (myself definitely included), so that's why I'm still withholding judgement on the whole of the character and remain overall positive. I still struggle with basic things like picking the right reactive option out of a SH-AD, n-air, b-air, up-air or cancel into z-air. My skill is just not there yet. Above and beyond Sakurai simply trolling us, I would love to sit him down and ask "Why? Why is it so damn complicated? Did you do this on purpose?". Again, I'm not sure (there might be violence in that encounter...). The ZSS stuff, it's obviously intentional.

I fully agree @ Octavium that ZSS has subtleties to her, and I don't want to diminish efforts of great players. The ZSS gameplay is now at the level of optimization from your description, we're still literally figuring things out, optimization is still on the horizon.

For my own trivia can you guys please provide links to the following:
@ SpandexBullets "In that regard, Zero confirmed afterwards that they actually meant ZSS"
@Squaddle "If you look at early gameplay videos, she used to have relentless missiles as her default missile, which are really, REALLY good, and I believe she used to have her old sexkick nair."
If not, no worries, but I'd love to see some additional evidence for this for my own curiosity.

 

[SpandexBullets]

I've seen it (knowledge of percent im guessing?)
30-45% is the practical percent where Samus's combos become more and more difficult to land, if DI and teching are used as they would be at high level play.
Also, due to her poor airspeed, characters with better frame data can turn her follow-up into their own follow-up.

As for the tech-chasing, yes. I like that. It's still reads, but she has good tech-chasing abilility with charge shot and her tether grab.

But even then, you will have to work almost frame perfectly without DI to achieve combos and kill set-ups that ZSS has in abundance at a range of percents. As well as that, ZSS has equal if not superior tech-chasing ability.

**I think it was either...Zero's 3DS Samus guide, or one of his vlogs...one of Zero's pre-apex videos. I distinctly remember him saying that he had discussed Zero Suit Samus with another player at the invitational and they both agreed that she was the best character. That probably got skewed into "Samus", which could mean either character.**

 

[SpandexBullets]

lmao, please stop presenting opinions as fact, you have 0 evidence of this, what would even be the purpose of this? It wouldn't increase sales, people could just look online, no one is buying smash to pause the game and look at zero suit, also those alts were from the end of past games, now she became her own seperate character it makers sense to include unique alts (changing samus suits could affect animations).

You keep saying they purposefully put more effort in to Zero Suit, that may be true since she became a completely seperate character to Samus for the first time in this game. When you can present evidence of them putting more work in to her for any reason other than this then I'll start trying to see things from your perspective, and I'm talking evidence or an opinoin arrived at using logic e.g. not sex sells, because that isn't necessary for smash games in the slightest

Imo it was to bait out hungry lesbian gamers!!

...not even gonna comment on the Lesbian thing.

• ZSS gets 2 alts
• Samus gets none, and she has most of her recycled animations from Brawl (most notable change is dash animation), so it wouldn't matter what suit she had on.
(Of which could have been the Super, Varia, Fusion, Zero Mission, Prime, Light or Phazon suit, but she only has Other M.)

Alts are derived from sexualised 'reward' images from the endings of the GBA games. Sure, they're in previous games, but they retain their original function, which was a hot lady after you beat the game very fast.

Sexualised female characters, whether you like it or not, are advertising points for most fighting games. That's why her alts were included and publicised, and Samus's previous costume(s) were not.

But you're right, they don't work well as selling points, but advertising the game through the character is certainly a present thing.

How do I know they put more work into ZSS than Samus?
Because characters like Shiek, Falcon, Fox, Mario, and ZSS were redesigned to be good competitive characters. They weren't given movesets that magically created combo potential unaware to Sakurai, these characters were tried and tested to excel as technical fighters.

Samus has been more balanced in knockback and damage output than Brawl, and all of her moves have been applied to Smash 4's physics (multi-hit moves link better, better recovery sweetspot, etc.)...but she was left at that, a very basic character. Any combo potential she has (as exhibited in Dungeon Masters exquisite combo video) was probably not even deliberate as they are difficult to start and follow-through, unlike the very formulaic d-tilt/u-tilt/down-throw combo power of the aforementioned fighters.

That's how I know.
There's no way Sakurai spent as much time on Samus as he did on ZSS, and you can see that by playing them both. Her one new move is nair...and it does nothing for Samus that her original nair and current bair doesn't do already.

 

[SpandexBullets]

As much as I wish Sakurai had given ZSS and the original Samus equal attention, that clearly didn't happen.

And as much as I want to believe that he saw them as equal fighters, I think he was relying on the 'player skill > character potential' factor of video games, and cut off Samus as a very plain character. (She was available in the Invitational and the demo, and hasn't been noticeably changed since either.)

That's not solid evidence, but it's solid logic.

 

[SpandexBullets]

Hold the phone there, Don't you think you're being a little prejudice/bigoted in just assuming every Japanese National is in it for the booty and that Westerners also aren't in it for the booty/They're in it for the series? Nobody's perfect but we can't just go off assuming everyone is like that just cause the majority stinks like ****.

Bayonetta 2.

 

[Glyphagos]

Bayonetta 2.

What?

 

[SpandexBullets]

What?

It's a Nintendo-produced game that got huge praise and attention in Western and Eastern audiences.

And it is very much booty.

 

[Glyphagos]

It's a Nintendo-produced game that got huge praise and attention in Western and Eastern audiences.

And it is very much booty.

Annnnnnd how does it relate?

 

[SpandexBullets]

Annnnnnd how does it relate?

Japan and America have big booty followings.

I saw that in fans of Brawl, and I see it was taken in and used as a marketing point in Smash 4.
Like it or not, those alt costumes were made for the booty.