Sakurwhy vent: ZSS > Samus

[SpandexBullets]

So,
If you've been up to date with Smash 4 since the Invitational, you've probably become aware that Zero Suit Samus is a highly technical powerhouse that stands highly in the current meta.

Zero Suit Samus is fast, has amazing frame data, has an amazing neutral game, approach game, punish game, combo game juggle game, air game and off-stage game. She has amazing gimping and KO tools, as well as unpredictable and extensive recovery options.

Now, I don't mind that she's good. She has an interesting rush-down moveset, sort of like 'captain-falcon-with-a-gun'. And the more technical rush-down characters, the merrier.

But ever since Sakurai stepped on stage at the Invitational and declared her the best character (from the players there, but it's obvious that he intended for her to be one of the best, like Shiek), I've grown more and more frustrated with ZSS, and the title pf this thread states why:

She is totally superior to Samus is every way.

That's right. The skimpier, make-up wearing, sexualised Samus is better than her power-suit form. She even has two extra alt costumes to reveal more of her body, while Samus just has recycled recolours from Brawl.

As I have stated, I don't mind ZSS as a character, but does anyone else feel irritated that Sakurai deliberately made the much more sexualised samus a better character than her power suit form?

Share your thoughts, please.

 

[Fancykong]

I totally agree. Playing Samus should feel like the end of a real Metroid game where I'm able to take on anything. She should be able to shoot as fast as Fox, and many of her melee weapons like the Speed Booster, Shine Spark, Screw Attack and all of Other M's melee finishers are under-represented. Worse, although they modeled her after Other M in Smash 4, they didn't give her anything from it. ZSS has the mobility and falls faster despite being lighter, Samus can't use her Sense Move animations (where it literally shows her not rolling to dodge something) in place of her slow morph ball (which is also under represented), she can't charge while moving, and she can't use her actual melee moves in Smash (shoving her gun in people's face and shooting, double windmill kicks, spinning people with her arm, not the grapple beam) and her tether is less precise than ZSS because of the way Zairs work in hitstun offstage. I can understand not being able to fly with Screw Attack, but Sakurai messed up its trajectory ( it's supposed to go sideways in an arc, not only straight up) and took four games to figure out that it's supposed to kill people instead of slightly toss them. ZSS also has the Flip Jump, which leaves her temporarily intangible while gaining an extra jump, an automatic footstool PLUS a strong spike. ...What? Of all moves to give someone who's canonically weaker than Samus, you give her one that's better than all her suits?

TLDR: Even if you hated Other M, you know that in it Samus basically had ZSS's agility and ZSS handled like Samus does on here. I could list even more gripes, but as a Metroid fan I'm sorely disappointed with her representation in Smash.

 

[Glyphagos]

>She is totally superior to Samus is every way.
That's right. The skimpier, make-up wearing, sexualised Samus is better than her power-suit form. She even has two extra alt costumes to reveal more of her body, while Samus just has recycled recolours from Brawl.

As I have stated, I don't mind ZSS as a character, but does anyone else feel irritated that Sakurai deliberately made the much more sexualised samus a better character than her power suit form?

Share your thoughts, please.

>but does anyone else feel irritated that Sakurai deliberately made the much more sexualised samus a better character than her power suit form?

>Sakurai deliberately made the much more sexualised samus a better character than her power suit form?

Thread sounds like bait.

 

[Fancykong]

>She is totally superior to Samus is every way.
That's right. The skimpier, make-up wearing, sexualised Samus is better than her power-suit form. She even has two extra alt costumes to reveal more of her body, while Samus just has recycled recolours from Brawl.

As I have stated, I don't mind ZSS as a character, but does anyone else feel irritated that Sakurai deliberately made the much more sexualised samus a better character than her power suit form?

Share your thoughts, please.

>but does anyone else feel irritated that Sakurai deliberately made the much more sexualised samus a better character than her power suit form?

>Sakurai deliberately made the much more sexualised samus a better character than her power suit form?

Thread sounds like bait.

Well, you could skew it in the direction that I did and talk about how ZSS is mechanically better in almost every way. I just ignored the bait.

 

[Glyphagos]

Well, you could skew it in the direction that I did and talk about how ZSS is mechanically better in almost every way. I just ignored the bait.

Eh I just thought it'd be informative to mention that.

 

[Hapajin]

I've felt this way since Brawl, and I've kinda gotten over it, but it is still frustrating. She seems so powerful and untouchable in the Metroid series, but so feeble and slow in Smash4, IMO. I don't really like her current meta-playstyle. My hope right now is that Samus will get an Ike-treatment of buffs which is the only way I see her improving in the tiers at all. For now, there are still people who can do really neat things with Samus, just look at the Gameplay videos thread, but I also feel a bit betrayed that she was hyped up by Sakurai, only to remain low-tier for the second smash game in a row (unless you count PM)

Oh and here is an official rage-thread if you need more venting
http://smashboards.com/threads/obligatory-low-tier-rage-thread.402652/

 

[SpandexBullets]

There's more insult to injury when you consider the fact that Samus is the only female pr

>She is totally superior to Samus is every way.
That's right. The skimpier, make-up wearing, sexualised Samus is better than her power-suit form. She even has two extra alt costumes to reveal more of her body, while Samus just has recycled recolours from Brawl.

As I have stated, I don't mind ZSS as a character, but does anyone else feel irritated that Sakurai deliberately made the much more sexualised samus a better character than her power suit form?

Share your thoughts, please.

>but does anyone else feel irritated that Sakurai deliberately made the much more sexualised samus a better character than her power suit form?

>Sakurai deliberately made the much more sexualised samus a better character than her power suit form?

Thread sounds like bait.

>Greentexting
>why
>its a forum

 

[SpandexBullets]

I totally agree. Playing Samus should feel like the end of a real Metroid game where I'm able to take on anything. She should be able to shoot as fast as Fox, and many of her melee weapons like the Speed Booster, Shine Spark, Screw Attack and all of Other M's melee finishers are under-represented. Worse, although they modeled her after Other M in Smash 4, they didn't give her anything from it. ZSS has the mobility and falls faster despite being lighter, Samus can't use her Sense Move animations (where it literally shows her not rolling to dodge something) in place of her slow morph ball (which is also under represented), she can't charge while moving, and she can't use her actual melee moves in Smash (shoving her gun in people's face and shooting, double windmill kicks, spinning people with her arm, not the grapple beam) and her tether is less precise than ZSS because of the way Zairs work in hitstun offstage. I can understand not being able to fly with Screw Attack, but Sakurai messed up its trajectory ( it's supposed to go sideways in an arc, not only straight up) and took four games to figure out that it's supposed to kill people instead of slightly toss them. ZSS also has the Flip Jump, which leaves her temporarily intangible while gaining an extra jump, an automatic footstool PLUS a strong spike. ...What? Of all moves to give someone who's canonically weaker than Samus, you give her one that's better than all her suits?

TLDR: Even if you hated Other M, you know that in it Samus basically had ZSS's agility and ZSS handled like Samus does on here. I could list even more gripes, but as a Metroid fan I'm sorely disappointed with her representation in Smash.

It's more insult to injury when you consider the fact that ZSS has different costumes from the GBA games and Other M, whereas Samus only has Other M recolours.

The speed was also present in Super Metroid through her speed booster. I think her missiles should be buffed, they need to come out fast and be near spammable (like Falco's laser speed).

 

[Glyphagos]

There's more insult to injury when you consider the fact that Samus is the only female pr

>Greentexting
>why
>its a forum

Because I felt like it.

 

[SpandexBullets]

Because I felt like it.

You looked very cool doing it, almost like an epic memer on 4chan.

Want to add anything to the thread?

 

[Glyphagos]

You looked very cool doing it, almost like an epic memer on 4chan.

Want to add anything to the thread?

All I can say is that it's just a game. by your Logic, Palutena and Ganondorf should be the most Overpowered Characters in SM4SH because of their abilities and powers witnessed by their respective games.

Also you seem to have an issue with ZSS's sexualization but really I can't understand people's problems with a woman expressing her sexuality.

By the way, Epic Memer from 4chan? Oh please I'm so flattered! HAVE A DANK MEME

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEBjqG5l6s4

 

[SpandexBullets]

All I can say is that it's just a game. by your Logic, Palutena and Ganondorf should be the most Overpowered Characters in SM4SH because of their abilities and powers witnessed by their respective games.

Also you seem to have an issue with ZSS's sexualization but really I can't understand people's problems with a woman expressing her sexuality.

By the way, Epic Memer from 4chan? Oh please I'm so flattered! HAVE A DANK MEME

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEBjqG5l6s4

**Not even gonna get into it, discussing gender politics on Smashboards 9 times out of 10 ends with some guy pming me to tell me how feminism is a plague to society, and that sexist comments are declarations of freedom while complaints about them in any way are comparable to the Nazis, the NSA and [Ayn Rand quotes].

But no, to your statement about G'dorf and Palutena. Example:
Shiek is logically a better combatant than Zelda because she is physically stronger and more agile than Zelda. Zelda can practice magic, and deal big damage with range, but Shiek was prepared like a ninja, which is presented in her superior offense.

ZSS is the 'reward' at the end of Metroid games so you can see Samus outside her armour, usually in a sexual light with revealing clothing and a slim, supermodel body.
She was added as a faster, weaker Samus in Brawl once her armour was shed. Even though she was better than Samus then, she wasn't amazingly better.

In Smash 4, she was designed to be MUCH better than Samus.
That was deliberate

 

[Glyphagos]

**Not even gonna get into it, discussing gender politics on Smashboards 9 times out of 10 ends with some guy pming me to tell me how feminism is a plague to society, and that sexist comments are declarations of freedom while complaints about them in any way are comparable to the Nazis, the NSA and [Ayn Rand quotes].

But no, to your statement about G'dorf and Palutena. Example:
Shiek is logically a better combatant than Zelda because she is physically stronger and more agile than Zelda. Zelda can practice magic, and deal big damage with range, but Shiek was prepared like a ninja, which is presented in her superior offense.

ZSS is the 'reward' at the end of Metroid games so you can see Samus outside her armour, usually in a sexual light with revealing clothing and a slim, supermodel body.
She was added as a faster, weaker Samus in Brawl once her armour was shed. Even though she was better than Samus then, she wasn't amazingly better.

In Smash 4, she was designed to be MUCH better than Samus.
That was deliberate

****I have no issue with feminism, Only the way some people represent it. so it's okay however you brought it upon yourself when you mentioned her beauty in this argument****

I think Sakurai was just trying to make ZSS on par with Sheik/More versatile and reliable and he forgot all about Samus.

That's just my theory but you're still missing the point of my argument judging by your example.

 

[SpandexBullets]

****I have no issue with feminism, Only the way some people represent it. so it's okay however you brought it upon yourself when you mentioned her beauty in this argument****

I think Sakurai was just trying to make ZSS on par with Sheik/More versatile and reliable and he forgot all about Samus.

That's just my theory but you're still missing the point of my argument judging by your example.

I get what you mean, where character history holds no place in deciding a Smasher's power, and that's undoubtable.

But ZSS was originally an extension of Samus, and her buffs, like her costumes, were present so Sakurai could lure in hungry male gamers.

He's a very attentive game director tho, loves the little details. I'm pretty sure he just put ZSS as a priority, as more players would find her appealing than regular Samus. I'm sure he didn't nerf Samus to make ZSS the better alternative of the character, but he didn't do her any favours either.

Edit:
**it's impossible to not bring up the fact that ZSS is sexualised when regarding her Smash 4 appearance, as that was one of her major attractions and changes in her transition between games (2 alt revealing costumes, ridiculous poses and animations, Nintendo emphasising the fact that her character designer was female and consistent comaprisons to Shulk as if to say "double standards").
I'm sorry to bring this up when you want to just talk about gameplay, and I actually really adore Smash and Metroid, but when Smash's sole female protagonist of her own game is jipped by being outclassed by a more sexualised, slimmer, supermodel Samus, it really shows how Nintendo feels about Samus as a "strong female character".**

 

[Glyphagos]

I get what you mean, where character history holds no place in deciding a Smasher's power, and that's undoubtable.

But ZSS was originally an extension of Samus, and her buffs, like her costumes, were present so Sakurai could lure in hungry male gamers.

He's a very attentive game director tho, loves the little details. I'm pretty sure he just put ZSS as a priority, as more players would find her appealing than regular Samus. I'm sure he didn't nerf Samus to make ZSS the better alternative of the character, but he didn't do her any favours either.

True but at least in every little Patch Samus gets a good buff (Barely)

Tbh I feel ashamed that Sakurai was able to lure me in with ZSS but that's why I co-main with Samus as well so I wouldn't feel as much of a ******* just cause I let my hormones control who I use lol.

Edit ***This is why I don't agree much with Metroid fans, Nintendo made Legitimate excuses in my opinion and the whole Shulk/Ike/Captain Falcon sexualization thing... Like it or not is a valid argument. However I'm not going to sit here and say she isn't sexualized, SHE is sexualized but be honest, Would you rather her be weak when she's a "supermodel" and helpless? Because I think that would create even more of a stir. I love Metroid as well and Samus has consistently been part of my childhood. I would be more pissed if they made her sexualized form weak, but aside from that her sexualization doesn't bother me because I still see that strong woman wearing an armor I played on my Gameboy. as far as the 2 alt costumes go, She originally wore those in the classic Metroid games before Zero Mission stepped in. IMO my point is that she's always been sexualized. I hate Other M tho if that helps my position in any way but yeah***

 

[SpandexBullets]

True but at least in every little Patch Samus gets a good buff (Barely)

Tbh I feel ashamed that Sakurai was able to lure me in with ZSS but that's why I co-main with Samus as well so I wouldn't feel as much of a ******* just cause I let my hormones control who I use lol.

Yeah, 0.002% bigger up-smash hitbox is just peanuts.
How about frame 3 missiles that are MUCH faster, frame 4 Charge Shot, bigger Zair hitbox, faster dash, slightly faster falling speed, better linking up-air that ends faster, u-tilt that pops up weakly instead of meteor smashing and hitboxes that actually match dair, dash attack and F-smash, to name a few needed buffs for this character.

I added an extra paragraph in the edit about that.

 

[Glyphagos]

Yeah, 0.002% bigger up-smash hitbox is just peanuts.
How about frame 3 missiles that are MUCH faster, frame 4 Charge Shot, bigger Zair hitbox, faster dash, slightly faster falling speed, better linking up-air that ends faster, u-tilt that pops up weakly instead of meteor smashing and hitboxes that actually match dair, dash attack and F-smash, to name a few needed buffs for this character.

I added an extra paragraph in the edit about that.

I did insinuate they were barely good buffs.

and I also added an extra paragraph in the edit about that.

 

[SpandexBullets]

Shulk's not sexulised, and neither is Falcon. Super-muscular or simply wearing short pants =/= sexualised, just fetishised to a very minor margin of players, and even then that's subjective, not deliberate sexualisation.

Ike is 100% husbando material (for me, at least). If Ike had a shirtless costume, than that would be an equal use of sexualising characters based on gender...but it's still subjective when that's not the case.

...make-up, supermodel body, increased breast size from Brawl and skintight suit IS NOT subjective. It's deliberate sexualisation. It's a huge difference.

I would agree that she has always been sexualised, but then I found this image:

That's what ZSS's physique should be like, that's how her buffs would make sense. That's the woman I imagine I would see if she shed her armour.

I like to think about Smash 4 as some child's first smash. And if that child loves playing as Samus, only to find that Zero Suit Samus is much, much better, well that's actually a huge problem.

This isn't 1999/2001, young female gamers are much more likely to play video games at the rate of boys. Presenting ZSS in that light...no. That's a no. It would be much, much better if ZSS looked like the bounty hunter above.

 

[Glyphagos]

Shulk's not sexulised, and neither is Falcon. Super-muscular or simply wearing short pants =/= sexualised, just fetishised to a very minor margin of players, and even then that's subjective, not deliberate sexualisation.

Ike is 100% husbando material (for me, at least). If Ike had a shirtless costume, than that would be an equal use of sexualising characters based on gender...but it's still subjective when that's not the case.

...make-up, supermodel body, increased breast size from Brawl and skintight suit IS NOT subjective. It's deliberate sexualisation. It's a huge difference.

I would agree that she has always been sexualised, but then I found this image:

That's what ZSS's physique should be like, that's how her buffs would make sense. That's the woman I imagine I would see if she shed her armour.

I like to think about Smash 4 as some child's first smash. And if that child loves playing as Samus, only to find that Zero Suit Samus is much, much better, well that's actually a huge problem.

This isn't 1999/2001, young female gamers are much more likely to play video games at the rate of boys. Presenting ZSS in that light...no. That's a no. It would be much, much better if ZSS looked like the bounty hunter above.

Falcon

>Nipple buttons
>Muscular
>gr8 butt
>skintight racing suit
>crotch (I wonder what he is packing)

Shulk

>"I'M REALLY FEELING IT"
>Alt costume

ike

>"Prepare yourself"
>Exactly as you put it, Full blown Husbando material.

I'm sorry but I'm going to have to disagree with you and say it is subjective. Right now you and me arguing about what's right und wrong/How we view ZSS just proves that, and this is what I love about being Human. My first reason though to main ZSS was because of Zero Mission being my first Metroid game, all other reasons were secondary. But since you brought it up in a child's perspective I can totally understand from that viewpoint now and it has given me a different insight to your argument. and I have no shame in saying Samus is like a waifu for me, No matter it be the Zero Suit or Armored they're both materials for me (Prepares myself to get **** on by angry fans) but I'll conclude each person has their own opinions and views on how they see someone/a character



I'm just going to stop this because I've seen how this kind of argument takes off around places like YouTube and Reddit even though you and me have been respectful to eachother, this is just going nowhere and we're heading back into Square 1. I really do appreciate that you were mature to discuss this as others would quickly jump to conclusions and accuse me of misogyny.

 

[SpandexBullets]

No, you're actually being very civil.

But really tho:

And this:

 

[Glyphagos]

No, you're actually being very civil.

But really tho:

And this:

Confirmed: I'd go gay for Falcon
Edit: forgot to mention dis b a joke

 

[KenMeister]

I'll admit, the first time I booted up Smash 4, the first character I ever picked up upon starting up the game was Samus, just to see if Sakurai was pulling my leg. I'll admit, Samus has always been a favorite of mine just from character alone, as I've been a a big fan of the series growing up, and Melee Samus is easily one of my favorite characters in the franchise, if not the most balanced character in the series when you think about it. After plowing through the atrocity that was Brawl, I was hoping Samus would've gotten fair treatment like the other veterans and got a good redesign to compensate her failure in Brawl's meta.....And she's still horrible, if not WORSE than Brawl. Admittingly, I'll play dittos online with my friend who seconds Samus every now and then, but Samus' shortcomings in 4 was easily my biggest disappointment in the entire game, and they can't ever seem to get her right with each patch as Sakurai is so obsessed with her having the worse CQC out of everyone, even as far as making ftilt even worse in one of the recent patches, even though it doesn't portray her well in the series at all. So much for character favoritism being the factor for my main....*sigh*

 

[Afro Smash]

My 2 cents are this: Balance should come before anything else in Smash, it doesn't matter who would be stronger canonically, so I don't care that it doesn't make sense for a powersuit-less Samus to be stronger than a powersuit samus, just that an imbalance exists at all. And I don't care that she's sexualised, and certainly not that she's both attractive and a powerful fighter

 

[Eggggggggggbert]

I believe the worst atrocity of Samus is her overall nature as a character. As the Smash roster grows with each game (and update now, I suppose), it begins to cover more ground. Characters that are less relevant to their respected series are being introduced to draw more appeal and to create more overall game content. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, It's quite nice really. More game is usually always a good thing. Its also great that this game (for the most part) actively searches to find character balance and provides mechanics to make each character desireable. Lets focus on what I mean by "for the most part".

No matter what, there will always be better characters. It is an unavoidable fact in all fighting games, the true distinguisher is how big this gap is. It feels like if there is a character to fall victim to it, its regular Samus. It really is undiplomatic that one of the most consistent smash characters from one of the most popular series, one of the most heroic, one of the most loved and adored characters, is probably one of the worst, worn out and least comfortable characters to play. Adding insult to injury that she once was fun to play (referring to Melee) and now her objectively better version, her more specific, less identifiable and (I suppose I'll mention it for the sake of relevance) more sexualized version is the better go-to character.

I know living in a world where all characters are evenly good is an unreasonable request of any developer. But I would rather the identifiable characters be the ones who are better at least. Casual players come to this game for the Marios, the Bowsers, the Links, etc, because that's who they usually know. If any of these characters were to not measure up, it would deter that player from continuing playing.

If someone loves Samus, they should be able to comfortable play her without getting super trashed by other characters just based off design.

I guess this is a wacky argument combining concepts of a competitive and casual nature but its how I feel.

TL:DR
What you should take away from this is that I don't think any character should be bad, and definitely not a character that people love this much.

 

[KenMeister]

I believe the worst atrocity of Samus is her overall nature as a character. As the Smash roster grows with each game (and update now, I suppose), it begins to cover more ground. Characters that are less relevant to their respected series are being introduced to draw more appeal and to create more overall game content. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, It's quite nice really. More game is usually always a good thing. Its also great that this game (for the most part) actively searches to find character balance and provides mechanics to make each character desireable. Lets focus on what I mean by "for the most part".

No matter what, there will always be better characters. It is an unavoidable fact in all fighting games, the true distinguisher is how big this gap is. It feels like if there is a character to fall victim to it, its regular Samus. It really is undiplomatic that one of the most consistent smash characters from one of the most popular series, one of the most heroic, one of the most loved and adored characters, is probably one of the worst, worn out and least comfortable characters to play. Adding insult to injury that she once was fun to play (referring to Melee) and now her objectively better version, her more specific, less identifiable and (I suppose I'll mention it for the sake of relevance) more sexualized version is the better go-to character.

I know living in a world where all characters are evenly good is an unreasonable request of any developer. But I would rather the identifiable characters be the ones who are better at least. Casual players come to this game for the Marios, the Bowsers, the Links, etc, because that's who they usually know. If any of these characters were to not measure up, it would deter that player from continuing playing.

If someone loves Samus, they should be able to comfortable play her without getting super trashed by other characters just based off design.

I guess this is a wacky argument combining concepts of a competitive and casual nature but its how I feel.

Nah I agree with you 100%. If someone like Link wasn't always either a middle-of-the-road (Melee and 4) character or garbage (64 and Brawl), I'd feel more comfortable playing Smash competitively because I have a genuine love for the character and franchise, not jumping to a generic space animal no one probably cares about outside of smash.

 

[SpandexBullets]

My 2 cents are this: Balance should come before anything else in Smash, it doesn't matter who would be stronger canonically, so I don't care that it doesn't make sense for a powersuit-less Samus to be stronger than a powersuit samus, just that an imbalance exists at all. And I don't care that she's sexualised, and certainly not that she's both attractive and a powerful fighter

So, you're ok with it? Gadzooks, that's ok. It's okay to be okay. I don't want her character nerfed.

I brought up her sexualisation because it's a very big problem when coupled with the fact that she's just so much better than Samus, and that her superiority as a fighter was a deliberate thing. It came across as Sakurai really wanting people to pick up ZSS (for reasons I've stated above), and that Samus was just kinda there.
Also, no. I don't want her to be more powerful than Samus, but I don't desire the inverse either.

ZSS should be the same rush down character she is, but Samus should be buffed to be able to beat characters ZSS has trouble defeating (as ESAM proved when countering Larry Lurr's Luigi at CEO). Just give her one good frame data buff, that's all. Otherwise...it's pretty insulting.

Final ZSS sexualisation post:
**to reiterate one more time, ZSS and Falcon/Shulk/Ike is a false equivalence. Those characters were not designed in a sexual way, but some of them still fall into that category...though on a much, much smaller scale. Falcon is super muscular and ridiculous in his physique, posture and animations, but not in the same way that ZSS is;
It's meant to be seen comedically

It's like "aay highlighted ass muscles wtf lol"

With Shulk's alt...there's a very important difference. This alt was added for the sole purpose of trying to make ZSS's alts look less like deliberate sexualisation and more of...half naked people? I don't know, maybe something comedic like Captain falcon, though I'm not even sure Nintendo's marketing team knew how to make that look not obvious. Here, he's the same character in animations and gestures, just with shorts instead:

A major difference between Shulk and ZSS is that Shulk is looking straight ahead, not aware that he's undressed. He's still an avatar character, meant to be seen through, and not looked at.

But with ZSS...you're meant to look AT her, not through her:

Final post about this, I'll only talk about movesets and animations from now on.**

 

[Eggggggggggbert]

I also think that if they were to make Samus good, it is pertinent to keep her weight in mind. I think she has a really good weight to her movement usually, being medium with explosive hits. Her speed does feel logical with her armor type. I'd be afraid that if they sought to improve her, they would just speed her up. Better frame data is definitely a subtle way to improving her overall operation. I'm always afraid of the future of smash considering the motto is usually "faster is better".

Also keep in mind, I'm saying these things with not a huge amount of Samus experience but rather a lot of game experience and a love for the game series itself.

 

[Afro Smash]

Whys is her sexualisation a huge problem when combined with her power though? If she were flat chested would it be ok? It shouldn't make a difference. Fast characters naturally have an advantage in Smash 4, that's just how it is, I would imagine since ZSS became her own character he wanted to make the differences between her and Samus even more pronounced with Speed etc. and this, due to the nature of Smash 4, made her a better character. I very much doubt he makes any character stronger than another on purpose, in what way would that benefit him?

As for Falcon it is the same though, huge muscles and a bulging crotch are atypical attractive traits in a male, the same as ZSS huge ass and **** are in a female, now huge muscles could be there just to indicate strength but a bulging crotch? you can't claim to know the developers intentions for how a bulging crotch would be perceived, but I've no reason to assume it any different than ZSS oversized assets. Looking at Shulks pic all I'm seeing is a fairly attractive guy staring at you with only shorts on and his 6 pack out, you said yourself here you don't know the reason they would include this, it would logical to asume it was to make at least one of his alts sexualise him. I don't deny that ZSS is more sexualised than these two, they are all sexualised though, and it doesn't detract from the game in any way, or those characters in anyway if you've played their respective games.

 

[SpandexBullets]

I also think that if they were to make Samus good, it is pertinent to keep her weight in mind. I think she has a really good weight to her movement usually, being medium with explosive hits. Her speed does feel logical with her armor type. I'd be afraid that if they sought to improve her, they would just speed her up. Better frame data is definitely a subtle way to improving her overall operation. I'm always afraid of the future of smash considering the motto is usually "faster is better".

Also keep in mind, I'm saying these things with not a huge amount of Samus experience but rather a lot of game experience and a love for the game series itself.

No, I've mained Samus since 3DS, and she really really needs better frame data. (Her jab doesn't even combo, whereas ZSS has a frame 2 jab!)

 

[Xygonn]

No, I've mained Samus since 3DS, and she really really needs better frame data. (Her jab doesn't even combo, whereas ZSS has a frame 2 jab!)

Frame 1.

 

[Eggggggggggbert]

Whys is her sexualisation a huge problem when combined with her power though? If she were flat chested would it be ok? It shouldn't make a difference. Fast characters naturally have an advantage in Smash 4, that's just how it is, I would imagine since ZSS became her own character he wanted to make the differences between her and Samus even more pronounced with Speed etc. and this, due to the nature of Smash 4, made her a better character. I very much doubt he makes any character stronger than another on purpose, in what way would that benefit him?

As for Falcon it is the same though, huge muscles and a bulging crotch are atypical attractive traits in a male, the same as ZSS huge *** and **** are in a female, now huge muscles could be there just to indicate strength but a bulging crotch? you can't claim to know the developers intentions for how a bulging crotch would be perceived, but I've no reason to assume it any different than ZSS oversized assets. Looking at Shulks pic all I'm seeing is a fairly attractive guy staring at you with only shorts on and his 6 pack out, you said yourself here you don't know the reason they would include this, it would logical to asume it was to make at least one of his alts sexualise him. I don't deny that ZSS is more sexualised than these two, they are all sexualised though.

This is why I have a hard time with sexualization in videogames. Certain games are so focused on game play that the argument of sex appeal seems to fall into the background because it is far from the focus of the game. I mean there is a weird case of scantily clad characters in this game but its so far from the purpose of the game, I'm not sure if I should worry about it. A game where story is the forefront, sex appeal can be better argued that it is an issue especially if it is in terms of attempting to pull an audience with a set of breasts. This is where an problem of shallow developers should be pointed out.

I never believe "Sakurai" intends to make some characters better than others. That thought process is mostly a defense mechanism to reason why he makes the choices he does. Why is X so much better than Y? I can understand why people are frustrated but it is being improved. I will say again that I think Smash 4 is the best so far at closing this gap but of course there are still issues. Sakurai's pride in ZSS might be nothing more of him wanting to show this character they spent so much time redesigning from a previous game.

 

[SpandexBullets]

Frame 1.

I wanted to say it, but I didn't want to believe.

 

[Fluidityt]

I don't really see a problem with ZSS being an attractive woman. It's actually insulting to say that hot women can't also be kickass. She isn't overly sexualized, ala Holywood kickass hotties who wear skimpy armor or somehow can dispatch a foe 3 times her size with one kick. Samus is legitimately a badass, she's 6'3' 200lb, and is a highly trained soldier.

Her whole character has been somewhat sexualized since the very first game, where the faster you beat the games the less clothes she's wearing. It's gravy on top of an already solid character, and not what defines her.

As far as ZSS being superior, I think it's just how Sm4sh works; heavy characters aren't as good as the faster characters. In theory, they should be somewhat equal, but in actuality that's not how things play out. Yes, Samus is an exceptionally bad heavy character, and ZSS is an exceptionally good heavy character, but for a party game who's developers don't really care about competitive smash as much as party smash, what is to be expected?

 

[Eggggggggggbert]

I don't really see a problem with ZSS being an attractive woman. It's actually insulting to say that hot women can't also be kickass. She isn't overly sexualized, ala Holywood kickass hotties who wear skimpy armor or somehow can dispatch a foe 3 times her size with one kick. Samus is legitimately a badass, she's 6'3' 200lb, and is a highly trained soldier.

Her whole character has been somewhat sexualized since the very first game, where the faster you beat the games the less clothes she's wearing. It's gravy on top of an already solid character, and not what defines her.

As far as ZSS being superior, I think it's just how Sm4sh works; heavy characters aren't as good as the faster characters. In theory, they should be somewhat equal, but in actuality that's not how things play out. Yes, Samus is an exceptionally bad heavy character, and ZSS is an exceptionally good heavy character, but for a party game who's developers don't really care about competitive smash as much as party smash, what is to be expected?

We're not saying hot women can't be kick ass. Its more so confusion in asking why did they choose to create a busty character in an otherwise very cartoon-y game. Again, I don't believe the sex appeal argument should be explored as much because as you said its more important that a character that you know and love kicks butts as oppose to what they look like. I'm not sure she's been "sexualized" since the first game, she was very pixel-y back then. I'm sure it was overlook-able even by teenagers from the 90s.

It is difficult to make up for the fast trumps slow issue but even with that considered, Samus is lacking. They obviously somewhat care above competitive viability if they created this online "For Glory" structure and they constantly add balancing patches.
Where all these arguments coincides is everyone seems to be unsure what these developers focus on. Why do they do what they do? None of us will ever know and we will continue writing and venting about our frustration not knowing.

 

[SpandexBullets]

We're not saying hot women can't be kick ***. Its more so confusion in asking why did they choose to create a busty character in an otherwise very cartoon-y game. Again, I don't believe the sex appeal argument should be explored as much because as you said its more important that a character that you know and love kicks butts as oppose to what they look like. I'm not sure she's been "sexualized" since the first game, she was very pixel-y back then. I'm sure it was overlook-able even by teenagers from the 90s.

It is difficult to make up for the fast trumps slow issue but even with that considered, Samus is lacking. They obviously somewhat care above competitive viability if they created this online "For Glory" structure and they constantly add balancing patches.
Where all these arguments coincides is everyone seems to be unsure what these developers focus on. Why do they do what they do? None of us will ever know and we will continue writing and venting about our frustration not knowing.

Technology of the time man. They did what they could.

But really, we should complain if a character is underpowered in a game which seems to somewhat care for player input.
I don't want a lot for samus, just frame data/throw/jab/smash buffs and slight alterations in her dash/falling/air speed (she hasn't been altered from 3DS in any significant way.)

 

[Squaddle]

So, you're ok with it? Gadzooks, that's ok. It's okay to be okay. I don't want her character nerfed.

I brought up her sexualisation because it's a very big problem when coupled with the fact that she's just so much better than Samus, and that her superiority as a fighter was a deliberate thing. It came across as Sakurai really wanting people to pick up ZSS (for reasons I've stated above), and that Samus was just kinda there.
Also, no. I don't want her to be more powerful than Samus, but I don't desire the inverse either.

ZSS should be the same rush down character she is, but Samus should be buffed to be able to beat characters ZSS has trouble defeating (as ESAM proved when countering Larry Lurr's Luigi at CEO). Just give her one good frame data buff, that's all. Otherwise...it's pretty insulting.

Final ZSS sexualisation post:
**to reiterate one more time, ZSS and Falcon/Shulk/Ike is a false equivalence. Those characters were not designed in a sexual way, but some of them still fall into that category...though on a much, much smaller scale. Falcon is super muscular and ridiculous in his physique, posture and animations, but not in the same way that ZSS is;
It's meant to be seen comedically

It's like "aay highlighted *** muscles wtf lol"

With Shulk's alt...there's a very important difference. This alt was added for the sole purpose of trying to make ZSS's alts look less like deliberate sexualisation and more of...half naked people? I don't know, maybe something comedic like Captain falcon, though I'm not even sure Nintendo's marketing team knew how to make that look not obvious. Here, he's the same character in animations and gestures, just with shorts instead:

A major difference between Shulk and ZSS is that Shulk is looking straight ahead, not aware that he's undressed. He's still an avatar character, meant to be seen through, and not looked at.

But with ZSS...you're meant to look AT her, not through her:

Final post about this, I'll only talk about movesets and animations from now on.**

I... I sorry, but I have to chime back in on this, in the event that you're serious about it. Most of what you've said is over-analysis and subjective opinion you're touting as fact, especially the bits about "funny" vs "intentionally sexy", and shulk's bathing suit inclusion (which is in the source game, and who's body and face structure are what's considered attractive in current Japanese society). Sexism is present in videogames, sure, but it's also present in nearly every aspect of out society and culture today in differing degrees. In smash 4 it's such a non-issue there's no reason to bring it up at all. sexy != sexist

Look, there is really nothing wrong with sexy characters unless that's ALL the game has to offer... Which SSB4 doesn't do. Zelda, lucina, peach, regular samus, robin, and sheik are not scantily clad and constantly showing off their bodies or acting with sexy mannerisms, but diverse, well designed characters that appeal to a wide range of people. Wii fit trainer might be argued for, but she and her male counterpart are in yoga clothes, which are designed like that. Palutena and ZSS are the only characters who can really be considered blatant female sexualization... but again, it's okay! There are characters who's appeal is their personality, characters who's appeal comes from coolness, and characters who's appeal comes from their sexuality. Censoring a major aspect of our humanity because if done incorrectly it can be construed as offensive is not the way to go about this at all, equal representation is what matters and smash nailed that without hamfisting it in our faces like other games that make equality one of their main selling points.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ANYWAY

I wouldn't say ZSS better than samus in every way, their playstyles are totally different which make some matchups differ in diffiuclty (you mentioned that ESAM bit, which is true. Samus definitely has a better time dealing with weegee than ZSS). Samus is probably better than ZSS in multiplayer FFA as well, which is a big influence in the design team's balance philosophy (see- dorf, the initial charizard nefs).

Its worth noting that sakurai said himself that samus at one point in time was the strongest character in the game. If you look at early gameplay videos, she used to have relentless missiles as her default missile, which are really, REALLY good, and I believe she used to have her old sexkick nair. She was probably changed to be made much more managable, but they likely nerfed her on multiple fronts close to the games release which is why she's now so much worse than ZSS, and most other characters in the game.

 

[SpandexBullets]

Sigh.

Just talk about the characters and how you feel Samus could be buffed/ZSS could be nerfed.

I really don't have the time to discuss gender politics right now. Or ever.

 

[Afro Smash]

I mean you bought it up in the OP, you can't just claim that you don't have time now after counter points are being bought up when your original issue was the fact a sexualised version of Samus was stronger than the non sexualised version

 

[SpandexBullets]

I mean you bought it up in the OP, you can't just claim that you don't have time now after counter points are being bought up when your original issue was the fact a sexualised version of Samus was stronger than the non sexualised version

Skintight sexy-suit Samus 10 times out of 10 destroys cyborg suit with a power cannon Samus and you guys are instead arguing that there's nothing wrong with sexualising women and it's non-sensical to bring it up in the first place. It's too big a topic to be resolved for everyone who doesn't see the problem with this character to begin with.

I don't have time, because you guys really, really don't understand that sexualised women in fighting games are not niche occurances, they are industry standards.
It seems like I'm making a political point, because I'm refering to a factor in fighting games that is by and large a given. And I'm not even making the argument that fighting game characters can't be sexualised, just that this particular instance is very significant, and was marketed as a selling point for the game.

 

[Afro Smash]

How was it marketed as a selling point for the game? People buy Smash for iconic characters and the fun gameplay, no one would of bought it because 1/50 characters looked sexy, nor did they try to use it as a selling point. And you're not explaining why having a sexualised version of Samus beat her power suit form is an issue, if its with logic then this is a videogame, a non canon videogame at that, you shouldn't come in to it expecting logic, if your issue is with a sexualised fighter also be powerful, why is that an issue?