I love both games, and it think that as far as balance goes there is something to consider in games like these. S3 came out in 3 different versions, and Guilty Gear has come out in millions of versions. I just point this out because despite the fact that these games both cater to a competitive audience they still didnt get it right the first time. Both were modified for balance in each version, eventually culminating in the finished products they are now. I am personally a little bumed that Sakurai has he does not foresee downloadable content as being part of SSB4, because thats one of the ways that they might achieve the balance thats nearly impossible to get by just balancing during development.
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I love both games, and it think that as far as balance goes there is something to consider in games like these. S3 came out in 3 different versions, and Guilty Gear has come out in millions of versions. I just point this out because despite the fact that these games both cater to a competitive audience they still didnt get it right the first time. Both were modified for balance in each version, eventually culminating in the finished products they are now. I am personally a little bumed that Sakurai has he does not foresee downloadable content as being part of SSB4, because thats one of the ways that they might achieve the balance thats nearly impossible to get by just balancing during development.
Big-Cat
Challenge accepted.
Regardless, the "final" versions of the two games have it where Guilty Gear is more balanced. Number of revisions doesn't necessarily mean anything.
Sakurai has only said he does not have an DLC planned for now. This is for a good reason. He wants it to be as complete a package as possible when it's finally released. He has expressed the idea of doing balance patches if necessary and DLC sometime after the release of Smash 4 is definitely a possibility. My guess is that a lot of developers have a set amount of things to include in the vanilla game, but then deliberately set aside certain content as DLC from the beginning. This is NOT what Sakurai is out to do.
Sakurai has only said he does not have an DLC planned for now. This is for a good reason. He wants it to be as complete a package as possible when it's finally released. He has expressed the idea of doing balance patches if necessary and DLC sometime after the release of Smash 4 is definitely a possibility. My guess is that a lot of developers have a set amount of things to include in the vanilla game, but then deliberately set aside certain content as DLC from the beginning. This is NOT what Sakurai is out to do.
majora_787
Smash Hero
I wouldn't call it entirely fair to say that caring about the series is exclusive to competitive players. Unless that isn't what you meant.
RODO
Smash Ace
Let me clear something up on the balance issue:
While making something, and this goes for everyone, sometimes it's hard to immediately see what's wrong with the game. Do you think that Sakurai wasn't trying to balance Brawl at all?? I'm sure he didn't mean for MK to be as OP as he ended up being. But the thing that really gets to me is that these Project M devs, while they are doing a great job and I commend them on that, are treated like Gods for fixing the imbalances with Brawl.
The problem I have with that is that people can't see that Sakurai could just as easily look back on Brawl and see these issues too, AND could fix them just as easily. It's easy to point out problems with something after the fact, and he had to worry about so many things besides just the balance. These Project M devs have basically been given a template where all they have to do is worry about balancing. Sakurai GAVE them that template, they are just working off of it, and look at how long it has taken just to get to v3.0.
My point is, Sakurai has given us Smash, and without him it wouldn't be here PERIOD. Even everyone's beloved Melee. Without Brawl there wouldn't be a Project M. And if Sakurai wanted, he could only focus on Versus mode and balance, but there are other aspects to Smash as a whole that he has to come up with from scratch. No one is giving him a template to go off of, so give the man a break. Try making a game that has to appeal to tens of millions of people yourself and see if you can do a better job pleasing the whole fanbase.
While making something, and this goes for everyone, sometimes it's hard to immediately see what's wrong with the game. Do you think that Sakurai wasn't trying to balance Brawl at all?? I'm sure he didn't mean for MK to be as OP as he ended up being. But the thing that really gets to me is that these Project M devs, while they are doing a great job and I commend them on that, are treated like Gods for fixing the imbalances with Brawl.
The problem I have with that is that people can't see that Sakurai could just as easily look back on Brawl and see these issues too, AND could fix them just as easily. It's easy to point out problems with something after the fact, and he had to worry about so many things besides just the balance. These Project M devs have basically been given a template where all they have to do is worry about balancing. Sakurai GAVE them that template, they are just working off of it, and look at how long it has taken just to get to v3.0.
My point is, Sakurai has given us Smash, and without him it wouldn't be here PERIOD. Even everyone's beloved Melee. Without Brawl there wouldn't be a Project M. And if Sakurai wanted, he could only focus on Versus mode and balance, but there are other aspects to Smash as a whole that he has to come up with from scratch. No one is giving him a template to go off of, so give the man a break. Try making a game that has to appeal to tens of millions of people yourself and see if you can do a better job pleasing the whole fanbase.
majora_787
Smash Hero
And here I thought absolutely no one appreciated what Sakurai actually manages.
It's not that easy going for the balance he wants from scratch and by himself.
Eternal phoenix Fire
Smash Hero
Well I don't think 3S is THAT unbalanced, even though you do have some characters like Twelve. Needless to say Guilty Gear is possibly one of the most balanced fighters ever made.
While I agree with the general idea that Sakurai should be respected, on the whole, I feel you have oversimplified the issue.
For instance, you are trying to assert that Sakurai didn't have a template. How can this be the case when he has already made 2 games prior to Brawl? Did you know that the P:M team was able to port character data directly from Melee to Brawl? The engines are incredibly similar.
However, the reason Sakurai can be accused as a shortsighted developer isn't because he lacked a "template", but rather, he seemingly opted not to use one. The goal of any developer who makes a sequel should be to exploit the success and shortcomings of the last game as much as possible. By completely revamping physics and mechanics, his frame of reference became completely discombobulated. His methodology of improvement isn't fixing issues, its completely removing their cause without any regard for the negative side effects such removals will bring. The most significant problems in Brawl can be directly correlated with the fact that Sakurai did not utilize his resources as effectively as he could have.
Sure, Sakurai is very talented and I respect him. However, he is entirely worthy of criticism. He arguably possesses a hubris which is that of poor integrity (shunned competitive players for the casual cash-cow) or that of an ego maniac (has an incredibly self-centered perspective regarding game balance and the on goings of how the community interacts with his games)
Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
NEVER should anyone be considered above criticism for having done something right, once. Is Smash is a brilliant and unique game series, meriting a lot of respect for its creator? You bet. It's the most unique fighting game in my opinion and the one that I enjoy the most. Does that mean that I'm not allowed to criticize Sakurai for making a lot of mistakes with Brawl?
Most. Decidedly. Not.
A similar (but not directly analogous situation) is George Lucas. He created and conceptualized Star Wars but the original trilogy was the final result of a lot of people working together. It's when Lucas got complete creative control, seeing himself as some sort of visionary and requiring additional contributions to conform to his own infallible ideas rather than allowing major changes to stem from others' viewpoints, that we got the prequels. Heck, even the Ewoks in Return of the Jedi were kind of ... what. Pure marketing gimmick and terrible storytelling tool.
The point being, a person merits as much criticism for his mistakes as he does praise for his achievements. A secondary point being that no creator is an island and would do well to remember that. Do I love Smash? Yes. Do I respect Sakurai? Yes. Do I feel he dropped the smashball with Brawl's physics, tripping, character design and overall balance? Oh yeah. And do I think Smash 4 will turn out better? Maybe, but I'm leaning towards yes.
Most. Decidedly. Not.
A similar (but not directly analogous situation) is George Lucas. He created and conceptualized Star Wars but the original trilogy was the final result of a lot of people working together. It's when Lucas got complete creative control, seeing himself as some sort of visionary and requiring additional contributions to conform to his own infallible ideas rather than allowing major changes to stem from others' viewpoints, that we got the prequels. Heck, even the Ewoks in Return of the Jedi were kind of ... what. Pure marketing gimmick and terrible storytelling tool.
The point being, a person merits as much criticism for his mistakes as he does praise for his achievements. A secondary point being that no creator is an island and would do well to remember that. Do I love Smash? Yes. Do I respect Sakurai? Yes. Do I feel he dropped the smashball with Brawl's physics, tripping, character design and overall balance? Oh yeah. And do I think Smash 4 will turn out better? Maybe, but I'm leaning towards yes.
majora_787
Smash Hero
I think the issue here is you are looking at the Smash Bros. series as a whole and think Sakurai did nothing but make massive 100% mistakes aside from Melee, which was 'no mistake central'. Sure Sakurai should be criticized for the mistakes he actually made, but they're kind of more specific and spaced out than "Melee was basically the only good thing he has done with his entire life". Games tend to not be 100% hit or 100% miss under any circumstance. Not even the best or worst.
I always wonder about that. I really really want watch the team while they're having a balancing session.
If it really is just 4 mindless (i.e. casual) players from the team with items on to cloud the action on screen some more, chain grabs EASILY can go unnoticed. There won't be many situations for them to happen in the first place.
Melee has some super obvious chain grabs as well and in my 5 years of casually playing it, they either never happened or maybe they happened once or twice but it's not like when they would have happened you and your friends would have paused the game in awe saying "THAT WORKS?" because why would you care.
And I actually even think the former is the case, they never happened because grab -> grab isn't intuitive, it's not something you'd naturally be going for I think, unless of course you've seen it before and play the game with another perspective.
Not saying Sakurai iosn't "to blame" here, if items FFA is all he considers then that's a bad strategy, but nobody would know about "them" (like they're a thing that'd even be worth remembering) if the item FFA "metagame" is all they're exposed to.
It continues to blows my mind every single time I think about how it's even possible for him to be so oblivious of what the vocal fanbase tries to scream at him and apparently of the depth of some facets of his very own game, no clue how that's possible. Maybe Miiverse and the much-bigger-than-in-2008 Twitter can change that a bit.
majora_787
Smash Hero
Mindless and casual are interchangeable now? And I am pretty sure items would be off or on depending on what is actually being balanced. Items only need to be on when items are being what is tested in gameplay. I imagine worst case scenario, his balance is centered exclusively around four player matches without items for character balance. But even that I doubt. He is working with a group and focusing very heavily on balance compared to previous titles, and I think that combination of things can only turn out well.
You know. Compared to "balancing a roster of 12, 26, or 39 respectively by yourself and having balance not be the number one priority".
Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
No, I'm not.
I don't feel like Melee is a perfect game and I tend to get very annoyed at people who think so. No game is perfect, really, and Melee is no exception. Brawl's multiple air-dodge mechanic is better in my opinion, making aerial combat more viable and Wavedashing, which principally arises from Melee air-dodge mechanics and is hence impossible in Brawl, feels more like a glitch being exploited than a legitimate strategic tool. I don't know to what extent Sakurai has ever commented on competitive Melee players "playing his game wrong" (In fact, I'm not sure if he's ever actually said that, just been misquoted maybe) but I can kind of see how one could view it as such. Melee is also hideously imbalanced outside of its well-explored top 8; that's a massive chunk of the cast done wrong, ignored and shafted. The fact that there are blatant clones put in to pad out the roster with minimal differences from the originals also doesn't sit well with me.
You're really putting words in my mouth here. I didn't mention Melee once. What I like about Smash games isn't Melee: It's the unique percent mechanic that eschews health bars for knockback, the fact that it invented the platform fighting genre and the fact that a wealth of strategies are possible that could let you get a kill on someone even when they're at zero percent. It's the fact that it can be a crazy free-for-all that a blast to play at parties with your friends or a strategic, in-depth, 1v1 duel system with a high skill ceiling should you want to take it more seriously. Its sheer appeal and diversity as well as its uniqueness as a series commands immense respect from me.
But even though Smash is awesome, Brawl has a lot of misfires. A lot. Admitting that isn't taking away from Smash's amazingness at all, but when mistakes are made, admitting them is key so they can be improved upon. If Brawl is the Jar Jar of Smash, it needs to be acknowledged as such. Games aren't perfect; neither are companies. It's okay to slip up once out of three as long as they try to improve from there.
You make a valid case there with chain-grabs in general. I don't think it applies to Dedede's specifically, because as Xenoblaze said, his D-Throw in particular has a slight wind hitbox that pushes foes out in front of him from underneath, making it the perfect set-up for another grab.
I don't understand why the game is balanced for FFA settings, because that sounds like the easiest way to guarantee that certain characters have advantages over others, since individual nuances aren't accounted for when characters are pitted against nondescript crowds of three instead. Considering FFAs quickly devolve into a series of one-on-one fights anyway, I'm baffled as to why those situations seemingly aren't given more consideration. Oh well, as that one guy said earlier, "It's out of our hands, don't worry about it."
I don't understand why the game is balanced for FFA settings, because that sounds like the easiest way to guarantee that certain characters have advantages over others, since individual nuances aren't accounted for when characters are pitted against nondescript crowds of three instead. Considering FFAs quickly devolve into a series of one-on-one fights anyway, I'm baffled as to why those situations seemingly aren't given more consideration. Oh well, as that one guy said earlier, "It's out of our hands, don't worry about it."
majora_787
Smash Hero
I am not putting words in your mouth. Nothing of what I said was quoting you. I was responding to your emphasis on Brawl as if it is basically one massive mistake as if 64 and Melee literally had nothing wrong in comparison, and Brawl had no positive traits about it in the slightest. Which in general I feel is a bad direction to go in with your perspective.
Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
Then why even bring up Melee when I was talking about the franchise as a whole, and Brawl in particular?
Look, I'm not arguing with you. In fact, I'm pretty sure we agree, because I also do not appreciate people viewing Melee as God's gift to gamers and seeing Brawl as a massive turd. I used to enjoy Brawl a lot, it was my first smash game and it has my favorite characters, Wolf and Ike. The only thing I'm saying is that Sakurai isn't above criticism just because he had a lot of good ideas with regards to the Smash games. He made quite a few mistakes in Brawl, which he seems to recognize and is trying to remedy, if the removal of tripping from SSB4 is any indication. That's really all I want.
majora_787
Smash Hero
Because to be entirely honest, as bad as it is to assume, people are generally a lot faster to put Melee on a pedestal than any other game in the series while ignoring its flaws.
I think Sakurai should be criticized for his more specific mistakes, and viewing a whole game of the series as essentially 'a mistake' seems like an overly negative perspective to have considering you're going in to criticize his mistakes as it is.
I also feel that since he's not alone in the balancing and making of the game, and more focus is actually being put on the quality of gameplay and the balance, we have less to worry about than we ever had.
I should sound less irritable later or tomorrow or something hopefully.
Did not mean to offend anyone. Casuals obviously are using their minds and try to think of ways to get better and beat their opponent (some don't really, though), should have said "unaware".
I cant' find the article anymore where he talked a bit about how he balances (I probably could find it, but I'm not going to go through all of them), ah well.
This is funny though because if anything, he said the complete opposite of what you just claimed he said in that very article this thread is about unless I'm misunderstanding you here.
I'm not pessimistic about the game or anything, I already commented on that some pages back.
It doesn't have a wind box fyi and it doesn't just set up for grabs, there's ftilt and the more situational dtilt as well.
And against ~10 characters he doesn't get anything (guaranteed) out of it, not entirely sure if it's just a weight thing, though but I believe it is.
So all in all it doesn't appear to me to be specifically designed towards him getting another grab, but who knows.
majora_787
Smash Hero
I think it's Sakurai and when he says something up front there is still a level of being able to take it multiple ways. Yay language barriers.Did not mean to offend anyone. Casuals obviously are using their minds and try to think of ways to get better and beat their opponent (some don't really, though), should have said "unaware".
I cant' find the article anymore where he talked a bit about how he balances (I probably could find it, but I'm not going to go through all of them), ah well.
This is funny though because if anything, he said the complete opposite of what you just claimed he said in that very article this thread is about unless I'm misunderstanding you here.
I'm not pessimistic about the game or anything, I already commented on that some pages back.
It doesn't have a wind box fyi and it doesn't just set up for grabs, there's ftilt and the more situational dtilt as well.
And against ~10 characters he doesn't get anything (guaranteed) out of it, not entirely sure if it's just a weight thing, though but I believe it is.
So all in all it doesn't appear to me to be specifically designed towards him getting another grab, but who knows.
I had a good response, but somehow I lost it. Not sure what I did. Gonna do bullet points instead
- The number can be easily skewed. If a Meta-Knight wins a big tournament, it throws off the results
- This proves popularity. If 5 Meta-Knights are in the top 8, then this will boost his earnings even if he doesn't win
- Melee players actively sabotage the game
- Players playing the game like Melee in its early years
- The game being removed from major tournaments (EVO, MLG)
Protom
Smash Lord
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- Brooklyn, New York
- NNID
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Ok mr sawk curry, as LNG as we have no meta knights or ganandorfs again, I'm good.
LiteralGrill
Smokin' Hot~
What would you say to the fact that we have to add surgical rules to keep him legal? Surely they could have done the same with Akuma to try and keep him controlled but didn't. I've never seen another fighter do what we did with MK, it's very strange.
The game has had silly dumb rules since Melee.
Consider Sudden Death. In Smash, if players are ever tied by lives, the game goes to Sudden Death. In tournaments, damage decides the winner. This rule has caused problems since Melee. In Melee, many stages were banned because fox could shoot his laser and run away for the rest of the match. In Brawl, Meta-Knight can camp the edge and attack when you get close. The player has to kill him to win (it's actually better in Brawl because Meta-Knight still has to come to you). I assume the rule you are talking about is planking. If Sudden Death was used, this behavior would change. Items also play a role in that too. The ISP say that the game is more balanced with items actually.
The infinate cape glitch is not a "Meta-Knight broken" thing. It is something that messes with the match. It's independent, so to speak.
I would love to continue talking about Sudden Death. That is one area where I think the community gets it wrong.
LiteralGrill
Smokin' Hot~
Planking, scrooging rules, and a few other random things have been done that are rather silly. I'd be good with Sudden Death if bombs didn't start dropping. Technically a PERFECT planker could just never get hit by a bomb but I dunno. Still, it'd be interesting to discuss I agree.
That's a lot of speculation. The fact remains that Meta knight is in complete control of the metagame by a large margin, far more than any character in Melee and 64, which is a lot more convincing than your conspiracy theories.
I think your missing context.
There are two different things being talked about here
1)Meta-Knight's dominance is overstated and has more to do with popularity than actual strength
2)You can't compare Brawl and Melee's meta-game because one is simply older and the actions of the community stunned it. I don't beleive we saw real tier list movement until about two years ago or so. Feel free to fact check me on that one.
As an aside, here is a video that discusses some of the data. It's about the Meta-Knight ban, but it should still be useful.
How can you simultaneously assert that MK is a highly popular, best-for-winning-tournaments character, but that his dominance is overstated?
You could probably make a reasonable argument that, in a vaccum, MK isn't dramatically better than every other character. However, the metagame isn't a vaccum. A metagame is a term used when describing the trends and state of competitive play. If that current trend is MK being the best due to his popularity and positive attributes, then his dominace cannot be overstated; its a fact.
And how can you prove that the metagame was stunted? That kind of speculation is really just relative since accepted competitive play was created by the community, anyway. From our perspective, the Brawl meta was more or less accelerated since Melee went through most of the "agreed tournament regulation" and growing pains for it; providing much of the framework for Brawl.
Furthermore, I remember hearing that the Japanese and US metagames are quite distinct from one another. Is this true? If so, why have both countries made similar conclusions regarding MK?
You could probably make a reasonable argument that, in a vaccum, MK isn't dramatically better than every other character. However, the metagame isn't a vaccum. A metagame is a term used when describing the trends and state of competitive play. If that current trend is MK being the best due to his popularity and positive attributes, then his dominace cannot be overstated; its a fact.
And how can you prove that the metagame was stunted? That kind of speculation is really just relative since accepted competitive play was created by the community, anyway. From our perspective, the Brawl meta was more or less accelerated since Melee went through most of the "agreed tournament regulation" and growing pains for it; providing much of the framework for Brawl.
Furthermore, I remember hearing that the Japanese and US metagames are quite distinct from one another. Is this true? If so, why have both countries made similar conclusions regarding MK?
Mr. Mumbles
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jun 13, 2013
- Messages
- 793
This thread started out interesting, but is now going in the usual circles.
PersonA: Melee is more X.
PersonB: No it isn't!
PersonC: Melee is not more Y!
PersonA: I didn't say Melee was more Y.
PersonC: You say X but mean Y! You know it to be true you Melee fanboy!
PersonD: Aren't we all Melee fanboys? It's kindof part of a series that we joined a forum just to talk about
PersonE: What? Talk of Unity among the community?! Destroy the heretic!
PersonA: I think we should all just get along... by agreeing that Melee is better.
PersonC: I knew it! You are a Melee fanboy!
PersonD: *sigh*
Blah blah blah etc etc. Here let me help you out. And then there were nazis. Alright we good? Excellent, now let's go start a thread about what other aspects of Majora's Mask we like to see in ssb4 or something.
PersonA: Melee is more X.
PersonB: No it isn't!
PersonC: Melee is not more Y!
PersonA: I didn't say Melee was more Y.
PersonC: You say X but mean Y! You know it to be true you Melee fanboy!
PersonD: Aren't we all Melee fanboys? It's kindof part of a series that we joined a forum just to talk about
PersonE: What? Talk of Unity among the community?! Destroy the heretic!
PersonA: I think we should all just get along... by agreeing that Melee is better.
PersonC: I knew it! You are a Melee fanboy!
PersonD: *sigh*
Blah blah blah etc etc. Here let me help you out. And then there were nazis. Alright we good? Excellent, now let's go start a thread about what other aspects of Majora's Mask we like to see in ssb4 or something.
Camsterchief
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Dec 6, 2013
- Messages
- 53
too me, I take that as him saying that not all the characters will be perfectly balanced against one another. As in, Link should have noticeable advantages over Ganondorf. Or Luigi&Mario/Fox&Falco are better and worse than each other in certain aspects.
Kind of like how Marth is supposedly the anti-Fox/Falco.
Camsterchief
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Dec 6, 2013
- Messages
- 53
crap, dude. another double post
Meta-Knight's popularity is a direct result of his dominance over the rest of the cast. This isn't unique to Brawl: every competitive game with a similarly dominate option (be it character, weapon, unit, etc.) will be the most frequently used in tournaments by high level players. Meta-Knight isn't played so excessively because he just so happens to be nearly all the top Smasher's favorite character.
I'll take your word for it, however irrelevant your case is. It's fairly safe to assume that Brawl's metagame matured much more quickly because of the community's experience with Melee, not in spite of it. However, let's pretend that the metagame has only recently began to develop because the community, as you seem to imply, actively sabotage the competitive scene, purposefully preventing Brawl from evolving. At this point, if we look at Melee's metagame late in 2003, the disparity between the top characters in competitive play was relatively negligible in comparison. In fact, Melee's representation was more diverse in every stage of its lifetime than Brawl's cast ever was in its entirety. Meta-Knight is cancerous to Smash no matter how you slice it.
I'm unable to view your video at this time, I may check it out later.
Not much to say here as we'll basically end up in a circular argument. What came first.......
That is possible as Melee didn't have a community early on, though there is defiantly a cut off point in Melee in terms of the characters. The top tier may be more diverse, but you still see the same characters turn out on top. Brawl has a lot of movement around with the rest of the characters. Heck, ZSS won Apex 2013 and I don't think she was very high up on the tier list.
As for the video, defiantly something you'll like.
Brawl's tier list does shift a bit when it comes to the upper tiers (excluding S tier), you're right about that. If I'm not mistaken Melee was the same way, so I imagine once it's settled we'll be able to have a much better idea on how the two games compare balance-wise. For now we'll have to agree to disagree, which is fine. Maybe we'll get back to it a few years later, if Brawl even has a community by that point anyway.
The video was interesting and definitely changed my perspective on a few things, though on some points I think he's a bit off-base. For one he says his recent losses have been to Meta-Knights, yet doesn't feel it was because the character was broken, just that he got outplayed. His main is Marth, who is one of the few characters that has a near-neutral matchup with MK, so of course he should feel that way. It's a moot point that does nothing to advance his argument. The numbers he presented as far as MK main % and prize pool distribution was interesting, though it would have been nice if he presented some actual evidence of Meta-Knight raking in some cash with only a handful of play time. Some additional research could have made his case stronger.
The video was interesting and definitely changed my perspective on a few things, though on some points I think he's a bit off-base. For one he says his recent losses have been to Meta-Knights, yet doesn't feel it was because the character was broken, just that he got outplayed. His main is Marth, who is one of the few characters that has a near-neutral matchup with MK, so of course he should feel that way. It's a moot point that does nothing to advance his argument. The numbers he presented as far as MK main % and prize pool distribution was interesting, though it would have been nice if he presented some actual evidence of Meta-Knight raking in some cash with only a handful of play time. Some additional research could have made his case stronger.