Ryu's neutral game

[Planty]

So first off, I'm going to say that I do NOT think Ryu is a bad character. I just want to talk about his neutral game. Sorry if I make any false statements. Please correct me if I do.

Ryu can't really play aggressively. He can't approach safely, he's too slow, his attacks have no range on them, he gets beaten by shield hard (is anything safe on shield?). Sure he has the strong f-tilt that breaks shields, but you have to be right next to somebody, their shield has to be worn out at a bit, and you have to know they will shield.

He can't really poke at people either with tilts. He doesn't have enough range to do that. Nearly any character has more range than him.

In terms of being a more defensive character, he can't do that either. He does't have the range necessary or the projectile (Hadouken is so poor. You could only have one at a time. You can't camp with it) And he has no anti-airs.

He can't even do footsies, because he's slow.

In pretty much any matchup, he'll either be outspaced, or camped out, or outsped, or pressured safely.

So I want to know: What does Ryu do well in neutral?

 

[BlueBirdE]

An invincible super powerful uppercut. Its still early to tell how hell do in the end but my theory is opponents will learn to fear ryu when his inputs and frame data is mastered. Meaning b reveral true specials,punish moves with true shoryuken. Making them respect your strong ftilt to mix in ur weak utilt and dtilts and being careful about whiff punishing especially if youre buffering a shoryuken. Im not saying hes sheik tier but definitely a solid character when looking at what he does have Fireball isnt completely useless. Theres a good range wheres its hard to react to and frame trapping with it could be a thing. Im gonna stick with ryu all the way till i found out

 

[Elessar]

In case you haven't read it yet, check out this advise from EmblemLord. I believe we can all agree that this is how we should be dealing with neutral now.

Ok, so running up to someone then rolling back is not an approach. It's a bait. And a bad one at that since you give up space which is like...every thing Ryu is not about. Ryu IS space control. Run up spot dodge again, just a bait. If you feel you want to roll do a dash in cross up roll behind them.

With Ryu your mentality should shift from attacking their shield to force a defensive response, to establish midrange dominance with pokes and safe footsies.

You keep trying to play him like a pure smash character. He is not. He is a traditional fighting game character in a Smash game. He has elements of his own game and elements of this one.

Do not think about approaching. Think about closing space and setting up an optimal zone where you control the pace of the match. If you want some pure smash approaches then dash behind SH bair is solid. Dash shield cancel d-tilt or d-smash is good. But really you should be focused on limiting options not just ramming shields with your limbs.

Take it slow. Walk alot. ALOT. Lots of empty jumps. Ryu has strong options from empty hops. Hadouken is still a thing. Nair will shut down dash grabs. FADC can draw out responses or you can FA absorb a dash attack then net a crumple combo. If they throw something at you, then you have the option of true tatsu which when timed right can blow through any non counter type attack or trade with other invincible moves.

For that midrange game Shakunetsu and regular hadoukens are your main tools. Hadoukens are good for opponents in the air or SHing, and shakunetsu is good for opponents on the ground. Generally you want slow hadoukens for optimal space control and they will be harder to spot dodge and get around. You wanna force a block for shield damage. This is why Shakunetsu is important. They can powershield the first hit, but not the following hits. You want that shield damage. When they block a few of those they have to then start trying to get around them or they get shield poked for free. Then your neutral game really kicks in. Hasty attacks are easily punished with shoryu out of shield. Bad jump ins fall victim to strong jab. Dash grabbing can be dealt with just by rolling away and resetting your spacing or with short hop nair.

Ryu is pure control, footsies and reaction. Force your will onto the opponent and watch them destroy themselves.

Here is the only video of me so far. It's online and even though there is a little goofing off you can still see alot of the concepts at work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4rr0_e2sko

 

[Emblem Lord]

So first off, I'm going to say that I do NOT think Ryu is a bad character. I just want to talk about his neutral game. Sorry if I make any false statements. Please correct me if I do.

Ryu can't really play aggressively. He can't approach safely, he's too slow, his attacks have no range on them, he gets beaten by shield hard (is anything safe on shield?). Sure he has the strong f-tilt that breaks shields, but you have to be right next to somebody, their shield has to be worn out at a bit, and you have to know they will shield.

He can't really poke at people either with tilts. He doesn't have enough range to do that. Nearly any character has more range than him.

In terms of being a more defensive character, he can't do that either. He does't have the range necessary or the projectile (Hadouken is so poor. You could only have one at a time. You can't camp with it) And he has no anti-airs.

He can't even do footsies, because he's slow.

In pretty much any matchup, he'll either be outspaced, or camped out, or outsped, or pressured safely.

So I want to know: What does Ryu do well in neutral?

This is all blatantly false. Ryus frame data is stupid impressive. You mean his mobility is poor. Indeed but thats fine if he has the tools to impose his will which he does.

Ryu is not an aggro char. Cant fault him for not being what he isnt meant to be. He does not lose to shield. He wrecks shield easy. He can poke at people all day really. Your spacing just has to be on point.

His AA game is second to none actually. Strong jab and of course true shoryu deny anyone and everyone.

I never thought I would see the day where someone said Ryu cannot play footsies. Not even in a game where he crossed over.

 

[Elessar]

I never thought I would see the day where someone said Ryu cannot play footsies. Not even in a game where he crossed over.

Hey, believe the impossible.

 

[Emblem Lord]

For the record I know Ryu seems strange at first and its hard to get in a groove, but once you do you just start wrecking fools and match-up wise i only fear a few characters. And it feels awesome to have a kill punish when sumone takes a risk and it whiffs or gets blocked.

@ P Planty Keep training and maintaining. Ryu is worth it.

 

[DisidisiD]

i only fear a few characters.

Just out of curiousity, Who might these characters be?

 

[Day One]

Ive been messing with Ryu for a while he is a secondary but might even become a main. from my experience i bait out reactions with his short dash. (i feel this is his biggest skill to get in close or to "dash dance") I use light ftilt to poke shield, or faking a heavy ftilt into a light ftilt to make them drop their shield the pop up sets up for a uair or fair. I play him best when i get momentum from a punish.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Sheik, ZSS, Rosalina, Ike and Villager can be tough too as well as Megaman.

 

[Teh Sandwich]

Ryu is so good at footsies. Just look at that soft dtilt..

 

[HoodedAltair]

Sheik, ZSS, Rosalina, Ike and Villager can be tough too as well as Megaman.

Hmmm from my tourney matches I can confirm Shiek and ZSS as my opponents also felt the MU was in their favor. Rosalina I think we win 55:45. We have the tools to take out luma and kill her early. She can shield grab us easy and juggle easy. Both advantages but ours are stronger. Ike I don't see.....I really don't see. His moves are all one hit and no projectiles. He seems like an FADC gold mind. Villager... I can see but still seems decent. I played it twice in tourney today and lost to the good one but close games. Without customs I'd say its pretty even. Just take them to the right stage.

 

[Renegade TX2000]

I agree with ZSS, Sheik.

You can kiss my ass on Ike though. Lmfao, me talking to Ike personally we've agreed that ryu can wreck ike. Ike can do all the fancy baits all he wants, focus attack eliminates the mindgames then you can either back dash or forward ash out to punish ike or to stop him in his tracks or hell just use another focus attack lmfao.

i think we need to understand the ZSS MU more. I think it's even but we are losing to her because we don't understand the match up fully yet.

Sheik reminds me of the snake vs mk MU back in brawl. MK wins on paper but we got some BS tactics to throw in there to disrupt sheik and have her second guessing herself.

No idea on Rosalina...

Also Ryu has the best come back factor period. Yes, even over lil mac.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Yeah ok my thoughts now are he loses to Sheik, ZSS, Diddy (very,very slight. Ryu lives forever in this match), Lucas and Megaman (also very slight. Megaman has problems and Ryu hits really hard)

Everyone else feels close.

Ryu beats down footsie characters though. So basically all sword users cept maybe Link. Mauls Bowser and Ganon imo.

 

[Planty]

Ryu is not an aggro char. Cant fault him for not being what he isnt meant to be. He does not lose to shield. He wrecks shield easy. He can poke at people all day really. Your spacing just has to be on point.

I know that his weak F-tilt and strong d-tilt are safe on shield (is strong jab safe?), but the point is that while he can use them to poke at people, he's so lacking in range that many characters just don't let him sit there and kick them. How can he get into that perfect position when he's so outspaced almost all the time, but he doesn't have the movement to make up for it?

His AA game is second to none actually. Strong jab and of course true shoryu deny anyone and everyone.

Well I never thought of strong jab so thanks for that. But shoryuken is extremely punishable. It's usually preferable to not use a move that puts you into free fall during neutral...If you get baited, you're getting punished. Not to mention that both those moves are very lacking in horizontal range (unless true shoryuken has some kind of invisible hitbox), so against longer range aerials, he just has to respect them.

I never thought I would see the day where someone said Ryu cannot play footsies. Not even in a game where he crossed over.

Isn't movement an important part of playing footsies? (and to a lesser extent, range too. Right?)

Yeah ok my thoughts now are he loses to Sheik, ZSS, Diddy (very,very slight. Ryu lives forever in this match), Lucas and Megaman (also very slight. Megaman has problems and Ryu hits really hard)

Olimar? How does Ryu get in on Olimar? As long as Olimar doesn't do anything dumb, I just can't see Ryu winning here. There's even a guy on the Olimar boards who thinks that Ryu vs Olimar matchup is very lopsided in Olimar's favor.

 

[HoodedAltair]

Olimar? How does Ryu get in on Olimar? As long as Olimar doesn't do anything dumb, I just can't see Ryu winning here. There's even a guy on the Olimar boards who thinks that Ryu vs Olimar matchup is very lopsided in Olimar's favor.

I got a chance to play and win this MU in friendies at my last tournament. Not to say the olimar I faced was his main but a very good players secondary. I won the game but I do think the MU is bad. Olimar can really keep us out with pikmin....and i think the pikmin throws beat our hadoukens. I got in with jump in attacks, tomahawks, and FADC mind games to attacks....just as I get in on any other char. Some characters just have a better defensive wall then others.

 

[Elessar]

....and i think the pikmin throws beat our hadoukens.

The problem is that everything beats our hadoukens. I have a couple of offline sparring partners who caught up to this and they don't even bother shielding the hadouken anymore, they just Jab or ftilt at it and beat it like that.

 

[HoodedAltair]

The problem is that everything beats our hadoukens. I have a couple of offline sparring partners who caught up to this and they don't even bother shielding the hadouken anymore, they just Jab or ftilt at it and beat it like that.

yeah but i didn't want to confirm it with olimar without testing...but yeah hadoukens priority sucks

 

[icraq]

The problem is that everything beats our hadoukens. I have a couple of offline sparring partners who caught up to this and they don't even bother shielding the hadouken anymore, they just Jab or ftilt at it and beat it like that.

have you tried mixing up the speed on the hadouken? im guessing just about anyone can easily swat away hadoukens regardless of speed but maybe you could throw them off a bit with it. i'm starting to think aerial hadoukens sent right before landing are really good, except against shorties.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Jabbing hadoukens puts them in recoil stun.

You want this to happen.

And yeah Olimar is probably a bad match. I just honestly forgot about him.

Strong jab does not lack range trust me. It hits further then you think, but its up to you to be able to react to people trying to sh aerial in your face. Ryu relies heavily on counter poking.

For spacing get used to empty hops. Its his best spacing option.

 

[Elessar]

Jabbing hadoukens puts them in recoil stun.

You want this to happen.

And yeah Olimar is probably a bad match. I just honestly forgot about him.

Strong jab does not lack range trust me. It hits further then you think, but its up to you to be able to react to people trying to sh aerial in your face. Ryu relies heavily on counter poking.

For spacing get used to empty hops. Its his best spacing option.

I do believe there to be a slight I frame and disjoint at the tip of H Jab. I was surprised a couple of time by the range being slightly greater than I expected.

Also, is Ryu fast enough to take advantage of the recoil stun? I haven't been able yet, but I'm not sure if that's because I'm reacting too slow or if because Ryu just doesn't have the necessary speed.

 

[PapaJ]

Sheik, ZSS, Rosalina, Ike and Villager can be tough too as well as Megaman.

ive found villager to be easier espeically since all of Ryus attacks either hurt or combo into something that does. Once you get a percent lead Villager has to approach you and his approaches are obvious and not as strong as Ryus. It depends on which type of villager you are playing but in

I do believe there to be a slight I frame and disjoint at the tip of H Jab. I was surprised a couple of time by the range being slightly greater than I expected.

Also, is Ryu fast enough to take advantage of the recoil stun? I haven't been able yet, but I'm not sure if that's because I'm reacting too slow or if because Ryu just doesn't have the necessary speed.

It depends on if Ryu can move or not when they go into recoil. For example if you launch a slow moving hado by the time you can move the hado is still out and the opponent can jab it an you could probably run up and grab. But if they are too close and jab while you are in recovery you cannot punish, at least punish well.

Edit: side note, and ive probably said this before, I really wish S.hado had increased durability on at least projectiles such as MegaMan's lemons.

 

[Emblem Lord]

It's 100% spacing dependent on whether or not you can take advantage of recoil. He cannot punish it really, but it should not hurt his neutral game if they are jabbing hadoukens at mid screen distance. Plus if they are waiting for a hadouken, then what are they not doing? They are not ready to dodge a dash grab because they arent looking for that. Gotta mix it up.

Ryu has no flow chart I cannot stress this enough. You have to know all your options and be able to feel what your opponent will do.

 

[PapaJ]

It's 100% spacing dependent on whether or not you can take advantage of recoil. He cannot punish it really, but it should not hurt his neutral game if they are jabbing hadoukens at mid screen distance. Plus if they are waiting for a hadouken, then what are they not doing? They are not ready to dodge a dash grab because they arent looking for that. Gotta mix it up.

Ryu has no flow chart I cannot stress this enough. You have to know all your options and be able to feel what your opponent will do.

Lol if he was Ken we'd have a flowchat . But seriously one of Ryu's biggest strengths is that he can adapt to most any situation. Tatsu can eat most projectiles, catch rollers. Hado and S.hado are good for pressure of some kind, Dmash is an insane 5 Frame punish, SRK beats everything, etc, etc. Ryu has the tools for most everything it's just gonna take some time learning when to utilize said options

 

[BlueBirdE]

A little trick thats been working for me is whiffing a light true shoryu and buffering another baiting an opponent to punish. Similar to sf2 style where shoryu didnt have that much end recovery. Ive had times where an opponent rolled behind my light true shoryu and i b reversal true shoryu them when they dash in

 

[Renegade TX2000]

why use ryus weak ftilt over dsmash? It seems like dsmash is the superior move. quicker, does more dmg, and puts you back into a good hadouken range.

If you want to ftilt, i just say use the held version of it instead for shield pressure and if it lands you can actually use follow ups a lot better then ftilt. I dunno I just think ryu's Weak Ftilt is strange garbage.

 

[PapaJ]

why use ryus weak ftilt over dsmash? It seems like dsmash is the superior move. quicker, does more dmg, and puts you back into a good hadouken range.

If you want to ftilt, i just say use the held version of it instead for shield pressure and if it lands you can actually use follow ups a lot better then ftilt. I dunno I just think ryu's Weak Ftilt is strange garbage.

i use weak Ftilt for pressure on shields. Range is pretty good, it has a small disjoint. But if I know I can land the Dsmash Im going for Dsmash.

 

[Elessar]

why use ryus weak ftilt over dsmash? It seems like dsmash is the superior move. quicker, does more dmg, and puts you back into a good hadouken range.

If you want to ftilt, i just say use the held version of it instead for shield pressure and if it lands you can actually use follow ups a lot better then ftilt. I dunno I just think ryu's Weak Ftilt is strange garbage.

Most it's for comboing imho. The Tftilt can be used to combo into a Fair or other aerials since it has less kb and kb growth than dsmash.

 

[icraq]

Less end lag on ftilt. Dsmash for hard punish. Light ftilt for pokes, and I dig it for roll behinds.

It doesn't combo but it does put people in a bad situation. It is pretty easy to follow up with fair but you can also empty hop in and do whatever when they air dodge into the ground. If they waste their second jump it's another win.

 

[Renegade TX2000]

Most it's for comboing imho. The Tftilt can be used to combo into a Fair or other aerials since it has less kb and kb growth than dsmash.

I went into training mode, his ftilt doesn't combo into anything just puts them in a bad spot.

his multiple weak dtilts doesn't combo into strong Dtilt as well.

 

[Elessar]

I went into training mode, his ftilt doesn't combo into anything just puts them in a bad spot.

his multiple weak dtilts doesn't combo into strong Dtilt as well.

I actually found that the other day vs a charizard. He was able to Jab during my transition from t dtilt to h dtilt, which really confused me.

Anyways, maybe combo wouldn't be the right word, but t dtilt can be linked to other moves, as well as reset spacing and giving you chance to tech chase/chase and take the offense for a sec.

 

[PapaJ]

I went into training mode, his ftilt doesn't combo into anything just puts them in a bad spot.

his multiple weak dtilts doesn't combo into strong Dtilt as well.

The thing is while it doesn't combo most people get hit by it because they are usually pressing buttons which means, since they are in an aerial state after the Weak Dtilt, they get hit with endlag and that is what combos into Strong Dtilt.

Edit: @ Elessar I think a better term would be "set up" into Strong Dtilt. Since it doesn't combo but puts them in a bad position if they mess up?

 

[Elessar]

The thing is while it doesn't combo most people get hit by it because they are usually pressing buttons which means, since they are in an aerial state after the Weak Dtilt, they get hit with endlag and that is what combos into Strong Dtilt.

Edit: @ Elessar I think a better term would be "set up" into Strong Dtilt. Since it doesn't combo but puts them in a bad position if they mess up?

Yes, that would be the perfect term, thanks. I'm a bit slow today, sorry.

 

[Renegade TX2000]

I went into training mode, his ftilt doesn't combo into anything just puts them in a bad spot.

his multiple weak dtilts doesn't combo into strong Dtilt as well.

if you fight a character like Greninja and he DI's down. He can actually block your spammed tapped dtilt.

 

[Elessar]

if you fight a character like Greninja and he DI's down. He can actually block your spammed tapped dtilt.

Wouldn't that depend on dmg percent though? At higher %s there is greater kb so he shouldn't be able to hit the ground before another t dtilt comes out.

 

[BlueBirdE]

Weak dtilts does combo into the strong dtilt. Ex. With falco you have to time the weak dtilts like links in sf4. I was able to do 3 weak dtilts to strong dtilt tatsu for 5 hit combo 25%. I dont think it works on all characters and ofcourse this is only training mode.

 

[Renegade TX2000]

Wouldn't that depend on dmg percent though? At higher %s there is greater kb so he shouldn't be able to hit the ground before another t dtilt comes out.

I tested this at 999% training mode...

1st hit of up tilt

Tap Dtilt

1st and 2nd hit of jab


All have a set knock back that no matter how much rage you have or percent they have they will always be in the same hitstun/knockback.

 

[Elessar]

Hitstun yes, kb yes, but kb growth varies. This is why when you spam tdtilt or utilt th eother char slowly gets higher and higher until you have to space out your tilts lest the other char be pushed far enough as to escape the chain without actually DIing. For instance, if your opponent is at 200% you can't true combo 3 t ultits because the second one will push the char far enough that the 3rd hit will miss, regardless of DI or non DI.

 

[Renegade TX2000]

Hitstun yes, kb yes, but kb growth varies. This is why when you spam tdtilt or utilt th eother char slowly gets higher and higher until you have to space out your tilts lest the other char be pushed far enough as to escape the chain without actually DIing. For instance, if your opponent is at 200% you can't true combo 3 t ultits because the second one will push the char far enough that the 3rd hit will miss, regardless of DI or non DI.

I know all about up tilt. Ryu's best tilt hands down...

I just don't see a difference with tapped dtilt.

 

[Elessar]

I know all about up tilt. Ryu's best tilt hands down...

I just don't see a difference with tapped dtilt.

The difference is hitbox coverage. Tdtilt covers a low hitbox, once the opponent is high enough he'll escape more easily that t utilt which covers a larger area. Pretty sure I'm not explaining myself properly.

Anyways, I have been hit by charizard mid tdtilts. At least hat much I know.

 

[Renegade TX2000]

The difference is hitbox coverage. Tdtilt covers a low hitbox, once the opponent is high enough he'll escape more easily that t utilt which covers a larger area. Pretty sure I'm not explaining myself properly.

Anyways, I have been hit by charizard mid tdtilts. At least hat much I know.

If they were to buff ryu I'd just like some consistency buffs. hahahaha that's pretty much all there is