RTPs (Read this now)

[titus]

What's so bad about overwhelming people with information?

Until wii meet again,
Wii4Mii 99

re-arrange the positioning of the 'o' and the 't' in about, and then read the bold letters.



why is it bad? well, because its annoying to have to read more than you have to read, or even to write more than you have to write.

 

[Chill]

My main concern wasn't with having this similar to other sites but with having it become redundant. Let's say we're doing a pokemon like Bronzong. According to what we have now we should be listing a moveset and it's uses.

"Fake set"
blah
blah
blah
Calm mind

Then beneath we have the description. "Calm mind helps Broznzongs already strong defensive stats and his trait and typing allow him the time to set up, etcetera, etcetera."

Then at the end we would list the advantages of his typing and base stats. The thing is we would have already covered this information when we listed the movesets and comments below. That's what I was concerned about. I just don't want it to come across as repetitive.

I'm looking through the ideas presented right now,more to come.

 

[Wii4Mii 99]

re-arange the positioning of the 'o' and the 't' in about, and then read the bold letters.



why is it bad? well, because its annoying to have to read more than you have to read, or even to write more than you have to write.

What? That's what I posted.

What's so bad about overwhelming people with information?

^ That's what I posted.

Edit: Oh... I get it.

So, whaddya think, Chill?

Until wii meet again,
Wii4Mii 99

 

[Metadour-2]

if people don't wanna be overwhelmed with info, they don't have to read past the movesets.

NO ONE IS FORCING YOU TO READ ANYTHING.
we're trying to differentiate.
And if you still prefer smogon, i don't think there's much we can do.

I'll still take suggestions, if we can come to a compromise, that would rock...

 

[ss118]

I hate Smogon cause they don't have a Choice Specs Blissey set...

 

[Wii4Mii 99]

I hate Smogon cause they don't have a Choice Specs Blissey set...

Yeah they do.

http://www.smogon.com./forums/showthread.php?t=27537

Ours will be b3tr, though.

Until wii meet again,
Wii4Mii 99

 

[Metadour-2]

you HAD to point that out W4M.

ROFL! CHOICE BLISSEY.

But hey, if it works, that's just fine with me.
Weird sets like that somehow found their way into our RTPs anyway.

I miss those things...

I SAY TO FIX THE REDUNDANCY PROBLEMS I GO BACK OVER AND EDIT OUT ANYTHING THAT HAS BEEN SAID BEFORE.

what say you to this chill?
or is more needed..?

 

[Wii4Mii 99]

-Pay no attention to this post. Move on...-

 

[Wii4Mii 99]

My main concern wasn't with having this similar to other sites but with having it become redundant. Let's say we're doing a pokemon like Bronzong. According to what we have now we should be listing a moveset and it's uses.

"Fake set"
blah
blah
blah
Calm mind

Then beneath we have the description. "Calm mind helps Broznzongs already strong defensive stats and his trait and typing allow him the time to set up, etcetera, etcetera."

Then at the end we would list the advantages of his typing and base stats. The thing is we would have already covered this information when we listed the movesets and comments below. That's what I was concerned about. I just don't want it to come across as repetitive.

I'm looking through the ideas presented right now,more to come.

I decided to carefully read this, and agree. But, would this mean that pretty much only Uses and Counters would still be done, since Typing, Base Stats, Movepool and Ability would already be done in the moveset explanation?

Until wii meet again,
Wii4Mii 99

 

[Metadour-2]

New Format V 2.0

This is what we have.
Every piece of advice, gathered from as many people as possible, put together into this format.

it'll be edited and RE edited for repetitiveness, format issues, and for proper calculations and sourcing, by me and hopefully Wii4Mii as well.

i would post a sample one for you chill, and then if you would see how it works now...

I just need some permission.
And if ANYTHING, anything at all, is still wrong with it.
Sorry if i'm being too persistent.
I just think this is worth fighting for.

This is, i think, what we've done for the format so far.

[Pic]
Pokemon Name: ****
National Pokedex Number:
Metagame Tier:
Ability: ****/****
Type: ???/???
Base Stats:

-Hp ***
-Attk ***
-Def ***
-Sp. Attk ***
-Sp. Def ***
-Spd ***

Then have a CONTENT section.

1: MOVESETS
2: TYPING
3: BASE STATS
4: MOVE POOL
5: ABILITY
6: USES
7: COUNTERS

Movesets with comments below each one explaining it's use.

Moveset Name: Sweeper/ Supporter, etc
Hold Item
Ability
Nature
EVs: ***
move 1
move 2
move 3/optional move(s)
move 4/ optional move(s)

and post more movesets if they exist. Explain the reasoning behind each move, the EVs, the nature, EVERYTHING. And try to make it in depth but not too lengthy.

Then use Metadours format to go really indepth for those who wish to learn more about the pokemon.

-Typing
OFFENSIVELY-What coverage to the pokemon's STAB moves grant it? What pokemon are they especially useful for?
DEFENSIVELY-What Weaknesses does the pokemon have (and how common is that move type)? What resistances and immunities, if any(and how useful are they)?

-Base Stats
OFFENSIVELY-(Mostly the pokemon's Base ATTACK, SPECIAL ATTACK, AND SPEED. Discounting stat altering moves and the like entirely, on based on the pokemon's BASE stats)
DEFENSIVELY-(Mostly the pokemon's Base DEFENSE, SPECIAL DEFENSE, AND HIT POINTS. Same rules that apply for OFFENSIVE base stats)


-Move Pool
OFFENSIVELY-Which (useful) offensive moves does it carry (and how broad is the type diversity)? What types can this pokemon effectively cover? Are they any pokemon that resist the majority of this pokemon's moves?
DEFENSIVELY-What moves can this pokemon viably use defensively?

For movepool we could actually list all of the viable moves available to the pokemon, list all of the physical options, the special options, and then the other options (defensive/supportive).

-Ability
OFFENSIVELY-What does the pokemon's ability do for it offensively?
DEFENSIVELY-What does the pokemon's ability do for it defensively?


-Uses
OFFENSIVELY-How many different battle roles can this pokemon fill offensively? How important are these roles to the typical six pokemon team?
DEFENSIVELY-How many different battle roles can this pokemon fill defensively? How important are these roles to the typical six pokemon team?

-Counters
Offensively - What pokemon does this pokemon, in their respective tier, effectively counter, and state how and why it can.
Defensively - What pokemon make an effective counter to the pokemon rated, in their respective tier. Specify how and why.

Those, of course, have to be color coded according to what i originally suggested.
AND MOVESETS must be in BOLD, UNDERLINED, WHITE FORMAT.


well, that's it.
I have nothing else to say.

 

[titus]

I dont understand why you feel the need to explain everything to such detail. wouldnt it be easier to just explain each set once, rather than. . . . more than once?

@W4M
you betr not be comin up in here talkin that $hit, aite! dont you make me bust a c@p in yo @$$. lol, Cspecs blissey, well, its not quite as useful as my choice scarf flailing, splashing magikarp but yeah, its actually not that bad an idea, its like scarfmence, surprising.

 

[Metadour-2]

@ titus
you did a good job on the absol RTP only there's one thing
it shouldn't have been posted.
you should have PMd me.
I think that's the reason chill closed that one too.

And it wasn't according to the new format either, but it was close.

if chill ever approves this, i'd appreciate your help
however until that point in time i'd aprreciate it if you respected chills rules and not post anymore RTPs.

and as for the whole detail thing, if you don't want to read all the detail, then don't.
the moveset sections is first anyway, so just read that and stop.
that simple.

 

[titus]

@Metadour-2
oh, well, oops. I sorta saw the one above mine, and thought I would do one too, if I had remembered that you guys were still figuring this thing out I wouldnt have posted it. I can always edit the format anyways.

ok well here is an idea. the reason that chill is closing all of these RTP threads is because he/she is worried about the poke center being over run by these things if i am not mistaken. so my solution is that each one of us that wants to make them makes a single thread with multiple RTPs, or even have just one RTP thread and certain ppl are in charge of making the RTPs. and to make it easier to navigate through the thread you could even have them made in a certain order, whether it is done by the pokemon number or in alphabetical order or w/e.

 

[Chill]

[Pic]
Pokemon Name: ****
National Pokedex Number:
Metagame Tier:
Ability: ****/****
Type: ???/???
Base Stats:

-Hp ***
-Attk ***
-Def ***
-Sp. Attk ***
-Sp. Def ***
-Spd ***

MOVESETS
Move 1
Move 2
Move 3/ optional move(s)
Move 4/ optional move(s)

Movesets with comments below each one explaining it's use

COUNTERS
List which pokemon counter this one and why.

CONTENT SECTION
Summary of the pokemon. Briefly cover what we've been through and add anything that may not have fit in another section such as Gyarados pairing with electric abosrbing pokemon.

MOVEPOOL Physical:
List physical moves with notable moves in bold.

Movepool Special:
List special moves with notable moves in bold.

Movepool support:
List support moves with notable moves in bold.
---------------------------

So this is what I came up with after reading the suggestions of everyone here.I thought it might be a good idea to include the movepool section as a good way to see what moves (and possibly at which level) you can learn them. It might be a bit much though. What do you think?

 

[Zook]

I don't think that the national Pokedex number is neccessary.

Do defensive moves also fall under support? If not, add in a defensive section.

 

[Chill]

The number is just an addition like having a picture of the pokemon. Someone else suggested it and I put it in there.

There is no defensive section in the format I just posted.

 

[JTB]

The summary of the Pokemon should go above the movesets, IMO. That way people know the role of the Pokemon before reading them.

Edit - Also, why not throw some common damage calculations too? Those are extremely helpful, but Smogon/Serebii don't use those.

 

[Metadour-2]

i was going too, but a whole heck of a lot of people believe it "too much."

i personally don't see it as so, but this is for the benefit of the community, so we pretty much have to do what they recommend.

the movsets go above the summary once again at the request of the community. Most people found it too much even to read info on movepools and the other information that chill has in his format. So we thought we would post what was absolutely neccessary first, that way if you wanted to stop reading after the moveset section, it would be a lot simpler.

i think the formats have been so severely altered from what i originally invisioned, which is in some ways good but in other ways painful.
If that is the direction the RTPs continue to follow, i would rather a more respected member of the community, someone who would agree to the newer format, take my place as "president" of those RTPs. I am humble enough to say that if I cannot run these properly, I would rather see it work out with some else more qualified for the position than hold us back.

I think Wii4Mii would fit the description, should he be willing.
Anybody else that thinks they could take the responsibility if it indeed be neccessary to "pass the torch" should step up soon.

i'm not resigning or anything.
I'm just...being responsible.
I hope it works out either way.

 

[Wii4Mii 99]

i was going too, but a whole heck of a lot of people believe it "too much."

i personally don't see it as so, but this is for the benefit of the community, so we pretty much have to do what they recommend.

the movsets go above the summary once again at the request of the community. Most people found it too much even to read info on movepools and the other information that chill has in his format. So we thought we would post what was absolutely neccessary first, that way if you wanted to stop reading after the moveset section, it would be a lot simpler.

i think the formats have been so severely altered from what i originally invisioned, which is in some ways good but in other ways painful.
If that is the direction the RTPs continue to follow, i would rather a more respected member of the community, someone who would agree to the newer format, take my place as "president" of those RTPs. I am humble enough to say that if I cannot run these properly, I would rather see it work out with some else more qualified for the position than hold us back.

I think Wii4Mii would fit the description, should he be willing.
Anybody else that thinks they could take the responsibility if it indeed be neccessary to "pass the torch" should step up soon.

i'm not resigning or anything.
I'm just...being responsible.
I hope it works out either way.

I read this, and understand completely.

Metadour started the RTPs, but the main problem was they lacked an organized format. Chill didn't want the Poke Center to be flooded with these messy RTPs, so he said something about it and made this sticky to discuss. After some researching, Metadour suggested a new format, which, I must say, might have had too much information beyond what was needed. After a little tweaking, his format could've been a masterpiece. Then, Chill posted his own format that seemed to have nothing Metadour would've wanted. It's perfectly fine that Chill can say his opinion, but Metadour was still the creator of the RTPs, so the format should have at least some things Metadour would want. If Metadour can't have his own opinion in things, I can see why the creator would fell he has little use. The people at the Poke Center have to agree on a format, or at least the people making the RTPs.

Until wii meet again,
Wii4Mii 99

 

[Chill]

The summary of the Pokemon should go above the movesets, IMO. That way people know the role of the Pokemon before reading them.

Edit - Also, why not throw some common damage calculations too? Those are extremely helpful, but Smogon/Serebii don't use those.

Well, the point of a summary is to summarize information you've covered. You can't truly have a summary if you haven't discussed anything yet. The set name would tell you which set is designed for which purpose. Obviously, a set called "Sweeper" would be for sweeping. This is also what the comments section is for.

Damage calcs would go in the set comments when applicable. If you can say "a swords dance earthquake from this pokemon OHKOs it's most common counters including, pokemon a, b, and c", then there's not much reason to list damage calcs as such.

Attack does %100 to pokemon a

Attack does %110 to pokemon b

Attack does %99 to pokemon c

Damage calcs should be used when creating a new set or spread but outside of that there are easier ways to get across information.

I don't think we should get hung up on who started what. Rating pokemon this way has been done before so the idea itself is not completely original. Also, in the format I posted ,which isn't necessarily the one we'll use, I'm still using Metadours format. It contains basically everything he first posted just stripped to it's core.

The RTPs are already different from others the moment we list the base stats. No other analysis currently does this and it's a helpful feature. That's something that needs to be remembered, the idea is not just to create something different but to create something that can be helpful.

edit: One last thing, EVERYONE'S opinion is important. That's why I opened this up instead of making up something on my own. The format I used (again not necessarily the final) is a culmination of the opinions and ideas of everyone who has posted here as I saw it.

 

[9Kplus1]

Try THIS!!!

Why not just put them all in one thread and everyone can follow their own format, just delete this one, Post the new guidelines up in the RMT guidelines thread and make a new thread for RTPs only.

 

[titus]

Woah, I said to do that! But no-one listened to me.

 

[Chill]

Why not just put them all in one thread and everyone can follow their own format, just delete this one, Post the new guidelines up in the RMT guidelines thread and make a new thread for RTPs only.

Putting them all in one thread will make it too hard to find a particular pokemon.

Everyone doing what they want = RMTs before I made guidlines. We're definatley going to follow a set guidline. Unless anyone has anything they want to add it looks like this discussion is coming to a close.

 

[9Kplus1]

Well then, why not have them in order? Someone makes a RTP starting from Bulbasaur then, the next person does Ivysaur and so on...

 

[Wii4Mii 99]

Well then, why not have them in order? Someone makes a RTP starting from Bulbasaur then, the next person does Ivysaur and so on...

LOL You mean Venusaur, then Charizard, then Blastoise, etc?

Originally, I was going to say tyou could search for the Pokemon in the thread using the search function, but I realized the Pokemon's name may be somewhere else in another Pokemon's analysis.

I don't care what format wii use. I just want to start doing some...

Until wii meet again,
Wii4Mii 99

 

[JTB]

Why not make a subforum for RPTs? It would make everything alot more organized.

 

[Wii4Mii 99]

Why not make a subforum for RPTs? It would make everything alot more organized.

You know what? I was going to suggest that, but forgot about it.

And I'm not saying that just to try to be a hotshot, to be all cool, or to impress people.

Until wii meet again,
Wii4Mii 99

 

[ss118]

Just wondering, why don't we make RTP threads, they get about 10+ posts of HELPFUL advice for it, at most. Then Chill closes it.
Or it may die by itself, if it's that good.
Then Chill could make a stickyed topic with an index of all the made RTP, in numeral or alphabetical order.
just my idea

 

[mood4food77]

i know gfaqs has a poke rate thread by one kid, but i don't know

why don't all of us smart ones here (we probably know by now who they are *cough* wii4mii*) and make a new thread

 

[Wii4Mii 99]

i know gfaqs has a poke rate thread by one kid, but i don't know

why don't all of us smart ones here (we probably know by now who they are *cough* wii4mii*) and make a new thread

Who's Wii4Mii?

Anyways, what JTB and ss118 think seem very good. The sub-forums would be completely up to Chill, who'd have to create it.

Until wii meet again,
Wii4Mii 99

Oh... THAT's Wii4Mii... He's cool.

 

[Creo]

..I don't want to get into this and have no clue if people have suggested it but what if Chill or someone puts all the RTP's in one thread[would take like 7 posts by the same person but an exception]and all the Pokemon are in order from Pokedex. Sure it wouldn't be completely easy to find but it would all be in one. Sticky it and close the thread. Would that work?

 

[ss118]

Or he could edit the thread whenever a new one happens :/

 

[Chill]

Now you guys are talking about an entirely different subject. Looks like we're done here.

More info on RTPs will be posted soon.

 

[Chill]

I revived this so the discussion wouldn't muddy up the RTP.

For one, I never implied that everyone should use this format. It's my own prefered format, and I used it because I think it's a more organized way of doing it.

I know you didn't but that's not what I'm saying. If I let you use your own prefered format why shouldn't I let the next person use their own?

I think this is something that should be discussed because it was brought up as an option before. "why not just let everyone do it how they want" I'm trying to use some forthought here. It might not seem like a big deal to change one section on yours but in the future this might become a problem. Where do I draw the line on what can be changed and what can't? This isn't necassarily about your RTP specifically but about future RTPs.

"But you let Coen do this so why can't I do mine this way?" "I think it's better this way"?

Do you see where I'm going?

By the way. my mod status has nothing to do with this. I respect other people's opinion's as equal to mine. There is indeed no truth in saying a mod's opinion is 'better' because it isn't.

Sorry, Chill. I did not mean to offend you in any way.

That's true but other people may not see it this way. Don't worry I'm not offended at all. It's just when looking at any other site you can see that their pokemon "RTPs" all follow a specific format, there's a reason for that. I'm just worried that if everyone does thing their own way it will appear for lack of a better word, unproffesional.

Like I said, I actually like your way more so let me put it to you differently. Let's say someone reads the pikachu RTP and the goes over to another RTP. When they scroll to the bottom looking for other moves they might use they only find a selection of bolded moves with no information on why you would use them. Now, if someone liked doing it this way more they would have done nothing wrong in writing it this way. But do you see why this might be a problem?

 

[Metadour-2]

I agree with/support chills statement.
I did like the way the pikachu RTP was done, but breaking the format is still breaking the format.

I also think it has nothing to do with the fact that he's a mod, plenty of people screwed up RTP formats before that weren't mods and they never got slammed for it. "fix this part" is what they got...

 

[Wii4Mii 99]

Say someone is looking at the Gyarados RTP, and sees a section he likes because it has what he was looking for and it's very detailed. Then, he sees a Salamence RTP (created by another person), which is what he was REALLY looking for. He goes there, and doesn't see the section or the detailedness of the Gyarados one.

Hmm... Maybe this problem could be solved by something very simple, and I'm just not seeing it at the moment.

Also, Chill gave us a chance to discuss the RTPs again by opening this thread. Let's not SPAM it this time, guys.

Until wii meet again,
Wii4Mii 99

 

[shadydentist]

I agree. RTPs should be uniform, and if you have a better idea for a format, it must be discussed.

 

[ss118]

I believe in an EV section.
For the RTP im working on, I have multiple EV spreads for the same pokemon. I would like an area to put the extra ones that might not be the "standard" EV spread, so put, but it can be used to benifit your team more.

 

[Coen]

"But you let Coen do this so why can't I do mine this way?" "I think it's better this way"?

Do you see where I'm going?

Yup, I do see where you're going. We really need to decide on a format. One that is clear to everyone. So clear, that they can not possible do anything other than follow the format, because they know exactly where to put every piece of information.

Btw, if you're really pissed about the Pikachu RTP right now, I can change it anytime, haha.

I did like the way the pikachu RTP was done, but breaking the format is still breaking the format.

Always good to know. I pwomise I won't do it again mister ;_; ^^

I also think it has nothing to do with the fact that he's a mod, plenty of people screwed up RTP formats before that weren't mods and they never got slammed for it. "fix this part" is what they got...

Yeah, it's not like I'm gonna warn people for not liking my RTP O_o

Hmm... Maybe this problem could be solved by something very simple, and I'm just not seeing it at the moment.

Of course! Clear formats that require every necessary piece of information ^^

And Chill, read the last PM I sent you (yesterday) titled 'Btw' ;o

 

[Metadour-2]

See people? Coen's a nice guy.
And let's NOT spam this time...
Alright, i think we all agree that a more precise format is needed, so we can stop saying that and work on it.

I think that EV set problem ss118 brought up is significant. I do think it is a problem and needs a viable solution.

As far as format goes, what about the current guidlines aren't specific enough?