Rosalina's 1.0.4 Patch Change Impressions

[Clemente]

It's not OK to be changing big, advertised features this early on, not at all. That's my main problem here. It's pre-mature.

From her trailer, and the 3DS Tips tell you about it. Bill Trinen also talked about it a lot in streams.

Also, I was referring to the Palutena's Guidance - After mistakenly thinking Rosalina directly controls the Lumas without their input, Palutena explains to Pit and Viridi that "Lumas will sacrifice everything to protect Rosalina", therefore confirming that the Lumas are acting of their own accord.

Soooo them "dancing frantically" while she is grabbed makes no sense at all, and contradicts Sakurai's own in universe explanation for something.

Enough talk about canon. Tell me how you really feel. Why do you feel so strongly about these nerfs? Do you realize that she will still be top tier/high tier?

I'll ask again: why are you insistent that the character stay overpowered?

I would be very surprised if this was the last tweak to Rosalina. Hopefully you handle it better next time.

 

[ChikoLad]

Enough talk about canon. Tell me how you really feel. Why do you feel so strongly about these nerfs? Do you realize that she will still be top tier/high tier?

I'll ask again: why are you insistent that the character stay overpowered?

I would be very surprised if this was the last tweak to Rosalina. Hopefully you handle it better next time.

Aaaand you just confirmed that you're trying to troll and are not actually paying any attention to what anyone is saying. I've said plenty of times why I don't like this change, and it's nothing to do with worry for the character.

 

[HeroMystic]

I'm sure we'll be seeing patches for a good year at the very least.

This is what I don't want. I don't particularly mind this patch because it comes with a new and updated game, therefore making the 3DS version seem more like a beta test. However, we barely know anything about this game as is. Characters are not developed, standards are not formed. Hell, our standard ruleset isn't even finalized yet. We absolutely need more time with the game before sweeping changes are made again.

It's not OK to be changing big, advertised features this early on, not at all.

I don't think the fact it was advertised should come to account. I do agree however, that it is premature.

 

[Clemente]

Aaaand you just confirmed that you're trying to troll and are not actually paying any attention to what anyone is saying. I've said plenty of times why I don't like this change, and it's nothing to do with worry for the character.

Yeah, and I disagree with your reasoning. I'm referring to your general raging and cursing up a storm about this issue. I don't get why you're so mad.

 

[ChikoLad]

Yeah, and I disagree with your reasoning. I'm referring to your general raging and cursing up a storm about this issue. I don't get why you're so mad.

What storm? I'm expressing my thoughts just like everyone else.

 

[.:~*Momo*~:.]

Not being able to hit mid grab is more than a little disappointing for me... but it's workable. I'm hoping these nerfs don't bring Rosalina too far down to the point of being not so great.

 

[Gea]

Yeah, and I disagree with your reasoning. I'm referring to your general raging and cursing up a storm about this issue. I don't get why you're so mad.

Pull back. You're being just as abrasive. This post is passive-aggressive as hell via hyperbolic statements. If you don't understand why a Rosalina player would be upset about a nerf (that may or may not be justified), then you came in here unprepared. The justification either way isn't exactly set in stone. Citing Sakurai or developers as an appeal to authority undermines the players' ability to think critically. Maybe this choice wasn't a wise choice.

Whether you are aware of this or not, initial character viability is often tumultuous. Most players at the very least see such changes as being "too much too soon" because there was no telling where Rosalina would stand in the grand scheme of things. While I agree that it's too late to do much about it except look ahead towards the future, why are you acting as if no one is allowed to hold an opposing viewpoint?

 

[IReidYou]

Arguing canon in fighters is never a good idea lol.

Regardless I never felt like she needed to be nerfed because it was always interesting fighting her, but can see the reasons behind the nerfing. She shut down a majority of throws from the cast because of luma. From a developing standpoint, it's a poor design to be forced to choose an option after opening someone up. Mario's only viable throw against her is back throw which means you can end up back throwing her onto the stage. I don't mind combo breakers but when you're the only one out of 48+ characters then it's pretty laughable. She could still mash in hitstun though so it's not like they completely neutered her.

She still has range, disjointed hitboxes, priority, a ridiculous recovery that can be angled, and can still combo break. They're just trying to make her less low-risk high-reward. Lowest I can see her being knocked down to is either top 10 or 15

 

[MrHomelessHobo]

Honestly Rosalina needed these nerfs, she had many strengths that needed to be toned down.

 

[Comorant]

This is what I don't want. I don't particularly mind this patch because it comes with a new and updated game, therefore making the 3DS version seem more like a beta test. However, we barely know anything about this game as is. Characters are not developed, standards are not formed. Hell, our standard ruleset isn't even finalized yet. We absolutely need more time with the game before sweeping changes are made again.



I don't think the fact it was advertised should come to account. I do agree however, that it is premature.

I'm certainly not disagreeing that we're getting balance tweaks far too early. Personally I feel it'd be better if they coincided with DLC releases and major events since there'd be a few months between them,

I do feel however that active involvement means that the community's voice is going to be much more important right now and we should take advantage of it if we wanna avoid being in a mess of getting bombarded with tweaks.

 

[ChikoLad]

Arguing canon in fighters is never a good idea lol.

It's not the center point of my argument, but the Palutena's Guidance for Rosalina is gonna sound really silly after the patch. More of an icing on the cake regarding why I am not OK with this.

 

[MrHomelessHobo]

It's not the center point of my argument, but the Palutena's Guidance for Rosalina is gonna sound really silly after the patch. More of an icing on the cake regarding why I am not OK with this.

That's not a really good argument "An optional thing in the game is going to sound silly.", but I understand where you are coming from and I understand your anger.

 

[IReidYou]

It's not the center point of my argument,

Ah well if you're arguing about what was advertised, well that's always bound to change especially in this digital age lol. A long time ago phoenix wright was announced in ultimate marvel vs capcom 3. The PR kept hyping up his invincible assist and even glorified it in the book with the frame data. A month later they took it completely out the game lol.

So moral of the story is things can change for better or for worse

 

[ChikoLad]

Ah well if you're arguing about what was advertised, well that's always bound to change especially in this digital age lol. A long time ago phoenix wright was announced in ultimate marvel vs capcom 3. The PR kept hyping up his invincible assist and even glorified it in the book with the frame data. A month later they took it completely out the game lol.

So moral of the story is things can change for better or for worse

That doesn't mean I approve of the practice though. Especially in this case, as it wasn't an overpowered mechanic.

And in general, I just think these big changes are too early. If people were touting Rosalina as "Smash 4's Meta Knight" in a year or so, I'd understand then. Not this early though.

Remember, this is only the start. If we just keep getting every complaint lesser players have rectified via nerfing character, the meta for this game will suck.

 

[HeroMystic]

Mario's only viable throw against her is back throw which means you can end up back throwing her onto the stage.

Mario can D-air Rosalina and send Luma and Rosie flying away from each other, then Rosie has to make a choice whether too call Luma back to her, which causes her to be juggle food to Mario, or temporarily go SoRo and try to get her bearings. At this point Mario's options open up, including throws. He can combat Rosie or focus on knocking away Luma. The match-up is extremely similar to Ice Climbers except Mario doesn't have to worry about 0-to-deaths.

 

[IReidYou]

And in general, I just think these big changes are too early.

I can agree that this was early, but you gotta remember smash's fanbase is huge so the cries could be heard sooner. That and the chances of them making some balance changes in time for wii u were extremely high. Hopefully balances changes don't happen to often after that though

Mario advice

Not really a mario main but all of that seems legit. He actually may be one of those characters who has an easier time going against her so thanks. My main point was luma's mere presence forces people to play differently due to its combo breaking ability, i.e. instead of opting for a grab you now have to dair to separate etc. This patch is just trying to bridge the gap because not too many characters have a short hop dair that can separate RosaLuma while auto canceling haha

 

[Warlock*G]

Most players at the very least see such changes as being "too much too soon" because there was no telling where Rosalina would stand in the grand scheme of things.

That's what I've been telling everyone here...

 

[Tino]

It's not really that surprising to me that Luma can no longer attack while Rosalina is being grabbed so I'll be alright regardless of that change. Though I'm really hoping they don't bring her down the same way they did to my main man Ike...but then again, why do I care.

 

[Blazin']

I don't understand how being shown in the reveal trailer should 'immortalize' the feature. It's clearly overpowered, and they're removing it.

You could argue that Mac's KO punch is overpowered. You'd get the same argument if that was removed. Or even Mac's super armor. Its just such a huge contradiction to what was advertised. Just seems dumb and unnecessary to me.

 

[MAGMIS]

As a samus player I luv that now I have an option to punish rosa and luma when sheilding so much because let me tell you it's very difficult to even hit rosa and Luma as samus. Especially when I rely on my grab for damage. (Grab follow ups)

She has too good defence options (bdown+luma+recovery) with amazing offense option/power. Also she still viable to fight even if Luma is out for 13 seconds.

She is broken with all those traits IMO, very difficult to win with slower character. It's worse than ice climber that's for sure.

 

[Blazin']

As a samus player I luv that now I have an option to punish rosa and luma when sheilding so much because let me tell you it's very difficult to even hit rosa and Luma as samus. Especially when I rely on my grab for damage. (Grab follow ups)

She has too good defence options (bdown+luma+recovery) with amazing offense option/power. Also she still viable to fight even if Luma is out for 13 seconds.

She is broken with all those traits IMO, very difficult to win with slower character. It's worse than ice climber that's for sure.

I see what you're getting at, and I completely understand where you're coming from, but I believe like some others have said, that it is too early to start nerfing characters. I can't really say that she's broken myself, every character has their strengths and weaknesses and heavy projectile users like Samus and Duck Hunt don't bode well against her even without Luma being there. But now the more I think about it, the more critically I'm looking at this. A solution could be to nerf her bdown. Luma is a lightweight and dies way too easily for it to be that much of a problem. However, Rosalina, just like Villager, can eat up a lot of projectiles. Her bdown could be changed so that she can't absorb things such as Samus' missiles. Maybe change it so that she can absorb energy projectiles and only a select few that aren't energy based. Its just a spur of the moment thought and this probably wouldn't work too well, but its just a thought.

 

[ChikoLad]

I see what you're getting at, and I completely understand where you're coming from, but I believe like some others have said, that it is too early to start nerfing characters. I can't really say that she's broken myself, every character has their strengths and weaknesses and heavy projectile users like Samus and Duck Hunt don't bode well against her even without Luma being there. But now the more I think about it, the more critically I'm looking at this. A solution could be to nerf her bdown. Luma is a lightweight and dies way too easily for it to be that much of a problem. However, Rosalina, just like Villager, can eat up a lot of projectiles. Her bdown could be changed so that she can't absorb things such as Samus' missiles. Maybe change it so that she can absorb energy projectiles and only a select few that aren't energy based. Its just a spur of the moment thought and this probably wouldn't work too well, but its just a thought.

Nerfing GP in relation to Samus is not necessary. Samus can actually rival Rosalina with her melee attacks quite well, especially since she is floaty, yet heavy, making the air game between these two quite intense. Samus also has a better fast fall, so she has a bit more maneuverability in the air. Especially with her Bombs.

She can also potentially mix up with her projectiles. Such as using her fully charged blaster up close.

 

[Steam]

I don't think these changes are premature just because of how badly rosalina currently outclasses people. The character simply has too much packed into her kit.

 

[MAGMIS]

Nerfing GP in relation to Samus is not necessary. Samus can actually rival Rosalina with her melee attacks quite well, especially since she is floaty, yet heavy, making the air game between these two quite intense. Samus also has a better fast fall, so she has a bit more maneuverability in the air. Especially with her Bombs.

She can also potentially mix up with her projectiles. Such as using her fully charged blaster up close.

Let me tell you, you haven't played against a good rosalina and luma OR you havent played samus. You can't do anything the way her defence option is.

Luma will block the charge shot or rosa will use bdown to absorb it. So I don't know why you even mention about samus projectile because her projectile is 100% useless against a good rosalina and luma.

Also you can't even grab her, because of luma and having 7 sec respawn will just make rosa decide to wait for luma. Making rosa shield all game without any care. Don't underestimate rosa melee combat either it's actually good and on par with samus combat. Confirmed.

It's pure defeat for good samus players, unless you have a video where two pros play as those characters and samus does well against her. I main and good with samus and have played against a good rosa. The only character I lost 100% always to is a good rosa as samus.


She has way way way too many pros then cons. I agree with steam that its just her Kit. But I'm just explaining or clarifying her strengths the way I experienced it.

Also a char should have a chance of winning against another character, hence the "balance" patch.

 

[Warlock*G]

She can also potentially mix up with her projectiles. Such as using her fully charged blaster up close.

It has to be up close, or else Rosie's down-B will absorb it.

So much for projectiles...

 

[Game And Guy]

The Best Case Scenario:
Rosalina herself is nerfed. Lesser hitting attacks, smaller hitboxes, neutered knockback, specials aren't spammable, etc.
THEN Luma herself can stay the way it is, maybe even better, with a longer respawn time though. Because 8 seconds is ridiculously short.

Now, this isn't happening is it?
Though I think it's silly that Luma is getting the nerfs, I do think Rosalina deserves nerfs in general. She isn't "broken" like people describe her, but she is very good, even too good for some of the cast. That's the thing. Balance patches aren't and shouldn't be just buffs to the weaker cast so they're at the level of the better characters, it should be buffs and nerfs alongside each other. Rosalina, ZSS, Greninja, and Yoshi ARE good. I don't think any of them are broken, but they're good, and they do need some nerfs alongside the weaker characters with buffs.

 

[ChikoLad]

The Best Case Scenario:
Rosalina herself is nerfed. Lesser hitting attacks, smaller hitboxes, neutered knockback, specials aren't spammable, etc.
THEN Luma herself can stay the way it is, maybe even better, with a longer respawn time though. Because 8 seconds is ridiculously short.

Now, this isn't happening is it?
Though I think it's silly that Luma is getting the nerfs, I do think Rosalina deserves nerfs in general. She isn't "broken" like people describe her, but she is very good, even too good for some of the cast. That's the thing. Balance patches aren't and shouldn't be just buffs to the weaker cast so they're at the level of the better characters, it should be buffs and nerfs alongside each other. Rosalina, ZSS, Greninja, and Yoshi ARE good. I don't think any of them are broken, but they're good, and they do need some nerfs alongside the weaker characters with buffs.

Those 4 are far from the only good characters in the game. I don't think being good means you should be nerfed.

There are characters who are fundamentally bad right now, and I feel they should be buffed before anything else, and then we see what happens.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I don't see why Gravitational Pull needs to be nerfed. It's literally useless against those who lack projectile attacks anyway.

 

[DarkKiru]

I think a great step towards helping some people before we go buffing anyone would be as simple as allowing customs in "With Anyone" modes. Notably since some people are helped GREATLY by their customs (E.g: Ganondorf's Wizard Dropkick)

A good majority of the weaker characters tend to have really good customs (Which I find somewhat funny, its like they knew these people would end up on the lower end of the tier list, so they gave them amazing customs).

If we had to go one of two directions from this point onward though, I'd rather buff weaker characters rather than nerf strong ones. As long as you arn't inherently broken, theres nothing wrong with being strong.

I don't see why Gravitational Pull needs to be nerfed. It's literally useless against those who lack projectile attacks anyway.

I don't see why either, its annoying to those who play with tons of projectiles (I play alot of Samus), but really its not that different from any other well timed reflector

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I don't see why either, its annoying to those who play with tons of projectiles (I play alot of Samus), but really its not that different from any other well timed reflector

Precisely. Some projectile games are harder to counter than others. For example, Robin's projectile attacks can strike faster than Rosalina can react, which can make using Gravitational Pull against such attacks quite tricky to pull off. However, Bowser Jr.'s projectiles take quite a while to execute, which gives Rosalina enough time to counter the cannonballs or Mecha-Koopas that come her way.

 

[Game And Guy]

Those 4 are far from the only good characters in the game. I don't think being good means you should be nerfed.

Yes and yes.
But the fact is, those four (plus Diddy - forgot about him) are both good AND easy to use (ZSS most especially, Rosalina to a less extent than the other four). Some good characters aren't like this. You have Little Mac and his air fighting skills (or lack there of) and Sheik and her inability to kill aside from the predictable Bouncing Fish. Being good isn't and shouldn't be the only factor. With Rosalina's case, she's a Puppet character that doesn't need a puppet. That's her worst problem.

There are characters who are fundamentally bad right now, and I feel they should be buffed before anything else, and then we see what happens.

I agree with buffing characters, but I do believe we the nerfs as much as we need the buffs.

I don't see why Gravitational Pull needs to be nerfed. It's literally useless against those who lack projectile attacks anyway.

...because it's not useless against those who don't lack projectile attacks? Actually, it's far from useless with projectile attacks. That's why it needs a nerf. It's spammable, and eats up everything. It's not like Villager's pocket that disable the Pocket if you already pocketed something, or G&W Oil Panic with its limited absorption and the work you need to even get it filled, or any of the counters in this game. It's one input and that's it.

All it needs though is a longer endlag, Just making it more punishable is fine. This connects to the whole Rosalina herself needs the nerfs, not Luma.

 

[Phenomiracle]

These changes will probably all that's ever done to Rosaluma. Sakurai's a stubborn fellow; he'd see any further patches to her character as an embarrassing admission of fault, something he definitely doesn't want to do. Rosaluma mains are just going to have to endure the OP hecklers; they won't be going away soon. I'm actually tempted to pick her up myself, just to spite my friends.

I do hope for the day when Sakurai gets over whatever disgustingly extreme salt he has with the Zelda franchise and starts seriously addressing Zelda's and Ganondorf's problems.

 

[TTTTTsd]

As far as characters who are fundamentally bad and need buffs, that's a point I can concede on. If Doc's runspeed was just a little better.....

On a side note, some of these changes are interesting. Hope the nerf bat doesn't swing any harder though....stay optimistic I guess!

 

[Locke 06]

Am I the only one who's confused why the luma respawn timer was increased by almost 150%? That seems like a big change, when a lesser nerf of 10 seconds might be more intuitive.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

...because it's not useless against those who don't lack projectile attacks? Actually, it's far from useless with projectile attacks. That's why it needs a nerf. It's spammable, and eats up everything. It's not like Villager's pocket that disable the Pocket if you already pocketed something, or G&W Oil Panic with its limited absorption and the work you need to even get it filled, or any of the counters in this game. It's one input and that's it.

All it needs though is a longer endlag, Just making it more punishable is fine. This connects to the whole Rosalina herself needs the nerfs, not Luma.

Gravitational Pull is still no different from Fox's Reflector, Mario's Cape, Pit's Guardian Orbitars, and Palutena's Reflect Barrier though. They too can render projectile games useless with those moves.

 

[DarkKiru]

These changes will probably all that's ever done to Rosaluma. Sakurai's a stubborn fellow; he'd see any further patches to her character as an embarrassing admission of fault, something he definitely doesn't want to do. Rosaluma mains are just going to have to endure the OP hecklers; they won't be going away soon. I'm actually tempted to pick her up myself, just to spite my friends.

I do hope for the day when Sakurai gets over whatever disgustingly extreme salt he has with the Zelda franchise and starts seriously addressing Zelda's and Ganondorf's problems.

To be perfectly fair, Ganondorf is one of those situations where his customs solve most of the problems he has in MU's (notably because Wizard's Dropkick is just so good; Flame Chain is pretty nifty as well, though im not sure if I prefer it over Flame Choke); he probably only needs minor adjustments. Customs really should be allowed online though.

Zelda on the other hand........ not so much, shes definitely the strongest shes ever been overall, but she could really use some help

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I fail to see why projectile spam should be encouraged. If Rosalina counters those people with Down B, so be it.

Personally I'm baffled she's being nerfed and Sheik/Mac/Greninja aren't being nerfed from what we know of. Like... really?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I fail to see why projectile spam should be encouraged. If Rosalina counters those people with Down B, so be it.

Personally I'm baffled she's being nerfed and Sheik/Mac/Greninja aren't being nerfed from what we know of. Like... really?

Yeah the only other nerf that's been confirmed is with Bowser, but it's only an issue if he and his adversary have the same amount of stock lives; Bowser will automatically lose if he commits suicide with Flying Slam, unless he has a one stock advantage over his grabbed adversary.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Yeah the only other nerf that's been confirmed is with Bowser, but it's only an issue if he and his adversary have the same amount of stock lives; Bowser will automatically lose if he commits suicide with Flying Slam, unless he has a one stock advantage over his grabbed adversary.

which in the grand scheme of things doesn't matter because offline tournaments makes the winner the initiator of the suicide move lel

i guess it matters on for glory though, but lol for glory

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

which in the grand scheme of things doesn't matter because offline tournaments makes the winner the initiator of the suicide move lel

i guess it matters on for glory though, but lol for glory

You know, I'm surprised that they aren't making the changes based on local tourney results. For Glory really doesn't do much justice for competitive play, heavily because of the lag that can be encountered there sometimes.