Data Rosalina Match-Up Analysis (Obsolete & Succeeded)

[~Frozen~]

Along with the things Parcheesy mentioned, it's probably worth noting that Yoshi's DA is superb at slaying Luma, and given Yoshi's survivability, he can usually take a punish from solo Rosalina (which isn't going to be that threatening to him)

If customs are on the table this MU gets a bit better with Speedy Star Bit allowing us to zone better vs Yoshi's Eggs, as well as Luma Warp's general utility (it being better than Luma Shot in the majority of scenarios you'd want to use it in)

Could be potentially even with customs (although that's very speculative as I haven't fought any Yoshis in a customs environment), but I think it's in Yoshi's favor without them. Not sure whether to give it 40-60 or 30-70, but I'm leaning towards 30-70. This is probably my most troubling matchup as Rosa thus far

 

[Parcheesy]

Whew...I was terrified that for whatever reason, I was the only one who found this a losing matchup. I would have looked pretty dumb opening with a 30-70 when everyone thinks it's in Rosa's favor. I really haven't played around much with customs, but this would probably be the one matchup where I can have a clear conscience using that falco laser side b.

( So...When talking MU numbers, we're assuming no customs, right? )

 

[mario123007]

Like Rosalina, Yoshi is on the higher tier of Smash Bros tier list. With a quick and efficient attack, a very tough Yoshi pro won't even give Rosalina a chance to fight back, with Yoghi's strong air attacks and DA, Rosalina will have a hard time facing Yoshi. (Did I mention that Yoshi tongue attack is so annoying?)

I give 30:70.

 

[Parcheesy]

Like Rosalina, Yoshi is on the higher tier of Smash Bros tier list. With a quick and efficient attack, a very tough Yoshi pro won't even give Rosalina a chance to fight back, with Yoghi's strong air attacks and DA, Rosalina will have a hard time facing Yoshi. (Did I mention that Yoshi tongue attack is so annoying?)

I give 35:65.

They should totally give Yoshi a zair in the next smash game. Would be hilarious getting a tongue to the face while trying to approach.

Oh, and I think we were sticking to just rating matchups by the nearest 10. I don't see how it really matters, considering they're being averaged at the end anyway. *shrug*

 

[mario123007]

They should totally give Yoshi a zair in the next smash game. Would be hilarious getting a tongue to the face while trying to approach.

Oh, and I think we were sticking to just rating matchups by the nearest 10. I don't see how it really matters, considering they're being averaged at the end anyway. *shrug*

Alright, I change it to 30:70.

 

[icraq]

For the time being I'm giving it a 30:70 too, unless someone figures something out. So many matchups Rosalina can just play exactly the same and with Yoshi it requires a different approach entirely.

I'll do a better write up here soon. Lost to a really good local Yoshi in tournament here recently, maybe I'll put up the videos.. I believe there's a way to overcome the MU, I just haven't figured it out yet, but I will.

 

[A_male_platypus]

Against Yoshi I'd say somewhere in the 40-60 to 30-70 range. I've really only played against FG Yoshi's, UGC KY and YelloRello's Yoshi. tho

Yoshi's faster than Rosalina and can kill earlier barring those freak Uair/Utilt's that kill really early. Watch out for the Yoshi Usmash that hits like Fox's from Brawl. (ouch!)

Yoshi's pretty hard to gimp imo, but very easy to get off stage. Because of their double-jump armor, a lot of them feel relatively safe jumping back onto stage without much care of what you plan to do to them off stage. This also means that be careful with your punishment if you're trying to punish him. So far, I've been using this as an opportunity to rack up free dmg. Usually by Dair'ing right through the Yoshi, or catching him at the end of the jump with a Fair.

Yoshi's UpB is incredibly good for spacing, racking up dmg, etc. But Rosalina is one of the few characters who doesn't have to fear the eggs too much. Her DownB collects them, and sometimes luma will take the hit. The biggest thing to watch out for is how much mobility he has while throwing the eggs. Don't get caught in the middle of a downB as Yoshi decides to egg-jump over to you. But often times you can bait them into something if they do.

WATCH OUT for Yoshi's spike. His Fair is deceptively large, quick, and painful. Because Yoshi's is so fast and has so much aerial mobility (and Rosalina is so floaty, and kinda slow in the air) BE CAREFUL when you recover. Don't overshoot the ledge if you're jumping for it, or you'll eat Dino-nose all the way to the blast zone.

Yoshi is also hard to follow up on out of grabs, so be wary of that. Dthrow to Fair will sometimes get a tiny red boot in your face.

Yoshi's jab is really good at messing up Luma, and poking your shield. He's got a really quick jab, don't try to contest with it.

But Utilt/Uair both out prioritize Yoshi's DownB so if you ever read one of those you can get a free hit/juggle. But again, watch out for the jump-armor so as to not get punished yourself.

Fair is pretty good for catching Yoshi's who are zoning and jumping too much. Just watch out for armor.

Fsmash tilted up can sometimes catch them jumping back onto stage too if you time it right.

Ftilt, Dtilt and proper spacing are your bff's in this fight. Don't forget about your Luma!

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Yoshi's tough for Rosalina to deal with. Eggs arc over Luma completely, forcing you to shield or GPull them and GPull can be punished if you're too close. Egg Lay pierces shields, dair can be shielded but wrecks Luma, and he's nearly impossible to gimp properly thanks to that double jump. Fair and uair are no joke either and must be respected.

On the bright side, I believe Yoshi is vulnerable to juggles. I don't think he has any real answer to a properly spaced utilt or uair, although a Yoshi Bomb next to you on the ground will tag you with the stars.

But he's just so damn fast it's kind of weird after several games in a row of Yoshi being very meh. (Amsa notwithstanding.)

I'll concur with 30:70 in Yoshi's favor, a moderate disadvantage. Not unwinnable but an uphill battle.

I'd be curious to see how Guardian Luma fares in this matchup, depending on how important it is to absorb eggs.

 

[Parcheesy]

Oh, a little thing I've started doing that really helps the matchup is shield grabbing, then grab releasing a Yoshi who tries to recover above the ledge with eggs. He doesn't regain his double jump, and it will drop him below the ledge. I'm fairly sure it's nothing guaranteed, but unless the Yoshi Up+B's immediately after being released, he'll fall sadly to his death. It's definitely a funny way to earn a stock, and it works more often than not.

Edit: Oh, and I'm 90% sure Luma taking an egg results in Rosalina getting hit as well ( assuming they're paired ). The things seem to have a small explosion radius.

Playing a decent Yoshi online at the moment, and it really helps quite a bit to abuse Up air as much as possible. While his down air does quite a bit of damage, it's lacking in range, making him a decent juggle target. It also kills him off the top when he attempts to recover high ( generally his best option if you're putting on a little pressure offstage ). It really doesn't change my opinion much on the matchup, as it's still in his favor, but having a goto kill option is pretty nice.

 

[Zonderion]

Oh, a little thing I've started doing that really helps the matchup is shield grabbing a Yoshi who tries to recover above the ledge with eggs. He doesn't regain his double jump, and it will drop him below the ledge. I'm fairly sure it's nothing guaranteed, but unless the Yoshi Up+B's immediately after being released, he'll fall sadly to his death. It's definitely a funny way to earn a stock, and it works more often than not.

Can you clarify a little more? Shield grabbing Yoshi after he uses his second jump, doesn't reset it? Also, when you say release, are you talking about just a grab release, or after throwing Yoshi a certain direction?

 

[~Frozen~]

If an opponent isn't considered grounded when being grabbed (depends on both characters, I believe. Might also depend on if the opponent is being held over the ledge, but I'm not sure on that one), then they won't be given a jump back upon grab release. It also effected certain non-helpless UpB's in Brawl.

I wonder if it also doesn't reset the UpB momentum decay Yoshi has? That's something I'd like to know.

 

[ChikoLad]

I don't have trouble even against good Yoshi players (and I am someone who uses him as a secondary myself). I'm not really sure what it is. Maybe my playstyle against him is fundamentally different to everyone else's. But I have never understood the problems others have against him as Rosalina.

I think it can go either way, really, so I will say 50:50.

 

[Zonderion]

ok so, grabbing an opponent thats mid-air is considered ungrounded? How did I not know this?

If they've used their second jump, does any throw reset their jump, or only ones that the character becomes "grounded"?

 

[~Frozen~]

Using a throw will give them back their jump, only a grab release has the ability to leave them without it.

 

[Parcheesy]

I'm not sure if the throw would reset their jump, but I find the most favorable position to put then in after a grab stems from a grab release over the ledge. They only have a split second to react with an up b, and if they are mashing out, any other input causes a sure death. Not something to go for every time, but it is an amazing option when the opportunity presents itself.

Oh, and playing a significant amount of a character will make that matchup extraordinarily easier. I know my charizard has little to no problems with most Rosalinas simply because I know what I'd find most annoying if I was playing the other side of the coin.

Edit:
You will generally know they won't have a jump if the grab animation shows them hovering over the ledge, and you didn't drag them over to it with a dash grab.

 

[mario123007]

I don't have trouble even against good Yoshi players (and I am someone who uses him as a secondary myself). I'm not really sure what it is. Maybe my playstyle against him is fundamentally different to everyone else's. But I have never understood the problems others have against him as Rosalina.

I think it can go either way, really, so I will say 50:50.

Probably you haven't seen the true Yoshi pros yet. Or maybe you are really good with Rosalina? Dealing with Yoshi can actually really be challenge.

 

[R e d X]

Have to agree that in my experience, 30:70 is a bit much. He's not the easiest MU, but I haven't experienced a lot of the issues people are discussing here, or at least not to the same magnitude to justify the ratio being so poor. I haven't really felt it to be any worse than 50:50, I would be hesitant to even give it 40:60. I feel like it can reasonably go either way. But maybe that's just me lol

 

[~Frozen~]

The ratios do seem a bit misleading but with the way they're set up in this thread, a 45-55 seems to be 40-60 here while a 40-60 would mean a 30-70 in this thread. That's how I'm interpreting it as anyway.

(I kinda wish we could just use +1, +2, -1, -2, 0 etc to determine MU's but I'm not the one calling the shots here)

 

[Parcheesy]

With the way people are averaging, it's probably going to end up as 40-60 anyway. At the end of the day, these numbers don't really mean anything passed what we're using them for. If the average Rosalina player struggles with Yoshi, it should be made clear here so we can more thoroughly discuss what Rosalina needs to do in order to win the matchup.

In my experience, a tough Yoshi will often knock Luma into hitstun with something that almost always beats it ( such as nair ), and then proceed to stick so close to Rosalina that he can throw out a hitbox before any of her forward facing options even have a chance to materialize. Being smothered is something Rosalina falls to, as her lack of a 'sex kick' nair makes its presence painfully known.

 

[Z-Bone]

Yoshi main here. If you want my two cents, I'd say it's a 40:60 in Yoshi's favor. I plaster Ros and Luma with eggs every chance I get. What doesn't rack up damage on Ros at least racks up damage on Luma. Rosalina is tall and floaty, so she's easy to hit with eggs and aerials, but the extended hit boxes on her attacks are pretty annoying. Her up air and down air can really mess up my game if used defensively. Your best bet is to KO Yoshi off the top of the stage, because his recover is deceptively good. For gimps you definitely want to hit him after he double jumps (not during).

Go Yoshi!

 

[Dabuz]

I'm really surprised you guys think Mario is in our favor, if anything it feels even. I also think Rosa BEATS Yoshi pretty solidly. Our upair can catch yoshi's jumping around really easily, same with Bair. Nair DESTROYS eggs and is safe on yoshi's shield of spaced properly. In general we can dash attack yoshi if we except an egg throw, can upsmash him if close, and even punish the cooldown of egg throw with DA or grabs. Luma starbits can be used to pressure Yoshi really well, fsmash is hard for him to get by. Our dair makes it hard for Yoshi to land upairs and it's not hard to spike him after his DJ super armor with Dair, + if he up-Bs off stage, no super armor during up-B so it's easy to hit him. His dash attack is super punishable on block and can be challenged by our buttons, nair pressure doesn't work well on rosa, same with fair and neutral b pressure. I honestly think Rosa wins with MU 60-40 because all Yoshi really has are eggs, and eggs are super predictable to work around and easy enough to punish.

 

[icraq]

I'm really surprised you guys think Mario is in our favor, if anything it feels even. I also think Rosa BEATS Yoshi pretty solidly. Our upair can catch yoshi's jumping around really easily, same with Bair. Nair DESTROYS eggs and is safe on yoshi's shield of spaced properly. In general we can dash attack yoshi if we except an egg throw, can upsmash him if close, and even punish the cooldown of egg throw with DA or grabs. Luma starbits can be used to pressure Yoshi really well, fsmash is hard for him to get by. Our dair makes it hard for Yoshi to land upairs and it's not hard to spike him after his DJ super armor with Dair, + if he up-Bs off stage, no super armor during up-B so it's easy to hit him. His dash attack is super punishable on block and can be challenged by our buttons, nair pressure doesn't work well on rosa, same with fair and neutral b pressure. I honestly think Rosa wins with MU 60-40 because all Yoshi really has are eggs, and eggs are super predictable to work around and easy enough to punish.

those eggs though, christ. that's my main issue, just getting in there. i cant help but get whacked by the eggs, and i still have no idea how to edgeguard him. i have such a hard time using nair to break the eggs, but maybe i just need the practice.
i'd love it if you could share some videos showcasing your rosa vs a decent yosh, or perhaps another rosa you can recommend. the only one of yours im seeing on youtube is from the nintendo open and it's on japes, which is a pretty unique stage layout.

http://www.twitch.tv/breadnbuttergames/c/5690352 here's a video of grand finals from a recent tournament, his yosh vs my rosa. this is the 3rd time this guy has beaten me in tournament, he's really good though, so it might just be his mastery of the game is superior to mine and less of an issue of matchups.

 

[R e d X]

I never really found the eggs to be too much of an issue honestly, idk why. I need to work on nair use for sure, and I kinda suck at dair-ing people out of quick uairs, but otherwise I think dabuz is on the money with the yoshi MU. Feels evenish but I could buy into slight advantage.

Edit: Didn`t even see the other ratios in the OP lol. Dunno much about DK other than that we win, probably solidly, I can get behind 60-something:30-something advantage. But Mario isn`t that positive for us I dont think, inexperienced Marios are really easy but good ones are actually really tough I find. I feel it`s much closer to even, 55:45 - 5:5 kinda thing

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Oddly, I've often had a tough time countering the eggs, simply because I just don't spot them coming soon enough.

@ A_male_platypus : I know that the Yoshi week only started, but before the week is over, you might want to choose either 40:60 or 30:70, as the way that you've set up your match-up ratio may lead to complications when I start averaging the match-up ratios that everyone has posted.

 

[~Frozen~]

So I'm looking back on this matchup and am starting to believe my lack of extensive Yoshi experience may have put a bit of bias into my evaluation. After reading some other posts in this thread I'm going to change my vote to 40-60 rather than 30-70. While I still think she struggles a little, I feel 30-70 may be underselling Rosa's strengths.

 

[mario123007]

Here is video of Rosalina vs Yoshi, Yoshi wasn't that good in this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfVkBOBYZ70
Oh, here is the one that you should really look at. Yoshi is so wicked in this battle.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOZSSCJwIOo

 

[Z-Bone]

The first video...ugh. That Yoshi practically had a hat trick of SDs. That stage is awful for Yoshi as well. The second video is what you should expect from a well seasoned Yoshi. He used his eggs to set up Uairs very well, good use of Nair, and I especially liked the air dodge to Uair.

Some of you are selling Yoshi's eggs short. I think they are the most versatile projectile in the game, only challenged by Duck Hunt's can.

Also, Yoshi's DA is not "super punishable" so long as it's spaced properly and used at the right time. In fact, it's one of the best DAs in the game. It was slightly nerfed, but it's still awesome.

 

[mario123007]

The first video...ugh. That Yoshi practically had a hat trick of SDs. That stage is awful for Yoshi as well. The second video is what you should expect from a well seasoned Yoshi. He used his eggs to set up Uairs very well, good use of Nair, and I especially liked the air dodge to Uair.

Some of you are selling Yoshi's eggs short. I think they are the most versatile projectile in the game, only challenged by Duck Hunt's can.

Also, Yoshi's DA is not "super punishable" so long as it's spaced properly and used at the right time. In fact, it's one of the best DAs in the game. It was slightly nerfed, but it's still awesome.

Like Rosalina, Yoshi is floaty in air, but much faster than Rosalina. Just look how good is Yoshi at air, even though Yoshi in the first video missed a lot. A pro can easily juggle her around in air.

 

[Iron Kraken]

I said in a previous thread asking about Rosalina's worst match ups that there is nothing harder for Rosalina than playing a really good Yoshi player.

@ icraq , I watched several of your matches from that tournament, including against the Yoshi player. My play style as Rosalina is really similar to yours, and I have the same issues against Yoshi that you do (although as you say, Robotnik is a very good player).

Like you said, I think a major issue with Yoshi is that the match up requires a radical change in approach for Rosalina compared to just about all of her other match ups.

Yoshi's eggs make Rosalina's Nair an option that should be used selectively, rather than as a spammable approach option. Yoshi's eggs also prevent Rosalina from camping and forcing approaches.

So... Rosalina is forced to approach, and usually forced to approach without Nair.

Still, all those games you played against Robotnik were pretty close.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

@ Iron Kraken : Is it true that Yoshi's eggs are immune to Gravitational Pull? If that's the case, than I can probably see how that could force Rosalina to be the one who approaches.

 

[Z-Bone]

Eggs are not immune to gravitational pull, but use it at your own risk. That move usually opens a window for Yoshi to mount some offense.

 

[Iron Kraken]

Eggs are not immune to gravitational pull, but use it at your own risk. That move usually opens a window for Yoshi to mount some offense.

This. You can't use gravitational pull when Yoshi is close to you. The move has lag and Yoshi has more than enough speed to punish you for that if you use it from anywhere other than a safe (far) distance.

Gravitational Pull is very useful against other characters who want to space out their projectiles more (and especially nice when you can use their projectile against them), like Mega Man and ROB, but the move has very little use against a good Yoshi player.

---

Another thing about Yoshi that Rosalina doesn't appreciate is how difficult he is to gimp. Gimping is one of Rosalina's greatest strengths, and she has a favorable match up against any character with a recovery which she can exploit. But Yoshi is in the class of characters which are extremely difficult to gimp, due to the super armor on his 2nd jump, the protection of his eggs, and his overall aerial mobility. Combine this with the fact that Yoshi is a very heavy character, and it means that typically you'll be KOing Yoshi at a much later % than Rosalina is used to.

Other than that, the thing that makes it tough are just the fact that Yoshi is a really good character in general. Just like Rosalina is a really good character in general. But of all the top tier characters I think Yoshi has the best match up against Rosalina.

For now I'll call it 35:65 in Yoshi's favor.... and I won't be giving Rosalina that big of a deficit against any other character.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

If it's really going to be a problem if we're only inputting divisible by 10 match-up ratios, I guess I could always allow the usage of match-up ratios that are divisible by 5. I'll just have to update the rules.

Update: You are now allowed to post match-up ratios that are divisible by 5.

 

[Parcheesy]

If it's really going to be a problem if we're only inputting divisible by 10 match-up ratios, I guess I could always allow the usage of match-up ratios that are divisible by 5. I'll just have to update the rules.

Update: You are now allowed to post match-up ratios that are divisible by 5.

Thanks! It should help us get an average closer to something we can all agree on. I'm still sticking with 30-70 though, still her worst matchup IMO.

 

[mario123007]

Thanks! It should help us get an average closer to something we can all agree on. I'm still sticking with 30-70 though, still her worst matchup IMO.

I think that any fast attacking/speedy character has advantage over Rosalina in some sort. After seeing so many videos, and even try it out by myself. Rosalina will easily get spammed by these characters.

 

[R e d X]

The divisible by 5 rule seems like a good change I think. Still going to stick with 50-50 for my vote in the ratio though.

 

[Iron Kraken]

I think that any fast attacking/speedy character has advantage over Rosalina in some sort. After seeing so many videos, and even try it out by myself. Rosalina will easily get spammed by these characters.

I think it's a great exaggeration to say that any fast attacking / speedy character has an overall match up advantage against Rosalina. It's true that those are desirable traits to have in a match up against Rosalina, but to say that any character with those assets wins the overall match up against Rosalina is doing a disservice to how good of a character Rosalina is, regardless of the match up.

I think Rosalina used to be overrated by a lot of people, but now she seems underrated. Rosalina can totally beat speedy characters if you use her right.

One reason I think general opinion of Rosalina has continued to decline is because there aren't many pros who are using her. I attribute the lack of pros using her to the fact that many people don't like her defensively oriented / spacing play style. But then again, Yoshi doesn't get a lot of pro use either.

But Rosalina isn't the only top character who I see underrepresented in pro play. Overall I see Rosalina, Yoshi, and Lucario as the 3 top tier characters who are being underutilized by Smash pros. Yet whenever pros play against these character I usually see them talk about how good these 3 characters are and how annoying it is to play against them. I guess they're just not favored because of the perceived characteristics that make them "cheap." It's pretty funny actually.

 

[ChikoLad]

To be quite honest, there is no specific traits I think Rosalina has a hard time with, for the most part. Which is why I don't think she has any bad match-ups.

Truthfully, nearly every character on the roster can deal with her if the player is good enough (some characters are just perpetually bad against her though, like Olimar). But the same goes for the Rosalina player. However, in my opinion, I feel Rosalina has a blatant advantage in most match-ups, even if it's only slight. It's because she has so much utility though. There aren't many characters who have as many tricks and variety in their playstyle as Rosalina does.

I mean, not even Diddy matches her in that regard. Although he is overall a bit better than Rosalina, it's not because he has a lot of tricks, he just has a few very easy and efficient ones and a solid moveset to go with it, which gives him some easy enough wins against much of the cast. Ironically though, I think Rosalina wins when she is the one against Diddy.

Though, this is just how things are right now. What with things like Perfect Pivoting being discovered, we might see some shifts in the meta game. And these things may benefit or be bad for Rosalina. We have yet to see.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I wouldn't go so far as to say Rosalina has literally no bad matchups. Her power is greatly centered in Luma (but not entirely, I know that), therefore characters that have the tools necessary to easily deal with Luma (either hitting it offstage, whittling it down with minimal risk, or just avoiding it) can more easily keep Rosalina off balance and struggling to make up the deficit.

I don't pretend to be knowledgeable enough to say which characters fall under that category, but I'm more confident they exist than not.

 

[ChikoLad]

I wouldn't go so far as to say Rosalina has literally no bad matchups. Her power is greatly centered in Luma (but not entirely, I know that), therefore characters that have the tools necessary to easily deal with Luma (either hitting it offstage, whittling it down with minimal risk, or just avoiding it) can more easily keep Rosalina off balance and struggling to make up the deficit.

I don't pretend to be knowledgeable enough to say which characters fall under that category, but I'm more confident they exist than not.

That assumes that the difference in abilities between SoRo and some other character is automatically terrible because Luna is gone. But that is never the case. You can do just fine in those 13 seconds Luna is gone. If Luma going away for 13 seconds is enough for you to lose the match, that's not Rosalina's fault, but her player's fault for playing poorly or being underpracticed in SoRo.

I think Rosalina has even match ups (like Toon Link, but that's for another time). But not any bad ones.