Data Robin Patch Notes 1.1.1 (WIP)

[Zareidriel]

I mean, this is huge and all, but it's also a change of around a tenth of a second or less. You won't have to change your habits or playstyle very drastically whatsoever. If you're thinking "I gotta do a lot more Levin Aerials on shields now!" you have the wrong idea.

 

[Raziek]

I disagree completely. Aerials that you didn't AC, sure, those won't change much.

But rising Fair and AC Bair are both very close to safe, if not ACTUALLY safe on shield now, and that's a huge deal.

Ex: Marth can no longer punish a blocked Fair with his own Fair OoS, which is his best option there.

 

[Zareidriel]

Sure, that's the part that's HUGE and all. Especially for us as Robin players with our lovely disjointed aerials. I just keep seeing comments that make me think people (not just Robin players) are expecting this to fundamentally change the structure of their gameplay, force them to learn perfect pivoting(?), makes their other options somehow worse, or that shields have become unusable.

 

[PK Gaming]

Are Levin aerials really that safe on shield now? They were hella unsafe on shield before and I kinda doubt that this shieldstun increase is really going to make them actually safe.

Arcthunder I can see being really good with this though (like lol are they just gonna keep buffing Arcthunder or something? it keeps getting better and better. are they gonna make it kill at 100% by itself with no rage next or something?)

Go out and test them for yourself before coming to a conclusion

 

[_Shinta_]

I disagree completely. Aerials that you didn't AC, sure, those won't change much.

But rising Fair and AC Bair are both very close to safe, if not ACTUALLY safe on shield now, and that's a huge deal.

What does AC mean? AC Bair?

 

[Nah]

What does AC mean? AC Bair?

AC stand for "auto-cancel". AC Bair would be an auto-canceled Bair. Basically if you land at the right time during an aerial you'll incur significantly less landing lag, which helps you avoid getting punished for using the aerial as well as being able to do follow-ups quicker.

PK Gaming I don't really know of a good way to test the safety of our aerials nor do I know how to calculate safety/frame advantage on shield

 

[Meneil]

Are Levin aerials really that safe on shield now? They were hella unsafe on shield before and I kinda doubt that this shieldstun increase is really going to make them actually safe.

Arcthunder I can see being really good with this though (like lol are they just gonna keep buffing Arcthunder or something? it keeps getting better and better. are they gonna make it kill at 100% by itself with no rage next or something?)

Just want to point out that in the previous patch before 1.1.1, it was confirmed that the hitstun modifier on shields had been changed. While this affected all moves on shield, it scaled quickly and was noticeably larger for moves like Robin's Levin sword, many of Ryu's attacks, and so on.

Now combine this with the shield stun that was increased on this patch, and I'd say it has to be a noticeable difference. A retreating Fair was already difficult for opponents without a hard read. Things are going to still need spacing, but even a few frames in Robin's cases could make a big difference.

Alllll that being said, I actually don't have the Wii U atm so can't actually test. Just looking at the frame data is giving me ideas of what options are safer when though.

Edit: Also wanted to mention that when acting out of shields <provided the shield was hit>, certain moves cut out the shield lag. Actually all moves do, except two very noticeable ones - jab, and grab (unless jump canceled). If the stun is enough to affect our Jab OoS option, theoretically Dtilt would be a better choice (guessing it'll be close to a 4-6 frame difference)

 

[Linkshot]

from what I've heard, last patch's shield hitlag changes were reverted in favour of this shieldstun change.

 

[Nah]

So....I think I figured out how to calculate basic frame advantage for hitting stuff on shields and did that on our aerials. The shield stun formula for 1.1.1 is (damage/1.75)+2, rounded down (the previous formula was (damage/2.56) rounded down)), and I'm using the Kurogane frame data page for landing lag values.

Levin Fair: -11 (-4 if not using an OoS option)

Spoiler

(12.5/1.75)+2=9.14--->9 frames of shield stun

9 frames of shield stun-20 frames of landing lag= -11

Levin Bair: -11 (-4 if not using an OoS option)

Spoiler

(15/1.75)+2=10.57--->10 frames of shield stun

10 frames of shield stun-21 frames of landing lag= -11

Levin Uair: -11 (-4 if not using an OoS option)

Spoiler

(13/1.75)+2=9.42--->9 frames of shield stun

9 frames of shield stun-20 frames of landing lag= -11

Levin Dair: -21 (-14 if not using an OoS option)

Spoiler

(10/1.75)+2=7.7--->7 frames of shield stun

7 frames of shield stun-28 frames of landing lag= -21

Nair: -14 (-7 if not using an OoS option)

Spoiler

(7/1.75)+2=6 frames of shield stun

6 frames of shield stun-20 frames of landing lag= -14

As a side note, it was -18 pre-1.1.1

I think I did it right but someone please check to make sure. Also note that this isn't for auto-canceled aerials. I don't know how much less landing lag we get when our aerials are auto-canceled. Whether or not this means Robin's aerials are safe on shield or not I don't know since I don't know how some other **** like how much spacing affects it, or if them being electrical moves changes anything, and something about hitting the shield at a certain point after the powershield window, etc.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

I'm thinking that the changes to shieldstun might actually hurt Robin in the long run. Our best kill setup is dthrow to uair, but we're stuck with one of the worst grabs in the game. The best reliable way to land a grab prepatch without getting a read was shieldgrabbing. That is now a hell of a lot harder to do.

 

[PK Gaming]

Robin usually gets her grabs via dash grab punish or dash grab on shield bait. Dash grab out of shield was rarer, and jab was the better counterplay imo

 

[Avokha]

I'm thinking that the changes to shieldstun might actually hurt Robin in the long run. Our best kill setup is dthrow to uair, but we're stuck with one of the worst grabs in the game. The best reliable way to land a grab prepatch without getting a read was shieldgrabbing. That is now a hell of a lot harder to do.

I'm going to respectfully disagree, landing grabs, at least in my experience, is actually pretty simple without shieldgrabbing, via arcthunder/arcfire (only sometimes with arcfire) or a simple punish. The aforementioned kill setup 'Checkmate' (So satisfying to land ) is indeed quite useful, but it shouldn't be considered the end-all be-all method to nab KO's. If the ideal Checkmate percentage is passed, I typically look for Levin aerial, equipment, and Thoron openings for kills, as well as backthrows if all else fails.

 

[Raziek]

You're basically never getting a checkmate out of a shieldgrab lol.

The patch should largely help us.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

You're basically never getting a checkmate out of a shieldgrab lol.

That makes no sense.

 

[Nah]

It's more of a mixed bag imo. It helps out our offense by keeping people in shield stun slightly longer from our projectiles (particularly Arcthunder, that's more difficult to escape if shielded) which is good, and by making AC aerials much safer. But defensively it hurts us because our OoS options are bad, and the increased shield stun worsens her issues with close quarters pressure.

 

[Glory Blaze]

That makes no sense.

Robin's grab range is so short that many attacks have enough shield pushback to prevent shield grab from being a reliable punish, ESPECIALLY if they're spaced right and SUPER ESPECIALLY when the opponent starts to amass a little rage (aka when they're in Checkmate kill percent). The only way you're checkmating off a shield grab is if they do something horrendously unsafe, in which case you might as well just Fsmash or Dsmash.

I personally get like 99% of my checkmates by locking down a shield with Arcthunder, which sounds like it's even easier to do in this patch.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

From what I've heard, projectiles are actually WORSE on shield than before. I don't know if that applies to multihit projectiles like Arcthunder, though.

 

[The_Cardinal]

From what I've heard, projectiles are actually WORSE on shield than before. I don't know if that applies to multihit projectiles like Arcthunder, though.

Multihit projectiles seem to benefit a lot from the increased shieldstun, hence why some of us feel Robin benefits a lot from the new change.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Multihit projectiles seem to benefit a lot from the increased shieldstun, hence why some of us feel Robin benefits a lot from the new change.

Ah, well that's good news, then.

 

[Linkshot]

Ah, well that's good news, then.

Bad news bears, actually
http://smashboards.com/threads/shields-in-1-1-1.419235/page-3#post-20252546

too far; didn't read: projectiles (anything reflectable? articles??? who knows) might have reduced shieldstun

 

[Mr. Johan]

Robin essentially got more safety out of Levin Fair and Bair and Fire Jab at the cost of a lesser advantage state from shielded projectiles.

imho, a slight net positive. Slight.

 

[PK Gaming]

Robin essentially got more safety out of Levin Fair and Bair and Fire Jab at the cost of a lesser advantage state from shielded projectiles.

imho, a slight net positive. Slight.

I think it's more than slight. Safety on SH rising Fair/Bair's is huge, the more reliable arcthunder is slick, and the ease of shield poking with wind jab at close range is really helpful. Robin didn't really lock down opponents with projectiles anyway (SH Elthunder should still get the job done)

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Arcthunder is kind of predictable, though. Unless your opponent is in the air or you are literally right next to them, they should have no problem shielding on reaction, and Robin is so slow that you won't be able to get close enough to grab them unless, again, you are literally right next to them.

 

[PK Gaming]

Arcthunder is kind of predictable, though. Unless your opponent is in the air or you are literally right next to them, they should have no problem shielding on reaction, and Robin is so slow that you won't be able to get close enough to grab them unless, again, you are literally right next to them.

Predictable or not, it's Arcthunder. It's unequivocally Robin's best pressuring tool.

 

[Glory Blaze]

Arcthunder is kind of predictable, though. Unless your opponent is in the air or you are literally right next to them, they should have no problem shielding on reaction, and Robin is so slow that you won't be able to get close enough to grab them unless, again, you are literally right next to them.

If they shield it at a distance slightly out of grab range, jump -> Zareidriel's Secret Technique #13NDWN: The Fall of Darkness: Dawn: Descending Nosferatu will usually catch them

 

[Raziek]

If they shield it at a distance slightly out of grab range, jump -> Zareidriel's Secret Technique #13NDWN: The Fall of Darkness: Dawn: Descending Nosferatu will usually catch them

Please tell me you didn't actually just call it that. >_>

 

[Glory Blaze]

Well he went to the trouble of naming it, we may as well give him the respect and use the name he made xD

 

[Raziek]

It's falling Nos. It doesn't need to be complicated for no reason.

 

[Zareidriel]

If they shield it at a distance slightly out of grab range, jump -> Zareidriel's Secret Technique #13NDWN: The Fall of Darkness: Dawn: Descending Nosferatu will usually catch them

Amazing, I can't believe you really said the whole thing. XD Good show!

 

[_Shinta_]

Zareidriel I haven't been on your guide in some time, but is there an equally awesome name for the following:

Run to opponent --> Jump + Airdodge --> B Reverse Nosferatu

If not, name it

 

[Linkshot]

Zareidriel I haven't been on your guide in some time, but is there an equally awesome name for the following:

Run to opponent --> Jump + Airdodge --> B Reverse Nosferatu

If not, name it

Vanishing Vampire: The King of Swing

Anyway now we know why people weren't getting their shields locked down by Arcthunder/Elfire.

 

[Zareidriel]

For anyone who didn't see the projectile shieldstun chart:

Well that's somewhat disappointing. I wonder if projectiles used to use the old formula (%/2.56) ? Honestly, because there is a static +2 now, and Arcfire and Arcthunder trap ticks deal 1% damage, this should still be a buff of at least 1 frame of stun.

Well regardless, at least we have the safer Levin aerials thing.

 

[Glory Blaze]

Amazing, I can't believe you really said the whole thing. XD Good show!

Haha, your guide is a large part of the reason I even play Robin at this point. I was originally a Bowser "main" if you could even call it that, since I didn't play competitively until around Christmas of last year. One of my friends played Male Robin so I picked up Female Robin to prove her superiority (and because I played as her in FE:A). When my crew decided to learn to play the game competitively I couldn't find any good bowser guides but your Robin guide, with the colors, good usage of humor, and the amazingly named Secret Techniques really drew me in. At this point, my "main" is Pink Robin and my secondary is Blonde Robin, but I have a pocket Default Female Robin for when the matchup calls for it.

 

[PK Gaming]

Vanishing Vampire: The King of Swing

Anyway now we know why people weren't getting their shields locked down by Arcthunder/Elfire.

Wait, you mean Arcthunder isn't better on shield now?

 

[CommanderRin]

Please tell me you didn't actually just call it that. >_>

Limitless Hubris ; Improbable Annihilation
Soul Penetrator ; Heaven Piercer
Zarei Drill

 

[Zareidriel]

That's the first and last time anyone's ever gonna say that XD Except me, I say it every time I use a downsmash. Actually I got my first Zarei Drill in like 6 months just a couple of days ago. I think with just a little charging of the downsmash it's more likely to work. The shieldstun buff might have helped out its possibility of working? That would be sweet it we could actually set up a reliable shield break setup. Which I've been trying to find for a long time.

But one thing's for sure, Vanishing Vampire: The King of Swing has been growing on me all day. Both as a catchy name and as a possibly viable combat "technique"

 

[Nah]

the hell is Zarei Drill

Wait, you mean Arcthunder isn't better on shield now?

It technically is better on shield now, it's just that how much better it is is almost insignificant. Each hit of Arcthunder gets only one more frame of shield stun now than it used to.

Spoiler

-Under old shield stun formula:
(3%/2.56)=1.17 rounded down=1 frame of shield stun

-Under the new projectile shield stun formula: (3%/3.5)+2=2.85 rounded down=2 frames of shield stun

-Under the new non-projectile shield stun formula: (3%/1.75)+2=3.71 rounded down=3 frames of shield stun

 

[Mr. Johan]

The way shieldstun works, if we want to have Arcthunder lock shields down better, we would also have to accept every other projectile getting a toooon of shieldstun.

I'll gladly take what we have now, instead of Megaman, Duck Hunt, and Sheik ruling the field with little regard.

 

[Zareidriel]

Not necessarily, if we had a larger static additive, i.e, +4 instead of +2, it could make Arcthunder and Arcfire (multi-hit projectiles) inescapable from shield while adding only 2 more frames, from 4 to 6, etc, on higher-damage ones like Duck Hunt's, Mario/Luigi fireballs, etc. I'd exchange 1/30 of a second more shieldstun from my enemies' projectiles in order to make our own fully inescapable. Nosferatu epidemic anyone?

Edit: According to Kurogane the rehit rate on Arcthunder is 6. So we might need that many frames of shieldstun for it to be inescapable.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

This is kind of irrelevant if we're talking about how many frames it WOULD need to be inescapable. As it is right now, the opponent is still capable of rolling out of Arcthunder while shielding.