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Playing against actual people instead of training mode CPUs. Seriously though, I can't really get D-throw to combo into Arcthunder, but I can get D-throw > U-air and D-throw > U-Smash at certain percents.
I believe (is the word "believe" correct in this context ?) Ftilt does 1 more % than Utilt, but is not guaranteed at certain %, where Utilt actually is. However, Ftilt send the opponent away from us so we can breathe or send him off-stage. I think Utilt or Ftilt depends of the situation and there isn't really a superior and inferior follow up between these two.
I played robin at my local yesterday and suffered a lot of the same problem. People just nair or jump out, so you have to be a little more aware. I would end up down throwing and reading their jumps with either an immediate up air or delaying arcthunder a bit to trap their landing (mostly higher %s where they'd air dodge) and potentially follow up. Experimented a bit with down throw into SH arcfire to catch their jumpouts but it wasn't very reliable.
I guess you're probably too slow, it happens to me sometimes. Don't hesitate to buff the jump command before the throw's animation is over, and remember that it's a full jump most of the time, not a short hop.
Perhaps you've gotten it better since you stated this, but I got it on DK at 160 in training mode against a level 9 set to Attack. He's killable well before that, though (around 130), so it's probably not worth the effort. Managed Kirby as low as 83, too. It's probably doable across the board, but it could become VERY specific on certain weight/fallspeed combinations, especially when you factor in rage.
Yes, people have been complaining about that practically since day 1
Never encountered a case where I'd want to use it thus, but alright, thanks for confirming.
Wait, what exactly happened to Mario right after the footstool (but before the Dair spike)?
Wow...that's actually really insane. Holy Tactics, Batman.
[07B][2] 44 -> 38 (dThrow ends 6 frames faster)
[227][2] 55 -> 45 (Thunder & Elthunder end 10 frames faster)
[228][2] 55 -> 45 (Thunder+ & Elthunder+ end 10 frames faster; not accounting for frame speed mods)
[229][2] 55 -> 45 (Speed Thunder & Speed Elthunder end 10 frames faster; not accounting for frame speed mods)
[22B][2] 43 -> 40 (Arcthunder ends 3 frames faster)
[22C][2] 43 -> 40 (Arcthunder+ ends 3 frames faster; not accounting for frame speed mods)
[22D][2] 43 -> 40 (Speed Arcthunder ends 3 frames faster; not accounting for frame speed mods)
[243][2] 55 -> 45 (Aerial Thunder & Elthunder end 10 frames faster)
[244][2] 55 -> 45 (Aerial Thunder+ & Elthunder+ end 10 frames faster; not accounting for frame speed mods)
[245][2] 55 -> 45 (Aerial Speed Thunder & Speed Elthunder end 10 frames faster; not accounting for frame speed mods)
[247][2] 43 -> 40 (Aerial Arcthunder ends 3 frames faster)
[248][2] 43 -> 40 (Aerial Arcthunder+ ends 3 frames faster; not accounting for frame speed mods)
[249][2] 43 -> 40 (Aerial Speed Arcthunder ends 3 frames faster; not accounting for frame speed mods)[14][2] 0.20000000298 -> 0.600000023842
[14][3] 0.600000023842 -> 0.800000011921
[14][9] 0.699999988079 -> 0.800000011921
[14][29] 0.300000011921 -> 0.800000011921
[14][30] 0.20000000298 -> 0.600000023842
THANK YOU!
Further supporting this data: The other [14]s that changed this build were Marth/Lucina's Dolphin Slash landing lags!
[14][2] 0.20000000298 -> 0.600000023842 (Elwind's first gust has triple the aerial control)
[14][3] 0.600000023842 -> 0.800000011921 (Elwind's second gust has 30% more aerial control)
[14][9] 0.699999988079 -> 0.800000011921 (Soaring Elwind's second gust has 14% more aerial control)
[14][29] 0.300000011921 -> 0.800000011921 (Gliding Elwind's first gust has nearly triple the aerial control)
[14][30] 0.20000000298 -> 0.600000023842 (Gliding Elwind's second gust has triple the aerial control)Strictly speaking we consider them all 'Thunder variants', but they're all part of the same spell. I guess Elthunder and Arcthunder are the most similar, as the other 2 are beams?Further supporting this data: The other [14]s that changed this build were Marth/Lucina's Dolphin Slash landing lags!
Let's dig deeper: Hypothesized actual changes
Code:[14][2] 0.20000000298 -> 0.600000023842 (Elwind's first gust has triple the aerial control) [14][3] 0.600000023842 -> 0.800000011921 (Elwind's second gust has 30% more aerial control) [14][9] 0.699999988079 -> 0.800000011921 (Soaring Elwind's second gust has 14% more aerial control) [14][29] 0.300000011921 -> 0.800000011921 (Gliding Elwind's first gust has nearly triple the aerial control) [14][30] 0.20000000298 -> 0.600000023842 (Gliding Elwind's second gust has triple the aerial control)
EDIT: Oh, and having the Thunder / Arcthunder frames swapped means that Arcthunder's SpecialNShoot is placed before Thunder's SpecialNShoot in the code. I thought I could rely on them to be put in order of charge level
I guess the real question here is: Did Elthunder get 10 frames knocked off, too, or only 3? (or 0, which is even MORE confusing)
10. Definitely 10.
No, thank YOU sir!
Actually I have some reiteration to do.
Helpless didn't seeeeeem much different, but it's definitely possible?
The helpless would only be a 14% difference from 1.0.8. It would also match the control you had over your second gust.
The magic of data mining!I (Combined with actual testing.)
Levin is indeed a much stronger spike. Not sure how much more exactly but compare spikes at the same % and dair spikes people straight into the blast zones at 80%, elwind just blows them far down enough that they can't recover (unless villager or duck hunt or something).
