ROB OFFICIAL MATCHUP DISCUSSION: Ness

[Syde7]

This week's char discussion is Ness. We're getting to the end of the characters (only like... 7 more left, I'll start the 2x/week next time) so let's get on this stuff and wrap it up, please!

ROB's Advantages:

ROB's Disadvantages:

Opponent's Advantages:

Opponent's Disadvantages:

What ROB should try to do:

How opponent can stop it:

What Opponent should be trying to do:

How ROB can stop it:

Counterpicks (what ROB should pick/ What opponent will pick {If you're someone contributing from another board})
Bans (what ROB should ban 1 via stage strike, 1 via personal ban)
Preferred Neutral (what ROB wants/ What opponent wants {If you're someone contributing from another board})

Ratio:

Plus, any anecdotes/explanations you wanna give.

Get on it, sunshine!

 

[GwJ]

Ok, let's see.

ROB's Advantages: Outcamps Ness, lives longer, isn't gimped, range

ROB's Disadvantages: Fat and gets hit by everything, even though ROB laughs in the face of Spikes, he doesn't laugh at Ness's. ROB's slow falling speed makes it hard to gimp a low-recovering Ness by Fairing him.

Opponent's Advantages: Kills ROB at ~60% with a Dair offstage, Recovery almost always kills if it connects. Amazing aerials

Opponent's Disadvantages: Not the best survivability rate, Kill power lacks a little bit, can't get around ROB's camping very well. (absorbing does not count because Ness doesn't gain any ground towards ROB, so it doesn't counter)

What ROB should try to do: Poke and camp. I love poking at Ness's so much. When you're not camping (when Ness starts approaching), get ready. Be ready to Dtilt, Fthrow/Bthrow him, run to the opposite side and camp. Ness can't counteract your camping unless he knows exactly when you'll laser, because he doesn't have time to switch from his absorbing to shielding if you have a charged gyro ready. But really, get him offstage and follow up, just be wary of a rising Dair from Ness. It IS deadly.

How opponent can stop it: Predicting your laser and being unpredictable with approaching when needed.

What Opponent should be trying to do: Whenever I play Ness's they seem to always being going for that Dair offstage because it kills so **** early. Ness also racks damage pretty nicely because of his aerials tricksies.

How ROB can stop it: Always have your UpB ready to meteor cancel when you're offstage and do what I said before, camp and poke until you're ready to go for the kill.

Counterpicks (what ROB should pick/ What opponent will pick {If you're someone contributing from another board})
I always go Rainbow Cruise vs. Ness. Even though I'm offstage a lot, you're usually near the top where you have plenty of time to meteor cancel and traversing the stage as Ness is difficult as it is, let alone trying to get around ROB running circles around him.

Bans (what ROB should ban 1 via stage strike, 1 via personal ban)

I ban BF vs. Ness. This stage gives ROB no breathing room vs. all of Ness's ****ed up aerials and you're offstage more as there's platforms and less stage, so Dair is more of a threat.

Preferred Neutral (what ROB wants/ What opponent wants {If you're someone contributing from another board})

Final Destination is where I go. This gives plenty of room for ROB to camp and lets him live forever too. This stage also has plenty of offstage space so Dair isn't too bad here. Smashville has a similar affect.

Ratio: 60-40 ROB

 

[GwJ]

bumping. Stop being lazy ROB boards.

 

[Mag!c]

I only play Ness casually, so my thoughts may be scattered or off.

Ness has a hard time with a campy ROB, but in close range he can give ROB a great deal of trouble. His strong aerials combined with unfamiliar aerial movement in comparison to the rest of the cast can give ROB a hell of a time, and ROB makes an easy target when above Ness for PK Thunder tailwhipping, which can be very annoying. I agree with GWJumpman on the strategy of poking and camping- Ness should not have an easy time bypassing ROB's laser-gyro combination, with F-Tilt, Smash, and Air to keep up a wall. Early on I believe that both sides have ample chances to take a quick stock from each other- ROB with F-Air/B-Air wall edgeguarding, and Ness with an excellently timed D-Air spike.

Ness can primarily KO, if I'm not mistaken, with his F-Smash, B-Air, U-Air, and D-Air. He can be very annoying with PK Thunder+tailwhipping (hitting them with only the tail of the PK Thunder), and with his F-Air to keep up pressure and damage. For this reason I believe picking a wider stage will give ROB the advantage; ban Battlefield and other stages where Ness can get into ROBs up-close combat zone relatively easily. Take Rainbow Cruise, or another wide open stage where Ness's awkward recovery/movement can be punished, or where you can comfortably camp.

 

[shinhed-echi]

Ness would be my 3rd character, and I've mained (or top 3'd) him since 64, so I might have some input.

How I would handle ROB:

-Try to jump out of laser angle, and come back down with FAIR just in case it attempts an approach.

-Never confront him in an aerial battle. ROB's fair is a bit faster, and deals more damage than one of Ness Fair's sparks (which will have little knockback).

-Attempt to lure him into an aerial PK fire. Yeah, it's a very risky move, but if Ness doesn't use it frequently, ROB will not see it coming. Then follow up with either a Fsmash, or a PKThunder 2. Since ROB is huge, the PKFire2 will hold him enough to get hit by it.

-If I smash him off stage, I'd spam PK thunder a lot. I'd try to hit him from behind so it pulls him back. By the time he gets back on stage, I'd have at least hit him with two PK thunders.

-Never attempt to spike off the ledge. (Unless I'm certain it'll hit, at least, or if I see that ROB's gas has run out, and he's heading for the ledge). I prefer to wait standing on the edge and spike him.

For close combat, short hops and fairs is the best. Go too high, and Ness is thruster fodder or gets hit by ROB's Fair. Stay on the ground, and Ness'll be poked to kingdom's come or Dsmashed a lot.

Ness Uair is a powerful killing move, and ROB can only do so much as dodge it.

I'm a big fan of PK Flash, but I admit it won't work too well on ROB, unless the ROB player doesn't know how to dodge while recovering with B+Up.

 

[Deadweight]

I play one of the better ness mains in florida occasionally so I know the matchup pretty well.

ROB's Advantages: We space better, we camp better, we gimp there poor recovery.

ROB's Disadvantages: Very large hurtbox = lots of combos.

Opponent's Advantages: He can absorb lasers. He has an amazing spike. Backthrow kills relativly low

Opponent's Disadvantages: ****ty recovery, inability to handle camping, slowest grabrelease in the game.

What ROB should try to do: camp with gyro and be unpredictable with laser. If you start getting predictable with the laser he will start absorbing them ... Space with f-tilt when ness is approaching from the ground (usually never) and space with retreating fair in the air. His f-air eats right through yours and chains into another 1-4 more at low percents. If you grab a ness...Pummle till he groud releases -> Dtilt til he trips repeat. Due to ness's slow recovery rate from the ground release he cannot punish you for this

How opponent can stop it: Stay ontop of rob at all times. Combo with fairs and do not get grabbed.

Counterpicks Orpheon lylat are both good choices.
Bans Pirate ship if its legal and delphino if it isnt.
Preferred Neutral Yoshi's: It wrecks his recovery (He will more than likely ban this)
Ratio: 65-35

 

[Cacti]

Ehh... I don't know much about this matchup but...

-Ness has a hard time getting around ROB's camping, but once he does, he wreaks havok with fairs and nairs. Try to distance yourself from him, poking him.
-Ness' most common KO moves are bair, uair, bthrow, and dair (spike, but can also sourspot). ROB is susceptible to rising uair KOs and PKT juggling due to his blindspot under him, and I'm not sure how hard it is to grab him.
-I don't think it would be that too easy to spike ROB as he has a very good uair.
-Ness is also susceptible to uair juggling by ROB due to his slow dair, but I think that drifting and fairing is a good way to stop it.

As long as ROB can keep Ness away, Ness can't really do much. You don't want to go to small stages or ones with platforms that Ness can use to get around projectiles, such as Battlefield or Pokemon Stadium 1.

I would say that this matchup is around 60-40 ROB, or maybe 55-45 ROB (leaning towards advantage), as while ROB can keep Ness away from him, sometimes he just slips through and builds up tons of damage with strings of aerials.

 

[Uffe]

Nice bit of info there. As for Ness' recovery, it depends on where you put him. If he's high or at stage level, he still has the ability to return. Fighting opponents at my level, I was able to beat R.O.B.. However, I've played some very good ones and could only win like once. I do believe this is 60:40, R.O.B.'s favor. Anyway, let's get on with the show.

R.O.B. can out-camp Ness, but he can still get to R.O.B.. Projectile is a big no-no when fighting against R.O.B. since it'll leave Ness open. Of course PK Thunder is an exception if you can get R.O.B. off the stage. PK Fire also works, but it's best not to use it on occasions. Correct me if I am wrong, but R.O.B. doesn't do good in the air, right? I was told that Ness should keep R.O.B. in the air.

Ness' fair can block [and even grab] R.O.B.'s Gyro, if I recall correctly. When R.O.B. knocks Ness off the stage, the best option might be nair. I know R.O.B.'s fair comes out quicker than Ness'. Of course often times that's the last place Ness will be landing. If R.O.B. is at a distance and you're off stage, chances are he'll use his Gyro or Laser. Obviously you should dodge the Gyro and absorb the Laser.

Same applies somewhat on stage. If R.O.B. is far away and decides to use his Gyro, you can Bat it and pick it up leaving only his Laser as an option. Yoshi's Island is a good choice against Ness and it doesn't exactly mean gimpsville for him, but there is that Platform Ghost that appears every so often. Frigate Orpheon might be another choice, but the stage flips eventually making it possible to recover on both sides. 60:40, R.O.B.

 

[AvariceX]

Most of what's need to be said has already been said. However, it appears that a lot of people still don't realize that Ness can roll out of absorbing something just like rolling out of a shield.

Normally I'd go off on a long rant about how smart Nesses don't really get gimped anymore but ROB is one of only 2 characters () who I feel can actually gimp Ness enough for it to matter. Almost all of my experience against ROB comes from playing HolyNightmare... the matchup is somewhere between 60:40 - 65:35 ROB's advantage, but it's definitely not any worse than that for Ness.

What I do want to say (and this is true of all matchup discussions) is that people analyze the abstracts way too much (such as PSI Magnet, gimping, camping) while (not completely) ignoring the basics, such as how ROB's Fair pretty much ***** Ness (frowny face).

Also if Ness is getting caught by grab release -> dtilt -> regrab then he isn't SDI'ing properly.

 

[Uffe]

That was well written. As for the over analyzing, I'd like to point out that R.O.B. can in fact out-camp Ness, but he can only do it for so long. His laser needs to recharge and if his Gyro is still on the field or in the hands of another, then he can't use it until it's disappeared. I just wanted to point that out.

 

[_clinton]

Ness' magnet actually has a use in this match IMO...its actually kind of easy to time the max level laser and it works as a counter to ROB's defense laser when knocked away...

Also I don't know why you guys have an issue with people camping when Ness has an advanced tech that is pretty much an anti camper move...I'll admit ROB has a great camping game...but whatever...to each there own...

 

[GwJ]

Correct me if I am wrong, but R.O.B. doesn't do good in the air, right?

As long as you keep ROB ABOVE you. If he's at a horizontal level, he goes about even with Ness. If ROB's above you though, you're just going to get a free 20-40 percent if the ROB isn't careful, same goes for the reverse as well.

 

[NessBrawler]

In my experience against R.O.B. He is the perfect counter for ness. NEss can't stay in the air as long as he can which can make an off stage fight a pain. Which mans your down to mindgames with PSI thunder. Rob also seems to be able to keep a pwning distance at ness making him such a great counter it's a strong counter 65:35 Robs favor.

 

[Tin Man]

careful, ness' back air can trade hits with our Uair, ammi rite avarice

 

[TheMike]

ok, let me say some things about tis match-up...


IMO it's best for ROB to play close to Ness, as he has advantages in the range of his Tilts
ans they allow ROB to follow up with many options, eg.: Dtilt>Grab; Dtilt>Dash Attack;
Utilt>Utilt; Utilt>Uair and others
ROB can also punish Ness very hard with Dsmash OoS.
ROB can gimp ness and then edgeguard him with Neutral B when Ness is preparing to recovery with UpB
Camp shoul not be so nice, especially with the Neutral B as Ness can Down B it and recovery %s
Gyro is nice, but it has too much startup lag and most of chars can PS it, when thrown as a iten,
the best option is Glide Tossing

Ness has a good Air Game with Aerials that came out really fast and can kill soon
Dair off stage is also great because ROB can't Air Dodge while using his UpB

Planying as ROB, u should avoid silly mistakes, like lagging
U also should have a great spacing so as not to be hitted by Ness' Attacks
with desjointed hitboxes, which would be difficult as u r too big =(

My recomendation is to play close to Ness, avoid silly mistakes and play intelligentment, using Quick Attacks,
Dsmash OoS, EG correctly and others


Stage for ROB's advantages is Frigate Orpheon because of the gimping options
Neutral --> Smashville helps with the Close Game
Ban: BF because of the plattformas that gives Ness advantages on the Air Game



=)

 

[Robin1613]

That was well written. As for the over analyzing, I'd like to point out that R.O.B. can in fact out-camp Ness, but he can only do it for so long. His laser needs to recharge and if his Gyro is still on the field or in the hands of another, then he can't use it until it's disappeared. I just wanted to point that out.

THANK YOU UFFE!

People don't realise that by the time R.O.B lazers are done charging, hes got a fist full of f-air in his face....

Other than that 60-40 sounds right.

 

[Deadweight]

THANK YOU UFFE!

People don't realise that by the time R.O.B lazers are done charging, hes got a fist full of f-air in his face....

Other than that 60-40 sounds right.

no...no we wont. If we shoot off a laser we follow it up with a gyro. If we cant shoot the gyro (cause its on the field) then we are doing it wrong. The gyro should always be in rob's hand (So we can gt) If you are close enough to fair us we wouldnt laser to begin with.