Rivals of Aether - Official Thread

[FallenHero]

Parry is a bit of a risk, but it's undeniably greater reward for lesser risk compared to Smash, which I find concerning as it is already a pretty strong defensive option in Smash if used right.

Watching the Sethlon vs Zman set immediately raised a bunch of red flags to me, Zman was almost able to completely shut down Sethlon with those parries, and Kragg is so beefy that he can afford to guess wrong a ton of times. He also points out in other videos that Kragg side B (the spindash move) is almost totally worthless because you can just parry and Smash it for free every single time. In Smash, this would be the kind of move that you wouldn't be able to spot dodge at all.

We'll see what happens when the game is out, but as a longtime Smash player who uses spot dodge heavily (I play Yoshi, Spot Dodge into Down B is how I get like half my kills), removing the checks and balances Smash places on Spot Dodging instantly makes me a bit wary.

That set actually made the game look more interesting to me, since it shows you can't just do big damage by just getting one hit to start a combo, you actually have to worry about getting parried and punished.

 

[jam1garner]

For Wrastor, his strong attacks ARE his aerials. Then what? And then we have moves like Orcane's backwards Fair. That's a kill move. Should he not be super hard punished for reverse-Fairing into a parry?

Another thing to note, is that parries scale. The person parried will be the first out of parry lag if it is a jab (invincibility from parry balances that though) while parrying wrastor's down strong will probably get you an uncharged upsmash. Also in smash 4 spot dodge is also really good too, you can spot doge any frame 4+ jab then get a grab, are start of half of the combos. But how do you punish a spotdodge for characters without a multi hit to power through the spotdodge? You bait/read it, just like in rivals.

 

[Terotrous]

For Wrastor, his strong attacks ARE his aerials. Then what? And then we have moves like Orcane's backwards Fair. That's a kill move. Should he not be super hard punished for reverse-Fairing into a parry?

Sure, parrying a Wrastor Air Smash attack for a huge punish is fine, but in most cases it was either neutral or forward air getting parried and he was still getting punished really hard. It sounds like this is occurring because those moves have a lot of active frames, which gives them a ton of parry lag. It's possible that may be the real issue. A move like Wrastor Nair should probably have comparable parry lag to a jab, so you can parry to stop the pressure but you can't punish him for it.


Anyway, we'll see, but colour me not shocked if Kragg is top tier and Wrastor is bottom tier solely due to how parrying works.


EDIT: Just watched the set again. There's no instance of an Air Smash getting parried. The moves that get parried are:

Dash Attack
Nair
Bair
Ftilt? (the spinny ground move)

Kragg gets DSmash on all of these. He also gets DSmash vs Zetterburn Ftilt and Shine.

Maybe the problem is that Kragg DSmash is just too fast for how strong it is.

Also in smash 4 spot dodge is also really good too, you can spot doge any frame 4+ jab then get a grab, are start of half of the combos. But how do you punish a spotdodge for characters without a multi hit to power through the spotdodge? You bait/read it, just like in rivals.

Does any character in the game not have a single move which is active enough to beat spot dodges? Off the top of my head I can't think of one.

Note that for many characters it may be something like Short Hop nair.

 

[jam1garner]

Sure, parrying a Wrastor Air Smash attack for a huge punish is fine, but in most cases it was either neutral or forward air getting parried and he was still getting punished really hard. It sounds like this is occurring because those moves have a lot of active frames, which gives them a ton of parry lag. It's possible that may be the real issue. A move like Wrastor Nair should probably have comparable parry lag to a jab, so you can parry to stop the pressure but you can't punish him for it.


Anyway, we'll see, but colour me not shocked if Kragg is top tier and Wrastor is bottom tier solely due to how parrying works.


EDIT: Just watched the set again. There's no instance of an Air Smash getting parried. The moves that get parried are:

Dash Attack
Nair
Bair
Ftilt? (the spinny ground move)

Kragg gets DSmash on all of these. He also gets DSmash vs Zetterburn Ftilt and Shine.

Maybe the problem is that Kragg DSmash is just too fast for how strong it is.



Does any character in the game not have a single move which is active enough to beat spot dodges? Off the top of my head I can't think of one.

Note that for many characters it may be something like Short Hop nair.

But if you know a spotdodge/parry is coming, why can't you wait to punish instead of beat it out? Wouldn't that be more effective in both cases? And parry has only a couple of active frames, so fox trotting, dash dancing, and wave dashing to mix up timings to bait a parry.

 

[Puppyfaic]

There's honestly no way to really "fix" what you're complaining about, and it doesn't need fixing in the first place. All parrying does is double(triple?) the end-lag a move has, and provide invincibility. If a move doesn't have that much end lag, you won't eat a hard punish. If it does, you're going to die at 50 because you were being really f***ing stupid.

Kragg will never be top tier because of a single UNIVERSAL mechanic. If anything, Wrastor or more combo-centric characters will benefit more, because they can start something up then kill you super easy. You're also forgetting the fact that Kragg is SLOW AF. You can see what's coming a mile away, so he's probably going to fall victim to parrying more than anyone.

 

[someonetookjacob]

Sure, parrying a Wrastor Air Smash attack for a huge punish is fine, but in most cases it was either neutral or forward air getting parried and he was still getting punished really hard. It sounds like this is occurring because those moves have a lot of active frames, which gives them a ton of parry lag. It's possible that may be the real issue. A move like Wrastor Nair should probably have comparable parry lag to a jab, so you can parry to stop the pressure but you can't punish him for it.


Anyway, we'll see, but colour me not shocked if Kragg is top tier and Wrastor is bottom tier solely due to how parrying works.


EDIT: Just watched the set again. There's no instance of an Air Smash getting parried. The moves that get parried are:

Dash Attack
Nair
Bair
Ftilt? (the spinny ground move)

Kragg gets DSmash on all of these. He also gets DSmash vs Zetterburn Ftilt and Shine.

Maybe the problem is that Kragg DSmash is just too fast for how strong it is.



Does any character in the game not have a single move which is active enough to beat spot dodges? Off the top of my head I can't think of one.

Note that for many characters it may be something like Short Hop nair.

Other characters have strong options out of counter too. So I dont think Kraggs down-strong is unfairly strong in comparison to the rest of the cast. I am pretty sure the lag after a parry has been increased since the June build I have, but I can tell you from playing the game extensively that, while you are not wrong and parrying is a very strong option, It doesnt feel broken or anything. I will be happy if it is just a bit more unsafe to spam, and hopefully increasing the lag after parry will help with that.

Another thing about Kragg and parries, as Puppyfaic pointed out, Is that because Kragg has fewer combos than some other characters he has to start up his hits more often, and those first hits are the ones that will get parried most. If anything I think parrying is hardest on kragg. While it is true he punishes hard, he can also get combo-ed really hard if he uses an unsafe approach.

They key is that you need to bait out parries by whiffing areal approaches, or dashdancing, or... whatever. Then use the window after they missed to start up a combo. Its also important to know when they can escape combos and you should stop pushing forward. It actually works out to a pretty nice balance because both getting a combo started, and getting parried are so strong and can lead to a kill. It also leads to some change in playstyle by percent. At lower percents punishes of parries are less devastating so you can play more aggressively. At higher percents you have to carefully place moves and bait things, but just throw out big hard moves. Having been playing with the system for nine months I think it feels pretty good.

Again, I would just be happy if there was more end lag on missed parries, to make them easier to punish and more risky, but other than that, I think they are fine.

 

[Terotrous]

There's honestly no way to really "fix" what you're complaining about, and it doesn't need fixing in the first place. All parrying does is double(triple?) the end-lag a move has, and provide invincibility. If a move doesn't have that much end lag, you won't eat a hard punish. If it does, you're going to die at 50 because you were being really f***ing stupid.

Short hop Nair with Wrastor isn't really what I'd call "stupid", it's more like "the bread and butter of his neutral game". Unlike all of the other characters, he has no range game to fall back on, pressure is literally his only thing. If he has to think twice every time he hits a button for fear of being hit with a smash attack he's going to be bad.

Imagine if Melee Fox could never safely Nair or DownB, he would be terrible. His entire playstyle relies on the safety of those moves.

Incidentally, a way to "fix" this issue might be to have parry lag depend on the damage a move does, not how long it stays active. This preserves the general trend where harder hitting moves are stunned longer (as those moves also tend to have longer recovery), but weak, active moves like sex kicks and such are no longer ludicrously vulnerable to being parried.

Kragg will never be top tier because of a single UNIVERSAL mechanic

The mechanic is universal, but the reward off a parry is not. If Kragg parries almost any tilt or aerial when you're at around 80%, you're dead. So far it doesn't look like anyone else gets guaranteed death at those percents.

If anything, Wrastor or more combo-centric characters will benefit more, because they can start something up then kill you super easy.

Maybe if it turns out that they have truly guaranteed 50-death combos or something, but their combos are obviously going to be vulnerable to DI, whereas a simple downsmash is much more reliable. Also, Kragg did pull out some pretty decent combos himself off of parries at low percents, it's not like he has no combos or anything.

You're also forgetting the fact that Kragg is SLOW AF. You can see what's coming a mile away, so he's probably going to fall victim to parrying more than anyone.

Kragg's neutral game largely focuses around Rock and Pillar, neither of which are particularly vulnerable to parrying. You might think "well, all you have to do is get in, then his slow normals will be a liability", but of course he has Parry to make you think twice about going in.

I am pretty sure the lag after a parry has been increased since the June build I have

I assume you mean "decreased"? As in, you get a lesser punish after a successful parry?

They key is that you need to bait out parries by whiffing areal approaches, or dashdancing, or... whatever. Then use the window after they missed to start up a combo.

From what I saw, the window is incredibly short. Kragg probably missed about 30 parries in that set, and got punished maybe twice.

Also, if you have to face a 50/50 every time you go in (will he parry or not?), with a potentially disastrous punish if you guess wrong, people will tend to fall back on safer options, like long-range combat, resulting in a very defense-heavy game. There need to be some low risk, low reward pressure options that don't lead to much but can't be punished by parrying. Right now, it looks like only jabs fit this bill. Most characters probably need at least one aerial that is also fairly safe.

Its also important to know when they can escape combos and you should stop pushing forward.

The bigger problem is that there are times where you may have momentum / advantage, but you still can't push it very hard because the risk of a parry is too great.

Having been playing with the system for nine months I think it feels pretty good.

My biggest concern is that most of the people playing this game seem to be Melee vets who don't use spot dodge much because in Melee it's a terrible option. Watching that Sethlon set, I could see at least another dozen times I would have parried as the Kragg player, and in almost every case it would have worked. One of my favourite spots to Spot Dodge in Smash is whenever I'm at a minor frame disadvantage, say, -3 or so. In Smash, there are very few moves that have 3 frame startup, yet whenever someone has frame advantage, they basically always want to press a button, because they know that if I was also to press a button, their attack would become active first and thus they would win the exchange. A spot dodge in this situation is almost always successful, even against good players. Melee vets would probably tend to wavedash back in this situation instead, which is not rewarded nearly as heavily in this game.


We'll see what happens when the game is out next week, but this is definitely the mechanic I'll be watching most closely.

Again, I would just be happy if there was more end lag on missed parries, to make them easier to punish and more risky, but other than that, I think they are fine.

This might help, though I feel that you don't want the risk / reward to be too insane (guess right = take a stock, guess wrong = lose a stock), because then the game becomes too random and volatile. I would lean towards lesser reward on a successful parry instead.

 

[RoA_Zam]

For Wrastor, his strong attacks ARE his aerials. Then what? And then we have moves like Orcane's backwards Fair. That's a kill move. Should he not be super hard punished for reverse-Fairing into a parry?

Orcane doesnt even have enough time to turn around and get a reverse fair out of a parry anyways

 

[Terotrous]

Orcane doesnt even have enough time to turn around and get a reverse fair out of a parry anyways

I think he was talking about Orcane Fair being parried, not being used to punish after a parry.

 

[Bi_o]

Orcane doesnt even have enough time to turn around and get a reverse fair out of a parry anyways

I like how this is what he is concerned about for the entirety of this conversation about parries.

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I'd really like to chime in on this one, since parries are probably one of the bigger points of contention, but I honestly don't know what I would exactly be arguing for.

All I can really say is what a lot of other people have said: There hasn't been much evidence one way or the other, since it will only be first getting to the general public 6 days from now, so until we start seeing major problems with parrying, I'm afraid that the arguments for a period of time will have little more to them other than, "You can get this off of that" or "I watched this set, and..."

If it seems like I'm just assuming that there isn't any fact behind any of this, then I apologize; that's not what I meant by it. The problem I see in arguing about it now is that we simply don't have enough instances where parry has been abused to the point where it's obvious to the majority of people that it needs to be changed. Further down the road, things might change, but for now, it's a lot of speculation upon speculation and facts mixed together with theorycrafting (again, not entirely, but still present), which never really makes for a good, clean debate.

 

[Terotrous]

Oh sure, right now, there obviously isn't enough evidence to say "this is broken", which is why I called it "concerning". On paper, and through what limited footage we already have, parrying looks extremely strong. Even when used sparingly, it can turn difficult-looking matchups into complete domination, and so far there appears to be little true counterplay to it. However, the game is not out yet, people are not optimizing punishes and there may be more counterplay we don't yet know about.

It's definitely something I'd keep an eye on, though. That's what Early Access is for, I guess.

 

[FallenHero]

The thing is that the game needs something like parrying that allows such big punish, otherwise there would be little to nothing from stopping players being able to just rush you down the whole time while you can do little about it after you get hit once. From what I've seen this game has some big combo strings and if they were to nerf parrying it would make them a lot harder to avoid.

 

[Terotrous]

The thing is that the game needs something like parrying that allows such big punish, otherwise there would be little to nothing from stopping players being able to just rush you down the whole time while you can do little about it after you get hit once. From what I've seen this game has some big combo strings and if they were to nerf parrying it would make them a lot harder to avoid.

I totally agree that some kind of defensive mechanic needs to exist, but I question the reward being quite as big as it is. Even getting to escape pressure and reset the situation is still a good reward.

 

[Streetwize]

"Limited Footage"
Most of the people you are talking to have played the game. It's understandable that you may not have much to run by, but a lot of the people you are talking to in this debate have access to the game in one way or another. They have more than just "footage" to go by.

 

[Terotrous]

"Limited Footage"
Most of the people you are talking to have played the game. It's understandable that you may not have much to run by, but a lot of the people you are talking in this debate to have access to the game in one way or another. They have more than just "footage" to go by.

True, but even when it comes to beta testing, the sample size is still very limited. More games of Rivals of Aether will probably be played in the first day when it releases on Steam Early Access than have been played in the entirety of the beta. Within 1 week the metagame will probably look totally different from how it did pre-release.

However, if the beta testers want to chime in on this discussion and explain how their thoughts on the parry mechanic and how to abuse or work around it that would always be helpful.

 

[Streetwize]

I want to say that's fair enough, but I think you're taking things a little too extreme. Just because this is another game like Smash doesn't mean it's going to suffer the same fate of players transforming the game into what it wasn't intended. I also loathe your implication that you discredit the efforts of the playtesters. I'd like you to look into the background of this game's development as well as this game's designer before making such radical assumptions. We've had about 100 people overall play this game but it turned into a small group because development was becoming more serious. Dan's not perfect, but he's done a better job than Sakurai with a competitive Smash game as of late.

Edit: You can easily bait out parries with aerials by shifting your momentum. There's a gif on Twitter of Kragg using a reverse-jump b-reversal against a parrying opponent to hit Orcane after the period in the middle of a follow-up.

 

[Terotrous]

I want to say that's fair enough, but I think you're taking things a little too extreme. Just because this is another game like Smash doesn't mean it's going to suffer the same fate of players transforming the game into what it wasn't intended.

That's not really what I was saying at all, merely that we'll have a much better understanding of what's strong and what's not once everyone really gets their claws into the game.

I also loathe your implication that you discredit the efforts of the playtesters

I wasn't trying to discredit them, but there's only so much you can test in beta. This is kind of a known thing in game design, no matter how much you try to balance it before release there's simply no way to match the sheer volume of games that will be played once it comes out. Every game goes through this.

Perhaps you could take issue with my comment that "most of the testers seem to be Melee vets". It's true of the people I've seen play on stream, but it's a fair point that that's only a subset of the testers. I will amend it to "most of the footage that has been posted publicly has been from Melee vets".

Dan's not perfect, but he's done a better job than Sakurai with a competitive Smash game as of late.

This is a silly thing to post. Smash 4 is a great game and it is very competitive. Of course, a few balance issues have arisen, but the dev team has been monitoring the competitive scene and have generally made smart balance adjustments. There's always room for improvement but overall I'm quite happy with Smash 4.

However, I'm also really looking forward to this game, in part because it does something different, and also because I'll be able to play it with my PC friends who don't own Nintendo systems. Also, it just looks well-made and fun. Despite that, balance issues are a virtual certainty, because no game is ever perfectly balanced, especially not at launch. The Steam Early access page specifically notes that part of the point of Early Access is so they can make balance adjustments.

 

[jam1garner]

That's not really what I was saying at all, merely that we'll have a much better understanding of what's strong and what's not once everyone really gets their claws into the game.



I wasn't trying to discredit them, but there's only so much you can test in beta. This is kind of a known thing in game design, no matter how much you try to balance it before release there's simply no way to match the sheer volume of games that will be played once it comes out. Every game goes through this.

Perhaps you could take issue with my comment that "most of the testers seem to be Melee vets". It's true of the people I've seen play on stream, but it's a fair point that that's only a subset of the testers. I will amend it to "most of the footage that has been posted publicly has been from Melee vets".



This is a silly thing to post. Smash 4 is a great game and it is very competitive. Of course, a few balance issues have arisen, but the dev team has been monitoring the competitive scene and have generally made smart balance adjustments. There's always room for improvement but overall I'm quite happy with Smash 4.

However, I'm also really looking forward to this game, in part because it does something different, and also because I'll be able to play it with my PC friends who don't own Nintendo systems. Also, it just looks well-made and fun. Despite that, balance issues are a virtual certainty, because no game is ever perfectly balanced, especially not at launch. The Steam Early access page specifically notes that part of the point of Early Access is so they can make balance adjustments.

Of course there will be balance problems, there have been countless problems arisen and resolved. (#KraggOP) The thing is universally identical mechanics can never really be imbalanced because everyone can use them. Perhaps you don't like how good they are, but everyone can do them. You might say it's OP or meta centralizing, but lots of casual (scrub, but as described in "Playing to win") Smash 4 players that I am friends with argue the Melee is centralized on combos and advanced techniques, and that playing without them sucks in comparison. But the most useful ATs in melee are universal and almost every character can combo. It all stems from the "scrub" mentality. (See the first part of this playing to win summary: http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win)

 

[theopenlink22]

Parrying is definitely not a cheap mechanic that can be spammed. It takes frame perfect blocks to use. The person in that match obviously practiced.

 

[jam1garner]

Parrying is definitely not a cheap mechanic that can be spammed. It takes frame perfect blocks to use. The person in that match obviously practiced.

Not exactly frame perfect (implying it only has one active frame) but definitely requires practice, understanding of the opponent, and skill.

 

[AbsoluteBlack]

Parrying, as of it's latest nerf, is active for 7 frames (except maypul) and then has endlag for 12. It is fairly easily baitable, and can be punished as heavily on read as you can punish for a successful parry - 12 frames is a lot in this game if you have a read on them.

I, a dozen pages back or so, explained my complaints with parrying, but I never thought they were broken or weighted towards certain characters unfairly. Parries at their worst were kind of degenerate, but even that is loads better with the nerf they got a couple months ago.

 

[4nace]

Parrying, as of it's latest nerf, is active for 7 frames (except maypul) and then has endlag for 12. It is fairly easily baitable, and can be punished as heavily on read as you can punish for a successful parry - 12 frames is a lot in this game if you have a read on them.

I, a dozen pages back or so, explained my complaints with parrying, but I never thought they were broken or weighted towards certain characters unfairly. Parries at their worst were kind of degenerate, but even that is loads better with the nerf they got a couple months ago.

So the august nerf did increase the recovery to make parries more punishable.

Before August, they were at 1 startup. 8 active and 16 recovery (end lag).

Now they are at 2 startup, 8 active and 20 recovery.

Differences:

• Maypul has 6 active instead of 8.
• Forsburn has a bigger parry hurtbox and has 3 frames of startup and 24 frames of recovery.
• Absa has 10 active frames and 22 recovery frames. (matches her smashes not having to be as time dependent).

Some of the numbers have been altered recently, but these should be what we go with at early access launch.

-Dan

 

[Big Papi]

Differences:

• Maypul has 6 active instead of 8.
• Forsburn has a bigger parry hurtbox and has 3 frames of startup and 24 frames of recovery.
• Absa has 10 active frames and 22 recovery frames. (matches her smashes not having to be as time dependent).

Some of the numbers have been altered recently, but these should be what we go with at early access launch.

-Dan

I understand Maypul's (and Absa's) differences. But what is the reasoning behind Forsburn's?

 

[4nace]

I understand Maypul's (and Absa's) differences. But what is the reasoning behind Forsburn's?

Matches his animation is the main thing. Also fits the cloak and dagger style. Gameplay-wise its pretty crazy right now but initially was to help the fact that he didnt have many reliable kill moves.

 

[Bi_o]

So the august nerf did increase the recovery to make parries more punishable.

Before August, they were at 1 startup. 8 active and 16 recovery (end lag).

Now they are at 2 startup, 8 active and 20 recovery.

The first frame of startup is hidden due to how our parry/roll system works.

Differences:

• Maypul has 6 active instead of 8.
• Forsburn has a bigger parry hurtbox and has 3 frames of startup and 24 frames of recovery.
• Absa has 10 active frames and 22 recovery frames. (matches her smashes not having to be as time dependent).

Some of the numbers have been altered recently, but these should be what we go with at early access launch.

-Dan

Boy, am I glad I decided against trying to tell people what the frame data was for parrying, 'cause I would've been soooo wrongggggg.

 

[Terotrous]

The thing is universally identical mechanics can never really be imbalanced because everyone can use them

This is just not true at all, because even if a mechanic is universal it doesn't mean it affects everyone in the same way. For example, in Smash Bros, every character can UpB out of shield, it's part of the game engine. However, it's only ever useful for about a third of the cast, and there's only a couple characters where it is a mainstay of their defensive game.

Parry is the same. Although every character can parry, they all have different options to follow up after a successful parry, and different moves also vary in terms of how punishable they are if parried. The mechanic has very different implications for each character.


Also, as Dan wrote below, not everyone's Parry frame data is the same, anyway.

Parrying, as of it's latest nerf, is active for 7 frames (except maypul) and then has endlag for 12. It is fairly easily baitable, and can be punished as heavily on read as you can punish for a successful parry - 12 frames is a lot in this game if you have a read on them.

I, a dozen pages back or so, explained my complaints with parrying, but I never thought they were broken or weighted towards certain characters unfairly. Parries at their worst were kind of degenerate, but even that is loads better with the nerf they got a couple months ago.

I found your post, it was actually on page 65. I think you're getting at the same general concept I was talking about, where you can basically just toss out a parry any time you're in a disadvantaged state on the ground. If the opponent gets a true punish, you would have gotten hit anyway, if not you basically put them into a mixup where they have to guess between Parry / no Parry.

However, it's good to see that the devs are already looking at it. Increasing parry startup actually makes this strategy a lot weaker, because by choosing to parry you're now giving the opponent 2 extra frames of advantage, and in a game where most moves have fairly quick startup, every frame counts. Does anyone have any videos of the August build for comparison?

 

[Big Papi]

Matches his animation is the main thing. Also fits the cloak and dagger style. Gameplay-wise its pretty crazy right now but initially was to help the fact that he didnt have many reliable kill moves.

Gotcha on the animation and cloak/dagger style. Could you expand on why not having many reliable kill moves affects his parry differences? Are you saying he has a better parry? Because I was thinking his parry was the worst of them all.

 

[theopenlink22]

Few cool tricks I found with Kragg. You can combo jab to f-tilts and d-tilts and dash attacks all the way off-stage and then end it with a down air spike (read) at the end of a combo.

If you create a up-special pillar at the edge of the stage, it extends combos HEAVILY. You can do tilts over and over and they will bounce off the wall back into you. Free 64% (about) at low percents just from d-tilts!

Kraggs nair is really good. Like. REALLY good. It is 4 hitboxes one after another. The first one is South-East, then South-West, to North-West, to North-East. Each hitbox carries the enemy to the next hitbox. If you fast fall nair and just connect the first hitbox, the opponent will land right next to the other side of you. Free D-Smash or combo starter. Depending on DI, if you fast fall and just connect the first 2 hitboxes, they will land right above you, sometimes a free U-Smash or u-tilt for a more guaranteed hit. To do this though, you have to be frame perfect.

Also, if you are on top of your pillar holding a minekragg block, and someone hits the pillar, your freefall animation will be without the bolder, and when you land it will reappear.

 

[Bi_o]

This is just not true at all, because even if a mechanic is universal it doesn't mean it affects everyone in the same way. For example, in Smash Bros, every character can UpB out of shield, it's part of the game engine. However, it's only ever useful for about a third of the cast, and there's only a couple characters where it is a mainstay of their defensive game.

inb4 Yoshi in Melee, poor guy.

Increasing parry startup actually makes this strategy a lot weaker, because by choosing to parry you're now giving the opponent 2 extra frames of advantage, and in a game where most moves have fairly quick startup, every frame counts. Does anyone have any videos of the August build for comparison?

Firstly, I'm not sure if there is a legitimate August build, it's more along the lines of the EVO and Smashcon/Absa builds.

Also, just to clarify, what do you mean by "2 extra frames of advantage"? As far as I know, the 2nd frame is the first active frame, so once you hit the parry button, they can hit you on the first frame of the parry animation and then it's active from frames 2-9 (for the characters that don't have exceptions, that is).

 

[4nace]

Gotcha on the animation and cloak/dagger style. Could you expand on why not having many reliable kill moves affects his parry differences? Are you saying he has a better parry? Because I was thinking his parry was the worst of them all.

Forsburn has a great Parry because he can parry things in front of him in addition to what hits him. That is why he has a longer startup and recovery.

The green are his hurtboxes:

-Dan

 

[Bi_o]

Forsburn has a great Parry because he can parry things in front of him in addition to what hits him. That is why he has a longer startup and recovery.

The green are his hurtboxes:

-Dan

Hey Dan, what's the text in the corner? Is it something that we'll get to use in Early Access or is it just something only you get to use?

 

[FallenHero]

Forsburn has a great Parry because he can parry things in front of him in addition to what hits him. That is why he has a longer startup and recovery.

The green are his hurtboxes:

-Dan

The text in the corner of the picture....Taunts confirmed for early access release?

 

[4nace]

That's the frame advance text. That might be in Early Access

-Dan

 

[Bi_o]

might be in Early Access

Why is it always a "might"? whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

Kidding, but I'll be really hyped if it's actually in there.

 

[Terotrous]

Also, just to clarify, what do you mean by "2 extra frames of advantage"? As far as I know, the 2nd frame is the first active frame, so once you hit the parry button, they can hit you on the first frame of the parry animation and then it's active from frames 2-9 (for the characters that don't have exceptions, that is).

Basically, advantage is time the opponent has before you can do anything. If I'm recovering from some action, both the opponent and I can press a button, but the opponent's button will come out faster than mine because my previous animation has to finish, first.

The fact that spot dodge has 2 frames of startup means it takes 2 more frames before I can do anything if I choose to spotdodge. So if I had 3 frames of recovery and I try to spotdodge, I won't be safe until frame 5, which is long enough to get some attacks in.

 

[Bi_o]

Basically, advantage is time the opponent has before you can do anything. If I'm recovering from some action, both the opponent and I can press a button, but the opponent's button will come out faster than mine because my previous animation has to finish, first.

The fact that spot dodge has 2 frames of startup means it takes 2 more frames before I can do anything if I choose to spotdodge. So if I had 3 frames of recovery and I try to spotdodge, I won't be safe until frame 5, which is long enough to get some attacks in.

Ok, I thought that Dan meant that it was still active on frame 2, but I get it now. My b.

 

[Puppyfaic]

Short hop Nair with Wrastor isn't really what I'd call "stupid", it's more like "the bread and butter of his neutral game". Unlike all of the other characters, he has no range game to fall back on, pressure is literally his only thing. If he has to think twice every time he hits a button for fear of being hit with a smash attack he's going to be bad.

-It's pretty stupid if he can just shorthop nair all the time and always have a hitbox out that leads into a combo that leads into a kill. Again, braindead aggression is not what we want.

Imagine if Melee Fox could never safely Nair or DownB, he would be terrible. His entire playstyle relies on the safety of those moves.

-Maybe he'd actually be balanced, then.

Incidentally, a way to "fix" this issue might be to have parry lag depend on the damage a move does, not how long it stays active. This preserves the general trend where harder hitting moves are stunned longer (as those moves also tend to have longer recovery), but weak, active moves like sex kicks and such are no longer ludicrously vulnerable to being parried.

-That sounds horrible. Orcane's down strong does, what, 7%? He'd be able to get away with spamming down on the c-stick for free(which is what I already do anyway, HA) and suffer at most a tilt as a punish.

The mechanic is universal, but the reward off a parry is not. If Kragg parries almost any tilt or aerial when you're at around 80%, you're dead. So far it doesn't look like anyone else gets guaranteed death at those percents.

-As you should be. That's his type of playstyle. He needs the parry to make up for his lack of literally everything else. And pretty much anyone can kill at 80. Zetterburn can combo into a burned strong attack, Orcane can down strong -> up air, Wrastor can do stupid Wrastor stuff and kill you, Forsburn can do clone combos or kill you with Down B, Maypul can dash attack -> up air -> up air, and Absa can do Nair or Dair shenanigans into death. You must not have been around during the time when Zetterburn was absolutely ridiculous with his burn strongs. If you think Kragg is strong, you haven't seen anything.

Maybe if it turns out that they have truly guaranteed 50-death combos or something, but their combos are obviously going to be vulnerable to DI, whereas a simple downsmash is much more reliable. Also, Kragg did pull out some pretty decent combos himself off of parries at low percents, it's not like he has no combos or anything.

-DI has never been very noticeable for me in this game. All my combos work regardless of DI.

Kragg's neutral game largely focuses around Rock and Pillar, neither of which are particularly vulnerable to parrying. You might think "well, all you have to do is get in, then his slow normals will be a liability", but of course he has Parry to make you think twice about going in.

-Both of those are very vulnerable to parrying, actually. Parry the rock and it reflects back at him. Parry the pillar and you get a free vertical KO at, like, 50. Parry doesn't make you think about going in, but it makes you think about what to go in with, which is very good.

Also, if you have to face a 50/50 every time you go in (will he parry or not?), with a potentially disastrous punish if you guess wrong, people will tend to fall back on safer options, like long-range combat, resulting in a very defense-heavy game. There need to be some low risk, low reward pressure options that don't lead to much but can't be punished by parrying. Right now, it looks like only jabs fit this bill. Most characters probably need at least one aerial that is also fairly safe.

-You won't be facing a 50/50 every time you go in. No opponent is just gonna sit there and only mash parry. They'll be trying to throw out their own hitboxes, get proper spacing, set up their own traps, etc.

The bigger problem is that there are times where you may have momentum / advantage, but you still can't push it very hard because the risk of a parry is too great.

-Good. Momentum leads to braindead autopiloting. We want you to always be thinking about what buttons you're pushing.

My biggest concern is that most of the people playing this game seem to be Melee vets who don't use spot dodge much because in Melee it's a terrible option. Watching that Sethlon set, I could see at least another dozen times I would have parried as the Kragg player, and in almost every case it would have worked. One of my favourite spots to Spot Dodge in Smash is whenever I'm at a minor frame disadvantage, say, -3 or so. In Smash, there are very few moves that have 3 frame startup, yet whenever someone has frame advantage, they basically always want to press a button, because they know that if I was also to press a button, their attack would become active first and thus they would win the exchange. A spot dodge in this situation is almost always successful, even against good players. Melee vets would probably tend to wavedash back in this situation instead, which is not rewarded nearly as heavily in this game.

-I play Smash 4. A mostly defensive game. I literally don't care about parrying in RoA because it's not nearly as broken as you make it out to be. I'm used to actually thinking about my approaches and anticipating defensive reactions, so my thoughtful aggression is actually rewarded. Also, hindsight/spectator vision is 20/20. Just because you see something that could've worked in a match, doesn't mean that person did while the match was going on.

 

[Terotrous]

-It's pretty stupid if he can just shorthop nair all the time and always have a hitbox out that leads into a combo that leads into a kill. Again, braindead aggression is not what we want.

Actually, I feel like Wrastor is basically supposed to be like this. He's the one character who lacks any kind of range game, his thing is that he uses the jet stream to allow himself to apply more pressure. He needs to have noticeably better and safer pressure than the other characters to make up for his lack of versatility.

-Maybe he'd actually be balanced, then.

Fox is balanced within the context of the Melee top tiers, it's just that many of the other characters are simply quite bad in that game, having very poor moves or general frame data. Rivals of Aether is clearly skewing more towards the Melee Fox style of design, where most characters have very strong moves, movement, and combos

-That sounds horrible. Orcane's down strong does, what, 7%? He'd be able to get away with spamming down on the c-stick for free(which is what I already do anyway, HA) and suffer at most a tilt as a punish.

As noted elsewhere, many characters can combo tilts into other attacks, so "just a tilt" isn't necessary a light punish.

-Both of those are very vulnerable to parrying, actually. Parry the rock and it reflects back at him. Parry the pillar and you get a free vertical KO at, like, 50. Parry doesn't make you think about going in, but it makes you think about what to go in with, which is very good.

Kragg recovers fast enough to dodge the rock before it hits him unless thrown at point blank range. He can then punch the rock to send the shards at the opponent, so it's not really too bad a situation for him. Certainly way better than eating a guaranteed smash attack or combo.

Parrying the pillar might actually be pretty strong, but it comes out super fast, you'd need amazing prediction to land the parry, moreso than with regular attacks due to its range.

-You won't be facing a 50/50 every time you go in. No opponent is just gonna sit there and only mash parry. They'll be trying to throw out their own hitboxes, get proper spacing, set up their own traps, etc.

Any time I am in a disadvantage state, I'm looking for ways to reset the situation back to neutral, and parrying is one of the things I'll be using most often. Also, if Parry gives you the highest chance of success when the opponent gets in on you, it should be the move you're using most often if you want to win.

-Good. Momentum leads to braindead autopiloting. We want you to always be thinking about what buttons you're pushing.

No. Momentum is essential to a good fighting game. Without the concept of advantage and disadvantage states there is very little reward for offense and the game becomes very defensive. This does not necessarily mean that having an advantage state should guarantee success, but at the bare minimum, your chance of having things work out in your favour should be better than 50% (which is your chance of winning when the game is at neutral). This is why you never want the person in advantage to be facing a true 50/50 where the risk is just as great as the potential reward.


The main way to fix this is that the opponent's reward for guessing right in a disadvantage situation should generally just be to reset the game to neutral. This means the attacker's success rate is more like 75%, which is a pretty decent incentive without being broken (50% chance of opponent guessing wrong and being hit, which is a win, 50% chance of opponent guessing right and resetting the situation, which is a neutral outcome). This is generally how most other fighting games work, for example, in Street Fighter 4, if the opponent guesses right with delayed wakeup, they avoid whatever mixup was coming at them. They don't, however, get to punish the opponent for attempting that mixup. It merely resets the situation.

Of course, if you choose to heavily overextend yourself, you can get punished hard even in advantage, but there should be some offensive options that involve relatively little commitment (likely for lesser reward) that you can use to press the advantage with some degree of safety. Right now, it looks like the only moves that are really parry safe are jabs and a couple random specials (like Wrastor Up B, unless that got patched).

-I play Smash 4. A mostly defensive game. I literally don't care about parrying in RoA because it's not nearly as broken as you make it out to be.

It's stronger than any defensive option in Smash 4. Now, RoA does give you more reward on a successful hit than Smash4 does, but the risk is much higher, too.


Incidentally, I just realized that I recognize you from the Gamefaqs Pokken boards. Kind of ironic that you were pre-emptively calling Gengar broken there due to a nonexistent infinite.


Anyway, I've pretty much said my piece on this. We'll see how it works out. Changing Parry startup to 2 frames is likely a good start, this makes it weaker in disadvantage by giving the opponent more time to stick out a move before the player can feasibly parry. Despite this, I'm still kind of wary of having such a powerful defensive option in a game as fast-paced as Melee. One of the main reasons people liked Melee was that the defensive options weren't generally very strong, thus your main form of "defense" was actually precise movement and spacing. This game will almost certainly have a slower-paced neutral game compared to Melee since you have to be more wary of defensive options.

 

[Big Papi]

Forsburn has a great Parry because he can parry things in front of him in addition to what hits him. That is why he has a longer startup and recovery.

The green are his hurtboxes:

-Dan

Ohhh. I always thought he was only able to parry what's in front of him, and not what hits him.

 

[someonetookjacob]

-DI has never been very noticeable for me in this game. All my combos work regardless of DI.

I strongly disagree with this. Not DI-ing many attacks lead into infinite or crazy follow ups. DIing in against things like Kraggs n-air and dash attack lead to craaazy combos. With no DI alot of characters can up-tilt to up-tilt for... a looong time. I would say because of the increased hit-stun DI is more important in Rivals than in smash. Maybe the people you play with just DI really well or really badly all the time? IDK. But I would say DI is very noticeable and important in this game.

No. Momentum is essential to a good fighting game. Without the concept of advantage and disadvantage states there is very little reward for offense and the game becomes very defensive. This does not necessarily mean that having an advantage state should guarantee success, but at the bare minimum, your chance of having things work out in your favour should be better than 50% (which is your chance of winning when the game is at neutral). This is why you never want the person in advantage to be facing a true 50/50 where the risk is just as great as the potential reward.


The main way to fix this is that the opponent's reward for guessing right in a disadvantage situation should generally just be to reset the game to neutral. This means the attacker's success rate is more like 75%, which is a pretty decent incentive without being broken (50% chance of opponent guessing wrong and being hit, which is a win, 50% chance of opponent guessing right and resetting the situation, which is a neutral outcome). This is generally how most other fighting games work, for example, in Street Fighter 4, if the opponent guesses right with delayed wakeup, they avoid whatever mixup was coming at them. They don't, however, get to punish the opponent for attempting that mixup. It merely resets the situation.

Of course, if you choose to heavily overextend yourself, you can get punished hard even in advantage, but there should be some offensive options that involve relatively little commitment (likely for lesser reward) that you can use to press the advantage with some degree of safety. Right now, it looks like the only moves that are really parry safe are jabs and a couple random specials (like Wrastor Up B, unless that got patched).

I think you might be forgetting about the air game? In the air your defensive option is airdodge, which at best resets the situation. So during aerial combos the situation is approximately the 75-25 you describe. And from my play time, alot of combos people have involve two or three aerials (on air borne enemies) in a row. Characters wont always be on the ground in rivals either, it is a very air based game. So maybe that will help ease your worry some?