Rivals of Aether - Official Thread

[Chuck Tatum]

I really want to see match videos from that tournament, are they available?

 

[AbsoluteBlack]

In regards to Wrastor getting marth percented, I discussed this a lot with my roommates who I play with, and with ARC, and we all have similar feelings on it. I think the best way to solve this is to buff up one or two of his openers just a hair; I suggested downb (as a highly committal but effective mixup/tech punish) gets more hitstun (or less ability to be DI'd?) so that it was a consistent link to ustrong/fstrong/upspecial around 100%, ARC suggested Fair get the same treatment (I think that would possibly make his damage wrack up game even more absurdly powerful).

Other thoughts, Zburn definitely feels like the strongest character right now. Camp until 50% then fish for dstrong is... depressingly doable. But I think the already discussed scaling reduction/standardization is plenty for that. I also feel like everyone I see play this game is terrible at edgeguarding him.

You already mentioned it, but dear god Forsburn's clone. Ugh. The way hitting them both leaves him completely unaffected means that a Forsburn 'stack' basically has super armor; if you hit away the real Forsburn you just get utilted by the clone, which holds you in place more than long enough for the player to get back in and keep the hitstun on. It's not necessarily overpowered, but it's extremely irritating. I'm not sure how to fix that; every idea I've had has its own problems. I've honestly never liked Ice Climbers and such in platform fighters, and I have no idea how to make the mechanic work smoothly.

I also think Forsburn's nspecial is counterintuitive, in that hitting him (or the smoke) while it's active doesn't do anything (and even generates more smoke if you hit him hard enough). Not a huge deal, but it makes mashing nspecial pretty noncommittal and gives you no reason to not do it constantly as Forsburn.

I finally think Kragg is a good character. Pillar camping/pillar grabbing people doesn't really work anymore, but you can still catch people off guard with it and set up juggles. His recovery is punishable if you go offstage to catch him, but pretty safe otherwise. His combos are monstrous and his strongs can decimate off a read, or do nice damage at low percent. His brick gives him stage control but camping/spamming is less rewarding and easier to punish now (even for Orcane.)

I still don't like Orcane and I can't figure out why; he just doesn't mesh with my play, I guess. So I don't have much to say there :/

 

[Chuck Tatum]

Forsburn down-B is so very odd.

Placing the smoke is fine and it's fun to use especially when it's every where... but sucking it up takes forever and feels super counter intuitive. Why am I destroying my smoke when I want it to be there?

Then I suck up all of the smoke and gain a down-B attack which is honestly just very weak. I hit a Wastor at 80% with a direct hit today and it didn't even come close to killing him.

Most annoyingly though, if you try to place smoke while you are charged up... you lose your charge completely, which is really underwhelming. And when you gain the full charge all your smoke disappears?

also, down-B doing nothing when not charged is just... confusing and no fun.

The mechanic just seems to be at war with itself mechanically.

Overall, I find myself not even bothering to eat my smoke and just laying it around lazily over the course of the match while mostly ignoring it.

 

[RoA_Zam]

New thoughts on balance after the tournament we hosted (in format char 1, matchup percents ,char 2) :

New Tier thoughts:
- Orcane
- Zetterburn
- Wrastor
- Kragg
- Forsburn


Matchup thoughts:

Orcane 60 - 40 Wrastor - Orcane finally has a damn good use for his UStrong in this matchup. Orcane keeping close to his puddle and keeping Wrastor out with bubbles is amazing.
Orcane 65 - 35 Zetterburn - Zetterburn is the perfect combo weight for Orcane. A Zetterburn trying to kill Orcane with a FStrong is easily stuffed by upB recovery or a retreating puddle Strong attack. Parry fire and this matchup is a breeze. Orcane DStrong and Puddle kind of destroy Zetterburn's recovery.
Orcane 60 - 40 Forsburn - Forsburn is so slow that all Orcane really needs to worry about is getting rid of the clone and staying out of the Fstrong cape range (which is easy if you're familiar with puddle FStrong range).
Orcane 55 - 45 Kragg - Orcane can combo Kragg all day long but Kragg Strong attacks and dash attack stuff Orcane recovery and approaches, respectively.

Zetterburn 45 - 55 Wrastor - Not that unbalanced because of Zetterburn being able to kill with fire very early because of Wrastor weight. Wrastor sideB is very problematic for Zetterburn and Wrastor in an air stream is dangerous.
Zetterburn 50 - 50 Forsburn - Fitting that I find one of the most balanced matchups right now to be between the two brothers. Forsburn can gimp Zetterburn without too much of a problem but if not careful with smoke and sideB will get Strong attacked pretty quickly.
Zetterburn 55 - 45 Kragg - A patient Kragg can win, but a more patient Zetterburn that knows his options and how to approach and when to fake out a Kragg will be able to get in and start a long combo because of Kragg's heavy weight. Kragg's rock destroys Zetterburns recovery to make up for it.

Wrastor 55 - 45 Forsburn - Forsburn UAir can keep Wrastor at bay from approaching from above, but differences in character speed make this matchup really difficult at times for Forsburn. Approaching blindly wont get much accomplished.
Wraster 60 - 40 Kragg - Kragg's upB getting the helpless state nerf makes recovering against Wrastor a whole new challenge. Recovering low is key, but Wrastor can just as quickly predict it and gimp Kragg's recovery in many ways.

Kragg 50 - 50 Forsburn - No cheese kills on either character. If either gets the other in the air above them its super easy to keep them there.


Favorable/Neutral/Unfavorable stages:
- Fire Capitol - Zetterburn, Wrastor, Kragg, Orcane, Forsburn
- Air Armada - Wrastor, Kragg, Forsburn, Orcane, Zetterburn
- Rock Wall - Orcane, Wrastor, Zetterburn, Kragg, Forsburn
- Merchant Port - Kragg, Forsburn, Orcane, Zetterburn, Wrastor

 

[Chuck Tatum]

Abuncha stuff

Zetterburn, are there match videos for the tournmanet? You should record them!

 

[RoA_Zam]

Zetterburn, are there match videos for the tournmanet? You should record them!

My friend has winners finals, losers finals, and GF recorded. Waiting on him to upload

 

[Chuck Tatum]

Doing very well in my play group with Wrastor. Learning how to connect chained neutral airs in to kills with neutral-B and up-B has been very effective.

People complain that Wrastor has too much it stun on his combo's and they never get to act and that Wrastor's neutral B is too hard to escape and other stuff, recovery too good... etc...

It may just be people adjusting to the new stuff I have figured with Wrastor so I'll have to see if the trend continues but right now I have to admit I feel very confident versus Zetterburn at least while using Wrastor.

 

[CaptainCrisb]

Ugh, my controller broke sometime ago, haven't really been able to get a lot done with the March build, but my concern is that all of you guys have found everything, especially with your in depth analysis stuff XD oh well, I'll do my best I guess haha

 

[RoA_Zam]

Currently wrecking my play group with Wrastor. Learning how to connect chained neutral airs in to kills with neutral-B and up-B has been very effective.

People complain that Wrastor has too much it stun on his combo's and they never get to act and that Wrastor's neutral B is too hard to escape and other stuff, recovery too good... etc...

It may just be people adjusting to the new stuff I have figured with Wrastor so I'll have to see if the trend continues but right now I have to admit I feel very confident versus Zetterburn at least while using Wrastor.

If they complain about getting out of it then logically they should be trying to evade it and be more careful instead of rushing into a situation where you have every reason to use it.

For Zetter players, tell them to space sideB's in neutral to keep wrastor out. let wrastor hit you with the sideB (dont try to parry it or else wrastors next hit is guaranteed it you miss + combo start), and just parry his attack after the sideB starts (assuming wrastor sideB's while approaching with a nair, fair, or dash attack. Sometimes Dtilt keeps wrastor out but wrastor can act out of it pretty quickly.

for Wrastor's neutralB, tell them to fastfall after the last hit and try to get off a dair, neutralB, or swetspot uair on wrastor. Or a nair if you're close enough to the ground that it drags wrastor down, since you can immediately do a jab combo out of a nair with Zetterburn.

dair stuff (if you connect a hit) :
dair > nair > jab if low percent
dair > nair > utilt if low-mid percent
dair > utilt if low to ground and below about 70%
dair, uair sweetspot if higher percents
dair > neutralB any percent or height

Knowing how to use neutralB as zetterburn is really necessary for a matchup like this. NeutralB is an amazing combo move and kill move (fully charged for kill). if timed properly will trade with air stream dash attack. Can help zetter get out of combos where nair wouldnt. neutralB > neutralB > neutralB can often be a true combo if you read wrastor's DI and if they're at a low enough percent.

If you get a bair off, try to find an opening for a sliding uStrong or dStrong attack, or a nair into a fair, neutralB, or a Strong attack depending on DI and percents.

Playing against wrastor sucks on Air Armada and Merchant port in my personal opinion. Tell them to play more on rock wall and use platform heights to continue combos. Keep in mind that utilt doesnt reach above the platform while uStrong does. If wrastor is on the high platform above you, space a uair. if wrastor is on the middle platform, try a uStrong or wait for him to get to higher ground or lower ground.

That's some stuff i know of in the matchup that might help them out if you wanna show em stuffzers

 

[RoA_Zam]

Ugh, my controller broke sometime ago, haven't really been able to get a lot done with the March build, but my concern is that all of you guys have found everything, especially with your in depth analysis stuff XD oh well, I'll do my best I guess haha

There's nothing wrong with re-affirming things that have already been said if you find them agreeable. Or arguing against stuff. All feedback is useful.

 

[Chuck Tatum]

Tell your friend to post those match vids!

 

[CaptainCrisb]

"Now Zetterburn joins the battle!"

 

[RoA_Zam]

@ CaptainCrisb if you have a project psd of the zetterburn image you just made, think I could have it and use it for stuff?

 

[CaptainCrisb]

@ CaptainCrisb if you have a project psd of the zetterburn image you just made, think I could have it and use it for stuff?

As in a photoshop file? I actually didn't use photoshop on these (although I will be in the near future) but I do have the gimp files for them if you still want them

 

[steak4prez]

Brought the game to a local tournament qualifier. Didn't get many people to try the game out, most were focused on Smash, but the people who did try it out couldn't put it down!

I couldn't really get much feedback out of them (about 3-4 people really got into it) other than they were really excited about the game and were looking forward to it. I did have a lot of people asking questions about it, though, like what set it apart from Smash, platforms it would be released for, etc. Hope I can take the game to another event soon! There is a major Smash tournament coming to my area next month (which the qualifier was for), so I'll be talking with our local TO about getting the game there.

 

[RoA_Zam]

As in a photoshop file? I actually didn't use photoshop on these (although I will be in the near future) but I do have the gimp files for them if you still want them

gimp works. I use gimp but i always export to psd instead of xcf or whatever gimp uses.

 

[WheelerFGC]

"Now Zetterburn joins the battle!"

Ummmm, YES! That's an awesome picture.

 

[LeeYawshee]

@ LeeYawshee
Setting the stock to 99 is my "attract mode" for use in public places. I would have a button combo that started a match with 4 cpus and 99 stock. Won't be in the final game.

Also polar bears are sweet. Bears in general are sweet. Particularly bear cavalry.

-Dan

You and I will get along just fine, Dan.

 

[RoA_Zam]

@ CaptainCrisb Reason why I wanted the project file:

 

[LeeYawshee]

Yo! @ GatorFace and I made a fun little video. Give it a look and let us know what you think!

 

[Chuck Tatum]

I am not sure about Forsburn's down-B any more. I no longer think that it is underpowered (although I do think the whole smoke -> down-B system is kinda clunky and unintuitive.) but his recovery is just insanely bad. It feels like your opponent can just wait about 1/4 of the stage width away from the lip and do any edge guard they want for as long as they want. If you don't have a smoke cloud to reset your up-B you might as well just put the controller down and die... even at very low percentages.

 

[4nace]

Random Thought:

Based on the way hitboxes are currently scripted, Bubbles cannot be parried. How do players feel about that? Should they be able to be Parried?

-Dan

 

[Big Papi]

Random Thought:

Based on the way hitboxes are currently scripted, Bubbles cannot be parried. How do players feel about that? Should they be able to be Parried?

-Dan

Dang that's what I thought. As of now I think that's fine. Bubbles seem pretty easy to air dodge out of anyways.

 

[Chuck Tatum]

The picky player in me says that bubbles should be parryable because there's no real reason for them 'not' to be and mechanics should be 100% consistent.

But the game designer in me says... parrying bubbles would have basically no point, that invincibility off of bubble parries seems like it would be kinda... stupid, and that bubbles almost universally hit players in to and out of the air... so it doesn't really matter. Based on the fact that you're asking us... I bet there's some math/code you wrote a while ago that is going to make changing it a complete pain in the ass. It's probably not worth wading through that for such a minor thing.

I think it's fine if you can't parry them but maybe it should be made super clear, like if you 'successfully' parry a bubble a specific sound or animation plays that makes it very clear the bubble just broke your parry.

This isn't the type of thing you want players getting confused on.

 

[Yurya]

Random Thought:

Based on the way hitboxes are currently scripted, Bubbles cannot be parried. How do players feel about that? Should they be able to be Parried?

-Dan

I think this depends somewhat on the future of parries. If parries are going to be ineffective against other moves as well then it is perfectly fair. However, if only Orcane has this advantage it may turn out to being a factor that throws off the balance of the game. Combine this with how a parried Water Drop isn't very punishable either and it seems that only Orcane has true approaches that can't be stopped. Much like Spacie's shield pressure with a Shine JC Grab.

I'm fine with elements like this as long as it is universal. Otherwise the Orcane mains like me will have no Rival. I'm still for Grabs to be included and if Orcane's grab is his bubbles so be it.

 

[JCOnyx]

A universal grab mechanic will probably never become a thing, and tbh I'm completely fine with that. Although my previous post about certain moves becoming impossible to parry I still stand by. I'm too lazy to go find it again though lol

This also just makes me want to perfect land canceled Fair with Orcane even more, as this approach becomes an extremely versatile mixup.

 

[CaptainCrisb]

@ CaptainCrisb Reason why I wanted the project file:

Nice!

 

[4nace]

The picky player in me says that bubbles should be parryable because there's no real reason for them 'not' to be and mechanics should be 100% consistent.

But the game designer in me says... parrying bubbles would have basically no point, that invincibility off of bubble parries seems like it would be kinda... stupid, and that bubbles almost universally hit players in to and out of the air... so it doesn't really matter. Based on the fact that you're asking us... I bet there's some math/code you wrote a while ago that is going to make changing it a complete pain in the ***. It's probably not worth wading through that for such a minor thing.

I think it's fine if you can't parry them but maybe it should be made super clear, like if you 'successfully' parry a bubble a specific sound or animation plays that makes it very clear the bubble just broke your parry.

This isn't the type of thing you want players getting confused on.

Yeah bubbles are basically their own type of hitbox. Like the fire Zburn puts on the ground. It is not impossible to make it consistent in the least but would take a bit of work.

Right now no characters have unparry-able tools. Even char 6 who I was planning to give some "grabs" has that working differently than countering parries.

For consistency sake its probably worth making bubbles parry-able. They still wouldn't be easy to parry though (particularly from the ground)

-Dan

 

[Kasado-Bit]

Okay, so I went ahead and created a TvT account so I can make an entry for Rivals of Aether. I mean, if the cancelled Air Dash Online can make be on the site, I see no reason why this shouldn't. From the information we know about the game right now, what kind of tropes do you guys think should be put in?

 

[GatorFace]

Yo! I had some input on bubble parrying, and general glitches I found!

1. I think it'd be pretty neat to be able to parry bubbles! Especially since parrying Orcane's down b, stopping him, and getting those i-frames to run up to a vulnerable Orcane would be pretty sweet. Then again, I'm unsure if the i-frames last long enough to get through the onslaught of bubbles. Even without that though, as long as it's not a huge coding hassle to be able to parry bubbles, I don't see a reason why you shouldn't be able to.

2a. A minor glitch with Forsburn, that I'm sure people know about already. When he uses his neutral special and dies, he continues placing smoke in respawn. It would make more sense to either make it so he stops creating smoke and the transparent smoke becomes destructible OR make it so all of the potential smoke disappears all together! Why should he get a persistent stage advantage after dying? Especially one that you technically can't destroy until he's done placing the smoke.

2b. I think someone was talking about canceling Forsburn's neutral special by interrupting him in some way. I want to be able to agree, but I'm still unable to use him properly to make a clear decision; as his smoke still ups the CPU/lags the game by a ton.

and 3. I'm pretty sure no one's found this yet, though I could be wrong. If you have your clone out as Forsburn and pause the game, to unpause you have to press start twice! It even makes the unpause sound on the first press of start. Not a major problem, but very noticeable and strange.

Thank you for reading!

 

[Steel Banana]

So I was playing Kragg dittos with my friend the other day and I found 2 bugs.

One got recorded (kind of), but I don't remember how it happened... https://twitter.com/NebtuneFGC/status/589588626037612544

The other one I couldn't recreate but I remember how it happened. Kragg 1 was onstage and Kragg 2 was offstage to the right of the Earth stage. Kragg 1 threw a rock offstage while standing somewhat under the right platforms. Kragg 2 uses his sideSpecial to try to armor through the rock. He hits the rock from above (the rock was near the bottom right platform, possibly touching it) and the rock starts to vibrate under him as he takes constant damage and slowly rolls in the air sideways toward the left blastzone. He takes 1000%+ before slowly flying off the left side with the rock still attached to him. Basically, the rock never broke so he got stuck in sideSpecial while constantly taking hits, stopping his downward gravity.

 

[AbsoluteBlack]

It's super easy to kill yourself trying to break Kragg's pillar from above, btw. I repeatedly dair'd it as Forsburn and killed him.. only for a pillar to finish coming up, hit the dair, catch me, then break from the dair, sending me into freefall.

 

[Streetwize]

So I was playing Kragg dittos with my friend the other day and I found 2 bugs.

The other one I couldn't recreate but I remember how it happened. Kragg 1 was onstage and Kragg 2 was offstage to the right of the Earth stage. Kragg 1 threw a rock offstage while standing somewhat under the right platforms. Kragg 2 uses his sideSpecial to try to armor through the rock. He hits the rock from above (the rock was near the bottom right platform, possibly touching it) and the rock starts to vibrate under him as he takes constant damage and slowly rolls in the air sideways toward the left blastzone. He takes 1000%+ before slowly flying off the left side with the rock still attached to him. Basically, the rock never broke so he got stuck in sideSpecial while constantly taking hits, stopping his downward gravity.

Featuring this insane glitch I found while live streaming Friday with Kragg that caused my % to go from 77 to 274 in about 2 seconds:
http://www.twitch.tv/forsburn/c/6529834

There's video proof. No need to worry.

 

[Chuck Tatum]

Zetterburn, did your friend upload those match videos?

 

[Sol_Vent]

DJCs you say? We have one more air based character coming. Sounds like something that could be a good fit no?
-Dan

P. L. S. I need.

Also, as someone who doesn't have the most recent build, a question occured to me recently. The changelist says that Wrastor's dash attack has conditional cooldown depending on whether you're in the air or on the ground. But what if you fall off of one platform and onto another one before the move ends? Would that use the "air" or "ground" cooldown?

 

[RoA_Zam]

P. L. S. I need.

Also, as someone who doesn't have the most recent build, a question occured to me recently. The changelist says that Wrastor's dash attack has conditional cooldown depending on whether you're in the air or on the ground. But what if you fall off of one platform and onto another one before the move ends? Would that use the "air" or "ground" cooldown?

Air. Cool down ends before you can even his another platform anyways.

 

[Placebo Effect]

Hey everyone. I just got the March build, but was curious if anyone knows if the next one will have support for more ways to use Gamecube controllers?
I'll just buy a Mayflash original adapter if not, it's no big deal, just curious. I'm guessing the Mayflash Wii U one doesn't work like regular Wii U adapters, but if that's wrong please let me know. I can't wait to try this game with a controller I'm used to for games like this.

 

[Chuck Tatum]

Personally I hope you don't do double jump cancel. It's an arbitrary technical barrier that will just be something most non-hardcore players won't even know about let alone use effectively.

 

[KrozoMagnus]

As a lucas, ness, and yoshi lover. Double-jump-cancels would be very cool.

 

[noahk777]

Please make this come to Wii U/3DS. I mean, it would be weird not having it with Nintendo, and I prefer console gaming to PC but I don't have an XBone.