Reflection on Smash and Competition

[MrPhox]

I was one of those players who put a lot of time into smash and became pretty decent. When brawl came out it supplanted melee. So what little local scene for melee was washed away mostly due to brawl's new popularity.

After toiling and struggling in that game for years I finally gave up smash altogether. The people didn't force me out with hate or anything like that. I had just realized that I dedicated so much time to a game that was DESIGNED to have a low ceiling for skill. Your efforts end up yielding greatly diminished rewards.

It's like somebody who's been practicing dice rolling. You don't get BETTER at it, you're just gambling.

I believe scenes are driven by their hardcore center. If the core of a scene is not interesting, then everybody outside that core is going to be THAT much more boring.

I don't just play smash to be social. I want a medium that can fully display my own personal brilliance if I put the time in to develop that kind of articulation. The fight is an expression, but how well can you express yourself when you're only allowed to use the vocabulary of a child?

I imagine brawl will be mostly forgotten and replaced by Smash 4. The only lingering scene of hardcore players will most likely be playing the Project M variant. A testament to quality versus popularity.

I played MANY hours of brawl, and have to admit that I enjoyed myself. So all of you out there who wish to take offense when simple truths are spoken can ignore this and not respond. This isn't intended as flame bait. We can embrace all the people who love smash, but recognize that different people have different purposes.

Perhaps it is the competitive types who've got it all wrong for taking Smash bros seriously in the first place.

I'm excited for Smash 4's release, I've been playing the demo plenty. I know that it isn't street fighter, but I already have a fightstick 3rd strike and SF4. I don't find myself being the wandering challenger going out of my way to find a good battle. Mostly the people around me (friends) are terrible at street fighter because it's so complex and strict. Smash will give me a taste of competition but I'll try not to get carried away this time.

I imagine a young kid picking up brawl as his first entry, getting into the game, starting to turn off the items and have some one-on-ones. They love the game, they enjoy the community, so they become competitive.
How long before the realization that the game was intended to combat his competitive nature? The very fact that a player is pushing for higher mastery is the reason they put things like tripping into the game. If you beat your friends too badly they won't want to play, that's not great for social gatherings or sales.

Our egos are comforted by mario party-like dice rolls that essentially turn the experience into a group gambling session. The uncertainty keeps the lesser dedicated players interested.

If people weren't so averse to harsh competition they may find that a lot of personal growth comes from the challenge. Smash with items on is a distraction, not competition. I'd rather do a number of things like have a good conversation, instead of casual smash.

Hardcore competition is a beautiful thing. It is a graceful dance. To read and respond to your opponent in milli-seconds is a fast and dense discourse, where no lies can be told. Everything you are is on the table.

I want to get to know you through fighting you, I don't want a cloud of random items to obscure that interaction.

So in order to comfort the less competitive, we stunt the depth of communication. Feels like communism in game form.

It is a more fuller expression of self to give everything you have in a system that doesn't hold you back.

Picture having a jam session. On one hand you can use a piano or a guitar. On the other, you're both equipped with kazoos. The kazoos are great for children, or anybody without a developed musical voice. Yet we seem to outgrow them if we really love music.

 

[Accelerator]

I imagine brawl will be mostly forgotten and replaced by Smash 4. The only lingering scene of hardcore players will most likely be playing the Project M variant. A testament to quality versus popularity.

For most casuals, this is the reality. What exist for them is only the newest game. Only truly phenomenal games continue to have thriving communities while successors of the franchise continue to come out.

This is what I don't like about Sakurai's style. He caters to the casuals, but doesn't realize that those games will be long forgotten once a new game from the franchise comes out.

Casuals will never play Brawl again with Sm4sh out now. People will always be up for some 64 and Melee, though. Maybe even Sm4sh when Smash5 comes out depending on out Sm4sh turns out in the long run.

 

[Renegand]

I think a good amount of people will still be playing Brawl, a good amount of casuals that is, because of ALL the people I know who play Project M alot, maybe one single person will get a Wii U, alot of people I know do not care for the Wii U

 

[SmashBro99]

He caters to the casuals because that's what sells, tournyfags are the minority. It's just hard to tell because here on this forum it's pretty split.

People seem to forget that Smash isn't made to be competitive, see For Glory mode if you think otherwise, that was Sakurai's attempt to please the competitive people, not bad but could have been better.

Smash Bros is a casual party game, the community is what will make a game competitive or not.

Here's the finished project, see what you can do with it, understanding this won't be Melee v2 or Brawl v2, it's a new game so treat it as such.

 

[Renegand]

He even specifically said all the originals have been remade from the ground up, so it should really be treated as new

 

[WhiteCane]

Can't really say anything about not playing brawl when people had to mod the game to make it fun for them, hardcore players ditched brawl first.

The rest is nice cool story bro.

 

[SmashBro99]

Brawl never stood a chance, with tripping and not being a completely broken game.

 

[KaZe_DaRKWIND]

I had just realized that I dedicated so much time to a game that was DESIGNED to have a low ceiling for skill. Your efforts end up yielding greatly diminished rewards.

It's like somebody who's been practicing dice rolling. You don't get BETTER at it, you're just gambling.

I believe scenes are driven by their hardcore center. If the core of a scene is not interesting, then everybody outside that core is going to be THAT much more boring.

Perhaps it is the competitive types who've got it all wrong for taking Smash bros seriously in the first place.

I imagine a young kid picking up brawl as his first entry, getting into the game, starting to turn off the items and have some one-on-ones. They love the game, they enjoy the community, so they become competitive.
How long before the realization that the game was intended to combat his competitive nature? The very fact that a player is pushing for higher mastery is the reason they put things like tripping into the game. If you beat your friends too badly they won't want to play, that's not great for social gatherings or sales.

I disagree with most of your post but I'll focus on these bits. I dont see how the game has a low skill ceiling. Is it because it doesn't have attack that take tons of input? And I really don't get how gambling comes into play.

If you play a game, play it for fun. If you're not having fun, what's the point?

Was gonna say more but then I got bored.

 

[MrPhox]

I think a good amount of people will still be playing Brawl, a good amount of casuals that is, because of ALL the people I know who play Project M alot, maybe one single person will get a Wii U, alot of people I know do not care for the Wii U

I bought a second Brawl copy because my first was so overused and scratched. Not because I wanted to play brawl anymore, but because I wanted to play Project M.

Smash Bros is a casual party game, the community is what will make a game competitive or not.

Casual competition to me is a let down. It's foreplay with no sex. It's just FLIRTING with the idea of competition.

I don't understand why people want to play "casual" competitive video games. There are plenty of real world casual games like Sorry, or Trouble the boardgames. They give space for communication and socializing.

If you like casual games, I mean you should be content with the next Barbie installment. Play a cooperative game or just go out DANCING. Why put money and time into a game that is trying not to be what people who LIKE it a lot WANT it to be.

 

[Ignoritus]

Casual competition to me is a let down. It's foreplay with no sex. It's just FLIRTING with the idea of competition.

The game isn't about you though. A lot of people like that genre and thus making it that is not a bad thing.

I don't understand why people want to play "casual" competitive video games. There are plenty of real world casual games like Sorry, or Trouble the boardgames. They give space for communication and socializing.

There are plenty of real world competitive games like Soccer/Football, Baseball and Tennis. They give space for communication and socializing.

If you like casual games, I mean you should be content with the next Barbie installment.

If you like competitive games, you should be content with just playing another fighter. Because evidently you think that all games of a genre are interchangeable regardless of content.

Play a cooperative game or just go out DANCING. Why put money and time into a game that is trying not to be what people who LIKE it a lot WANT it to be.

It is being what people who like it a lot want it to be. It's just not being what you want it to be.

 

[MrPhox]

I disagree with most of your post but I'll focus on these bits. I dont see how the game has a low skill ceiling. Is it because it doesn't have attack that take tons of input? And I really don't get how gambling comes into play.

If you play a game, play it for fun. If you're not having fun, what's the point?

Was gonna say more but then I got bored.

For me, fun IS a high level of competition, when you are lost in the moment through challenge.

The game has tripping, which is a random occurrence that has no premeditation on behalf of any of the players. Therefore it has nothing to do with intention or execution and thus is a distortion in the interaction of the fighters. Items is another example, items are unpredictable and can change the outcomes of matches due to probability. Level design is yet another aspect, often times with hazards that appear unpredictably.

Tripping hasn't made the game more fun. I've been in heated matches with close friends, only to have the results decided by a trip. Nothing undercuts the meaningfulness and intensity of competition like a random outside factor.

The beauty of video games over sports and other forms of competition is the level of control it gives players, thus offering them further foresight. Consider the game Chess, no random events take place, every decision is deliberate, and every punishment earned. It allows for deep level of play for those of us with minds that need that extra bit of challenge.

The game isn't about you though. A lot of people like that genre and thus making it that is not a bad thing.


There are plenty of real world competitive games like Soccer/Football, Baseball and Tennis. They give space for communication and socializing.


If you like competitive games, you should be content with just playing another fighter. Because evidently you think that all games of a genre are interchangeable regardless of content.


It is being what people who like it a lot want it to be. It's just not being what you want it to be.

I understand the game is not about me. It's about making money off of as many people as possible. So there is no noble intention for it as a casual game. The only reason casual is valuable is because majority of people are casual in everything they do. Consider popular culture in movies and music. Made to appeal to the widest audience possible, but in the process losing much of what makes art special.

I'm just writing my thoughts out here. I guess yours is that I should shut up and play a different game? I'm not JUST complaining. I think I have a core point about competition and what it means to some people.

The reason why Smash bros is the target of this idea is because of its history and my experience with it specifically. Gotta talk about what you know right?

 

[KaZe_DaRKWIND]

For me, fun IS a high level of competition, when you are lost in the moment through challenge.

The game has tripping, which is a random occurrence that has no premeditation on behalf of any of the players. Therefore it has nothing to do with intention or execution and thus is a distortion in the interaction of the fighters. Items is another example, items are unpredictable and can change the outcomes of matches due to probability. Level design is yet another aspect, often times with hazards that appear unpredictably.

Tripping hasn't made the game more fun. I've been in heated matches with close friends, only to have the results decided by a trip. Nothing undercuts the meaningfulness and intensity of competition like a random outside factor.

The beauty of video games over sports and other forms of competition is the level of control it gives players, thus offering them further foresight. Consider the game Chess, no random events take place, every decision is deliberate, and every punishment earned. It allows for deep level of play for those of us with minds that need that extra bit of challenge.

Tripping in this game isn't random. It's either caused by an item or a move.

 

[Ignoritus]

I understand the game is not about me. It's about making money off of as many people as possible. So there is no noble intention for it as a casual game.

If Sakurai's goals were to make as much money as possible we'd be looking at a totally different game. One where cash cow characters were added and not Duck Hunt.

The only reason casual is valuable is because majority of people are casual in everything they do. Consider popular culture in movies and music.

How in hell can a movie or song be casual? To be honest you just sound like you're trying to be a hipster.

Made to appeal to the widest audience possible, but in the process losing much of what makes art special.

This is an opinion. I'd argue the converse, that indeed Smash gains a lot of what makes it special by its casual appeal.
Most fighters are designed competitively, making Smash unique in that regard.

I'm just writing my thoughts out here. I guess yours is that I should shut up and play a different game? I'm not JUST complaining. I think I have a core point about competition and what it means to some people.

Your core point works on assumptions as to the reasons others do or do not like certain things as well as the assumption that your feelings on the matter are more valid.

"Our egos are comforted by mario party-like dice rolls that essentially turn the experience into a group gambling session. The uncertainty keeps the lesser dedicated players interested."

Assuming the motives of others. I like to play with items sometimes. It's because it's chaotic and fun, not because I feel better about having won.

If people weren't so averse to harsh competition they may find that a lot of personal growth comes from the challenge. Smash with items on is a distraction, not competition. I'd rather do a number of things like have a good conversation, instead of casual smash."

Once again referring to how you feel and assuming that everyone else either does or should feel the same way.

I want to get to know you through fighting you, I don't want a cloud of random items to obscure that interaction.

Your technique in this post is to just villainize anything you're against while glorifying what you're for. I could easily say that which items you go for and how you utilize them lets you get to know someone even better, while the varying skill levels of players disrupt that interaction by imbalancing the game.

 

[MrPhox]

If Sakurai's goals were to make as much money as possible we'd be looking at a totally different game. One where cash cow characters were added and not Duck Hunt.


How in hell can a movie or song be casual? To be honest you just sound like you're trying to be a hipster.


This is an opinion. I'd argue the converse, that indeed Smash gains a lot of what makes it special by its casual appeal.
Most fighters are designed competitively, making Smash unique in that regard.


Your core point works on assumptions as to the reasons others do or do not like certain things as well as the assumption that your feelings on the matter are more valid.



Assuming the motives of others. I like to play with items sometimes. It's because it's chaotic and fun, not because I feel better about having won.


Once again referring to how you feel and assuming that everyone else either does or should feel the same way.



Your technique in this post is to just villainize anything you're against while glorifying what you're for. I could easily say that which items you go for and how you utilize them lets you get to know someone even better, while the varying skill levels of players disrupt that interaction by imbalancing the game.

Sakurai is not Nintendo. Nintendo is a company that needs to make money. Everything they do is for that purpose. You think amiibos are made just because it improves video games?

The forces of the market affect what people produce for that marketplace. Take McDonalds for instance. The food they serve is extremely popular. They have served billions of meals. In order to maximize profits, they put lots of money into their public image, while reducing the costs of the business. The end result is genetically modified low quality unhealthy food that is super cheap and consumed by many. The meal itself is not the product of an artist or talented chef, they pay minimum wage to kids to throw these things together. But the commercials make those big macs look so GOOD don't they?

If anything you are trying to "villainize" me. I've just spoke how I feel about competition. That is all I have come here to speak about. It's not as if anybody in this world is capable of true objectivity. You assume your feelings are more valid. You come on here saying i'm trying to be a hipster? What does that even mean? Sounds like an insult, which is often used in place of an actual argument.

To engage with you anymore is just feeding a battle with no resolution. At least it bumps my thread though.

Ignoritus,

Oh, I just realized you're 17 years old. Do you work at McDonalds?

 

[Ignoritus]

Sakurai is not Nintendo. Nintendo is a company that needs to make money. Everything they do is for that purpose. You think amiibos are made just because it improves video games?

Sakurai is, however, the one directing the development of the game. If Nintendo aren't up his ass enough to tell him "add characters that will make sales" I don't think they're up his ass enough to tell him specifically how to develop the gameplay.

The forces of the market affect what people produce for that marketplace. Take McDonalds for instance.

This is irrelevant. Sakurai (and to an extent Nintendo themselves) has shown time and time again that he actually has a passion for creating a quality product beyond just what will make money. McDonald's does not have that history.

If anything you are trying to "villainize" me.

No, I simply think you're making what you believe to be a valid point off of some flawed points. However, since then you have started being rude to people as well as using blatant fallacies to support that argument.

You assume your feelings are more valid.

No I didn't. Quote or it didn't happen.

You come on here saying i'm trying to be a hipster? What does that even mean? Sounds like an insult, which is often used in place of an actual argument.

It's not an insult, more of a comment in response to your talking about "popular media".

Also considering you only responded to about half of my points you probably shouldn't talk about lacking an actual argument.

Oh, I just realized you're 17 years old. Do you work at McDonalds?

Sounds like an insult, which is often used in place of an actual argument.

 

[Tremendo Dude]

There's miscommunications on both sides here, really.

Ignoritus, your comment regarding MrPhox's comment about popular media is arguing semantics. Popular media often attempts to appeal to the largest group possible through advertisement and hype, or by offering it to people in the easiest way possible, such as through the radio. Consider a songwriter who makes a song with little effort, gives it to an established popular performer who records the song, and sends that song to the market under the performer's name. It'll be a new song, perhaps somewhat decent, but its value will be much less artistic than it is commercial. That is what MrPhox is arguing here regarding the direction that SSBB went.

SmashBro, your comment regarding Brawl being "not being a completely broken game" is laughable, especially when pairing it against Melee as your example. Melee was not perfect by any means, but there's plenty more polish in Melee than there is in Brawl. For all the glitches and exploits that Melee is said to have (of which many are not glitches or exploits at all), the ones in Melee tend to be negligible, while there are various in Brawl that are actually game-breaking.

MrPhox, I respect your passion for competitive gaming, but I have to disagree with your sentiments of the game being played casually as being worthless or watered down. The beauty of the Smash series is that the games are made in a way that can be played in many different ways. Playing the game with items on in crazy stages is by no means worthless to the masses, though most would laugh off a tournament or a test of skill played in such a way.

 

[RespawningJesus]

Not gonna lie, but you kinda sound like a cliche from some of the anime I watch. (The only way to truly know one another is by fighting, that sort of cliche.)

Anyways, the good news for you is that the next Smash game is more viable competitively. In fact, it strikes a perfect balance between casual play as well as competitive play. So you are bound to get your cup of tea with Smash 4. Sure, it isn't going to be Melee competitive, but then again, Sakurai never intended the Smash series to be that way to begin with. He just wants people to enjoy playing games, and he does it pretty well in my opinion. It just so happens that Brawl became something that favored the casual scene, just like how Melee favored the hardcore scene. So it is fitting that Smash 4 tries to appeal to both.

 

[Tremendo Dude]

As far as I could tell when I started playing Melee on release, the game appealed to me plenty as a casual player, as did Smash64. I think that's something that many people seem to forget sometimes. A competitive player can tell how deep a game can go, but a casual player tends to stay on the surface and enjoy it for what it is regardless. I believe that the best possible combination for smash is a low skill floor (easy to learn) and a high skill ceiling (deep and rewarding to master), which Sm4sh will hopefully bring to fruition.

 

[MrPhox]

Not gonna lie, but you kinda sound like a cliche from some of the anime I watch. (The only way to truly know one another is by fighting, that sort of cliche.)

Anyways, the good news for you is that the next Smash game is more viable competitively. In fact, it strikes a perfect balance between casual play as well as competitive play. So you are bound to get your cup of tea with Smash 4. Sure, it isn't going to be Melee competitive, but then again, Sakurai never intended the Smash series to be that way to begin with. He just wants people to enjoy playing games, and he does it pretty well in my opinion. It just so happens that Brawl became something that favored the casual scene, just like how Melee favored the hardcore scene. So it is fitting that Smash 4 tries to appeal to both.

I have enjoyed the demo, and I am excited for tonight's release. This could be a good balance for me where I'm at right now.

Yeah, I can see the anime relation, and that means some Japanese guys get me. lol

 

[MrPhox]

There's miscommunications on both sides here, really.

Ignoritus, your comment regarding MrPhox's comment about popular media is arguing semantics. Popular media often attempts to appeal to the largest group possible through advertisement and hype, or by offering it to people in the easiest way possible, such as through the radio. Consider a songwriter who makes a song with little effort, gives it to an established popular performer who records the song, and sends that song to the market under the performer's name. It'll be a new song, perhaps somewhat decent, but its value will be much less artistic than it is commercial. That is what MrPhox is arguing here regarding the direction that SSBB went.

SmashBro, your comment regarding Brawl being "not being a completely broken game" is laughable, especially when pairing it against Melee as your example. Melee was not perfect by any means, but there's plenty more polish in Melee than there is in Brawl. For all the glitches and exploits that Melee is said to have (of which many are not glitches or exploits at all), the ones in Melee tend to be negligible, while there are various in Brawl that are actually game-breaking.

MrPhox, I respect your passion for competitive gaming, but I have to disagree with your sentiments of the game being played casually as being worthless or watered down. The beauty of the Smash series is that the games are made in a way that can be played in many different ways. Playing the game with items on in crazy stages is by no means worthless to the masses, though most would laugh off a tournament or a test of skill played in such a way.

I appreciate your level-headedness. Perhaps I undervalue the casual nature of smash. At times I have enjoyed it but I can only speak for my personal values. How am I supposed to take into account everybody else's feelings. It's not like I can make some 'true' 'absolute' or 'objective' statement about smash. Nothing I say can take the fun away from all those who enjoy it.

When one voices his opinion, it's gonna offend SOMEBODY. I feel like we live in a time when voicing your own opinion is greeted by vultures who come to pick you apart for not having the most perfect universal view.

All I can say is that items and tripping water down what I like about smash.

 

[GrownCannoli]

I can't believe I read that wall of text. I will do anything to kill time for sm4sh to come out....

Since I read it I will say that I agree 100% that the small core of competitive people defines the scene around it.

If people want to admit it or not all the "casuals" want to be just like Hbox, Mango, M2K ect. I think Sakurai really missed out not making this game more competitive. It may sell a ton of units but I don't know if I see this game around 12 years from now let alone in EVO.

That being said I think this game is wayyyyy better than I expected it to be and I think people will play this game for a while especially with custom moves.

 

[MrPhox]

For some reason people think that when somebody opens their mouth that somehow they are speaking for everybody. You can feel differently without having to prove me wrong, because there is no wrong.

I can't speak for all of humanity, only myself. You are free to disagree with me, and I can respect that, but if your disagreement means that how I feel about smash is invalid, then you are missing the point.

Nobody can be universal, we are individuals.

I can't believe I read that wall of text. I will do anything to kill time for sm4sh to come out....

Since I read it I will say that I agree 100% that the small core of competitive people defines the scene around it.

If people want to admit it or not all the "casuals" want to be just like Hbox, Mango, M2K ect. I think Sakurai really missed out not making this game more competitive. It may sell a ton of units but I don't know if I see this game around 12 years from now let alone in EVO.

That being said I think this game is wayyyyy better than I expected it to be and I think people will play this game for a while especially with custom moves.

Yes, this game is a refreshing change after brawl. I'm excited about the custom moves too. That's the kind of stuff I've always liked in games. Customization allows for more unique expressions.

I figured that people are just hanging on the forums in anticipation for tonight. Figured I'd get a few more poor souls to waste their time on my thoughts. lol

 

[Tremendo Dude]

No one's universal, but it's nice to keep broader perspectives. Glad to see I accomplished something, in any case.

I think people often take offense to opinions because, through miscommunication, stating an opinion comes across as if you're stating a fact. There's a difference between saying "Fox is a bad character" and "I don't like using Fox". The first statement will get you torn in half.

That said, the new mechanics being brought in should hopefully add to the Smash library as opposed to replacing it. It truly looks like a completely new game.

 

[SmashBro99]

Casual competition to me is a let down. It's foreplay with no sex. It's just FLIRTING with the idea of competition.

I don't understand why people want to play "casual" competitive video games. There are plenty of real world casual games like Sorry, or Trouble the boardgames. They give space for communication and socializing.

If you like casual games, I mean you should be content with the next Barbie installment. Play a cooperative game or just go out DANCING. Why put money and time into a game that is trying not to be what people who LIKE it a lot WANT it to be.

I didn't realize your opinion is fact and what the game should be, my bad dawg.

rofl.

If you're thinking like that why don't you go play a real fighting game?

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

Tripping in this game isn't random. It's either caused by an item or a move.

Moves that cause tripping still have it as a random property. I know for a fact that Kirby's Dtilt only sometimes trips opponents.

 

[KaZe_DaRKWIND]

Moves that cause tripping still have it as a random property. I know for a fact that Kirby's Dtilt only sometimes trips opponents.

Doesn't it have to do with how much damage the opponent has?

 

[MrPhox]

I didn't realize your opinion is fact and what the game should be, my bad dawg.

rofl.

If you're thinking like that why don't you go play a real fighting game?

I've stated that it's my own feelings. Not fact.

I'll quote myself from above for you:

"For some reason people think that when somebody opens their mouth that somehow they are speaking for everybody. You can feel differently without having to prove me wrong, because there is no wrong.

I can't speak for all of humanity, only myself. You are free to disagree with me, and I can respect that, but if your disagreement means that how I feel about smash is invalid, then you are missing the point.

Nobody can be universal, we are individuals."

I didn't realize your opinion is fact and what the game should be, my bad dawg.

rofl.

If you're thinking like that why don't you go play a real fighting game?

Here is what you quoted from me, with emphasis added to get the point across:

"Casual competition TO ME is a let down. It's foreplay with no sex. It's just FLIRTING with the idea of competition.

I don't understand why people want to play "casual" competitive video games. There are plenty of real world casual games like Sorry, or Trouble the boardgames. They give space for communication and socializing."

Am I just arguing with 16 year olds?

I wonder if smashboards is the place for me anymore. I might have outgrown it. That or I have to learn not to feed the trolls. (Not everybody is consciously a troll, some of them are drunk on the hormone testosterone due to being a teenager, and looking to be combative.)

 

[Ignoritus]

Am I just arguing with 16 year olds?

Sounds like an insult, which is often used in place of an actual argument

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

Doesn't it have to do with how much damage the opponent has?

I haven't heard that anywhere. Maybe.

All I know is in Brawl certain moves (usually Dtilts) had a random % chance to trip opponents. However according to SSBWiki if a player is attacked with something that has a low angle and the target doesn't leave that ground, there is also a chance to trip. The "Sakurai Angle" is a trajectory that some moves possess where at lower levels of knockback, the opponent will stay on the ground whilst at higher levels of knockback, they will be launched. So in regards to that at least, I guess you could say that at lower damage %s tripping is more likely.

But anyway if you could link me to where you got that from, I'd love to read it. I actually never saw people really cover tripping as a mechanic in their analyses of Smash 4.

 

[MrPhox]

Someday you will understand that living longer on this planet comes with wisdom and knowledge. Then eventually you'll be so old you'll want to be young and stupid again, and it won't seem like such an insult.

I haven't heard that anywhere. Maybe.

All I know is in Brawl certain moves (usually Dtilts) had a random % chance to trip opponents. However according to SSBWiki if a player is attacked with something that has a low angle and the target doesn't leave that ground, there is also a chance to trip. The "Sakurai Angle" is a trajectory that some moves possess where at lower levels of knockback, the opponent will stay on the ground whilst at higher levels of knockback, they will be launched. So in regards to that at least, I guess you could say that at lower damage %s tripping is more likely.

But anyway if you could link me to where you got that from, I'd love to read it. I actually never saw people really cover tripping as a mechanic in their analyses of Smash 4.

I'm curious what items work for this. (Not including random spawning items, just items that characters can use like Link's bomb or Peaches turnips)

 

[Putuk]

Someday you will understand that living longer on this planet comes with wisdom and knowledge. Then eventually you'll be so old you'll want to be young and stupid again, and it won't seem like such an insult.

My, y'sure get pissy over vidyagaems.

 

[Ignoritus]

Someday you will understand that living longer on this planet comes with wisdom and knowledge. Then eventually you'll be so old you'll want to be young and stupid again, and it won't seem like such an insult.

~A very old and wise 27 year old.

 

[WaltzForVenus]

Perhaps it is the competitive types who've got it all wrong for taking Smash bros seriously in the first place.

i think i would fall under that category

 

[MrPhox]

~A very old and wise 27 year old.

yep, keep bumpin' muh thread.

 

[SmashBro99]

Am I just arguing with 16 year olds?

I wonder if smashboards is the place for me anymore. I might have outgrown it. That or I have to learn not to feed the trolls. (Not everybody is consciously a troll, some of them are drunk on the hormone testosterone due to being a teenager, and looking to be combative.)

I think you might fit in over at gamefaqs, it's a pretty neat place I hear :D

 

[MrPhox]

My, y'sure get pissy over vidyagaems.

And you are a paragon of positivity.

 

[KaZe_DaRKWIND]

I haven't heard that anywhere. Maybe.

All I know is in Brawl certain moves (usually Dtilts) had a random % chance to trip opponents. However according to SSBWiki if a player is attacked with something that has a low angle and the target doesn't leave that ground, there is also a chance to trip. The "Sakurai Angle" is a trajectory that some moves possess where at lower levels of knockback, the opponent will stay on the ground whilst at higher levels of knockback, they will be launched. So in regards to that at least, I guess you could say that at lower damage %s tripping is more likely.

But anyway if you could link me to where you got that from, I'd love to read it. I actually never saw people really cover tripping as a mechanic in their analyses of Smash 4.

Read it somewhere on the forums. No chance of finding it again. But either way I still don't think it's too big a deal.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

@ MrPhox , you have literally double and triple posted over 5 times and that is pretty inexcusable - especially when the TOA ont he site specifies not to double post. Double posting in the future will result in further infractions.

This thread is dangerously close to being locked if this "age judging" discussion continues. While wisdom does come with age, that is certainly not the rule and using that is a way to judge others ability to present an opinion is incredibly arrogant and does nothing for the current discussion (though I question if there really was a point of discussion for this thread). Smashboards does not condone this sort of behavior and it is toxic to the conversation so if this sort of discussion continues, the thread will be locked.

EDIT: That also goes with trying to instigate an argument with the OP. Remember to report anything that is against the Global Rules and a staff member will handle it from there.

Seriously.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

As far as I could tell when I started playing Melee on release, the game appealed to me plenty as a casual player, as did Smash64. I think that's something that many people seem to forget sometimes. A competitive player can tell how deep a game can go, but a casual player tends to stay on the surface and enjoy it for what it is regardless. I believe that the best possible combination for smash is a low skill floor (easy to learn) and a high skill ceiling (deep and rewarding to master), which Sm4sh will hopefully bring to fruition.

Why is it people continue to use this argument? Of course it appealed to you fine, there were no other options available and it was a huge upgrade from 64. We live in a different world now, many years in the future, this logic is not applicable.

 

[Tremendo Dude]

Why is it people continue to use this argument? Of course it appealed to you fine, there were no other options available and it was a huge upgrade from 64. We live in a different world now, many years in the future, this logic is not applicable.

I don't know about you, but if I were to raise a child right now from a very young age, I wouldn't give them unrestricted access to the internet at home until they reached a certain age. I grew up with Smash 64 and Melee without much access to the internet, entering the Brawl scene only around the time I came of age, and even then Brawl was the shiny at the peak. I knew of the Melee competitive scene and on some level wished I could join it, but things such as transportation and age prevented me from doing so. Even still, I did not notice the changes from Melee to Brawl (aside from the lack of ability to L-Cancel or Wavedash). I did not notice the game was flawed until I learned that Pikachu had a 0-80% chaingrab on Fox that was inescapable. Even knowing that I kept playing, not realizing how slow the game truly was until I started getting into Brawl+ and Project M.

I want you to consider players who are not entirely familiar with Smash, or who are just starting to get into the scene. As far as many of these players are concerned, Smash 4 is their only option. Why would you buy a Wii to play Brawl or Melee when you can buy a Wii U or 3DS and get in on the game with the latest shiniest release? I can assure you if I was a kid growing up and I didn't start with Melee or Brawl, I wouldn't consider buying the older Smash games unless there was a serious draw to it. Why would I?

That said, there really isn't much in the way of options for these players. The only reason someone would wish to get into the scene for an older Smash game is if they were previously acquainted with the franchise on a competitive level (or if they wanted to play through the Subspace Emissary or play Project M). Even for players who play casually, this is a bit of a no-brainer. The casual scene is moving to Smash 4. There really isn't much of a choice. Soon casual players will start saying Brawl is dated, just as they said Melee was dated back in the day.

Meanwhile, players who pride themselves on the mastery of the game will notice the true differences in gameplay between the titles in the Smash Bros franchise. There are plenty of people that accepted Melee as a sister game to Smash 64, not as its replacement. The players that learn the way the game's mechanics work to the point of mastery are the players most shell-shocked when those mechanics are completely changed in the next edition of the game. These are the people that have hopes and expectations for the next releases, in hopes that the flow of the game they have mastered can be revitalized. These people are rarely satisfied, and will often stick with their own games.

When these players start playing the new games, however, or when the casual players starting in the new game take the steps to become these kind of players, that's when the competitive community for the new game starts to shine. The deeper the game, the brighter the shine. It remains to be seen how bright Smash 4 will shine, but expect it to be relevant for longer than Brawl was. Regardless of how brightly it shines for the competitive audience, though, it'll appeal to the casual audience just fine. Just as Brawl appealed to them just fine before it. Just as Project M appeals to them just fine. Just as Melee appealed to them just fine before, except to those with preconceived notions about the game today.

Sorry for the wall of text, but I feel this logic is still plenty applicable.