Redesigning/Rebalancing Samus

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Aug 9, 2015
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Mini-Redesign/Rebalance Threads

:ultmario: Mario

:ultdk: Donkey Kong

:ultkirby: Kirby

:ultbrawler: Mii Brawler
This is a continuation of a thread of balance ideas I had for characters years ago in a series I liked to call "Balance Philosophy". I basically went though each character and tried to explain how to design them for a specific niche/purpose with set strengths and weaknesses. As that was for Smash 4 and this "wish list" is for Ultimate, I'm going to have to be a lot more vague on my ideas of buffs and nerfs, but I wanted to get this out there because Samus is one of those characters that has been at a losing streak in terms of viability lately, and I usually try to go after those types of characters first.

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Here I will list the specific niches I would think/want Samus to fulfill as a fighter as well as what I think/want her specific strengths and weaknesses should be. Note that these are what they should be should she be designed and balanced well, not what they are or will be, because I'm sure inevitably I will be off the mark, but this is a wish list, so I will go with what I want.

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Samus :ultsamus:

Purpose: Zoner/Edgeguarder/High aerial pressure/Hard to take stocks

Strengths should be:

High damage arsenal of projectiles
Great aerial zoning capability
High aerial maneuverability
Very high priority to get out of disadvantage

Weaknesses should be:

Low damage output in neutral
Mediocre combo potential
Low killing potential
Mediocre grab

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First some general stuff that I would want for her. Some of this will involve universal things among all characters.

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General Statistics: :ultsamus:

  • Above average weight
  • Average walk speed
  • Slightly below average run speed
  • Above average horizontal air speed
  • Standardized first jump
    • (All first jumps for all characters will be the same height: around 80% the height of the top platform in Battlefield)
  • Above average double jump height
    • (Baseline for double jump will be lower than it is now, but varied between characters: Samus will have a higher than average double jump after this is taken into account)
  • Above average horizontal air speed
  • Below average fall speed
  • Wall Jump (All characters will be able to wall jump, but not all can wall cling)
  • High roll distance
    • (All characters will have the same frame data on rolls, with the only real variance between them being distance. The frame data would be lower than it is currently for Samus in Smash 4)
  • Average shield health
    • (Shield health would now differ between characters, with the baseline being 100 shield health. Samus would have 100)
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So this seems a bit superfluous and weird, but something I learned throughout the years of studying game design is that to truly make a game balanced, or at least not have broken characters, is to give all of your characters a set baseline of defensive options with little variance. The jump height of the first jump would be standard through all characters, meaning all characters are now able to navigate platforms equally, barring air speed differentiation. Also, I feel giving all characters wall jumps was a given too, since it can be very useful and simply adds an option to a player's ability to move around. In addition, rolls, as well as other dodges, would definitely have a set frame data universal to everyone, which means the variance will only be distance. This means no matter the character, a roll is a roll is a roll. If something is countered by a roll with one character based on high invincibility window, chances are it will be countered by everyone's roll. And even with the distance variation, I would put a limit on it. If Mario's roll is 100%, then the shortest roll could not be below 80% and the highest couldn't be above 120%. We give this slight variation to have some rolls be more useful without any not being able to function as a roll like it would for any other character. I would definitely have Samus's roll be at the top, but now you know why I did this.

To go to the double jump height, her double jump height currently in 4 probably is what I would consider above average after I would nerf the double jumps. But why would I buff almost all single jumps but nerf most double jumps? The idea is that just like airdodging, jumping is a great way to dodge out of a disadvantageous position. By having them be shorter, the ability to simply jump out of trouble is more limited, since the enemy can chase in equal measure or even more if they hit the ground and jump again due to the higher single jump. On top of this, it leaves edgeguarding even more in favor of the person in advantage, since they have a much easier time catching jumps as well as harder for people offstage since their one jump is worse. We would still have ledge trumping, so it wouldn't be hopeless, but definitely harder.

So knowing all of this, why would I give Samus a higher than average double jump? Two reasons: firstly, it plays to her airfighter motif I think she should build off of and second, it gives her a way out of disadvantage that most characters wouldn't have, along with her high roll distance.

Can't believe I explained all of these ideas when I already know people aren't interested in them just to make a point of Samus having better disdvantage state and air game than average with these ideas lol. Onto the moves.

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:GCA::GCA::GCA:Jab:

  • New sequence: A punch, followed by an overhead with the gun, followed by a quick power beam shot to the ground similar to DTilt.
    • This means there is a third hit added to jab
  • Jab 1 and 2 would link into each other; Jab 2 and 3 would not
    • Jab 3 however, can be comboed into Jab 2 on an airborne opponent
    • Jab 3 can also be delayed
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Jab 1: 1.8%
    • Jab 2: 4.6%
    • Jab 3: 5.2%
    • Total: 11.6%
  • Knockback for Jab 3 would be angled to leave the enemy right above Samus by default
    • Jab 3 base knockback low in order to lead into aerial combos at up to mid percents
  • Jab 3 can kill around 140%
  • Jab 1 and 2 are safe on shield; Jab 3 is not
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This adds a new part of Jab. A much more specific yet very useful combo starter option. On top of this, if maybe a low distance throw is done, it can combo all the way through, giving Samus a good quick combo starter. However, by default, the third hit that starts combos does not link into the second jab hit, but since it can be delayed as well as cancelled, it can still lead to some good mindgame ability.

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:GCA::GCR:FTilt:

  • Long range sweeping kick. Can be aimed up and down. Has sweetspot and sourspot.
    • Sweetspot is thigh of leg and body
    • Sourspot is foot
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Body sweetspot: 8.5%
    • Leg sweetspot: 9.5%
    • Sourspot: 6.5%
  • Sweetspots will have a chance to trip the opponent, sourspot will not
  • Regardless of where move hits, enemy will be knocked back a set distance in front of Samus
    • Distance will equal about one Samus roll away
  • Sourspot is safe on shield, sweetspots are not
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The idea of this move is basically the get off me move/tech chasing option, as well as a niche shield pressure option as well as a followup for the aforementioned Jab 2 since it's now useful on shield. Note that the sourspot on the foot is safe but the sweetspots on the body and thigh aren't. This emphasizes Samus's need for zoning as well as her lacking shield pressure when up close, though not none, obviously.

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:GCA::GCU:UTilt:

  • Slow axe kick. Has two sourspots on the leg and body and two types of sweetspots on the foot
    • Later sweetspot can meteor smash
      • Has the ability to meteor smash both aerial and grounded opponents
  • Relatively slow startup
  • Very quick endlag
  • Sourspots are not safe on shield, sweetspots barely are
  • Earlier sweetspot knockback goes upwards at 20 degrees
  • Deals above average shield damage
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Sourspots: 10.0%
    • Early sweetspot: 13.5%
    • Late sweetspot: 11.2%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Sourspots: 185%
    • Early sweetspot: 170%
    • Late sweetspot: 85%

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Since edgeguarding is the game here, I would want her heel to be able to meteor smash regardless of the enemy being grounded or airborne. Unlike Captain Falcon's, it would be slower, but considering all of her edgeguarding potential, I think a nice meteor smash threat on the ledge is a nice option to have, considering nothing else does that in her kit.

The only real changes I made besides the meteor smash were adding a sourspot that is unsafe on shield, more shield damage overall, and lowering the damage a smidge.

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:GCA::GCD:DTilt:

  • New move: Will now shoot an ice missile diagonally downward very quickly in front of her; this is now a projectile.
    • This means at the edge, she can shoot the projectile diagonally downward. Will home in slightly and is slightly slower than Homing Missiles
    • Under normal circumstances on the ground, will work much like the current DTilt or new Jab 3 with the explosion happening in front of Samus
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Blast: 8.2%
  • The explosion will freeze enemies and send them upwards
  • DTilt can kill at around 150%
  • DTilt is safe on shield but has high endlag
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Another totally good idea don't you think? Now fitting with her edgeguarding aim, Samus can now send projectiles downward off the stage that aren't just bombs. It's also super quick, making it a pretty good out of shield option to quickly freeze opponents upward and rack up damage on their frozen body before maybe getting a read in on thawing out. It works towards her aerial fighter motif as well as her edgeguarding motif as well as her being good at disadvantage all at once. As a disadvantage it is not spammable and can be punished on whiff, but is still safe on shield, but just barely, as all DTilts should be. (That's another one of my universal rule deals)

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:GCR::GCR::GCA:Dash Attack:

  • Full body tackle. Has two sourspots at the beginning and tail end of the move and a sweetspot in the middle. During the hitbox, Samus will become immune to projectiles
    • (This projectile immunity would be an added property for all dash attacks)
  • Knockback would be upwards behind Samus at around 25 degrees
  • Would not have a dead zone at the beginning of the move
  • Deals above average shield damage, with the sweetspot dealing the most
  • Highly unsafe on shield
  • High priority
  • Relatively fast startup, but high endlag
  • Goes a fair distance forward, around 1.25x the distance of Samus' roll
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Beginning sourspot: 6.2%
    • Sweetspot: 11.4%
    • Ending sourspot: 8.8%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Sourspots: 200%
    • Sweetspot: 150%

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Another universal change I would want to make absolutely SURE camping can be dealt with by all characters is for their usually niche dash attacks to have an extra niche: projectile immunity. Anything that isn't a transcendent projectile like Din's Fire or PK Flash will be ignored completely, but not destroyed. This leaves traps to still be pretty strong while still affecting more fast projectiles like Laser, Needles, and slingshots from Villager.

Besides that, I think the move having a slight dead zone where no hitbox happens is both clunky, and it buffs the projectile piercing capability by allowing Samus to do it on reaction. The move is still unsafe on shield, but it would have high priority and do respectable shield damage, giving it more niche uses against attacks and quick shield breaking for Samus after her barrage of projectile moves.

When dash attack does hit, it will still allow for combos in the air like it currently does in Smash 4. And considering aerial fighter is a strength I laid out, this seems only appropriate.

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:GCCR: FSmash:

  • New move: A quick Wave Beam shot from the Metroid games. Fully charging it turns it into a slow guided orb shot forward.
    • Both types of shots will pierce through walls and shields
      • This means they will deal no shield damage, but will instead deal regular damage through shield without knocking back
    • Has only one hitbox, the shot itself
    • Samus will reel herself back slightly to charge the shot
  • Knockback will be at the Sakurai angle
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Wave Beam: 7%
    • Wave Beam after piercing a wall or a shield: 5%
    • Wave Beam Orb (even when piercing shield or walls): 12%
  • FSmash can kill at around 145% uncharged and 110% fully charged
  • FSmash can be angled
  • FSmash uncharged has no projectile priority a la Din's Fire and will ignore other projectiles
  • FSmash has high startup but rather low endlag
  • FSmash is unsafe on shield

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So I had this bright idea of having Samus's smash attacks based on her Metroid Prime beams. However, I wanted to reference the older games too, so the Wave Beam shot here can actually pierce through walls and be angled, making it a really unique type of zoning option where shielding still leaves the opponent with damage. However, it is reduced damage when piercing a wall and shield so as to not be too crazy. It also, when fully charged, changes behavior, and with the increase of full charge time in Smash Ultimate, this can be very useful. You'll see this motif in all of the new smash attacks I have here.

In terms of concept overall, I love more references to her games' weaponry, but how about how it fits into her kit? Well it is a projectile, so we got the "high arsenal of projectiles" down, but it's also an anti-zoner and anti-shield weapon, giving her a unique niche in that she can deal with approachers as well as other walling projectile users like Young Link. And if you wish to fullly charge it, you are greated with a slow homing projectile you can use to approach with, considering the endlag on the move is low. The startup is high so as to not be too spammable back to back, but the endlag is low so that you can work with other projectiles as well as the aforementioned approaching use. It's also unsafe on shield and doesn't kill very easily, going to the low killing power thing again.

If I were in charge of designing Samus, I would have given her this in a heartbeat. I think it's one of my more creative ideas on here.

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:GCCU:USmash:

  • New move: A fan of 5 short range Plasma Beam shots upwards with Samus kneeling down to shoot. Fully charging it will cause her to fan a short flamethrower with more range.
    • Has two hitboxes on each shot, the sweetspot near the nozzle of the gun and the sourspot being the rest of the beam shot
    • The flamethrower has two hitboxes as well, still being the nozzle as the sweetspot and the sourspot being the rest of the beam
      • The sweetspots will comfortably combo into each other, while the sourspots will knockback the enemy upwards without comboing
  • USmash should be able to catch opponents pretty much touching Samus on her sides when firing
  • USmash will have high shield damage but be unsafe on shield
  • USmash will have low startup and slightly high endlag
  • Knockback for the sweetspot will be at a 35 degree angle upwards
    • Sourspot knockback will be dependent on the direction of the beam shot
  • Approximate kill times
    • Uncharged sweetspot: 125%
    • Charged sweetspot: 100%
    • Uncharged sourspot: 150%
    • Charged sourspot: 135%
  • Approximate damage numbers
    • Uncharged sweetspot: 1.9%*4/6%
      • Total: 14.2%
    • Charged sweetspot: 1.9%*10
      • Total: 19%
    • Uncharged sourspot: 4.5%
    • Charged sourspot: 6.5%

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And here we have Plasma Beam. Though the move functions basically the same but without blindspots on the side, more range, and more damage. However, it isn't a good ground option still due to being unsafe on shield, though it has high shield damage just in case you might need it. And when fully charged, the hitbox stays out for a bit longer due to the flamethrower dissipating in the air, all the while the hitbox still being active, which makes it good against air dodges and general makes this a more varied anti-air move I think. Plus, she actually references the games she's in. Waow!

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:GCCD:DSmash:

  • New move: An Ice Beam shot towards the ground on both sides of Samus in quick succession. Fully charging it will cause it to last longer and stun enemies in place.
    • Has two sweetspots and two sourspots in both forms.
      • Sweetspots are during the blast, and sourspots are the lingering hitboxes.
  • Uncharged DSmash will not freeze and will instead knockback at a Sakurai angle
    • Sourspot will do very low knockback sideways
  • Fully charged DSmash will freeze for around half a second
  • DSmash will be have low startup and high endlag to help against rolls
  • DSmash will be unsafe on shield except when fully charged
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Uncharged sweetspot: 130%
    • Uncharged sourspot: 999%
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Uncharged sweetspot: 10.6%
    • Uncharged sourspot: 4.0%
    • Charged sweetspot: 13.0%
    • Charged sourspot: 4.5%

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More reminiscent of Samus' old down smash, except this time with the twist of having Ice Beam involved. Like the other two smash attacks I came up with, it has an added effect at full charge where it will freeze the opponent in place. This works more like ZSS' Down Smash rather than a Blizzie in that they will stay in place, opening a followup that Samus might not be able to get in neutral. This power on her down smash while also being super unsafe on shield makes it an amazing ledgeguarding option for the opponent to worry about, especially considering if they get frozen while on the ledge, they will descend slowly, opening themselves for a followup in this scenario.

But again, following Samus' lackluster neutral close range, it is unsafe on shield despite having very low startup. But uncharged, this still knocks enemies back with the Sakurai angle, and because it is very fast starting up, it can help against people trying to crossup Samus, again playing to the strength of having good defensive options.

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:GCX::GCA:NAir:

  • A quick horizontal spinning kick. Has two hitboxes that don't link into each other.
  • Would have insanely low landing lag
  • Would be barely safe on shield and have very little shield damage
  • Startup is quite fast
  • Endlag is minimal
  • Knockback would be at a sideways angle of around 80 degrees
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Frontal kick: 5.5%
    • Back kick: 5.0%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Frontal kick: 160%
    • Back kick: 140%

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A pretty boring move all things considered, especially when I've tied an identity of "airfighter" to this wish list for Samus. Not much changed from Smash 4 except it doesn't have a late hitbox and it's not a good kill move. However, it is safe on shield and has low landing lag, making it a good tool in neutral fighting. On top of that, it has a nice sideways knockback direction, making it good to followup on with more zoning stage control, or at low percents, potentially a FAir. To compensate for these god all-around buffs, I decided to nerf its damage considerably, fitting with the "low damage in neutral" for Samus.

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:GCX::GCR::GCA:FAir:

  • A short arcing multishot from her arm cannon in front of her. Last explosion will deal the main knockback while the first four hits will combo into each other and create a slight vacuum to minimize SDI ability for the enemy
  • Samus will slow her descent for a bit for the first two times using this in midair
  • The explosions would be much bigger than Smash 4; about 50% bigger
  • Has average startup
  • Has high endlag
  • Has high landing lag
  • Knockback angle would be around 40 degrees
  • Would be deal a lot of shieldstun and average shield damage, but would be unsafe on shield if landing before the last FAF
    • Would be safe on shield otherwise
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Explosions: 2.8%*5
    • Total: 14.0%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Final explosion: 120%

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So this would be another "aerial zoning" move for Samus, especially considering the explosions would be immune to SDI and they would be bigger. Plus, she slows her descent slightly when using it for the first two times, giving it a nice walling aspect for edgeguarding. However, it is stillrather lackluster in neutral due to high landing lag, but it can do shield pressure if short hopped correctly so the FAF comes before landing. In addition, compared to her other aerials, its kill potential is pretty high and its damage is pretty good too.

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:GCX::GCL::GCA:BAir:

  • A backwards kick. Has a sweetspot on the foot and a sourspot on the leg along with a late sourspot on both
  • Has very little startup, but has above average endlag
  • Landing lag is quite low
  • Is not safe on shield and deals below average shield damage
  • Knockback angle is pretty high at 45 degrees
    • Late sourspot knockback is more towards the side at 80 degrees
  • Has a higher than average hitstun on both sweetspot and sourspots
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Foot: 13.0%
    • Leg: 10.2%
    • Late sourspot: 5.4%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Foot: 115%
    • Leg: 140%
    • Late sourspot: 195%

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Her aerial that can be used either as a spacing tool in neutral, or as a wall of pain if using the late sourspots to your advantage. To make sure this duality is useful, it has higher than average hitstun when hitting even sourspots. The kill time is much worse than in Smash 4 and the damage is lower to compensate for the versatility. And while it can be spammed at a fair distance for spacing, if hitting a shield, it will not be safe, so try using NAir instead for shield pressure instead.

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:GCX::GCU::GCA:UAir:

  • Upward corkscrew kick. Multiple hits that does mild knockback on the final hit
  • All hits before the final one should auto-lock the opponent, making the enemy trajectory the same as Samus for their duration
    • This allows her to drag them downwards via fast fall
  • Has very low endlag
  • Has very low startup
  • Has below average landing lag
  • Is only slightly safe on shield, but deals no shield damage
  • Knockback angle is high at around 25 degrees
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Hit 1: 3.3%
    • Hits 2-5: 1.1%
    • Hit 6: 3.0%
    • Total: 10.7%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Final hit: 225%

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My favorite aerial of Samus's. My biggest wish is for it to sort of do an "autolock", making the enemy match Samus's trajectory to a tee, giving it the ability to drag enemies downwards for more combo potential. However, I don't think it would have too much hitstun advantage to just combo infinitely from the ground, since it has some landing lag. It also is safe on shield, making it a good landing option. However, it now doesn't even come close to killing really and deals less damage, making it more of a combo tool than anything. Though it should still be able to combo into itself at medium percentages into Screw Attack I think.

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:GCX::GCD::GCA:DAir:

  • Arm cannon hit arcing downwards. Has a sweetspot in the middle of the animation, and two sourspots at the beginning and end
    • Sweetspot can meteor smash
    • Sourspots will knockback at an upward angle of around 60 degrees
  • Sweetspot deals high shield damage and shield stun, while sourspots will deal very little
  • Average landing lag
  • Not safe on shield unless hitting the sweetspot
  • Fairly high startup
  • Average endlag
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • First sourspot: 10.2%
    • Sweetspot: 13.7%
    • Second sourspot: 9.5%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Sourspots: 130%
    • Sweetspot (Offstage): 60%
    • Sweetspot (On stage): 100%

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The usual meteor smash. Honestly, I like this move already, so I didn't change much about it. You may notice that almost all of Samus' aerials are very multipurpose and do different things depending on where they are hit. Combine this with her high airspeed and floaty nature, and you can see how she could be a good aerial fighting archetype. Or at least, I hope that came across.

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:GCB:Neutral-B:

  • New move: Power Beam: Samus will shoot balls of energy in front of her at high speeds and in rapid succession. Can be charged up for about a second to make a stronger blast, or can be stored by shielding.
    • Can also shoot and charge in midair
    • Can also jump and double jump while in shooting animation on the ground
      • Because of this, you cannot cancel the charging with jump
  • Power Beam is highly unsafe on shield and deals almost no shield damage both charged and uncharged
  • Power Beam has slight startup and average endlag
  • Power Beam Charge shot takes around a second to fully charge
  • Shoots at a maximum rate of about 2.5 shots per second when rapid firing
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Regular shot: 1.2%
    • <20% charged shot: 3.1%
    • 21%-50% charged shot: 6.6%
    • 51%-99% charged shot: 10.0%
    • Maximum charge: 15.8%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Regular shot: 999%
    • <20% charged shot: 200%
    • 21%-50% charged shot: 160%
    • 51%-99% charged shot: 110%
    • Maximum charge: 85%
  • Power Beam can cancel into Side-B while charging

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Here's the last beam out of the four from Metroid Prime, and unlike Charge Shot, the Power Beam special move works as a sort of multipurpose projectile. First off, it is rapid fire by default, making it more like the games already, but it also charges very quickly, making it a much better move to charge up and set up with.

But the real fun begins when you see that Samus can use it freely in midair and even jump while still shooting. This gives her more Mega Man esque pestering ability as well. However, the smaller shots do little damage and almost nothing to shields, and even the charged shots will do almost nothing to them. But you know where the enemy won't be able to shield? In the air! This is the first part of Samus' "aerial zoning" I mentioned in her strengths besides her FAir, giving her an immense amount of aerial pressure ability and forcing the enemy to shield on the ground.

Lastly, you may have noticed that this move is cancellable with Side-B, but only when charging. Why is that? Well...

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:GCL::GCB::GCR:Side-B:

  • New sequence: Missile: Will quickly shoot a homing missile in front of Samus. Using this while Power Beam is partially charged or fully charged will create a Super Missile that has different effects depending on the direction the control stick is placed before shooting it
    • Charged Side-B with control stick forward will create a Super Missile, traveling very fast without homing properties along with a heavy increase in damage, shield damage, and knockback
    • Charged Side-B with control stick backwards will create a Flamethrower, causing a very brief mid range line of fire dealing heavy shield damage and high damage over time on the opponent. Deals almost no knockback
    • Charged Side-B with control stick upwards will create a Wave Buster, causing a very fast homing laser that if an opponent gets hit by, will cause them to be stunned for a short period of time and be pulled towards Samus slightly. Deals low shield damage but quite high regular damage
    • Charged Side-B with control stick downwards will create an Ice Spreader, creating a slow missile similar in speed to the homing one that will eventually explode in a wide area and cause any hit enemies to freeze for a brief period of time, knocking them up in the air. Deals almost no damage, but has a high amount of knockback
  • Missile when charged is very safe on shield, while uncharged it is not
  • Has high startup and lower than average endlag
  • Can be used in midair with the same frame data and will slow Samus' descent
  • Uncharged Missiles can be aimed using the control stick similar to the charged modes in the four cardinal directions
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Homing Missile: 6.0%
    • Super Missile: 13.7%-21.7%
    • Flamethrower: 0.4%-1.3%*10
    • Flamethrower damage over time: 1.2%*8 over 4 seconds
      • Total Flamethrower damage: 15.6%-22.6%
    • Wave Buster: 13.0%-20.4%
    • Ice Spreader: 6.5%-9.8%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Homing Missile: 400%
    • Super Missile: 110%-70%
    • Flamethrower: 999%
    • Wave Buster: 999%
    • Ice Spreader: 85%-60%

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Definitely my craziest idea, and I'm sure many will scoff at the complexity as unfitting for Smash, but I think it still works since the controls to get each type of Super Missile has been done before with moves like Dedede Gordo Throw. Plus, you can only get the Super Missiles with a charge from the Power Beam, meaning it will only really be kept in mind after setting it up.

First off, the regular missiles can be aimed in certain directions, even midair, again increasing that aerial zoning ability for Samus. But when you finally get your charge up, you can choose to shoot it normally for a pretty fast bit of damage, or change it into one of four different shots, each with their own purpose.

Regular Super Missile is basically a juiced up Power Beam Charge shot with actual shield damage, more regular damage, and slightly easier kill potential. The downside is the startup is much higher. Flamethrower is basically like Charizard and Bowser's Neutral-B moves, except it is very brief and deals a damage over time similar to Lip's Stick for 4 seconds. It also eats through shields, making it a very surprising anti-approach tool, if a bit niche due to its shorter range. Wave Buster will probably be the go to of the four due to its utility of magnetizing the enemy to Samus as well as its homing ability combined with its speed, meaning unless the enemy is shielding or dodges it, they will probably be hit by a lot of damage and get setup on. However, it does pretty much nothing to shields. Lastly is Ice Spreader, which works more like a trap because of its slow speed and high kill potential and high area of effect. It will definitely cause people to back off in the fear of dying quickly or cause them to shield, which because of the missile being active for very long, can give Samus a good opportunity to grab the opponent. It deals pitiful damage for how much setup is required though, so it will probably be used very sparingly.

And if you remember, Power Beam can charge and jump, meaning cancelling charge into your Super Missile of choice can be done even from using Power Beam, making these moves even more accessible on the fly.

Again, this is my craziest idea, but I like the idea of Samus having a slew of projectile weaponry at her disposal in battle, as well as the synergy between this and my Power Beam idea.

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:GCU::GCB:Up-B:

  • Screw Attack: Will elevate Samus very quickly in the air, trapping anyone near her with her and damaging them.
  • Screw Attack on the ground will not send Samus into a helpless state
  • Screw Attack can now be aimed at left and right angles upwards at the maximum of around 40 degrees in either direction
  • Screw Attack should come out very fast and have super armor frames right before and during ascent
  • Screw Attack can kill around 150%
  • Screw Attack will knockback enemies upwards at around a 35 degree angle by default depending on what side the enemy is on
  • Screw Attack is not safe on shield
  • Screw Attack should always catch hit opponents and not push them back sideways
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Ascent hit: 2.0%
    • Screw: 0.6% * 10
    • Final hit: 2.5%
    • Total: 10.5%

-------------------------------------------------------

So first off, the angling and the lack of helplessness on the move while grounded makes it much better for starting aerial pressure as well as making it a better anti-air. On top of that, it now has super armor at the beginning of the move, making it another good out of shield option for Samus. The damage is a bit lower to compensate for these awesome options given to the player. Plus, even though it's a quick move towards advantage, due to the ease of DI'ing, it makes it hard to true combo off of, sticking with Samus's mediocre combo potential while still staying true to her good aerial pressure game. And if you remember the double jump changes I mentioned earlier, this means Samus can easily follow up on the opponent's jump should they choose to and actually use yet another Screw Attack off the ceiling.

-------------------------------------------------------

:GCD::GCB:Down-B:

  • New move: Morph Ball: Will turn into her famous Morph Ball form, allowing her to roll around for a brief time at her walking speed with a much smaller hurtbox. Can do different moves depending on the button pressed during it. After doing one of these moves, she will automatically exit Morph Ball shortly afterwards
    • Normal Attack Button: Will drop a Power Bomb, which will explode about 1.5 seconds after planting it, causing an explosion similar to the Smart Bomb
    • Special Button: Will drop a normal Morph Ball Bomb, which will behave how it does in Smash 4, allowing Samus to potentially Bomb Hop before she exits Morph Ball
    • Jump Button: Will jump a short distance up with Morph Ball Boost, causing damage. This can only be done once before hitting the ground, but will not count as a double jump
    • Down-B again will prematurely end the Morph Ball
  • Has very low startup and can act as a pseudo-dodge.
  • Morph Ball rolls around the same speed as Samus walking. She cannot dash in this state.
  • Morphing back to do another move has low endlag, but the cooldown to morph again right after is much higher
  • Power Bomb would deal significant shield damage and knockback
  • Morph Ball Bomb would deal high shield damage, but low shield stun
  • Morph Ball Boost would drag the enemy upwards with Samus
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Morph Ball Bomb contact: 4.0%
    • Morph Ball Bomb explosion: 5.5%
    • Power Bomb explosion: 1.9%*9
    • Power Bomb Total: 17.1%
    • Morph Ball Boost: 7.0%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Power Bomb: 90%
    • Morph Ball Boost: 165%

-------------------------------------------------------

Another crazy idea, and it involves once again diverging paths from one move. But again, I like the idea of Samus having a high arsenal of projectiles, and I think this is an intuitive way of doing it. First off, the Morph Ball state itself helps her be a bit defensive in disadvantage due to the ability to suddenly drop bombs and change her hurtbox. She will be slower and not be able to do other moves unless she cancels however.

But to the three subabilities, we have the usual Morph Ball Bomb we all know and love. I barely changed that one, and can even be accessed quickly by double pressing B, giving it the same utility as before. Power Bomb can be used as a zoning and trapping tool to make foes weary of certain areas, and because it deals high shield damage, most will be compelled to jump over it, which is where Samus would want them for her aerial game anyway.

Lastly, Morph Ball Boost is basically a third jump that can also help with combos on enemies. Imagine the new Screw Attack on the ground leading into two UAirs, then Morph Ball Boost, THEN another Screw Attack. This helps not only with ceiling kills, but also recovery, since Samus can use her first jump and still have this to work with, along with her Morph Ball Bomb hopping still being intact. And because it has a hitbox, it is potentially much safer, if more valuable.

-------------------------------------------------------

:GCZ:Grab and Pummel:

  • Tether grab that has high duration and range, but also high endlag.
  • Tether grab frame data would be standardized to match all other tether grabs
    • Tether vs Regular grabs
      • Higher startup frames for all types
      • Higher endlag frames for all types
      • Higher range
      • Higher hitbox duration
      • Acts as disjoints
  • In terms of current Smash 4 Samus, grab would have faster startup, more hitbox duration, and slightly less endlag
  • Approximate pummel damage: 0.7%

-------------------------------------------------------

So like I said, Samus has a mediocre grab. I think this is by design and I'm keeping it because it fits in with her less viable neutral game up close at least. However, I think tether grabs are a bit TOO punishing, so I would standardize all grabs, both regular and tether, to have the same frame data just like rolls and the variation would be in range as well as, you know, all the grabs that come out of it, rather than speed. Her pummel gets a damage nerf to compensate.

-------------------------------------------------------

:GCX::GCZ:ZAir:

  • Quick grapple beam outwards in front of Samus
  • Has very low landing lag
  • Has quite high range
  • Has a tiny bit of startup
  • Hitbox duration is long
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Grapple Beam: 2.4%

-------------------------------------------------------

This move already works well with the "aerial zoning" strength I mentioned as is. Not much change except making it a tiny bit stronger by having no sourspot early on and having the beam deal consistent damage no matter when it hits. Lowered damage to compensate, but in terms of short hop zoning, this is most likely a buff.

-------------------------------------------------------

:GCZ::GCR:FThrow:

  • Tosses the enemy in a twirling motion overhead, and then flings them forward
  • Has very low endlag
  • Knockback is sideways at around 70 degrees
  • Base knockback is very high in order to space for extra zoning
  • Approximate damage numbers: 8.7%
  • Approximate kill time: 225%

-------------------------------------------------------

The obligatory stage control throw, though I changed it to have more base knockback for zone control at the cost of a bit of damage. As you can tell, Samus' grabs won't be super impressive. Well, save for the next one.

-------------------------------------------------------

:GCZ::GCL:BThrow:

  • New move: Uses Electric Grapple for a short duration while slowly arcing the enemy behind her, flinging them back. Will heal Samus during the throw animation
  • Knockback is behind at around 60 degrees
  • Endlag is rather high
  • Base knockback is average for a bit of risk at early percents
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Electric Grapple: 1.3%*5
      • Heals during this time for 6.5% total
    • Final hit: 1.8%
    • Total: 8.3%
  • Approximate kill time: 170%

-------------------------------------------------------

Yet another reference to Metroid Prime that I feel should've been done. Like the game, it will heal Samus during the throw, but only a small amount at 6.5%, which she won't be getting often anyway considering how bad her grab is. And besides that, the knockback at early percents is low while the endlag is high, making it relatively unsafe at early percents. However, it can be used as a good edgeguarding tool regardless.

-------------------------------------------------------

:GCZ::GCU:UThrow:

  • New move: Will throw the enemy upwards and shoot three Power Beam shots upwards similar to Samus's upwards shooting stance in the original Metroid games.
  • Knockback is exactly upwards at 0 degrees
  • Has low endlag
  • Base knockback is very low for easy aerial read capabilities
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Toss: 1.3%
    • Power Shots: 2.1%*3
    • Total: 7.6%
  • Approximate kill time: 180%

-------------------------------------------------------

Yet another reference that I feel is appropriate. Besides that, it deals low knockback and sends them a fair distance away. Not a combo starter, but considering how meticulously I made it so Samus has a good air game, I think a distance for a read is fairly good.

-------------------------------------------------------

:GCZ::GCD:DThrow:

  • Swings the enemy overhead into the ground in front of Samus
  • Knockback would be at around 35 degrees
  • Base knockback would be very low to start combos with this
  • Has low endlag
  • Approximate damage numbers: 5.5%
  • Approximate kill time: 225%

-------------------------------------------------------

Last move, and it's basically her most useful throw. I only hope I at least made the other throws useful, but just in case, I did a slight damage nerf to this while leaving everything else basically the same.

-------------------------------------------------------


I finally finished, and no one has even replied. Sigh. :c

Oh well, still had fun. On the off chance someone replies, let me know what you think. :)
 
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#8
That’s just not what Zero Suit Samus looks like. It’s a grievous misrepresentation of her canon look, and Smash had no right to do that in my opinion.

Oh **** me, Nana is supposed to have blonde hair, not brown! (It was only that way on the NES because of tech limitations, I tell ya!) I'll never play Ice Climbers now because of this grievous oversight.



And this! Pit's not supposed to have a laurel wreath on his head! It's wrong! And this whole blade-splitting thing is also completely unnecessary & inaccurate.

Look. Designs change all the time, in Smash or otherwise. Samus in particular looked different in every single game until Zero Mission. The only true consistency is that she's a blonde, athletic woman.
 
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#9
Oh **** me, Nana is supposed to have blonde hair, not brown! (It was only that way on the NES because of tech limitations, I tell ya!) I'll never play Ice Climbers now because of this grievous oversight.



And this! Pit's not supposed to have a laurel wreath on his head! It's wrong! And this whole blade-splitting thing is also completely unnecessary & inaccurate.

Look. Designs change all the time, in Smash or otherwise. Samus in particular looked different in every single game until Zero Mission. The only true consistency is that she's a blonde, athletic woman.
There’s one other thing that’s been a constant since the aforementioned Zero Mission, and it’s conspicuously different in ultimate. But I’ve had this conversation a hundred times and it’s seldom pleasant, plus this thread is about Power Suit Samus, so let’s leave it there. :S
 
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#10
There’s one other thing that’s been a constant since the aforementioned Zero Mission, and it’s conspicuously different in ultimate. But I’ve had this conversation a hundred times and it’s seldom pleasant, plus this thread is about Power Suit Samus, so let’s leave it there. :S
Well, maybe stop bringing it up at every opportunity then. I was content to ignore what was, in my mind, an irrational, subjective argument, but I keep hearing it everywhere Samus-related. And if you become annoying enough, you may find that people start opposing you in bad faith than for genuine reasons.
 
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#11
Well, maybe stop bringing it up at every opportunity then. I was content to ignore what was, in my mind, an irrational, subjective argument, but I keep hearing it everywhere Samus-related. And if you become annoying enough, you may find that people start opposing you in bad faith than for genuine reasons.
I made that post on Monday, gimme a break :p
 

Porygon2

Smash Apprentice
Joined
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Messages
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#12
To bring things back on track, there are some fantastic ideas here.

I have had my own thoughts on what would be a reasonable Samus revamp, though they are more conservative than yours (as if that somehow makes the ideas more likely to materialize...) Of course a Mii-Gunner/Megaman style Samus makes more sense, but our ideas still share a few points. I too love the notion of charged smashes representing the charging of the canon, and of course getting more general representation of Samus's huge arsenal. The Wave Beam dealing damage through shield is very clever, and the Side-B is particularly outrageous in combination with the unique Smash effects - not sure on that one.

Here's my thoughts for what I'd expect in a Ganondorf-type revamp + general buff that attempts to keep the core of Samus's playstyle, while giving her a few more options:

Neutral
Samus's jabs and tilts focus on zoning, setting up opponents for aerial follow-ups and charge shot finishers. Aside from some broken hitboxes, this is generally fine.
  • Jab: First hit leads to second(!)
  • F-Tilt: No change.
  • D-Tilt: Reduced end lag.
  • U-Tilt: Similar functionality. Green jets now blast from Samus’s back during the animation, extending the hitbox backward very slightly and doing fire damage to opponents directly behind or on top of Samus. This is a reference to Other M’s sensemove animation.
  • Dash Attack: Sends at favorable Smash 4 angle. Samus leaves a trail of blue energy behind her, which slightly extends the hitbox and can deal minor electric damage. This is a reference to the Speed Booster upgrade.
  • Floor attacks/Getup: No change.
Aerial
Samus's floatiness makes her quite effective at chasing offstage. Changes here are largely aesthetic.
  • N-Air: Essentially the same, with the same added SFX as U-Tilt. This produces a small burning hitbox directly on Samus’s body.
  • U-Air: No change.
  • F-Air: No change.
  • D-Air: Slightly more forgiving meteor hitbox. More dramatic SFX now make it resemble the counter move from Samus Returns.
  • B-Air: No change.
  • Z-Air: No change.
Grabs
Samus has one of the worst grabs in the game owing to her origin as a projectile powerhouse. The game is full of other characters that do this now without such gimps, so the lag seems excessive.
  • Grab: Buff to end lag. Minimal as throws now have less outrageous kill percentages.
  • Pummel: Functionally identical, but Samus instead scorches the opponent with her canon.
  • F-Throw (New): Slightly higher knockback. Opponents are blasted forward with an animation similar to the mii gunner’s f-smash or f-air.
  • B-Throw: Knockback buff.
  • U-Throw (New): Similar functionality, but begins killing around 165. Samus blasts the opponent upward with a swirling purple beam. This references the Wave Beam.
  • D-Throw: No change.
Smashes
Samus's smashes seem ill-thought out in that 2 out of 3 require very specific spacing, and one is useless. This effectively leaves Samus totally reliant on her charge shot and back air for kills. To counteract this, these ideas keep the smashes kill potential situational, but grant more forgiving additional effects at high charge.
  • F-Smash: Slightly larger sweetspot. Charging sounds/SFX come from the canon as the move is held. At half charge and above, the SFX turn purple, referencing the Wave Beam. In this state, damage bypasses shields, albeit with no knockback or damage to the shield itself (new addition!)
  • U-Smash (New): Samus thrusts her arm canon into the ground, producing three medium-sized pillars of energy that act as hitboxes on either side of and on top of Samus. This is a reference to the Spazer Beam, and keeps the utility of the current U-Smash (d-throw to u-smash, etc.) while doing away with it missing on short characters. The side pillars scoop opponents toward the center pillar, which can kill at decent percents, but this can be DI’d. When halfway through the charging animation, the SFX turns blue, and the move will freeze opponents.
  • D-Smash (New): Samus kneels and flashes. On letting go of the button, she switches to morph ball mode and lets out a multi-hitting circle of energy that deals fire damage, referencing the Power Bomb. Size of the circle is dependent on charge. Damage is higher closer to Samus, but knockback is focused around the perimeter, where it has small knockback at a diagonal angle. This is generally for damage over kills, just adding something creative over the boring sweep kick. As the energy expands in a circle, it can be effectively used to gimp low recovery at the ledge, or to 2-frame with good timing.
Specials
Dubious about changing these as they are so iconic to smash. Beam-swapping is the most obvious idea, but I can't think how that would work without changing her core.
  • B: Fully charged has increased priority. Stage one has less end lag.
  • Side-B: General buff. Homing missiles are slower, supers kill at high percents.
  • Down-B: Bombs explode at proximity. Hold b down after the bomb to keep Samus stalled in morph ball form for a few moments. Moving left or right on the ground will execute the second half of her regular dodge animation; a second bomb can also be laid in this state by pressing a. Samus will pop out of the animation is normal after either of these actions. The faster roll allows for some mixups (e.g., easier bomb to charge shot shield break); the second bomb placement sacrifices the horizontal mobility of spamming down-b (which can still be done) while allowing for easier vertical bomb jumping and some offstage stalling mixups.
  • Up-B: No change.
Final Smash
Every Final Smash should be a celebration of the series. It's a crime that Samus's is so boring. This is a suggestion that relies entirely on visual changes, but makes the move a fanservice extravaganza nonetheless.
  • Final Smash (New-ish): Hyper beam. As Samus charges and the splash screen pops, the familiar shriek of Mother Brain is heard offscreen. The infant metroid then quickly sweeps across the top of the stage just as Samus is about to fire and imparts spheres of energy into her. The main beam is now rainbow-colored.
Visuals
As her default, Samus now dons either her Samus Returns suit or the suit from the upcoming Metroid Prime 4 to celebrate the current state of the series. Gravity is a recolor, or the Returns Gravity if that suit is her default. The Light and Dark suits are now true alts. Fusion is a recolor. Red is replaced by Phazon suit recolor with red hue and accentuated red lights. Pipedream: Green keeps green hue, but Samus is helmetless and flaunts her green Justin Bailey hair.
  • U-Taunt: Samus presses the side of her helmet (materializing it if it is missing), causing her visor to flash. The scan noise from Prime can be heard. She dismisses the data with the same salute animation.
  • S-Taunt: No change.
  • D-Taunt: Samus gives a thumbs up.
  • Victory 1: No change.
  • Victory 2: Samus jumps down from off-screen, dematerializes her helmet, gives a thumbs up, and says ‘See you next mission’. This is a reference to Metroid endgame screens.
  • Victory 3: Samus rolls backward from offscreen in morphball mode. She then springs up and shoots a blue beam at something, followed by a super missile, then quickly turns and points her canon at the screen. This is a reference to the typical method of dispatching metroids.
 
Joined
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#13
To bring things back on track, there are some fantastic ideas here.

I have had my own thoughts on what would be a reasonable Samus revamp, though they are more conservative than yours (as if that somehow makes the ideas more likely to materialize...) Of course a Mii-Gunner/Megaman style Samus makes more sense, but our ideas still share a few points. I too love the notion of charged smashes representing the charging of the canon, and of course getting more general representation of Samus's huge arsenal. The Wave Beam dealing damage through shield is very clever, and the Side-B is particularly outrageous in combination with the unique Smash effects - not sure on that one.

Here's my thoughts for what I'd expect in a Ganondorf-type revamp + general buff that attempts to keep the core of Samus's playstyle, while giving her a few more options:

Neutral
Samus's jabs and tilts focus on zoning, setting up opponents for aerial follow-ups and charge shot finishers. Aside from some broken hitboxes, this is generally fine.
  • Jab: First hit leads to second(!)
  • F-Tilt: No change.
  • D-Tilt: Reduced end lag.
  • U-Tilt: Similar functionality. Green jets now blast from Samus’s back during the animation, extending the hitbox backward very slightly and doing fire damage to opponents directly behind or on top of Samus. This is a reference to Other M’s sensemove animation.
  • Dash Attack: Sends at favorable Smash 4 angle. Samus leaves a trail of blue energy behind her, which slightly extends the hitbox and can deal minor electric damage. This is a reference to the Speed Booster upgrade.
  • Floor attacks/Getup: No change.
Aerial
Samus's floatiness makes her quite effective at chasing offstage. Changes here are largely aesthetic.
  • N-Air: Essentially the same, with the same added SFX as U-Tilt. This produces a small burning hitbox directly on Samus’s body.
  • U-Air: No change.
  • F-Air: No change.
  • D-Air: Slightly more forgiving meteor hitbox. More dramatic SFX now make it resemble the counter move from Samus Returns.
  • B-Air: No change.
  • Z-Air: No change.
Grabs
Samus has one of the worst grabs in the game owing to her origin as a projectile powerhouse. The game is full of other characters that do this now without such gimps, so the lag seems excessive.
  • Grab: Buff to end lag. Minimal as throws now have less outrageous kill percentages.
  • Pummel: Functionally identical, but Samus instead scorches the opponent with her canon.
  • F-Throw (New): Slightly higher knockback. Opponents are blasted forward with an animation similar to the mii gunner’s f-smash or f-air.
  • B-Throw: Knockback buff.
  • U-Throw (New): Similar functionality, but begins killing around 165. Samus blasts the opponent upward with a swirling purple beam. This references the Wave Beam.
  • D-Throw: No change.
Smashes
Samus's smashes seem ill-thought out in that 2 out of 3 require very specific spacing, and one is useless. This effectively leaves Samus totally reliant on her charge shot and back air for kills. To counteract this, these ideas keep the smashes kill potential situational, but grant more forgiving additional effects at high charge.
  • F-Smash: Slightly larger sweetspot. Charging sounds/SFX come from the canon as the move is held. At half charge and above, the SFX turn purple, referencing the Wave Beam. In this state, damage bypasses shields, albeit with no knockback or damage to the shield itself (new addition!)
  • U-Smash (New): Samus thrusts her arm canon into the ground, producing three medium-sized pillars of energy that act as hitboxes on either side of and on top of Samus. This is a reference to the Spazer Beam, and keeps the utility of the current U-Smash (d-throw to u-smash, etc.) while doing away with it missing on short characters. The side pillars scoop opponents toward the center pillar, which can kill at decent percents, but this can be DI’d. When halfway through the charging animation, the SFX turns blue, and the move will freeze opponents.
  • D-Smash (New): Samus kneels and flashes. On letting go of the button, she switches to morph ball mode and lets out a multi-hitting circle of energy that deals fire damage, referencing the Power Bomb. Size of the circle is dependent on charge. Damage is higher closer to Samus, but knockback is focused around the perimeter, where it has small knockback at a diagonal angle. This is generally for damage over kills, just adding something creative over the boring sweep kick. As the energy expands in a circle, it can be effectively used to gimp low recovery at the ledge, or to 2-frame with good timing.
Specials
Dubious about changing these as they are so iconic to smash. Beam-swapping is the most obvious idea, but I can't think how that would work without changing her core.
  • B: Fully charged has increased priority. Stage one has less end lag.
  • Side-B: General buff. Homing missiles are slower, supers kill at high percents.
  • Down-B: Bombs explode at proximity. Hold b down after the bomb to keep Samus stalled in morph ball form for a few moments. Moving left or right on the ground will execute the second half of her regular dodge animation; a second bomb can also be laid in this state by pressing a. Samus will pop out of the animation is normal after either of these actions. The faster roll allows for some mixups (e.g., easier bomb to charge shot shield break); the second bomb placement sacrifices the horizontal mobility of spamming down-b (which can still be done) while allowing for easier vertical bomb jumping and some offstage stalling mixups.
  • Up-B: No change.
Final Smash
Every Final Smash should be a celebration of the series. It's a crime that Samus's is so boring. This is a suggestion that relies entirely on visual changes, but makes the move a fanservice extravaganza nonetheless.
  • Final Smash (New-ish): Hyper beam. As Samus charges and the splash screen pops, the familiar shriek of Mother Brain is heard offscreen. The infant metroid then quickly sweeps across the top of the stage just as Samus is about to fire and imparts spheres of energy into her. The main beam is now rainbow-colored.
Visuals
As her default, Samus now dons either her Samus Returns suit or the suit from the upcoming Metroid Prime 4 to celebrate the current state of the series. Gravity is a recolor, or the Returns Gravity if that suit is her default. The Light and Dark suits are now true alts. Fusion is a recolor. Red is replaced by Phazon suit recolor with red hue and accentuated red lights. Pipedream: Green keeps green hue, but Samus is helmetless and flaunts her green Justin Bailey hair.
  • U-Taunt: Samus presses the side of her helmet (materializing it if it is missing), causing her visor to flash. The scan noise from Prime can be heard. She dismisses the data with the same salute animation.
  • S-Taunt: No change.
  • D-Taunt: Samus gives a thumbs up.
  • Victory 1: No change.
  • Victory 2: Samus jumps down from off-screen, dematerializes her helmet, gives a thumbs up, and says ‘See you next mission’. This is a reference to Metroid endgame screens.
  • Victory 3: Samus rolls backward from offscreen in morphball mode. She then springs up and shoots a blue beam at something, followed by a super missile, then quickly turns and points her canon at the screen. This is a reference to the typical method of dispatching metroids.
Samus has bad throws? I honestly forget throws are even a thing in Smash (super duper ultra casual here LOL) so I guess that’s another reason she suits me down to the ground. Can we work in the SR melee counter in as a tilt or smash? (Not actually as a counter in the context of smash) Maybe if it was a smash, it could turn green like the lightning armor version when fully charged? :D
 
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#14
Over9000BPM Over9000BPM

With all of my crazy ideas, I actually was thinking about putting in her Samus Returns counter, but I thought to myself that it didn't exactly fit with the playstyle I was working around of an aerial zoner/edgeguarder. Now granted, even with all the types of projectiles I gave her, she still has much close range power than Mega Man, making them still quite distinct, so I didn't think I needed to add the counter and stuck to just adding more projectiles for trapping, edgeguarding etc. while still retaining some good melee prowess. And while I did say Samus is good at getting out of disadvantage, I wanted this to be down mostly out of higher priority moves and better than average air control and jumps than just powering through aggression with counter.
 
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#15
Over9000BPM Over9000BPM

With all of my crazy ideas, I actually was thinking about putting in her Samus Returns counter, but I thought to myself that it didn't exactly fit with the playstyle I was working around of an aerial zoner/edgeguarder. Now granted, even with all the types of projectiles I gave her, she still has much close range power than Mega Man, making them still quite distinct, so I didn't think I needed to add the counter and stuck to just adding more projectiles for trapping, edgeguarding etc. while still retaining some good melee prowess. And while I did say Samus is good at getting out of disadvantage, I wanted this to be down mostly out of higher priority moves and better than average air control and jumps than just powering through aggression with counter.
Fair enough I basically just have Samus Returns on the brain so yeah :D
 
Joined
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Messages
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#17
U User Name String Lucky for you, I brought up both of those in her new Down-B move. As for the Final Smash, I'd rather change it to something like the Baby Metroid fused Power Suit. It effectively is the Zero Laser, but would be more of a rapid fire explosive barrage like in Super Metroid. Either that or her Aeon abilities in Returns.
 

User Name String

Smash Apprentice
Joined
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Messages
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#18
Fair enough, it's just strange how little Samus & Mario's Final Smashes have to do with them and their series. (Even Link got a new one.)
 

Porygon2

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 2, 2014
Messages
188
#19
Samus has bad throws?
She's considered to have bad throws as they are unable to score a KO unless the opponent is at a very high percent, plus her grab is tied with Zero Suit as the slowest in the game. Zero Suit also lacks great killing throws, but can normally pull of a punch of combos from a grab, so it's high risk high reward (plus she has the paralyzer to slow opponents down). Most of Samus's throw follow-ups like D-Throw > F-Air/U-Air can also just be done out of a dash attack, which is much safer to spam.
 
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#20
Jab 1
Visually keep jab 1 as is. Remove the 361° angle. Keep the growth knock-back as is. Leave the frames as is. Continue to allow jab canceling.

Jab 2
Visually keep jab 2. Leave the base and growth knock-back as is.

Dash Attack
By altering the angle and knock-back, Samus loses the ability to combo. Retain the new speed booster appearance, but allow Samus the ability to set up combos from this attack. Also include a slightly larger hitbox in the front, similar to Ness' dash attack, but not to the degree of Ness' dash attack. In Metroid: Other M, the speed booster has a bit of range in the front.

U-tilt
Samus and Captain Falcon shared the same polygon in SSB, and since Captain Falcon's u-tilt seems more effective at spiking, let him keep it. Samus could have Melee Counter. While it needn't be a counter itself, it should be able to stop projectiles, due to its high priority. Perhaps allow for it to set up f-air or u-air combos.

F-tilt
This is fine as is, although reducing the FAF just a tad would be nice so Samus would be safe, even when she's only a knee away from her opponent.

D-tilt
This is also fine, but give it its kill power it once had.

U-smash
Assume Samus is standing at a 90° angle. Imagine then her arm cannon starting up at a 134° angle all the way to where u-smash normally ends. This would allow for the flames to catch opponents as short as and shorter than Mario. Add an auto-link angle so the opponent doesn't fall out.

F-smash
It'd be great if f-smash didn't whiff. It still whiffs. Increase the hitbox, please.

D-smash
Just give Samus Mii Gunner's d-smash, and fix that so the second part of the attack doesn't miss at times. And let it kill like it did before in SSBM.

N-air
This aerial is fine as is.

U-air
Give u-air a bit more knock-back so it can kill. Make it impossible to SDI downward.

F-air
I hate f-air sometimes, especially when using it as I return onto the stage from the ledge. The reason is because sometimes I go over my opponent, which is amazing considering they're tall enough to get hit. Increase the hitbox size. Make it impossible to SDI downward. What good is a combo move when people can break free?

B-air
This is a pretty good attack as is.

D-air
Make it faster.

Z-air
Now that z-air has been Meleefied in SSBU, it's likely to be ****. Make z-air a useful zoning tool like it was in SSBB and SSB4, please.

Charge Shot
Charging faster would be great. Why should I have to waste 2.333 seconds when my opponent can easily dodge or block? And why does Charge Shot not kill as soon as Captain Falcon's f-air? Captain Falcon's f-air is much easier to land and is almost always guaranteed to kill.

Screw Attack
Even when Samus uses Screw Attack, she should continue to do so as she returns to the ground. Samus has never been left open, and there are characters who use their up special and can freely do whatever afterwards. So if Samus has to be stuck in a helpless animation, she should remain in the Screw Attack animation during her descent. Since people keep falling out of this attack, Samus should probably have a bigger hitbox and windbox to pull the opponent in to help prevent the opponent from falling out and punishing Samus.

Forward+B
Make Homing Missile more precise and Super Missile kill.

Down+B
Bombs are fine, now that they have their proximity explosion.

Grabs
When Samus grabs an opponent at a distance, she should use her grapple beam, just as she does already. However, when she's next to the opponent, she should grab her opponent with her left hand. This would help immensely.

Pummel
When Samus grabs using her grapple beam, she can do her usual Chozo chop. When she grabs with her left hand, she can shoot uncharged Charge Shot.

B-throw
I think b-throw should kill. I'm not talking about 150%, either. Maybe somewhere starting at 120%. Ness, who isn't physically strong, can kill with b-throw. Sure, he has psychokinesis, so he passes. But, Toon Link, too? How? He's not wearing some power bracelet. Marth? Roy? Lucina? Please.
 
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Koopaul

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 29, 2013
Messages
1,585
#21
Necro'lic Necro'lic

I like the idea of giving everyone an equal first jump the only problem is that it would seem extremely wierd for Little Mac and Luigi to have the same jump height. Luigi is canonically known for jumping higher than most characters, and Little Mac is now infamous for being a poor jumper. You simply can't change that. If this was Dragon Fighter and we weren't taking characters from other series who have signature strengths and abilities, then I can see your point.
 
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Joined
Aug 9, 2015
Messages
558
#22
Koopaul Koopaul You forget that there are many other variables involving a character's aerial mobility. For example, Luigi would have a MUCH higher double jump than Little Mac (and most other characters honestly). Meanwhile Little Mac most likely will have the shortest double jump out of everyone, barring multijumpers. In addition, we have horizontal air speed, fast fall speed, regular fall speed, air acceleration, and probably a few others that I can't think of right now. Most likely Little Mac will have horrible fast fall speed, high gravity/regular fall speed (to be comboed easily and not get out of combos easily), and poor air acceleration, making his jump committal. And that's not even getting into moves.

You can keep Little Mac as a bad airfighter and still increase his single jump height.
 
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Quillion

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
3,202
#23
I still personally think that Samus needs projectile normals (or pseudo-projectile normals) to be the perfect contrast to ZSS's close-range focus. Make them a rapid jab, and put them on her U-Smash, F-air, and D-air. Your idea for a projectile normal F-Smash is cool, though I would also want a pseudo-projectile blast on it as well (bigger than what it is now).
 
Joined
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Messages
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#24
I still personally think that Samus needs projectile normals (or pseudo-projectile normals) to be the perfect contrast to ZSS's close-range focus. Make them a rapid jab, and put them on her U-Smash, F-air, and D-air. Your idea for a projectile normal F-Smash is cool, though I would also want a pseudo-projectile blast on it as well (bigger than what it is now).
I think my Power Beam and Missile ideas were enough to allow for pretty varied zoning ability, especially considering she has a rapid fire tool that flinches in Power Beam AND it can work while jumping. Plus, you have five different kinds of missiles. And that's not even taking into account the Morph Ball bombs. I think that's more than enough for the purpose of zoning.

Contrary to me attempting to make Samus more in line with her canon, I didn't want her to be like Mega Man. That's why most of these projectiles involve very different effects that can only be used one at a time. She still brawls a bit. I didn't want that taken away.
 
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#25
I still personally think that Samus needs projectile normals (or pseudo-projectile normals) to be the perfect contrast to ZSS's close-range focus. Make them a rapid jab, and put them on her U-Smash, F-air, and D-air. Your idea for a projectile normal F-Smash is cool, though I would also want a pseudo-projectile blast on it as well (bigger than what it is now).
Samus contrasts ZSS with zoning, weight and particularly in Ultimate, power, especially now that it is no longer largely relegated to Charge Shot. Many of her moves now have great knockback.
 

Quillion

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
3,202
#26
I think my Power Beam and Missile ideas were enough to allow for pretty varied zoning ability, especially considering she has a rapid fire tool that flinches in Power Beam AND it can work while jumping. Plus, you have five different kinds of missiles. And that's not even taking into account the Morph Ball bombs. I think that's more than enough for the purpose of zoning.

Contrary to me attempting to make Samus more in line with her canon, I didn't want her to be like Mega Man. That's why most of these projectiles involve very different effects that can only be used one at a time. She still brawls a bit. I didn't want that taken away.
The Side-B idea is a bit overcomplicated, though. I think it would just be fine if it's the same as it is now but can rapid fire 2 or 3 at a time (while Super Missile still can't rapid fire).

I agree that projectile normals shouldn't go overboard so that it won't step on Mega Man's toes, but adding it to her jab, F-Smash, and F-air only (maybe U-Smash was overboard) would be even nice for zoning without having to overrely on that type of style.

I like how you make the Power Beam able to rapid fire, though. Perhaps that alone could make up for lack of projectile normals (though it could make her playstyle a bit too repetitive).

As a last note, her Shield Parry should totally be the Melee Counter.
 

Lorisaur

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 18, 2018
Messages
60
#27
Ok, let's redesign Samus to make her more sticking to the original games, fitting to smash as the same and maybe slightly better overall.

Her upsmash, fsmash and fair are fine: in metroid fusion SA-X uses similar bursts in the restricted area, showing that also Samus could do it in her armorsuit. As for the downsmash, I would give her a diagonally downwards shooted ice beam, that could act a bit like ZSS (and possibly make grab more reliable). For the Dair I would give her a downwards strike like... Cloud's Dair (but with arm cannon) that acts as a sex kick with an initial spike. The pose should resemble the aerial-looking down pose from super metroid (if you have ever mockballed you know what I mean). Backair is fine, not canon but also Ridley has it and it might have a deeper meaning like "also Ridley learns from his archnemesis". Nair could be something that looks like spinjump animation from super metroid (and possibly links into grab with late hitbox) and upair... it's not linked to the original games but I can't think anything else.
DownB and upB are ok, NeutralB might be Wave Beam, with purple color and the ability to get through small walls as well as a wave effect for uncharged charge shot. SideB instead should get the landing lag cancel like it was in melee. Zair should not bounce as it doesn't in the original game, and Grab has to be visually more straight because in smash it looks quite different from Grapple Beam. Talking about tilts, there's not much we can do. Uptilt might be like sheik, with two hitbkxes, while other tilts are just fine, nothing incredible but good. Last but not least, Samus has to be able to wall cling (reference to her original walljump system) and crawl using morphball (with the ability to morph ball jump, maybe) and pressing attack while crawling will result in a bomb (speed boost was great, but in Super Metroid she does not have it).

What do you think about it? Not radical changes, but it should work
 
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#28
Can we have her iconic cannon pump pose as a taunt like it was in Smash 64 and Melee? just replace that lame salute she has which has nothing to do with her.
Aside from that i find it so jarring that her "getting up" attack (which is simialr to Mii Gunner's down smash) actually looks like a down smash she would do instead of that generic swipe kick she has, just swap them up!
 
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