Redesigning/Rebalancing Ice Climbers

Joined
Aug 9, 2015
Messages
558
#1
Mini-Redesign/Rebalance Threads

:ultmario: Mario

:ultdk: Donkey Kong

:ultkirby: Kirby

:ultbrawler: Mii Brawler
I know I haven't finished two out of these rebalance threads, but I wanted to start and get one more out there before we get to the blessed day of Ultimate's release date. And so, I will do one that I have been mulling over for years now on how to do, and I think I finally have a good foundation. So let's rework/rebalance/redesign our favorite Inuit cutie pies, the Ice Climbers! :D

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Like with all of my "rebalancing" exercises, I will showcase what I believe the character's purposes should be overall, as well as the strengths and weaknesses they should have.

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Ice Climbers:ulticeclimbers::ulticeclimbers:

Purpose: Stage control/Very creative combos/High pressure/Reliant on set up/Sluggish

Strengths should be:

Many ways to combo
High area of influence
Heavy advantage state
Immense damage potential

Weaknesses should be:

Power and advantage requires upkeep
Very vulnerable disadvantage state
Overall slow movement and attack speed
Lackluster neutral

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General stats are about how these characters fair more relatively to everyone else, but some things might stand out here.

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General Statistics::ulticeclimbers::ulticeclimbers:

  • Lightweight
    • (Note that weight difference should be much tighter overall, so Ice Climbers will definitely get a weight buff)
  • Low walk speed
  • Below average run speed
    • (Walk speed and run speed would be more compacted for the slowest and fastest characters)
  • Average horizontal air speed
  • Low fall speed
  • Low fast fall speed
    • (Fall speed across the board should be increased, so the Ice Climbers' would too)
  • Standardized first jump
    • (All first jumps for all characters will be the same height: around 80% the height of the top platform in Battlefield)
  • Average double jump height
    • (Baseline for double jump will be lower than it is now, but varied between characters: Ice Climbers' new jump height would be about 70% of their double jump height in Brawl)
  • Wall Jump (All characters will be able to wall jump, but not all can wall cling)
  • Average roll distance
    • (All characters will have the same frame data on rolls, with the only real variance between them being distance)
  • Average shield health
    • (Shield health would now differ between characters, with the baseline being 100 shield health. Both Popo and Nana would have 100)
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Honestly, other than the usual universal changes to the standard first jump and lowered double jump as well as the new wall jump, this is honestly the least changed character stat wise I think I've done so far. But don't worry, because there is PLENTY more to go through

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:ulticeclimbers::ulticeclimbers: + :GCB: and :GCLT: Special trait and move: In Sync

  • New move: Pressing the special button will automatically desync Nana from Popo allowing both to be controlled independently. Holding down the L Button by default will allow the control of Nana directly, allowing her to move freely, attack, dodge, and shield using the appropriate buttons. Letting go of the L Button will relinquish control back to Popo. Hitting the special button again will cause them to sync up again, controlling both at once. When there is one Climber left, holding down the special button will cause the remaining Climber to stop and fill a gauge that will call in the second Climber when full. While synced and desynced, Popo and Nana will gain and lose some properties
    • Gauge takes about 9 seconds straight before filling to max
    • If one Climber is knocked out, the remaining Climber will have the control by the player
    • Calling in the second Climber again will have them back at the last percentage they were at before knocked out
    • This move can be used at any time during attacks or shielding
    • When in sync
      • Nana loses the ability to grab
      • Nana loses the ability to attack while Popo is grabbing
      • Nana loses the ability to attack while Popo is being grabbed
      • Nana will gain a 25% movespeed increase when separated from Popo
    • When not in sync
      • Popo and Nana's regrab penalty is increased by 2 seconds
      • Popo and Nana's grab cause 75% damage reduction and knockback reduction while the enemy is held in place
      • Popo and Nana will lose the bonus properties given to their attacks should two of the same attack hit one enemy
    • Certain things shared
      • Both Popo and Nana work off the same stale dodge and stale move queue
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Like Dr. Mario, here's a weird trait I have to seel to you before we move on to the moves proper. Here goes nothing...

I doubt I'm the first to suggest this, but this trait allows both Climbers to be controlled independently using a sort of control switch system. This is not dissimilar to Afi and Galu from Icons: Combat Arena, and honestly is the most creative character to come out of that game and one of the only creative things to come out of that game lol.

Poorly hidden shade aside, where Afi and Galu differ is that when you control one or the other, the inactive one will be just that, inactive. They can't get hurt, they can't attack, they are just there. Not so with this system, because you can sync and desync whenever you want, and while desynced, Nana and Popo are basically two independent characters that one player controls. They do this by holding down the hitherto unused shoulder button of L by default (or R, whichever is not used since both are shield buttons) to control Nana and then simply let go to control Popo. Alternatively, they can sync them temporarily and desync when Nana is closer to position, since she gains a speed boost when synced up and away from Popo, which is good.

But now we have the caveats. First, let's talk about how stocks will work. Because both Climbers are now controllable, it is only fair that when one dies, the other is controlled, regardless of who it is. This can potentially cause stocks to drag out a bit, especially if the opponent is only attacking one and not the other. This will be made up for with the Climbers' absolutely horrific ability to defend themselves and the inability to camp effectively. Plus, with how the moves work with syncing up, there is incentive to sync to power up these moves, and thus incentive to make both Climbers weak to collateral damage. The saving grace is that there is the ability to call in the dead Climber by filling a gauge similar to Cloud's limit meter, meaning you won't be completely gimped with a dead Climber. Unfortunately, they will return with the same percent as when they died, so yeah. Not much use when both of you are high damage, and you are both lightweights, so it will be easy to eventually kill both. And only then is a stock taken and both are healed to 0%.

The other thing is the fact that this fully controllable desync will definitely be abused with grabs like in previous games. Well, when desynced, neither Climber can regrab for 3 seconds rather than 1, meaning the Brawl version of Climbers is definitely not going to happen. In addition to this to stop a sort of mini-wobble like in Melee, an opponent actually grabbed by a Climber will gain 75% damage reduction and knockback reduction, meaning grabbing with one Climber and FSmashing with the other is almost ineffective. Lastly, both share the same stale move queue and stale dodges, so be careful with that.

Oh god, this might be potentially the most imbalanced thing I've ever thought up, but it's only as balanced as their moves, so let's look...

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:GCA::GCA: Jab:

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COMING SOON

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:GCR::GCA: FTilt:

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COMING SOON

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:GCU::GCA: UTilt:

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COMING SOON

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:GCD::GCA: DTilt:

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COMING SOON

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:GCR::GCR::GCA: Dash Attack:

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COMING SOON

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:GCCR: FSmash:

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COMING SOON

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:GCCU: USmash:

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COMING SOON

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:GCCD: DSmash:

  • Does a quick sweeping swing with the hammer in front of them. When synced up, the second Climber will use the same move in the opposite direction
  • Low priority
  • Very low startup
  • Above average endlag
  • Pushes back shielding opponents
  • Knockback is sideways at 40 degrees
  • Barely safe on shield
  • Average shield damage
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Normal: 9.2%-12.9%
    • Synced back hit: 14.2%-19.9%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Normal: 185%-165%
    • Synced back hit: 165%-145%

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This is the new DSmash in Ultimate where the two work as a team by swinging in both directions. The synced version of this move will not only actually cover both sides, but will have a stronger hit from the second Climber. Desynced it is still very useful however.

Remember that you can charge smash attacks for a long time while desynced, and the partner can either cover the other's charge, or lead them into it, followed by a quick switch and hit of the smash attack button again to finish them. This one isn't as good as FSmash or USmash for that purpose. What it is good at is getting enemies off of you due to it pushing back shielded enemies while also having pretty good shieldstun. It also has almost no startup, so it is a good OOS option as well. The endlag is a bit high and the kill power is low though, so this move should be used pretty sparingly.

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:GCX::GCA: NAir:

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COMING SOON

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:GCX::GCR::GCA: FAir:

  • Readies a strong hammer swing downward to the point of flipping in midair. A synced hit causes a meteor smash
  • Average priority
  • High startup
  • Above average startup
  • Low landing lag
  • Knockback is upwards at 45 degrees when desynced
    • Knockback is downwards at 290 when synced
  • Barely safe on shield when desynced
    • Safe on shield when synced
  • Above average shield damage when both synced and desynced
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Desync: 9.0%
    • Sync: 9.5%
    • Full sync hit: 18.5%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Desync: 155%
    • Sync: 100%

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So this move still has the special Nana meteor smash feature, but you can only do it if you are synced up, so yet another move that has added features for staying together. As for desynced uses, the high startup on this move means you can potentially land with this move on one Climber, switch over, and cover some options the enemy could take while they are swinging.

This move is also very useful for edgeguarding in both sync and desync, the former due to the great meteor smash, and the latter due to covering jump from the ledge super well, especially if used in conjunction with a Blizzard from the other Climber. On top of this, it kills early if you catch them near the ledge.

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:GCX::GCL::GCA: BAir:

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COMING SOON

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:GCX::GCU::GCA: UAir:

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COMING SOON

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:GCX::GCD::GCA: DAir:

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COMING SOON

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:GCRT::GCB: Shield-B:

  • Remapped move: Ice Shot: The Climbers will swing a small iceberg shaped block of ice with their hammers, making it slide across the ground and deal minor damage and knockback when hitting an enemy. When two projectiles hit in quick succession, they will freeze the opponent briefly
    • Can be reflected, but when synced, the second one will usually cancel the reflected first ice shot
    • Freeze lasts 0.75 seconds regardless of percent and regardless of input
    • Frozen enemies take 50% knockback
    • Ice Shot will continuously shrink while sliding
  • Average startup
  • Average endlag
  • No shield damage
  • No shieldstun
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Ice Shot: 1.5%
    • Freeze: 1.5%

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So this move is slightly repurposed to a good deterrent when both separated and synced up. It still is very annoying to deal with, and compels defensive behavior, making it one of the few ways the Climbers can defend themselves adequately from full agression, giving them enough time to set up their desynced shenanigans.

However, when both ice shots hit, most likely through syncing, the opponent will be frozen in place briefly for a set duration, allowing for approaches as well as potential traps. More inventive, desyncing a Climber to run to the frozen enemy and comboing them by hitting into the waiting Climber from across the stage is a cool (haha) idea as well.

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:GCL::GCB::GCR: Side-B:

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COMING SOON

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:GCU::GCB: Up-B:

  • New move: Condor Lift: Both individual Ice Climbers will hitch a ride on a corresponding Condor to lift them upwards for a brief period of time. The starting flight path of the Condor is set on activation, though it can be directly controlled. Using any attack will let go of the Condor and use the attack, followed by being helpless until hitting the ground. If no attack is used, after the Condor is exhausted, the Climber will go into helpless fall anyway
    • Condor flight lasts about 4 seconds maximum
    • Condor flight speed is about the same speed as Snake's Cypher's maximum speed
  • Extremely low startup

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So with the advent of separate controllable Climbers, it makes sense to not have Belay for two reasons; firstly, it would be useless if you desync the Climbers, and second, it makes desyncing them and the opponent attacking the one you aren't controlling far more favorable than it should be. Thus, we have a new move here that works well with both scenarios.

By quickly switching to the Climber knocked over the edge, you can control the Condor's trajectory on startup, which is a godsend for setting the path of your rogue Climber while your other one comes to help out. And these birds lift pretty darn fast. On top of that, because you can attack once out of this move, this can be used to even set up cheeky ceiling combos by having the grounded Climber "pass" the opponent to the other upwards.

Overall, this is a much better move than Belay both synced and desynced and works well with the gimmick I've given them.

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:GCD::GCB: Down-B:

  • Blizzard: The Climbers will stretch out their free hand to shoot an icy wind from their gloves in a short ranged cone in front of them. This can be constantly done by pressing the special button and deactivated by pressing it again. When enemies are hit, they will receive slight knockback and damage. If hit enough times, they will freeze over
    • Cone is about 1.5 Climber lengths
    • Freeze lasts a minimum of 1.25 seconds and a maximum of 3 seconds depending on the enemy's damage and button mashing
    • Must hit the enemy at least 6 times to freeze
    • Can last indefinitely
  • Average startup
  • Above average endlag
  • Above average shield damage
  • Unsafe on shield
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Blizzard damage over time: 2.0% per 0.25 seconds
    • Freeze: 6.0%

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So again, like most of the moves here, this one works a bit differently mechanically to accommodate for the new desync feature. Firstly, the Blizzard can last indefinitely, and it works instead by pressing the button to do it, and pressing again to stop rather than holding it. This means you can make a Climber Blizzard in perpetuity while controlling the other, which can lead to some great stage control.

But the freeze mechanic is a bit different. Now it takes a certain amount of hits to freeze over the enemy regardless of percent or how close they are to the Climber. And with this comes the benefit of syncing, because since both Climbers will now Blizzard in one direction, it gets you that 6 hit quota far faster while also dealing more damage. And unlike Ice Shot's new freeze, this one doesn't give less knockback to the enemy, so the kill power is still here.

The main problem with this move is it's unsafe when shielded, though it can chip away at them pretty well. The actual weakness is the rather high endlag, meaning you are committing to this, and if your buddy isn't nearby, you can barely defend well enough against all angles but forward, so cover your other Climber.

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:GCZ: Grab and Pummel:

  • Below average range melee grab
  • Average standardized grab frame data
    • (There would be three standardized frame data "rankings" for melee grabs)
      • (Fast: 6 frame standing grab, 8 frame dash grab, 9 frame pivot grab)
      • (Average: 9 frame standing grab, 11 frame dash grab, 12 frame pivot grab)
      • (Slow: 12 frame standing grab, 14 frame dash grab, 15 frame pivot grab)
  • Approximate pummel damage: 1.0%
  • Approximate pummel speed: 0.3 seconds
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Considering all the caveats for exploiting grabs has been covered, these two are left with a rather plain, average frame data, low range grab. Pummel is unremarkable too, though note it will not be affected by the desync grabbed damage penalty.

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:GCZ::GCR: FThrow:

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COMING SOON

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:GCZ::GCL: BThrow:

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COMING SOON

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:GCZ::GCU: UThrow:

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COMING SOON

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:GCZ::GCD: DThrow:

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COMING SOON

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Oh boy just the start of this looks crazy enough. Let's see if I can actually come up with something coherent before the 7th.
 
Last edited:

MSFan222

Smash Rookie
Joined
Nov 27, 2018
Messages
11
#4
That was a lot of explanation.
Good anyways how you explained the :ulticeclimbers: remake in Ultimate...
Yes, i haven't read anything, just came here to see the comments. It's kinda empty tho.
 
Joined
Aug 9, 2015
Messages
558
#5
That was a lot of explanation.
Good anyways how you explained the :ulticeclimbers: remake in Ultimate...
Yes, i haven't read anything, just came here to see the comments. It's kinda empty tho.
I don't get many comments on these. But to be fair, I just posted this lol.
 
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