Redesign Final Smash

[Cool Daddy Booty Funk]

Just wondering the overall opinions on final smashes from this forum.

Should a final smash be only an item, or would it beneficial if final smash was a combo meter that would fill up as a character deals damage. Lots of games have this implemented and personally I find it a lot more enjoyable than trying to trace down a floating orb, especially as a character like DK.

This doesn't mean that a smash ball itself should be removed, it can automatically fill a portion of a characters combo meter. Whether it is only some of a meter or the whole thing, it is not a big deal.

Also, with a meter design, this could allow characters to have multiple final smash attacks. For example, at 50% full, a final smash is an area of effect based attack that isn't necessarily an instant kill, but does widespread damage. Think DK, or Mario's current final smash. Then at 100%, this is basically the I-Win button. If you get hit, you are knocked off the stage. This can also be dramatic animations, such as Link's or Captain Falcon's smash.

Additional, the initiation of a final smash feels sloppy in general. Pressing B limits your moveset after grabbing a smash ball, and clearly would never work with my suggested meter suggestions. Pressing A+B at the same time or another button combination would solve that issue.

Maybe this has been suggested before and I overlooked the initial thread, but I hope I get some good feedback from you guys. Maybe you like the current system, but after playing other games I personally find combo meters far superior.

 

[Hypercat-Z]

I think I would like if there is a cheer meter. The more stylish (avoid attacks, escape from a grab, save from a fall...) the more it fills up.
Also, when entering this thread I thought "redesign" meant reinvent them totally.

 

[GetBentSaggy]

If Final Smashes are going to be hugely imbalanced (compare: Pit's final smash to Sonic's) then get rid of them. If not, it's fine to keep them because they won't be gamebreaking - the biggest problem they had in Brawl.

I like the fact that people have to press B, it means that they won't be trying to stall and waste time and use cheap tactics. Allowing them to still effectively attack opponents while they have the smash ball is a huge 'f*ck you!' and creates just as much of an imbalance of power.

I'm also against a cheer meter. Or any meters at all (except for boss health). It's an archaic feature that's not even relevant or used in SSB (except for boss health).

Having a cheer meter or a combo meter or whatever is pretty pointless because it means that either 1) you'll have a smash ball after you've already heavily beaten down your opponent (that is if you manage to get them to 100% or higher without them ruining and slowing down momentum) 2) if you beat them down heavily, get a smash ball, KO them regularly, you can get a cheap and boring kill as soon as they come back - or at least deal a quick 50% damage.


Finally, to actually get a smash ball, don't use the bullsh*t 'meter'. Have the smash ball return with final smashes fairly balanced. When the smash ball comes on screen, make it harder to break. Make us smash it open. Let us see the actual damage and implement some cracking, dents and shatters from the ball as it's hit.

 

[Hypercat-Z]

Uhmmm... How about TWO Smash Balls? A light one and a dark one.
The light one appears after a while if there is not great damage in the match, while the dark one appears if there is a lot of damage.
The light one turns Sonic into Super Sonic, while the Dark One turns Sonic into Werehog Sonic (tht's how I thought about a light ball and a dark ball).

 

[GetBentSaggy]

Uhmmm... How about TWO Smash Balls? A light one and a dark one.
The light one appears after a while if there is not great damage in the match, while the dark one appears if there is a lot of damage.
The light one turns Sonic into Super Sonic, while the Dark One turns Sonic into Werehog Sonic (tht's how I thought about a light ball and a dark ball).

It's very likely that at any given time any one person will have a lot of damage. It can happen within the first 5 seconds of a match, imagine how rare a 'light smash ball' would be. Not only that, production would take longer and they would have to think of more unique final smashes.

When there's an item that has so much priority that people would rather get the item than easily knock out someone on high damage, it needs to be fixed. Doing that (by making the smash ball hard to break) would fix the problem because people wouldn't rush to it and disregard the fight. However, there's a problem when the person on high damage gets the smash and easily kills the low damage friend - in some cases (Super Sonic) they can do it multiple times.

That's called 'gamebreaking'.

 

[Claire Diviner]

Wasn't there a thread addressing this issue already? To answer the question with another question, why not have a Meter Mode AND a Smash Ball Mode?

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

All Final Smashes should be redesigned as Land Masters

 

[BTmoney]

Ehhh I don't care since it probably won't be in tournament .

But just for complete fun and hype, there could be a combo counter
Like if you get a certain combo length (like 10 hits) it sets up with a special kill move from 0%
But these have to be TAS-looking combos, otherwise they'd be gamebreaking.

So like Fox vs Fox
Lol this isn't all guaranteed but something like

Uthrow -> up tilt -> drill shine -> reset -> jab grab -> up tilt -> soft bair -> nair plane -> shine (in air) -> nair -> illusion

Then Peppy (do a barrel roll) saves you and proceeds to perform rude and disrespectful combos on the enemy until the match ends.

Btw I don't consider Peppy from starfox coming in and performing 0 death combos until the match ends gamebreaking

/lul

 

[GetBentSaggy]

Meter mode is awful. That means that, for the likelihood of a character to be eliminated, they would be relying on the skill and progress of their opponents - not how good or how well they've played. That's the number 1 thing people complain about PSASBR, the meter mode, and that the only way to KO someone is by filling the meter and using the special move.

 

[splat]

Much like the items in Mario Kart, items in Smash seem to be designed to somewhat elevate the field. Changing the Smash Ball to some kind of meter that fills up as you deal damage would mean the opposite would happen; people that pull of nice combos would get the opportunity to use a Final Smash much sooner.

I feel the entire suggestion would be game breaking. It'd destroy competititve play (as Final Smashes are very different in usefelness; compare, say, Sonic's to Peach's) and casual players wouldn't like it as the better player would become even better, thus losing any suspense of close matches.

I like the current set-up of Final Smashes. They are (mostly) attacks based on the fighter as well, fitting the character. Changing it to AoE and iWin attacks would feel very out of place for some characters. I would like a bit more balance between them, but they create an extra sense of suspense, franticness and energy, which makes them overall fit for casual play - and that's what they're made for.

 

[BTmoney]

Hey, well I'm completely against the concept of final smash in competitive play regardless.

But that is fun, since all my roommates are horrible at smash I played them with smash balls on and it was a lot of fun.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Man, it's been a LONG time since I've had to discuss this, but I figure with SSB4 coming up, I should get back into it a bit; something tells me, the subject will get... hairy, to say the least, when we start getting concrete details about the game.

Before I start, let me say that I feel I am qualified to speak critically on the subject of the mechanics of Smash Balls.

It is my opinion that Final Smashes absolutely cannot return to Smash attached to the concept of items, especially Smash Balls (as currently implemented) without serious issues regarding competitive play.

Smash Balls, like certain stages, completely undermine good character balance. Supers, in and of themselves, can be balanced fairly trivially in traditional fighters by simply tweaking damage and hitstun values; Smash has to deal with knockback values and move persistence, as well, which are non-trivial (if all moves were non-persistent, like Great Aether or Critical Hit, for instance, instead of like Super Sonic or Landmasters, then balance would be much simpler). Adding the variable of super acquisition through item acquisition super-simplifies balance, but in a bad way: it simply makes unviable any character with sub-par movement. Ganon may have a great Final Smash, but his inability to get the Smash Ball consistently makes the balance of the move meaningless: he will rarely get the ball, and thus will rarely use his Final Smash.

The mere existence of the Smash Ball over-prioritizes multiple character traits, including movement speed (especially air movement), multi-hit attacks, and high burst damage. Characters without those traits become less viable, regardless of the relative balance of their Final Smashes, because of their inability to get the Smash Ball. This naturally results in a less diverse viable cast.

 

[Cool Daddy Booty Funk]

It is my opinion that Final Smashes absolutely cannot return to Smash attached to the concept of items, especially Smash Balls (as currently implemented) without serious issues regarding competitive play.

Smash Balls, like certain stages, completely undermine good character balance. Supers, in and of themselves, can be balanced fairly trivially in traditional fighters by simply tweaking damage and hitstun values; Smash has to deal with knockback values and move persistence, as well, which are non-trivial (if all moves were non-persistent, like Great Aether or Critical Hit, for instance, instead of like Super Sonic or Landmasters, then balance would be much simpler). Adding the variable of super acquisition through item acquisition super-simplifies balance, but in a bad way: it simply makes unviable any character with sub-par movement. Ganon may have a great Final Smash, but his inability to get the Smash Ball consistently makes the balance of the move meaningless: he will rarely get the ball, and thus will rarely use his Final Smash.

The mere existence of the Smash Ball over-prioritizes multiple character traits, including movement speed (especially air movement), multi-hit attacks, and high burst damage. Characters without those traits become less viable, regardless of the relative balance of their Final Smashes, because of their inability to get the Smash Ball. This naturally results in a less diverse viable cast.

This pretty much sums up how annoyed I am with the imbalance of smash balls. I love playing as DK, but his final smash is so useless that I can barely justify getting it. The only reason I try to go for it is to prevent my opponent from getting it, and if they have ranged attacks or better jumping abilities it's an uphill battle. This was my number one reasoning why I wish the smash ball was some sort of combo meter that you built up.

I also suppose that it would be more balanced if you build energy even if you take damage. Maybe if you deal 100% damage or take 150% damage it would fill to full (and by that I don't mean one or the other, both dealing/receiving damage fill the meter together). I recognize that this brings in the problems of knocking an opponent of the stage and THEN using your final smash, which personally I feel should only justify nerfing the smashes altogether. Like someone said earlier, the final smash ball shouldn't be so powerful that the fight instantly focuses on getting the ball rather than your opponents, and nerfing final smashes to around 30% to 40% attacks would help alleviate the focus on them.

But anyway, as they stand now it is more than obvious that they can't be used in competitive play. Which is fine, I enjoy both doing intense 1v1 matches and FFA matches with all items on. But it would be nice to have final smash attacks in my competitive 1v1 matches. Because they are fun, and they are cool attacks. I just wish they were more balanced, and more accessible for all characters to get.

 

[Airrider]

The smash ball is such a **** idea. Since people always turn items off you cant balance out characters with it. But if there was a combo meter, you could! Imagine if all characters are perfectly balanced without items, and then you put smash ball on. Sonic Final Smash > Mario Final Smash. Unless they balance them out really, really well. But really, go with a super/combo meter whatever.

 

[Ove]

The smash ball is such a **** idea. Since people always turn items off you cant balance out characters with it. But if there was a combo meter, you could! Imagine if all characters are perfectly balanced without items, and then you put smash ball on. Sonic Final Smash > Mario Final Smash. Unless they balance them out really, really well. But really, go with a super/combo meter whatever.

There's nothing wrong with having different "Super Combos." Actually, that might be a benefitting factor for balancing. A character can be relatively bad, but have a very useful "Super Combo," making it better.

 

[Airrider]

Exactly. But i think there should be two of them, like in naruto 4. 1 single target and 1 multi target with less damage for example. Combo meter ftw. Or just nothing.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

It would be nice if characters had little boosts to there design that a meter would give. But keep the smashball there. Its a nice little niche to the game and I like how adverse the effects of each final smash are such as with luigi. He slows everyone down giving time to hit them with an UpB. Or peach simply puts people to sleep and she can heal herself if need be. The diversity is nice.

 

[Ussi]

Final smashes should just be strong attacks (like full charge smash power) or a slight boost in power via transformation. Not a auto kill or invincible mode where you can only hope you don't lose a fresh life.

 

[Hypercat-Z]

I see we all agree that final smash should be more balanced.
You think Mario's FS sucks compared to Sonic's ones? Look at Luigi's FS! What were they thinking??
Plus, IMHO, the smash balls should appear very late in the match, when things have gone very far. So even the players that have a big disvantage (like 150% versus 50% of damage) will kept fighting hard because they know they could get a twist from a final smash, and the players that are in vantage will not relax too much for the same reason.

 

[DxBOY15]

I think the final smash feature introduced in Brawl was good. The only disappointment was the crew from Star Fox. They developers should re-design Falco's final smash to be an Arwing since he's the Ace Pilot of Star Fox. As for Wolf, they should extend his final smash time.

 

[Frostwraith]

I think a great idea would be to have a power meter and once it hits the max, the character started glowing (just like what happens when you get a Smash Ball in Brawl) and you could press the special and normal move buttons at the same time (B+A) to use the Final Smash.

The Smash Ball item could either be:
- an instant power meter fill
- a free Final Smash (meaning the power meter wouldn't be used for that FS and giving the potential to use to FS in a row)

 

[Hypercat-Z]

I think the final smash feature introduced in Brawl was good. The only disappointment was the crew from Star Fox. They developers should re-design Falco's final smash to be an Arwing since he's the Ace Pilot of Star Fox. As for Wolf, they should extend his final smash time.

Uhmmm... This is my idea:
Fox FS= Landmaster
Falco FS= Arwing
Wolf FS= Landmaster or Arwing ramdomly

Also:

Sonic FS= Super Sonic or Weresonic ramdomly

 

[DxBOY15]

Uhmmm... This is my idea:
Fox FS= Landmaster
Falco FS= Arwing
Wolf FS= Landmaster or Arwing ramdomly

Also:

Sonic FS= Super Sonic or Weresonic ramdomly

That's actually a good idea. It be nice if each character would have 2 different final smashes. A cool feature would be during the character select, you had the choice to pick which Final Smash you want to use during the fight.

Like how you mentioned, for Sonic's final smash, you can select either Super Sonic or Weresonic.

 

[BluePikmin11]

It's not good idea, some characters aren't combo-based. And if the combo meter were to multiply by combos, some characters would be at a huge disadvantage.

 

[Cool Daddy Booty Funk]

It's not good idea, some characters aren't combo-based. And if the combo meter were to multiply by combos, some characters would be at a huge disadvantage.

I meant that rather than a combo meter its more designed around how much damage you give/receive. I just couldn't think of a better name.

Because Ganondorf doesn't need to be at an even larger disadvantage.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Wolf FS= Landmaster or Arwing ramdomly

Also:

Sonic FS= Super Sonic or Weresonic ramdomly

How about no. They should have one or the other, don't make them random.

Plus, i thought everybody agreed that the Werehog was a really dumb idea?

 

[Hypercat-Z]

First: I didn't meant all the characters having two FS. Maybe only someones.
Second: There might be a secret trigger to activate one or the other final smasher.
Third: I don't think the werehog was a dumb idea. Maybe crazy (enough to fit in SSB4) but not dumb.
Fourth: Since Mario has a sort of Shin-Hadouken as FS, how about giving Luigi a sort of Shin-Shoryuken?

 

[3Bismyname]

i pretty much see most characters getting new final smashes for this game. with the exception of a few like Samus or Sonic just cause... well those were really perfect for them? i doubt characters are gonna get 2 final smashes. i doubt it'll change to a meter. the item seems more fitting for smash. why don't we just talk about what new final smashes we could see for each character?

 

[Hypercat-Z]

why don't we just talk about what new final smashes we could see for each character?

I approve. I already saw my one for Luigi.
The negative zone thought is not totally a bad idea, if improved, but I see it more fitting some evil/prankster character rather than Luigi.

 

[3Bismyname]

I approve. I already saw my one for Luigi.
The negative zone thought is not totally a bad idea, if improved, but I see it more fitting some evil/prankster character rather than Luigi.

i see Luigi's new final smash being more referenced to Luigi's Mansion. like let's say he puts the Poltergust in reverse and a bunch of ghost come out attacking everyone. or something along those lines

 

[Big-Cat]

It's not good idea, some characters aren't combo-based. And if the combo meter were to multiply by combos, some characters would be at a huge disadvantage.

Then make it where the meter gain amount is move specific.

 

[Hypercat-Z]

i see Luigi's new final smash being more referenced to Luigi's Mansion. like let's say he puts the Poltergust in reverse and a bunch of ghost come out attacking everyone. or something along those lines

Uhumm... That's neat!

 

[Super FOG]

Actually, the Smash Ball mechanics turns around the number One:

Only One Smash Ball appears per time, only One can get the ball, and the character can perform your Final Smash only Once. This mechanics should be kept, it works perfectly in a party fighter like Smash Bros., but I agree that the Final Smashes theirselves need to be more balanced and less gamebreaking.

Not only Landmasters but any transformation Final Smash domains the gameplay when Smash Ball is on, I don't like transformation Final Smashes, I thought that a Final Smash should be an extremely powerful technique that outlast the enemies in a show of explosions and visual effects, Mario's Mario Finale and Ike's Great Aether are my favourite Final Smashes because I consider them the most visually beautiful ones in the game, my main expectation with SSB4 is the chance to we have more giant beams, energy explosions and massive combos as Final Smashes, it's more satisfying playing with Final Smashes and being able to KO my opponent unleashing a really and visually powerful attack on him, not with a wicked transformation.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I think Final Smashes are fine the way they are. Simply re-balance them. Take away two of the Landmasters and call it a day.

 

[Anonymous777]

The meter idea sounds great to me but i think every final smash should be like Ikes meaning its either a hit or miss for balancing issues. If you hit, theyre dead or recieve a lot of damage. If you miss, tough luck. Also i think every final smash should have a sick cutscene relevant to the character as some, like Mario's, were not. For example, this time Mario should initiate his final smash(by pressing both a & b, so final smash mode doesnt affect his fireballs if he decides to hold it) like Ike but hits you with his cape. If you get hit you go into a daze like when Falcon hits you with his final smash. Mario leaps into the air and grabs a cape power up then proceeds to pick you up and lift you into orbit then smashes you into the ground at mach 3 speed. Instant KO or over 50% KO, you decide.

 

[Hypercat-Z]

Final Smashes balanced: Yes! aFinal Smashes as simhilar as possible: NO!
I think one of the funniest thing of the fina,l smashes was such being so various and different. And while I think some of them should be remade from zero, I hope Nintendo will keep the variety politic.

On another note, I still think Luigi deserves a dragon punch FS, doing it surrounded by an aura shaped like the dragon bosses of Super Mario Galaxy 2:

 

[Mari]

The Final Smashes do need to be Balanced, I mean, Mario FS< Sonic FS (Not that I'm complaining.)

And if they redo the FS for each character AND Balanced all of the FS at the same time, I'm sold.

 

[Gust14]

Ugh, smash balls is one the features that dissapointed me the most about brawl. I don't like when my fightning game match suddenly turns into a chase a ball match... sometimes the ball is 2 hits short from breaking and the pace gets all slow and akward... its so dumb. A meter or something like super sony bros system would be nice, anything but an item...

 

[Super FOG]

In a game like Smash Bros., this mechanics works perfectly. I like the limitation of only one being able to use a Final Smash.

 

[grizby2]

ive said this before.. but i'll say it again. (a BIG "IMO" here) final smashes should stay as a move you get when you break the smash ball.
in other words, there should be NO natural way to "build up" a final smash. no meter, no nothing. just keep it as an item.

call me crazy.. but,
character balance should NEVER be based on weather their final smash is bad or good. people just dont get it. smash bros isn't a tradition fighting game, theres NO LIFE BAR, theres NO TRUE COMBO SYSTEM, theres NO INFINITE AIR JUGGLING. theres damage percentages, knock-back, running in all directions, double jumps, platforms, grabbing on ledges, and lets not forget the GIANT PIT where if you fall into it YOU DIE. unless ive been hit up-side the head with a sledge hammer, im pretty positive all the installments of smash bros have been like that?

i mean come on! we've all played the game right? thats why we're all here. ya know?
if there were some kind of.. "smash meter", then you'd have to expect seeing multiple final smashes in one match (thats a huge "duh", my bad). now that i think about it, that might add another factor in trying to balance the game. :|
the only way i'd see the meter thing working out is if the final smashes were seriously watered down, or if they simply gave some of the characters less lethal final smashes (and not alot of characters really big pool of moves to select from ). again guys. IMO IMO IMO IMO

oh, im in total agreement for the whole re-balancing idea. yup yup