reasonable request to pmbr

[asd_]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQWjySS3Y3k&feature=youtu.be

remove the bump up once bomb mode ends and crawling begins, messes up movement if you're trying to transition between crawling/sprinting/wd ooc etc.

disclaimer: not my voice

 

[Chevy]

I actually am bothered by this also. Not sure how they'd go about changing it, but I would appreciate it.

 

[Litt]

Im pretty sure this is one of the things they are indeed working on, because it does not look intentional and im sure they are aware of it, and just waiting for the next release to patch it. They had to do a lot of work to the bombs from brawl so they would explode on contact, and for the longest time they had problems with samus's CCing, so its only natural for there to be a few bugs to get out at first.

 

[asd_]

I talked to vanguard, they are aware of it

 

[Litt]

I talked to vanguard, they are aware of it

Lol I just said I am sure they are aware of it, next patch you can expect that fixed, as well as the grapple tethering problems too

 

[asd_]

as well as the grapple tethering problems too

i asked vanguard about the teather problems, they might try to implement melee teathering, at least for samus

 

[KingChaos]

I honestly hate melee grapple tethering and I hope they do not change it to that. If they do I probably will not even want to play Samus anymore. I liked melee Samus but the stuff you can do with brawl Samus' tether is amazing and if thats gone it will take so much fun out of my ledge game.

 

[Chevy]

I love Melee tethering. I can't really play Melee because I'm so used to all the niceties in PM, but the tether system was leagues deeper and more fun. Sure, you lose tether drop into re-tether, but you gain all the momentum jank and walljump shenanigans that come with Melee tether. Also, it can hit people and attach to walls, instead of just losing it's hitbox and acting completely differently because you're an arbitrarily close distance from the ledge. It will obviously take some getting used to, and is probably a recovery nerf on most maps, but it's worth it in my opinion.

 

[Litt]

I honestly hate melee grapple tethering and I hope they do not change it to that. If they do I probably will not even want to play Samus anymore. I liked melee Samus but the stuff you can do with brawl Samus' tether is amazing and if thats gone it will take so much fun out of my ledge game.

Yeah sorry dude, but melee grapple gives samus so many more options and makes her more viable of a character, the instant grapple flat out tells your opponent where you are gonna be and its a free punish for better players, just because your friends don't punish your tether properly, does not mean its a better alternative to tethering to all parts of the stage

 

[KingChaos]

You can cancel your tether into another one for a stall or into up b to get those people hogging the ledge to try an punish you. You then get follow up options against them if they are hit with the up b. You only get punished if your predictably just pulling up right away everytime. I played tournaments in brawl where Samus was bad and did very well with the use of the grapple cancels. I don't just play "my friends". No one has punished my Tether in this game reliably because of this mix up option. grappling the stage tells the opponent ok now he is going to need up b and grab ledge and punish you trying to get on stage. It was easy to punish samus stage grabbing in melee more so than now so I don't know what you are talking about.

 

[G13_Flux]

with all due respect, i dont think theres many arguments you can come up with as to why the current tether is better than in melee. it was actually near impossible to punish the tether in melee because most of the time, samus would be so far below the stage that the opponent couldnt reach her. having something allows you to tether to ANY point on a stage, as opposed to just the edge is definitely more versatile. just because you havent been punished properly for using tethers doesnt mean that theres no one capable of doing so.

 

[Litt]

You can cancel your tether into another one for a stall or into up b to get those people hogging the ledge to try an punish you. You then get follow up options against them if they are hit with the up b. You only get punished if your predictably just pulling up right away everytime. I played tournaments in brawl where Samus was bad and did very well with the use of the grapple cancels. I don't just play "my friends". No one has punished my Tether in this game reliably because of this mix up option. grappling the stage tells the opponent ok now he is going to need up b and grab ledge and punish you trying to get on stage. It was easy to punish samus stage grabbing in melee more so than now so I don't know what you are talking about.

Chaos, you have been nice to me up until this point, so I feel bad doing this, but you are an idiot, and I say that in the nicest way possible. You have a love for the character in which I share, but you have no clue what the hell you are talking about. Having the tether go directly to the ledge gives your opponent the knowledge that you are either going to reel it in, or let go and try to him them with your up B... THATS TWO OPTIONS AND THEY HAVE A 50/50 chance of guessing right and killing you if you choose the tether release into up B... and if you do it once in a match, you are most likely gonna try it again, the second time a pro player will punish you... **** I'd punish you if you tried that **** more than once against me. Tether release into up B is a gimmick and a waiting game, however melee tethering allowed you to control where you would place your tether, AS WELL AS GIVE YOU THE OPTION TO WALL JUMP OUT OF YOUR TETHER... EVEN IF YOU DONT HAVE ANY JUMPS LEFT.............. which you could then bomb directly out of the wall jump to stall, or use the jump as a stall itself to then go into your up B.... You clearly have no grasp on how melee samus should be, and is played at the highest level, and I am sorry to say this but the calibur of players in which you are facing are below par, if they are not punishing this very noticeable and easily capitalizable situation.

 

[Narpas_sword]

You're the idiot for STILL thinking that starting posts with calling people an idiot is constructive and helpful.
Yes, i see the irony.
Try to posts your posts without the attacks.

Both methods have their merits and downfalls.

Comparing them is rather futile, as we're in a different game with different characters guarding the edge.
The only FAIR comparison would be if we had both options in PM and could see how they developed along with the metagame. But since we don't it's all speculations.

what we CAN do is see the best way to use what we DO have, even if the melee method is theoretically (and ONLY theoretically) better.

no point at all bagging on someone who is trying to point out the strengths of WHAT WE HAVE, when the alternative is not even in the game yet.

if it ever IS in the game, at that point, who knows what other balance tweaks will have happened.

 

[Litt]

You're the idiot for STILL thinking that starting posts with calling people an idiot is constructive and helpful.
Yes, i see the irony.
Try to posts your posts without the attacks.

Both methods have their merits and downfalls.

Comparing them is rather futile, as we're in a different game with different characters guarding the edge.
The only FAIR comparison would be if we had both options in PM and could see how they developed along with the metagame. But since we don't it's all speculations.

what we CAN do is see the best way to use what we DO have, even if the melee method is theoretically (and ONLY theoretically) better.

no point at all bagging on someone who is trying to point out the strengths of WHAT WE HAVE, when the alternative is not even in the game yet.

if it ever IS in the game, at that point, who knows what other balance tweaks will have happened.

OK IDIOT #2 up to bat, I won't post anything in the form of an attack, if the person who previously posted actually said something: worthwhile, intelligent, reasonable, or correct... both of you have violated, ergo, neutral game is over and here comes the punish. Of course both methods have their merrits... but the downfalls for the current tether far surpass their merits, in comparison to the melee mechanic.

You talk about us being in a different game... but its based off of the one we are trying to port over the other recovery (which they had intended to impliment from the get go but couldn't figure out how yet)... and it doesnt matter what characters are edge guarding you the fact of the matter is the melee recovery grapple is just objectively a better means of recovery... you have the hitbox of the zair out to stop oncoming opponents, you can rising grapple onto any aspect of the stage, which aside from Lylat, would only be a continued pro, and you can cancel the melee zair with bombs, which currently can not be done, along with wall jumping off the tether even if someone is hogging the ledge and you sweet spotted it perfectly. MORE OPTIONS MEANS LESS CHANCE OF PUNISH...

You talk about the metagame that develops around PM current tether... here is you stepping up to the plate and looking like a real idiot here, and here I use idiot in the meanest possible way because Narpas, on top of being a troll, you seriously just dont understand this game well. THERE CAN'T BE ANY METAGAME REGARDING THE TETHER BESIDES TETHER RELEASE INTO another option like wall jump or up b... both of which put you in a disadvantageous position and can easily be dealt with and read... Chaos was complaining because he would actually have to put in work to sweet spot and learn the timing of the zair instead of magically being lifted back to the ledge with the tether, on top of never realizing how bad of a position he is putting himself in from the pure lack of better players in his area.

So narpas, I have told you this a number of times, do not speak with me, I don't care to hear your crap, because it has never been: worthwhile, intelligent, reasonable, or correct.

 

[Chevy]

Melee tether is pretty much better, but it's worth noting that if you save your double-jump you can cancel your tether into virtually any aerial option and punish edgeguard attempts. This isn't always viable, but it's better than nothing.


Additionally:

Quit arguing, you're tearing this family apart!

 

[Litt]

Melee tether is pretty much better, but it's worth noting that if you save your double-jump you can cancel your tether into virtually any aerial option and punish edgeguard attempts. This isn't always viable, but it's better than nothing.


Additionally:

Quit arguing, you're tearing this family apart!

Punish is a rather strong word choice there Chevy, even with a jump, the more likely option to stop an edge guard would be up air, and best option being nair, least likely being ice fair. None of which put you in an advantageous position, and if they just hold the ledge, you are still rather helpless, even with your jump down there.

*Side note: you can cancel melee's grapple as well through the rising grapple method into an aerial as well, and retain your jump even after the aerial out of the zair is performed.*

*Other pro/con I forgot to mention for the PM tether, you get 3 of them off stage instead of just 1 in melee, but thats an easy fix for the PMBR team to change 1 to 3, and con: the grapple just fails after a 4th attempt of use off stage before touching the stage again.

 

[Chevy]

Options aren't fantastic for sure. But I could see a lazy Mario ledge-drop N-air being punished by an early tether cancel->double jump towards stage->D-air. It's all theory and pretty much assuming ideal conditions, but the more options the better.

 

[Litt]

Options aren't fantastic for sure. But I could see a lazy Mario ledge-drop N-air being punished by an early tether cancel->double jump towards stage->D-air. It's all theory and pretty much assuming ideal conditions, but the more options the better.

Yeah, Chevy that scenario makes zero sense because the nair would hit you first, and you are assuming its a lazy mario and not a smart, and actually intelligent player that waits :/... if anything you immediately cancel and try to stage spike the mario with a nair of your own or an ice fair... but the mario can stage tech that into another Nair, you no longer have your jump saved, and now you die...

 

[Chevy]

I'm not saying it's likely, but the actual described scenario still makes sense. If the Mario just ledge-drop nairs, which hits reeling tethers, and you cancel the tether before you swing under him, you will be to the right of him. Double jump above him->dair. Yes it's not great, just meant to be an example of the perfect punish against a lazy edge-guard. It's not really important, I'm not going to defend Brawl tether, I'd just like to bring current available options to light.

 

[Litt]

I'm not saying it's likely, but the actual described scenario still makes sense. If the Mario just ledge-drop nairs, which hits reeling tethers, and you cancel the tether before you swing under him, you will be to the right of him. Double jump above him->dair. Yes it's not great, just meant to be an example of the perfect punish against a lazy edge-guard. It's not really important, I'm not going to defend Brawl tether, I'd just like to bring current available options to light.

You essentially waste 1/3 grapples off stage on the off change they are lazy... and your double jump.... just on the off chance you can get a dair against a stupid opponent.... yup makes sense... go to a real tourney and see how that works out for ya buddy

 

[WizKid911]

I like how you guys are just making PM grapple seem like its impossible to get back on stage. You can air dodge back, forward, up, down, and diagonal in either direction. You can stall your dodge if the try and jump out and attack you. There are options out of tether. I wasnt as good and I did not research grapple recovery in melee but being hit out of tether so many times forces you to find better options. I would be interested in seeing the melee grabble work in pm. It would suck not having the pm grapple on stages without bigger sides though. Whatever they decide to do with her grapple will still be effective regardless.

Edit: Haha grabble =p

 

[Chevy]

You essentially waste 1/3 grapples off stage on the off change they are lazy... and your double jump.... just on the off chance you can get a dair against a stupid opponent.... yup makes sense... go to a real tourney and see how that works out for ya buddy

I feel like you're missing the point.

 

[Litt]

Im not missing the point, I just refuse to bring it forward because i already addressed it and you felt it was necessary to bring it forward again just to prove your point...

 

[Narpas_sword]

bork bork bork

Yea, sure thing buddy.

you know i'm not going to stop because you tell me to right? that is definitely not how forums work. if it was, your posts would be nice to read.

Think i'm going to change my tactic here though, and just edit your posts i quote to be less hostile. may make for an easier read, and then when I reply to you, I can reply to the new you, not the ****tard you. Will mean i'll be less inclined to treat you like the low social skilled muppet you are, and hopefully the boards will seem less siot because of it.

The new you is going to be sweet.

so

Of course both methods have their merits, but in my opinion the downfalls for the current tether far surpass their merits, in comparison to the melee mechanic.

As you mentioned. PM and melee are separate games, but PM is based off of the one we are trying to port over the other recovery (which they had intended to implement from the get go but couldn't figure out how yet).

I feel as though it doesnt matter what characters are edge guarding you, I believe that the melee recovery, in melees environment is a better means of recovery than the current mechanic in place for PM.

The advantages of the melee tethers are as follows:
You have the hitbox of the zair out to stop oncoming opponents, you can rising grapple onto any aspect of the stage, which aside from Lylat which proves more difficult than other stages, this is a plus.
It is possible to cancel the melee zair with bombs, creating another option for mixup.
and it's possible to wall jump off the tether even if someone is hogging the ledge and you sweet spotted it perfectly.

These options mean you can mix up your recovery even more, and create extra areas that the guarder must cover.

You mention the metagame that develops around PM current tether, however, i must misunderstand you, because as i see it, after you tether with the current mechanic, there are only two options to mix up, these are cancelling into an upB, or cancelling into another tether. will you kindly explain what you mean so i may better understand your point?

Ah, i'm sorry, i will explain the metagame point better.

What i meant is that we are unable to do anything different with the tether, (as you said, there are limited options). What the point was meant to say is that the only way we could fairly compare two tethers in different environments would be to have them in the same game, and allow users the option. in which case we could observe how people adjust their play and recover now that they have both means of recovery.
Would you like any more clarification on that?

regarding your other points, yes, I whole heartedly agree, melee tether was much better, but again, it's not something we have the luxury of using currently.
Even if it does eventually get implemented into this new game, it would be very unlikely to be exactly the same, due to other restraints, balancing and whathaveyou that goes on.

 

[Litt]

^ that was the first post you have ever made that was legitimately intelligent, i now know you have the ability to be reasonable and intelligent, but its little too late dude, and our bridge is burned

 

[Narpas_sword]

You know I'm mirroring your attitude towards others in the hope that you got so frustrated with me that you realise that this is how others feel towards you... Right?

Like on the Simpson's when Nelson 'ha haws' to his reflection.

 

[Litt]

Except I don't troll people, I tell people how it is, and if they don't like it, then they should learn to lighten up and broaden their horizons. You are no mirror, you actively instigate me through meaningless posts meant to annoy me in hopes you get a rise, where I just shoot you down over and over, but it seems that you believe you get through, and that is why you continue to persist the trolling. Fortress gave up, so did Pizzcato and many others. I will not change the way I address people on here, when they try to assert they are correct when they are wrong on a number of fronts, however when a player asks for help, I am more than courteous towards them. Personally I feel I am like this towards the fellow sami on this board, because the only ones who seem to have a grasp of how to play the character at the highest level of competitive play are Dyna and Esam, and neither of them post on here, and when someone tries to assert they are right, when they are clearly wrong it irritates me and makes me feel the need to knock them down a peg or two so they realize their faults and try to improve them. Granted this may not be the best way I realize, but its who I am, and I enjoy the role I play, accept it and move on narpas.

 

[Chevy]

Im not missing the point, I just refuse to bring it forward because i already addressed it and you felt it was necessary to bring it forward again just to prove your point...

I was just illustrating an ideal scenario, it's not necessary to point out all of the flaws in what's supposed to be a perfect situation. Given the interactions in the situation described, it's not difficult to put together the additional options you have out of tether if you save your jump. Anyway, it's semantics at this point and I'm done with this.

 

[Litt]

You are done with this because you lost... you can't argue your point any further because you have no new points to bring forth, therefore you choose to leave the conversation. Also ideal scenarios are never really present, thats why you argue based off the rules, instead of exceptions to those rules (aka ideal or perfect scenarios)

 

[Chevy]

Lost what? Are you really so immature that you see every debate as a win/lose scenario? My point was that there is a third option out of tether. I demonstrated that point to further the discussion and bring to light an option that players may not have considered. I even admitted from the get-go that it was an unlikely scenario, but you jumped on my ass anyway, desperate to find something to argue about. I am on your side about tethers. But no, I don't think "punish" is a strong word. If someone gets hit for being outplayed off-stage, I think the word punish is perfectly applicable given the resulting situation from the interaction.

 

[Litt]

Lost what? Are you really so immature that you see every debate as a win/lose scenario? My point was that there is a third option out of tether. I demonstrated that point to further the discussion and bring to light an option that players may not have considered. I even admitted from the get-go that it was an unlikely scenario, but you jumped on my *** anyway, desperate to find something to argue about. I am on your side about tethers. But no, I don't think "punish" is a strong word. If someone gets hit for being outplayed off-stage, I think the word punish is perfectly applicable given the resulting situation from the interaction.

THAT IS NOT A THIRD OPTION... that is still option 2... a tether cancel.... whether you up B out of it or not, once your opponent sees you tether the stage, you get 2 options, reel in, or let go

 

[Chevy]

Technically, at that specific junction you have two options, yes. But as soon as you cancel the tether you have at least two options, and many more if you still have a jump.

 

[asd_]

WELL THIS ESCALATED QUICKLY
stfu barbie Chevy is just helping people realize an option you have with brawl teather that works really well sometimes, yes melee teather is better

 

[Narpas_sword]

WELL THIS ESCALATED QUICKLY
stfu barbie Chevy is just helping people realize an option you have with brawl teather that works really well sometimes, yes melee teather is better

Yeah, there were horses, and a man on fire, and I killed a guy with a trident.

 

[Oatmeal.]

Geez people, chill. Smash Bros. is nothing to get this worked up over.

 

[Litt]

WELL THIS ESCALATED QUICKLY
stfu barbie Chevy is just helping people realize an option you have with brawl teather that works really well sometimes, yes melee teather is better

hey asd_ I never told you to shut the **** up, so show me the same respect, especially since you are a scrub, you should not be speaking like that to your fellow sami

 

[GeZ]

I used to butt heads with Klit (Barbie) until I realized he was usually right. Like he is here. So while it is harsh, Barbie's right, you guys wrong, stahp.

 

[Nannas]

Guys, Its really easy to talk to barbie on here. Basically all he wants is the betterment of samus in the metagame. I have lurked on these boards for a good long while and yeah he can be rude at times but when some new samus player comes through here saying "look what I found" or states something as fact without testing it, he doesnt want future samuses coming through and reading any false info.

For example, Im a brand spankin new samus player and recently I stumbled upon an option out of bomb that I though was pretty cool. However I know nothing about samus' advanced play so I would simply ASK barbie like this.

"Hey Barbie, I was in training mode and saw that when you lay a bomb right on an opponent and get popped up, you can footstool them. Is this a valid tactic to use or are there better options?"

however it could have gone something like this.

"Whoa guys I just found the best tech evar. You can footstool out of a bomb lay and then fastfall dair them for free, Im gonna name it the Nannabomb combo."

Notice that I made so many assumptions there. 1) Apparently I discovered this. 2) it is automatically a good option
aaaand now I sound like a tool.

SO @ Litt I did find this in my practicing. Any thoughts on if it is a solid option or are there better options after a bomb hit on an opponent?

 

[Narpas_sword]

this is all well and true. but he's still a **** for no good reason* to people.


noone likes misinformation.
but noone likes being told "im sorry but youre an idiot" either. (saying sorry before hand, is really jsut an extra kick in the nuts, we know youre not sorry, or you wouldnt do it)

if he replied to misinformation is a NICE way, helping out the person where they are wrong thyed feel less attacked and probably more likely to listen to reason instead of another thread full of flaming.





*his reason is not a good reason

 

[Chevy]

Guys, Its really easy to talk to barbie on here. Basically all he wants is the betterment of samus in the metagame. I have lurked on these boards for a good long while and yeah he can be rude at times but when some new samus player comes through here saying "look what I found" or states something as fact without testing it, he doesnt want future samuses coming through and reading any false info.

For example, Im a brand spankin new samus player and recently I stumbled upon an option out of bomb that I though was pretty cool. However I know nothing about samus' advanced play so I would simply ASK barbie like this.

"Hey Barbie, I was in training mode and saw that when you lay a bomb right on an opponent and get popped up, you can footstool them. Is this a valid tactic to use or are there better options?"

however it could have gone something like this.

"Whoa guys I just found the best tech evar. You can footstool out of a bomb lay and then fastfall dair them for free, Im gonna name it the Nannabomb combo."

Notice that I made so many assumptions there. 1) Apparently I discovered this. 2) it is automatically a good option
aaaand now I sound like a tool.

SO @ Litt I did find this in my practicing. Any thoughts on if it is a solid option or are there better options after a bomb hit on an opponent?

I tried this out, and even with Samus' short footstool jump(which is apparently a thing) she goes far too high to get anything off before they can react. I think it's just better to drop another bomb or try to space your D-air to potentially shield-poke if they have any damage on their shield. This chains nicely into an aerial bomb which usually guarantees another D-air, rinse and repeat until they tech the D-air properly. Worth noting is that bombs will jab reset until fairly high percents on the whole cast, so if they are knocked down and you can land a bomb it guarantees another D-air. Or you can waveland out of the bomb into something.