Ranking moves in Characters (Round 21: Discussing Down-Special)

[kenniky]

• Doc with data

Please freeze the first column, it's nigh impossible to read otherwise

 

[ARGHETH]

Please freeze the first column, it's nigh impossible to read otherwise

I'll do it when I'm not on my phone.

EDIT: Done.

 

[JosePollo]

Lucas's Z-air is extremely good. It's a good zoning tool but it's also an extremely good whiff punish tool. It gives access to Z-air -> Footstool infinite on around 10 characters and Z-air F-smash is true on more than half of the cast around kill percents.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrYfRj_nz7c&feature=youtu.be

Also Lucas's PSI magnet is a lot better than Ness's and should be at least one tier higher. It's a good stalling move that can be used offstage to bait approaches it has a hitbox that semi-spikes people on hit and the healing muiltplier is 2,5x. Ness "only" has 1,5x. This is also the reason that Lucas/Lucario is such a good doubles team.

Not just this but it helps to further extend his recovery and mix up his movement, in general, with b-reverses and wavebounces. Lucas has a pretty terrible double jump, so magnet helps to stop his upward momentum for situations where you SDI and double jump out of, say, a rapid jab, allowing you to get a punish where his slow double jump wouldn't, otherwise.

Additionally, magnet gives Lucas footstool > magnet OoS, which can kill or gimp characters near the ledge at high percents and puts them at a very disadvantageous position off-stage due to hitting at 25 degrees. I make specific mention of this because Lucas is pretty bad OoS. His fastest non-defensive options are jab (frame 9), down tilt (frame 10). Footstool is frame 6 minimum OoS which lets him punish a lot more low landing lag attacks than he'd be able to otherwise (think Mario or Fox trying to cross-up shield with nair--10 frames of landing lag). Niche, but certainly worth mentioning.

EDIT: forgot to mention, characters with low footstool animations (Diddy, Olimar, etc.) can avoid footstool > magnet due to how small the hitbox is (it's barely bigger than the bright light at the center of the magnet).

 

[Abat Wolf]

Roy has an amazing nair. I'm actually quite shocked people don't see it tbh. His nair is a combo move that combos into itself a deceptively large number of times for a crap ton of damage and comes out frame 6 as well as first hit of nair comboing into pretty much any other move in his arsenal...

 

[ARGHETH]

Since discussion has pretty much died, we'll move on to pummels, I guess.

Spoiler: Zair

 

[arbustopachon]

Zard's pummel is relatively fast and deals 2% per hit making it pretty decent.

Samus has one of the fastest pummels allowing her to unstall her other moves quickly.

If im not mistaken Jigglypuff can get the most pummel damage before the opponent escapes from grab.

Edit: Found this video which showcases all the pummels.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Pummels: https://smashboards.com/threads/pummel-damage-data.372509/

Boom. All but DLC already figured out. Can be decided by raw numbers not just gut feel.

 

[ARGHETH]

Can someone figure out DLC? I need that before making the list.

After this is probably a revision period or something.

 

[arbustopachon]

I labbed M2 against a lvl3 300% cpu mario on vs, i will later try Bayo and Lucas.

M2: 48%

 

[ARGHETH]

Missing: Ryu, Roy, Lucas, Cloud, Bayonetta, and Corrin.

 

[Nysyr]

Quick note about the pummels, the faster ones will not refresh staling if buffered (i.e Fox's and Lucario's). How difficult not buffering those is should factor into how good they actually are.

For that reason I would rate Lucario's lower especially since the output damage isn't very good. Probably C tier unless you get the timing correctly to unstale moves.

 

[arbustopachon]

I tried Lucas on the same situation as mewtwo and i got 56%. Cpu might be varying the amount of mashing it's doing tho as i often got around 55% and 54%, so take these results as estimates.

 

[ARGHETH]

I tried Lucas on the same situation as mewtwo and i got 56%. Cpu might be varying the amount of mashing it's doing tho as i often got around 55% and 54%, so take these results as estimates.

A few percents don't really make a difference, either way Lucas is in the same spot (between Buster Shulk/Mewtwo and Peach)

Actually, I'm probably going to need to rank Olimar, Shulk, and Lucario separately, since they have differing pummels. Lucario is going in C, but what about Shulk and Olimar?

 

[Nah]

Might wanna put Robin's on the low side. While each pummel does good percent, (~3%) it's also slow has hell, which makes it less good

 

[ARGHETH]

Might wanna put Robin's on the low side. While each pummel does good percent, (~3%) it's also slow has hell, which makes it less good

It's actually apparently second worst in percent according to the chart, only in front of Greninja.

 

[arbustopachon]

Okay, tested Bayo again in the same situation as Lucas and M2. She dealt 40%.

 

[Masonomace]

I like what Nysyr brought up about pummels. Even though & have rapid pummels which may warrant a high ranking for them, you have to time your button presses for 'em so that they successfully unstale your moves. This is one of the several reasons what I believe matters into ranking a pummel:

• Base damage
• Bonus:Active frames
• Bonus: Hitbox (Really??? yes really)
• Initial hitlag
• Possible hitlag multiplier(s)
• Interruptibility (more pummels or throw)
• Mashing out

Overall hitlag might seem virtually useless in the grand scheme, but it contributes to the fact that it hinders the pummel. So the big things to keep an open mind about IMO are damage, overall hitlag amount, mashing out, & Interruptibility.

's pummel to me is C-tier even though it comes off as D-tier. Here's why:

• 普 & 翔 deal 3%. 疾 deals 2.4%. 盾 deals 2.1%. 斬 deals 4.2%. And 撃 deals 1.5%.
  
  
• Only active for one frame being F5. However, the hitlag from hitting the victim extends the duration should another hurtbox be within range.
  
  
• I don't know the hitbox bubbles, but don't go near a pummeled victim until after hitlag finishes lol.
  
  
• Hitlag forumla means that Shulk's Pummel has ~9 freeze-frames in Vanilla Jump & Buster, or ~8 freeze-frames in Speed Shield & Smash. The reason for the hitlag being so high comes from the fact that Shulk's pummel has a built-in 1.5x hitlag multiplier, but even if there's a difference of 1 freeze-frame between some of the arts (which sounds like virtually nothing), it all matters in the long run.
  
  
• Shulk acts on the 27th frame with either the startup of another pummel, or a throw. You can buffer quite early for the next pummel, but it's harder buffering a throw. What's cool is that if you're mashing pummel after pummel, you're successfully unstaling your moves in the stale-queue for each pummel-use.
  
  
• Mashing out of Shulk's pummel like for all characters is the biggest reason Shulk's pummel isn't great. Both the endlag and the hitlag are windows you can mash within in order to escape more quickly, and with a whopping total of 9 freeze-frames on top of about 25 frames of startup/cooldown, you're looking at over half a second to prepare once you get grabbed.

Also, one pummel & Bthrow in Buster deals 21% in Training Mode. Sheesh.

 

[ARGHETH]

Well, here's the first list, based mostly on damage.

Spoiler: List

Screw it, Imgur isn't working right now, so here's the list.
S: >69
A: 69-66
B: 60-65
C: 59-39
D: 38-30
E: <30

 

[TheHypnotoad]

You should also take into account how fast they are as well. For example, Ness's might not do much damage, but it's so fast that he will usually be able to get a few pummels in before needing to throw. For some of the slower pummels, you risk having your opponent break out of the grab if you do decide to pummel.

 

[JayZee1700]

Also don't forget to factor in interruptibility (How easily you can throw in between pummels) and hitboxes like .

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Not sure why hitbox should matter at all considering we aren't using doubles. Hitbox is going to hit when you have them grabbed that's... all that really matters.

 

[Masonomace]

Moves have had discussion with the thought of Doubles in mind before, but for the sake of a clean & easy discussion with no additional complications lets just go with me saying that hitboxes matter only from those few scenarios I think of. Things like say, 's Tree, 's Mech passing by, 's Bike laying on the ground, just items in general that are around that are also hit by the pummel. Shulk as my example attempting to pummel & holding their respective items or the item being on the ground around us, stuff like that.

Interesting exceptions that are at play also include things like 's Can, interractions with 's Crash Bomber sticky, 's Pikmin Latched onto you, etc..

I still stand that hitboxes aren't a main focus to ranking pummels, but I feel that they contribute a little something. Nothing that warrants a ranking difference between characters obviously. Maybe unless the best hitbox bubble for pummel could be extra brownie points or something.
---

In any case, & warrant good pummels thus their ranking could go up. Both each have a hitlag multiplier that's less than 1.0x meaning they have reduced hitlag despite of their damage output having a standard amount of freeze-frames. Pikachu's adds a 1.5x hitlag multiplier because Electric nature, but his built-in hitlag multiplier means that he does less hitlag than what you'd think. Rosalina's Pummel is active for a couple of frames if not three, which is something not a lot of character's pummels have on top of hers being quickly interruptible with more pummels or a throw. Not sure in the grand scheme cus I haven't labbed or seen all the frame data for pummels atm.

 

[ARGHETH]

Moves have had discussion with the thought of Doubles in mind before, but for the sake of a clean & easy discussion with no additional complications lets just go with me saying that hitboxes matter only from those few scenarios I think of. Things like say, 's Tree, 's Mech passing by, 's Bike laying on the ground, just items in general that are around that are also hit by the pummel. Shulk as my example attempting to pummel & holding their respective items or the item being on the ground around us, stuff like that.

Interesting exceptions that are at play also include things like 's Can, interractions with 's Crash Bomber sticky, 's Pikmin Latched onto you, etc..

I still stand that hitboxes aren't a main focus to ranking pummels, but I feel that they contribute a little something. Nothing that warrants a ranking difference between characters obviously. Maybe unless the best hitbox bubble for pummel could be extra brownie points or something.

So...anybody going to give me a source on hitboxes? Because I'm not testing every character for it.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

's Hand Slap is good because:

-It covers a long range (Ground hitbox)
-Deals insane shield pressure
-Is DK's 2nd fastest meteor smash when used in the air (first hit comes out on frame 19, his fastest is D-air on frame 14)

However, it has some downsides:

-Can't hit airborne opponents (Ground hitbox)
-High end lag; easily punished if you miss (Ground hitbox)
-First hit does not consistently combo into second, and spiking hit (Aerial and Meteor hitbox)

I'd say C tier, IMO. It simply has a lot more uses than most of the D-tiers.


's Stone is good because:

-Has super armor
-Comes out pretty fast (When used on ground; comes out frame 11)
-Breaks full shields upon landing, or breaks partly damaged shields upon use on the ground
-Has high horizontal KB when used on ground, making it another good tool to edge guard characters that struggle with recovery (Cloud, Luigi, Mac, etc.)

's Stone is also bad because:

-Vulnerable for nearly a full second (28 frames) before super armor kicks in; easy punish if opponent is there to do so (Aerial)
-High end lag after the transformation; if you miss you can easily punished with something strong, which is bad due to his very lightweight (Ground and Aerial)

Again, I'd put at C-D tier; it has it's situational uses, but still has some drawbacks that keep it from being completely viable.

Console plays smash 4 at 60 fps, 28 frames is half a second friendo

 

[JayZee1700]

Console plays smash 4 at 60 fps, 28 frames is half a second friendo

Ya I know, someone else corrected me already XD thanks tho

 

[meticulousboy]

If we're going to rank pummels, we also need to take into consideration the reward for the throw that follows afterward. Someone like Yoshi may have an average grab attack, but he has no throw for KOing outright to gain a true reward, save stage control.

But to contribute to Down Specials, here are my thoughts on Peach's Vegetable.

• Never stales, should the same turnip be pulled and connect in the same thrown manner.
• As a result, it can unstale your other moves as long as it connects.
• Has the rare chance of pulling a dot eyes (second strongest turnip), stitch face, Mister Saturn, or Bob-omb.
• Still have access to your aerials as long as Peach is floating, turnip in hand or not.
• Can be held indefinitely.
• Can be recycled as long as it connects on an opponent.
• Item is generated on the first frame, so even if she gets hit during the pull animation, the item can either be in her hand or on the ground for her or the opponent to pick up.

There are some downsides to it.

• So much start up lag.
• Doesn't rebound off of shields (rip Melee)
• The move has to be done on the ground first in order for a turnip to be plucked.
• Can be grabbed by the opponent, even if it connects on them.

Not sure what rank Vegetable will be, but let me know what you think it should be. If I were to guess, I will say B if not A. It's used for edgeguarding, so there's no way it can be C.

 

[ARGHETH]

If we're going to rank pummels, we also need to take into consideration the reward for the throw that follows afterward. Someone like Yoshi may have an average grab attack, but he has no throw for KOing outright to gain a true reward, save stage control.

Why would we do that? We already ranked throws, pummels are their own thing.

 

[meticulousboy]

True. But I guess you can just base them on their own account.

 

[ARGHETH]

If no one else is going to say anything, here's the next list.

Spoiler: pummel

Pikachu B->A
(Rosa didn't move up because she was at the very low end of B tier, so I figured that she'd just have moved higher up the tier. Pikachu, on the other hand, was at the top of B tier damage-wise so he moved)
Ness C->B
Fox C->B

Next, we're doing revisions! First, Uair.
List for reference:

Spoiler: list

 

[SteadyDisciple]

I agree with most of the Up-air's for characters I'm familiar with. Only change I might make is moving Greninja up a little bit. Intangibility on his legs gives the move a very large disjoint, it can be comboed into for damage out of a couple moves, it can kill off the top as part of some combos, and Uair spikes are still a thing.

EDIT: also, I'm not super familiar with the character, but Palutena seems too low as well.

 

[arbustopachon]

Zard's Uair.

Hits from frame 12 to 15, faf is 46, deals 13%, launches the opponent in an angle of 85, has 30 bkb, 105 kbg, 20 frames of landing lag and starts autocancelling after frame 41. Zard's head is intangible during frames 11-15.

This move is pretty much Bowser's Uair only slower and weaker but with better landing lag.

Zard can combo into it out of d-throw. At around 90% D-throw to U-air is a kill confirm if the opponent does not di away from Zard. Most people will di away from Zard's d-throw tho.

Falling Uair combos into Zard's u-tilt and U-smash at around 30%. You can get some nasty stuff like U-air> U-tilt> U-smash for 37% on fastfallers.

I'd bump it to C. It might be slow but it hits rather hard, has intangibility frames, good range, not awful landing lag and can be used as a combo tool.

 

[littlepuff]

Villagers up air should be A.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Roy's Uair to B or A. Landing Uair is extremely good, has a good hitbox and combos into a ton of of moves at virtually any perfect. Low Landing lag makes it somewhat difficult to punish as well. Its also pretty fast, allowing it to break some combos.

Falco's Uair to B. Landing Uair can chain into itself and other moves like Bair and Nair at various percents reliably. Combos from U-throw too.

Mewtwo's Uair down to B. Rather slow compared to a majority of the Uair's in A and has nowhere near as much combo potential as some of them.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Revisions is just going to be "everyone who thinks their character is underrated clamouring to have half of their moves moved up".

Can tell you right now: 90% of the ones brought up should not be moved.

 

[TDK]

Sheik's in C seems really harsh considering it's how she gets a large amount of her kills. That and BF.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Sheik's in C seems really harsh considering it's how she gets a large amount of her kills. That and BF.

That doesn't mean its good though. It just means its her best option vertically.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

If ZSS is in S, Falcons should be in S. The only difference between the two is the reverse hitbox on Falcons and the higher damage. ZSS can combo into boost kick, sure, but Falcon can combo into footstool > dair > knee, knee, dair, another up air, and bair for kills and those aren't nearly as easy to DI out of as boost kick.

Bayonetta's up air should also be moved up to S. Beats airdodges, has more range than it should, combos into everything, can be used to gimp with the lingering bs hitbox, and it kills

 

[Routa]

If you ask me Roy should go up along with Palutena. ILOVESMASH listed some of the reasons why it is good (main reason why it works as a combo breaker is due to Roy's aerial fallspeed and Uair's hitbox placement). Perhaps B or A tier would do.

Palutena's Uair is... great. As far as I know it has best size/power ratio of any Uair. The hitbox stays long which makes it hard to AD through. I would personally put it 1 tier higher.

I personally don't think that it is necessary to put Sheik's Uair higher. It is great, but one of the main reasons why it is great is Sheik's amazing mobility and moveset in general. Tho I don't mind it being listed higher myself.

 

[MrWhYYZ]

Zard's Up-air is pretty good, It occasionally wins against Cloud's d-air thanks to the intangebility and hits like a truck. It's pretty much a discount version of Bowser's Up-air. Should be in C imo
Lucas's Up-air is good and bad at the same time. It's a killmove out of D-throw and after a jab-lock you can do a falling Up-air into rising D-air, however this is also Up-air.
The hitbox doesn't move forward so it's extremely hard to hit during neutral and is pretty much useless again smaller characters. Should be in C imo.

 

[HoSmash4]

Falcons actually should be S. Safe on landing, easy frametrap juggles and a really good combo tool. Also find it interesting how Bowser and Zard uairs are pretty much exactly the same but the fact you can combo into bower uair makes it 3 tiers better.

I'd put Marth uair 1 tier higher and pikachus 1 tier below just because of Marths insane disjoint, killin with tipper and Pikachu uair doesnt really kill, low range.