Ranking Moves for Characters (Down B)

[ARGHETH]

This is basically this thread, but the OP of that thread doesn't show up ever, so we're hopefully moving here.

Essentially, we're putting each individual move (down B, Fsmash, etc) into tier lists to determine which characters' are the best. Each move's frame data, comboability, kill power, safety, and so on are going to be considered.
Moves are not ordered within tiers.
Starting off with Down B, continuing that thread's discussion.

Spoiler: DownB

I made this list really quickly, so take pretty much everything with a grain of salt.
And...begin!

 

[Daymaster]

There is no way ZSS's Down B is better than Sheiks. Sheik's just has way more utility and combo potential and the same amount of kill power. Also Rest is terrible in this game. Also also Focus Attack is amazing.

 

[ARGHETH]

There is no way ZSS's Down B is better than Sheiks. Sheik's just has way more utility and combo potential and the same amount of kill power. Also Rest is terrible in this game. Also also Focus Attack is amazing.

Moves aren't ordered within tiers.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I personally wouldn't consider Shulk's counter to be a whole tier better than the FE crew's. Better overall? Yes. But not by that much.

I also wouldn't consider Samus to be B. It has some shieldbreaking combos/recovery assist properties yes, a long with a few other niche uses but its still not on the same level as say ROB's gyro.

Rest should be dropped down one. It was broken down pretty well in the previous topic as to why its not complete garbo, but its kill power ain't high enough for its risk.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Hrmmm I'm going to argue that Mario's FLUDD isn't good enough for A-rank. It's a phenomenal edgeguarder and the charge can be stored and held. There's just one problem. It doesn't do any damage whatsoever. This means it severely limits the options and situations that FLUDD can be used. It's great if a character has already used all of their jumps and their recovery is straight vertical. However when the character has a HORIZONTAL recovery and they end up level with or slightly above Mario it simply pushes them upwards completely ruining FLUDD'S setup or edgeguarding potential. There's also the fact that like fire breath and flamethrower FLUDD starts off shooting out straight ahead and doesn't give you a lot of time to change the angle of the spray.

TL;DR FLUDD doesn't do any damage and is only really useful for edgeguarding and stalling. It's a solid B-rank.

 

[TDK]

What makes Rock and Focus Attack about as good as each other?

 

[Nathan Richardson]

What makes Rock and Focus Attack about as good as each other?

I'm confused about this too, focus attack gives you super armor but that goes away after two hits, it can be cancelled out, the attack causes crumple allowing for combo setups, and if fully charged it can get around shields.
Rock smash, on the other hand has much longer super armor which only goes away after the rock is broken, the initial headbutt can get a kill while the 'debris' from the smashed rock can give multiple hits (I've done 30% damage on a well-timed rock smash) however that's about all rock smash does, you can B-reverse/wavebounce it but it doesn't have a ton of initial range and unlike focus attack it can't be cancelled out nor does it cause crumple.
I'd say focus attack is superior despite being a zard main.

 

[arbustopachon]

Focus attack is slower than Rocksmash at hitting you (frame 33 if not charged vs frame 24), Plus if you don't FADC it has longer endlag too. Rocksmash is also more active due to the debris.

Rocksmash can be jump cancelled to help with the range issue and chase rolls and techs.

Focus attack is better (Frame 1 armor and FADC are great), but im not sure if i'd send Zard to C.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

I'm not saying move rock smash down to C, it's damage, duration, super armor, and relative speed are too good for that. What I'm saying is move Focus Attack up to A due to it's utility.

 

[TDK]

I mean't Kirby's Rock, but I do agree that Focus Attack is much too low.

For my original question: Why is Kirby's Rock in C?

 

[ぱみゅ]

Hrmmm I'm going to argue that Mario's FLUDD isn't good enough for A-rank. It's a phenomenal edgeguarder and the charge can be stored and held. There's just one problem. It doesn't do any damage whatsoever. This means it severely limits the options and situations that FLUDD can be used. It's great if a character has already used all of their jumps and their recovery is straight vertical. However when the character has a HORIZONTAL recovery and they end up level with or slightly above Mario it simply pushes them upwards completely ruining FLUDD'S setup or edgeguarding potential. There's also the fact that like fire breath and flamethrower FLUDD starts off shooting out straight ahead and doesn't give you a lot of time to change the angle of the spray.

TL;DR FLUDD doesn't do any damage and is only really useful for edgeguarding and stalling. It's a solid B-rank.

It destroys some neutrals and may get you to an unfavourable position if you jump too much from the middle of the stage.
I may agree with either rank tho



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THAT BEING SAID, you could've asked to get the ownership of the other thread and update it yourself, with this format it may look unorganised, but I am unsure of what would be the best course of action in this particular case.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Ah kirby's rock's in C because it's grabbable (command and dash grabs destroy the move), it goes straight down despite being cancellable so you're going to miss if the opponent moves, and finally you can see it coming. Kirby's rock takes a LONG time to set up before he drops so people can react to it coming.

 

[ARGHETH]

THAT BEING SAID, you could've asked to get the ownership of the other thread and update it yourself, with this format it may look unorganised, but I am unsure of what would be the best course of action in this particular case.

Actually, can we just do that? Might be easier.

 

[Vyrnx]

I would swap Samus and WFT and move Villager and Pika up.

Deep Breathing stalls momentum in the air and she can air dodge cancel either direction, which is really good for landings and recoveries. It forces approaches and is shield cancelable. Deep Breathing lets her whole moveset kill and Deep Breathing usmash is completely lol, especially sweetspotted. Unsurprisingly for a buff move it just makes her way more threatening and gives her potential 80% combos off of nair. The heal effect is nice and its use as a landing option keeps it relevant throughout a game.

Villager's is a good trap when partially watered, it's a good ledge trap, and axe is frame 6 and powerful with moves that combo into it. Pika's is just useful for a lot of stuff.

Samus's is pretty good for landing since it reduces her hurtbox and lets her weave, plus landing near the bomb covers Samus pretty well. Obviously good for recovering too. One thing to keep in mind is that after dropping a bomb, you need to press down once you land to shorten the lag. It's also really good at covering ledge options and two framing since it's a 20 frame active hitbox, and Samus can use other moves at the ledge in tandem. It's better than the counters and reflectors so I feel like it's somewhere in between the B and C tiers since it's not as good as Gunman, Sonic down b spin dash, Deep Breathing, etc.

 

[Poisonous]

Did y'all really put Waft in B tier ROFL. Does anything need to be said about the move?

Half waft comes out frame 5, available at 55 seconds and does 20% at this point. It gains 1% every 5 seconds and at 1:50, it becomes full waft which hits frame 9 and has frame 5 superarmor. Kills at absurd %s, especially with rage (throwback to Reflex killing False's Ryu with Falling uair -> Nair -> Waft starting at 0 with max rage at MLG 2015).

Wafting on bike extends the hitbox by 30 frames. Yes, you heard right. 30 frames. You can cover getup options for the majority of the cast by spacing waft on bike correctly leaving about 80% of the cast with no options. The headbutt of waft kills early enough as well and is active for 16 frames as well.

It can be used to recover in a pinch if needed, and has tons of setups into it. Nair to waft, falling uair to waft, dair to half waft, RTC dtilt to half waft, fair to half waft works at specific % ranges, waft techchasing or punishing missed techs off moves like fair. The move is absolutely ridiculous. Waft forces characters without good projectiles to approach Wario as he actively benefits from not fighting as well.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Actually, can we just do that? Might be easier.

I need to submit it somewhere else to do that, I'll be back later with news about it (will probably merge both threads when it happens).

 

[Masonomace]

I'm easily in favor of moving up from C → B or A-tier. FA is multi-purpose & does many more things for Ryu than what a C-tier move functions as.

's Waft is also insane, I'd be in favor of moving it up a rank. I always felt that Waft hitting anything lasted a good while, but I for sure didn't know that the hitlag lasted that long when hitting a bike. Poisonous

's Thunder gets my praise & acknowledgement to move up in rank from C → B or A(?) simply because the thunder strike when buffered literally generates on frame 1 and does not stop. This results with having a psuedo-combo breaker in some moments. Also, the super-strong meteor hitbox for the thundercloud, the thunder strike hitting Pikachu on contact grants the mouse intangibility alongside the hitbox too, and produces a clean air-stall-and-fall ability when off-stage for edge-guarding. . . This move can be nuts.

's Bomb being D-tier is something I kinda question. In a vacuum it's kind of, whatever y'know, but it's a unique case for Yoshi specifically because Yoshi's Egg Shield is kinda special in that you apparently have 2 frames less of shield drop lag when nothing hits the Egg Shield. This basically means that Yoshi can dash to running around shield-dropping more swiftly. And despite that Yoshi Bomb's first hit rising is ground-only, it's frame 7. Catching anything nearby with a frame 7 kill move seems, not D-tier worthy at least to me.

. . .some of these moves are also kinda hard to rank, but the drawbacks that keep them from being rated that highly do help. Examples being 's Disable for only working on a front-facing opponent & 's Turnip only spawning while being grounded.
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To end this post, I'm alright with 's Vision being B-tier. After what we'll all see & learn about the move in due time however, the merit of the move will soar & likely be thought as A-tier.

 

[DunnoBro]

Is there some unspoken rule not to mention limit?

 

[Nemesis561]

Edit double post

 

[Nemesis561]

I know it's already been said but waft should not be below rest..... Swap them.

In my opinion Ryu and zard should swap, focus attack is just a much more important part of ryus kit than zard Rock smash

Also I may be biased but I think bowser jr should be in B tier, Mecha koopas have so much utility and is just better and a more centralizing move then things like the counters in C tier, Kirby stone, falcon kick etc.

Is there some unspoken rule not to mention limit?

I thought the same thing, isn't clouds down B easy S tier? Best move in the game at forcing an approach and the obvious stat boosts and kill moves when charged

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Don't move up Pika, Yoshi.

Ryu..... its borderline between B and C, certainly not A.

 

[Nemesis561]

Hrmmm I'm going to argue that Mario's FLUDD isn't good enough for A-rank. It's a phenomenal edgeguarder and the charge can be stored and held. There's just one problem. It doesn't do any damage whatsoever. This means it severely limits the options and situations that FLUDD can be used. It's great if a character has already used all of their jumps and their recovery is straight vertical. However when the character has a HORIZONTAL recovery and they end up level with or slightly above Mario it simply pushes them upwards completely ruining FLUDD'S setup or edgeguarding potential. There's also the fact that like fire breath and flamethrower FLUDD starts off shooting out straight ahead and doesn't give you a lot of time to change the angle of the spray.

TL;DR FLUDD doesn't do any damage and is only really useful for edgeguarding and stalling. It's a solid B-rank.

FLUDD is most definitely an A tier move, you can't always measure everything by how much damage it does. You mentioned it's utility off stage of course, and yes it affects some recoveries more than others. Of course you won't always get the Gimp, but just the psychological effect of FLUDD can cause people to make a mistake while recovering.

You didn't mention using FLUDD as a way to capture stage control though. There's basically no commitment to using it and the payoff of stage control is crucial especially at kill percents when putting your opponent in a disadvantageous position can be lethal

 

[Masonomace]

Is there some unspoken rule not to mention limit?

It seems more like the move is by default high-tier so discussion doesn't happen for the move. Like for example, I guess apparently you can act on the 8th frame of Limit Break activation once you get a full meter, which is the same as you charge limit & cancel the charge acting on the 8th frame of release. As far as the limit charge itself, you can buffer an option like roll during the Limit Charge startup before the first frame of charge (frame 6) & you'll still get that charge while starting your roll you buffered earlier as an example.

I only made light of that because that is something we might of lacked for frame data so. The only drawback to Limit Charge becoming Limit Break aura is when you accumulate ~398 frames (just needs to be really close to full sudden meter) charged for Limit & suddenly buffer a Finishing Touch input by accident just because you held ↓+B too long. That's about it as far as huge letdowns go for a move.

Leaf Shield is alright.

On top of your points about it, Leaf Shield near ledge can be formidable due to a footstool surprise option to easily gimp opponents who recover low. The rehit-rate of the leaves revolving around Mega Man isn't particularly fast, but it still does work. And the leaves spinning around can induce floor locking, which we know leads into the fear that is Utilt.

 

[Diamond Octobot]

Given the list you have up there, I think Leaf Shield should be in C tier.

I can only talk for my main, so...

Leaf Shield is alright. It isn't something extra-special, but getting free hitboxes is always nice. It can net you easier grabs if you let a leaf stun an opponent, and its huge size allows it to eat most projectiles.
Its main downside is that while it is active, you don't have access to your other moves, would they be regular attacks or special moves. You are still able to use any hold item or to pick one up and you have your full mobility + Shield & grab, so you aren't exactly a sitting duck.
That and sometimes the leaves clank with other hitboxes, letting you get out of bad situations or getting comboed by a jab. Or even worse, you could trigger a counter (most of them can be shielded tho).

It's worth a spot between B-D tiers. Your choice.

It's true that it makes it easier to footstool offstage, and when combined with a shield at the ledge, it can cover at least 3 options at the same time.

And getting a ZDrop Combo with a Leaf Shield on might let you get easier UTilts, but I am only juging it based on its individual options..

 

[ARGHETH]

I was mainly referencing Emblem Lord's post when placing Ryu.

Ryu Focus attack is B tier at best, but most likely C tier.

Seems super busted at first then you look at the frame data and all the counter play as well as how much he commits and you just kinda say, "oh...meh."

 

[~ Gheb ~]

C-Tier should be split up into two different tiers. There's no way Villager's and Pac-Man's useful down Bs are in the same tier as Palutena's or DK's.

 

[Emblem Lord]

If yall actually look at Ryu's focus in high level play, it usually screws him over and just gets him hit or grabbed. The move does not connect enough vs strong opponents. What we are discussing is how it impacts the characters meta at a high level. Not how good the move is in a vacuum.

Focus Attack has armor on frame one, but Ryu cannot attack until frame 31. He cannot dash cancel until frame 26. When he dashes he does not have armor. And he suffers from similar recovery to a normal dash. So when you see Ryu focus, if you react fast enough you can DEFINITELY put out an option that he MUST deal with. So he either has to try to tank your attack or FADC backwards and lose ground. A swordsman should never fear this move, except maybe Ike in certain situations. Ryu can short hop then FA which is a bit better, but still has some vulnerabilities. And even then Ryu cannot recover from the air dash fast enough to throw out a hitbox, so it's really just for mobility purposes.

FA is a tool you need to use in anticipation of an attack. It is actually a well designed move. Which in fighting game terms...means it's not good. It is not a free move. It's not a non-commitment free crumple move that you can throw out and get out of when things look dicey. Vs weaker characters it can be that, but in a game where alot of characters have grab combos as a huge part of their gameplan, using a move that keeps you in place for half a second is not without it's counters. Not to mention characters with solid multihit neutral tools like Marcina/Roy Nair and Mewtwo Nair.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Actually the OP said 'these moves are graded in a vacuum' if this thread is a continuation on that then meta game effects don't apply. We ARE ranking these moves in a vacuum (at least we were when we took part in the OPs original post.)

 

[ARGHETH]

Actually the OP said 'these moves are graded in a vacuum' if this thread is a continuation on that then meta game effects don't apply. We ARE ranking these moves in a vacuum (at least we were when we took part in the OPs original post.)

We also ignored that many, many times when discussing moves.

 

[GrigStig]

I think dat yung jiggs got best moves in game y'feel m'****?
everything's best