Randomness

[MattNF]

ITT: terrible hyperboles, strawmen, and bottom quality posts.

Attacking only the worst arguments made from individuals as snide and contemptuous as yourself helps neither case.

You've contributed nothing of worth to the topic yourself.

The point of my post was this: If you think randomness should be in the game to make things less "exactly the same and boring", then that argument can be used to justify tripping on the same grounds.

 

[Kink-Link5]

You've contributed nothing of worth to the topic yourself.

The point of my post was this: If you think randomness should be in the game to make things less "exactly the same and boring", then that argument can be used to justify tripping on the same grounds.

Stick around longer before making threads that look like obvious bait.

Random elements are fine when the move already is decent at its worst, when the strongest versions can be manipulated, or when it can be predicted to some extent.

Game and Watch's hammer has so many tells for when it can roll a 5, 6, 7, or 9, all of which are great attacks that either kill or automatically lead to a kill.

Luigi's misfire runs on a Russian Roulette system, where the misfire starts as 1/6, then 1/5, and so on until it is guarantied, has a tell in the green shading that occurs when it will misfire, and can be stored for use whenever you want.

Peach's Turnips and DeDeDe's waddle/gordo toss have a calculated risk inherit to taking the time to use the move, and have decent enough application to be used often. Gordos are as easy as any other Waddle to get around from neutral, and kill only marginally sooner than his other options in a combo. Peach's turnips, meanwhile, have a fluctuation in percents; it isn't like the move is nothing but ****ty turnips and 1/120 stichfaces. This is a case similar to DeDeDe, where the use of turnips warrents using the move to pluck a lot.

Olimar Pikmin would be pretty stupid without random plucks. He'd always just stick with Purples, and have no use for the others. As it is, he has to work with what Pikmin he has to the best. It isn't the worst part of Olimar's design by a long shot.

Okay.

 

[The_Altrox]

I don't get this "take the risk into account" bull****. How is randomness any more tactical than consistent mechanics?

Preparing accordingly and accepting risks is exactly what you cannot do, because you have no idea whether peach will push you back an inch with a happy turnip or blow you to the moon with a bobomb. By its very nature, randomness CANNOT be adapted to.

You can't tell me what to do, you're not my father!
But in all seriousness, not knowing isn't a problem for me. I don't know what's coming, but I adapt to the possibility that she's gonna pull out a bomb (if that makes any sense). I'm constantly on guard for whatever Peach pulls. I know that the stitch is coming so I ready myself to deal with it. That's actually how I play my friend when he uses Peach. Each time he plucks, I ready myself to deal with the stitch, and if it's a smiley turnip, I deal with that too. It really is about general adaptation. That's actually why I'm in favor of Halberd being a counterpick, but I know the PM community isn't on board with that.

 

[The_NZA]

How about people bemoaning randomness actually dictate a mechanic that should determine some of the random things in smash. Because one thing the RNG in smash does for Peach's turnips is NOT significantly change the way she plays, outside of pullin turnips frequently. Whereas if you tie the turnip pulling mechanic to something solid and controlleable, you effectively change the way people want to play peach. So how would you do it? Do you want to make it so the longer peach stays in place, the better the turnips she pulls? That would pressure peaches to play campier. Do you want it to be tied to a "charge turnips" meter? I want to hear answers. Because the one positive of the complete RNG of peach's turnip (that also isn't a complete RNG) is that it does not significantly change the way she plays her game, outside of pulling turnips often when nothing is going on.

 

[Phaiyte]

Well Gdubs doesn't have that bull**** nB anymore so that's one thing. I don't know how many times I played against my friends Ganon and won by just pressing B a lot.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

@ The_NZA I am not really flaming at random elements, but my idea is to change it to a kind of fake-randomness as mentioned above (Page 1). It would appear as random normally, but if you know the factors determining it (for example percents of both players, stage or idk what) you could actually predict if you get that random "luck" now. It wouldn't ruin the "randomness" as it strategic element but if it really bugs you you could invest time and learn when you are going to pull the stitch face or sth. else

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

@ The_NZA I am not really flaming at random elements, but my idea is to change it to a kind of fake-randomness as mentioned above (Page 1). It would appear as random normally, but if you know the factors determining it (for example percents of both players, stage or idk what) you could actually predict if you get that random "luck" now. It wouldn't ruin the "randomness" as it strategic element but if it really bugs you you could invest time and learn when you are going to pull the stitch face or sth. else

From what I heard, in brawl you were more likely to get specific pikmin types depending on where you plucked them, weither they removed this in Project M or not, I don't know.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Yeah for both the Pikmin and G&Ws side-b the PMBR (or Sakurai in the case of the Pikmin) have found a way to make the influence of the randomness less and in my opinion it is a good approach not generalizing the move but make it dependent on other circumstances

 

[MattNF]

How about people bemoaning randomness actually dictate a mechanic that should determine some of the random things in smash. Because one thing the RNG in smash does for Peach's turnips is NOT significantly change the way she plays, outside of pullin turnips frequently. Whereas if you tie the turnip pulling mechanic to something solid and controlleable, you effectively change the way people want to play peach. So how would you do it? Do you want to make it so the longer peach stays in place, the better the turnips she pulls? That would pressure peaches to play campier. Do you want it to be tied to a "charge turnips" meter? I want to hear answers. Because the one positive of the complete RNG of peach's turnip (that also isn't a complete RNG) is that it does not significantly change the way she plays her game, outside of pulling turnips often when nothing is going on.

I like the ideas others have mentioned. Make a mechanic that seems random, but is actually controllable. I think this would work in most situations.

For Peach, I can't really think of a way atm, but the PMBR is a lot more clever than I am so I'm sure there's a way to balance it. Or you could simply remove all the "special" turnips and just have the default one. If people think that having default turnips would be too "underpowered", then they could always be tweaked in a way to compensate.

For Luigi, I like the ideas mentioned in the thread of making his side-b like Wario's waft, or by making him misfire exactly every 6 times or something. This would actually increase Luigi's skill ceiling and make his side-b a move you can rely on instead of hoping you get lucky.

For GAW, maybe it could be tied to percentages. A Game and Watch at low percent would always get 1s, while a game and watch at, say, 200% will always get 9s. I think this would create a cool mechanic and create potential for some hype comebacks, as well as creating fear in his opponents since he would become more of a threat as time goes in. In addition, it would allow GAW to create unique new combos off of side-bs that would only work under certain percents, raising his skill ceiling and adding depth to his character.

For Olimar, maybe make his Pikmin pull tied to stage position. Though this would probably be a nightmare to code. For example, in the middle of the stage (the most vulnerable spot) he would pluck out only purples, while at the sides, he would pluck out whatever the weakest one is (I don't know much about Olimar ). Or you could have his Pikmin always be pulled in a certain order. For example, it could go red-blue-yellow-white-purple then repeat. This would give Olimar more reliability on his moves and allow him to shuffle them using the whistle to get the right Pikmin more effectively. And it would give his opponents something to look out for, as they could also be keeping track of his Pikmin pulls, so they would need to be wary and keep the pressure on if they know a purple Pikmin is coming up.

Just some ideas.

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

For Olimar, maybe make his Pikmin pull tied to stage position. Though this would probably be a nightmare to code. For example, in the middle of the stage (the most vulnerable spot) he would pluck out only purples, while at the sides, he would pluck out whatever the weakest one is (I don't know much about Olimar ). Or you could have his Pikmin always be pulled in a certain order. For example, it could go red-blue-yellow-white-purple then repeat. This would give Olimar more reliability on his moves and allow him to shuffle them using the whistle to get the right Pikmin more effectively. And it would give his opponents something to look out for, as they could also be keeping track of his Pikmin pulls, so they would need to be wary and keep the pressure on if they know a purple Pikmin is coming up.

No Pikmin is really weaker then any other, they just serve different purposes. The idea of making it go "red>yellow>blue>white>purple" would make things involving reds and yellows (mainly reds) easier to use and abuse while making things involving blues, whites, and purples a waste of time trying to set up.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

From what I heard, in brawl you were more likely to get specific pikmin types depending on where you plucked them, weither they removed this in Project M or not, I don't know.

The PMBR want to mess with it for balance and Olimar buffs (I think) but they don't know how.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

For GAW, maybe it could be tied to percentages. A Game and Watch at low percent would always get 1s, while a game and watch at, say, 200% will always get 9s. I think this would create a cool mechanic and create potential for some hype comebacks, as well as creating fear in his opponents since he would become more of a threat as time goes in.

You do realize that "We shouldn't reward people for getting hit and making mistakes" is Lucario's entire redesign philosophy.

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

You do realize that "We shouldn't reward people for getting hit and making mistakes" is Lucario's entire redesign philosophy.

imagine how OP that would be. HE COULD LITERALLY TAKE ALL OF YOUR STOCKS IN LESS THEN 30 SECONDS JUST FOR GETTING HIT A LOT!

 

[MattNF]

You do realize that "We shouldn't reward people for getting hit and making mistakes" is Lucario's entire redesign philosophy.

Good point. Was just throwing a random idea out, I'm sure there's a better solution.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Good point. Was just throwing a random idea out, I'm sure there's a better solution.

A slightly better idea might be to key the numbers to the opponent's damage value, so that you can develop combos and finishers around the expected outcome of the move. Something like Combo --> Freeze Hammer --> Finisher. I don't have a dog in this fight anyway, but that's a slightly more skill-promoting way to approach the situation.

Of course, there are balance concerns I'm ignoring, but it's a starting point for you. It's not like P:M is alien to a character having a guaranteed finisher on you past a certain percent anyway.

 

[The_NZA]

I just don't see this as an issue. Playing around probabilities is a skill in and of itself. FOr instance, GnW konwing what he's likely to get, and even hammers all acting in a certain way while odd hammers act a certain way is a great balance design. I'm not sure there's a superior methodology to employ.

For Luigi's misfires, I think part of the counterplay is always being ready for a misfire, and part of the advantage of being luigi is gambling on the possibility that there is one. Is that not adequate counterplay?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

For Game&Watch, since most of his options are eliminated by the points above him or the fact that you cant get one of the last 2 numbers again, and for Olimar, who only has 5 options to decide between, it is probably easier to generate a accessible fake-randomness than for Peach. Would have many ideas for fake randomnesses (haha, Ness^^) with less than 1/10 chance that can be used but it gets more complicated the weirder the probabilities get

 

[MattNF]

I just don't see this as an issue. Playing around probabilities is a skill in and of itself. FOr instance, GnW konwing what he's likely to get, and even hammers all acting in a certain way while odd hammers act a certain way is a great balance design. I'm not sure there's a superior methodology to employ.

For Luigi's misfires, I think part of the counterplay is always being ready for a misfire, and part of the advantage of being luigi is gambling on the possibility that there is one. Is that not adequate counterplay?

I hate to repeat what I said earlier, but this argument is exactly what people used in defense of items being turned on. It IS true that both players can react to and adapt to items/moves with luck elements, but the fact remains that there is an inherent randomness that could cause large imbalances/unfair happenings in some cases. And that's a problem if you're making a game that is supposed to be competitive.

 

[popsofctown]

Mr. Saturn: 100% chance of plucking while enemy shield health is below X.
Bob - Omb: 100% chance of plucking after blocking X projectile moves with Toad (X = 6, maybe? Includes blocking turnips so the possibility is still a part of every matchup)
Beam Sword: 100% chance of plucking after connecting with the Frying Pan
Stitch - face: 100% chance of plucking after landing a Peach Bomber, then celebrating with a [completed, not taunt cancelled] sidetaunt.

Might swap those around, although obviously i like the mr. saturn/shield pairing. Just some preliminary suggestions.

 

[The_NZA]

I hate to repeat what I said earlier, but this argument is exactly what people used in defense of items being turned on. It IS true that both players can react to and adapt to items/moves with luck elements, but the fact remains that there is an inherent randomness that could cause large imbalances/unfair happenings in some cases. And that's a problem if you're making a game that is supposed to be competitive.

You realize that accepting some randomness that you have to fight against and expect as a possibility might not be equatable to the sheer volume of randomness that items present? And that one can argue that SOME randomness for these mechanics is better than no randomness? Because that is precisely what I am arguing.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

The thing is, randomness is always a bad thing. It leads to not the better, but the luckier player may have won. If we have mechanics that have some kind of fake-randomness then its the players fault that he didnt know these mechanics, rather than him having just bad luck. I agree though that generalizing (like no stichs anymore, etc etc) would be a very bad thing. There needs to be some alternative and I think fake-randomness may suit well.

 

[Mera Mera]

Well since we're talking about it, the ways I might suggest retooling the random stuff:

Luigi: misfire happens every third time (maybe every fourth time?) buff or nerf the misfire to compensate for the perceived nerf/buff of this change.

G&W: Hammer goes in order starting from 1 and after a 9 it goes back to 1. Probably nerf the knockback on 9 and buff/nerf other hammers depending on how both players knowing a certain effect is next affects that number's viability/affect on the match. For his bacon if you can't control it or it isn't a consistent pattern already, make it controllable or a consistent pattern.

Olimar: Probably doesn't need a change since he fits all 3 criteria of things that make randomness not-so-bad in competitive play. Also he would be hard to balance if he could somehow control his Pikmin setup. I wouldn't be against making this non-random if someone could come up with a good way to do it though.

DDD: This one's a bit weird cause you might not want Gordo forced on you, yet if you could use him w/e then you might use him often. Maybe this: light throws are always the not electric waddles (forgot the names), and hard throws are electric waddles the first two times and the third is a Gordo (where light throws do not affect the counter at all).

Peach: This one is a bit tougher... maybe get only average turnips except:
On the 12th pull: beam sword
On the 24th pull: Bomb-omb
On the 36th pull: Mr. Saturn
On the 48th pull: stitchface
The frequency and order I suggested might be terrible and stitchface and/or bomb-omb might need slight nerfs to make up for knowing you can get it, but you get the idea.
Actually popsofctown's idea isn't bad either (just read it).

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I don't think repeating those events periodically would fit, I don't like it in G&Ws and Peachs case. Needs to be a more complex design

 

[Mansta]

Peach: This one is a bit tougher... maybe get only average turnips except:
On the 12th pull: beam sword
On the 24th pull: Bomb-omb
On the 36th pull: Mr. Saturn
On the 48th pull: stitchface
The frequency and order I suggested might be terrible and stitchface and/or bomb-omb might need slight nerfs to make up for knowing you can get it, but you get the idea.
Actually popsofctown's idea isn't bad either (just read it).

36 pulls for a Mr. Saturn, 24 pulls for a Bomb-omb. wat.

I don't think people even use turnips that much.

 

[Mera Mera]

36 pulls for a Mr. Saturn, 24 pulls for a Bomb-omb. wat.

I don't think people even use turnips that much.

As I said the numbers and order might need to be adjusted or something like popsofctown's idea might work better.

As for Mr. Saturn being after Bomb-omb, this was to spread out the appearance of bomb-omb and stitchface.

 

[The_NZA]

The only idea I like here is the one where mr. saturn pull rate is someone determined by the shield of the opponent.

 

[Mansta]

As I said the numbers and order might need to be adjusted or something like popsofctown's idea might work better.

As for Mr. Saturn being after Bomb-omb, this was to spread out the appearance of bomb-omb and stitchface.

Makes sense, but I know I wouldn't be able to track 48 turnip pulls while fighting, that would need adjustments to work like you said.

 

[Daftatt]

I love this thread, way to drive off OP guys
Although you were all of course correct in your points.

 

[popsofctown]

The only idea I like here is the one where mr. saturn pull rate is someone determined by the shield of the opponent.

Yeah, that's the one I like the best. Someone can probably come up with lots of better ideas, I was trying to suggest what kind of things are available to keep the elements part of the game but put things in the player's control.

Someone who is more familiar with modding could have some more adventurous suggestions because they may know what is and isn't easy to implement. I know shield health is a scalar variable so that is easy to work with.

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

Isn't it funny how most characters with "OP random moves" are generally rated mid-tier to low-tier?

 

[Nicknick]

So I think think people are still ignoring the major questions here. What does randomness add to the game? Why would it be here in the first place? What does it ADD to the game?

I brought up in my previous post (which was all but ignored since the thread took 200 tangents) that randomness provides ... Hell I'm just going to repost it.

I've thought about this before multiple times and I still don't think randomness has a place in Project M or any competitive fighting game, and here is why:

There is no reason for it to be there.

What if the random moves never existed in the first place and were instead replaced with brand new moves that were balanced according to the character's move-set? From a competitive standpoint, would we miss these random elements we never had? No. How many competitive gamers go into a skill-based game thinking, "Hmm, you know what this game needs? More dice rolls."

Randomness has no place in a competitive fighting game because the concept of adding randomness is to provide unpredictable elements. Unpredictable elements inherently oppose skill-based gameplay in fighting games. Skill should be promoted, not otherwise.

Randomness is is great for adding chaotic fun in games, but that's not what Project M's fun is derived from. Smashers have "fun" by pulling off finely tuned techniques to outplay their opponents in a satisfying way, not by some randomly generated number (regardless of how small or psuedo-random it is). When you outplay someone you know you did. This is similar to why items are off by default in competitive rules.

Randomness has its place, but in my opinion this place is absolutely NOT in competitive fighting games. As for Project M specifically I've always thought the random-related moves should just be remade. And if people want RNG for party plays then add a "Random Moves" option in the menu that turns the moves back into their legacy counterparts.

 

[NWRL]

Yeah Randomness is definitely a quality that shouldn't be in Smash. Luigi's misfire is a decent way to deal with it I suppose.

Project M is about technical and deep gameplay, what's deep or technical about RNG? Sure I guess you could say "Peach takes a calculated risk in pulling turnips so that makes RNG okay", but that's pretty much not true. It's part of the reason why I don't enjoy LoL or Dota competitively, RNG plays a pretty big role in both, and I've had instances where a crit has lost me a trade, and then from there a lane. Or I roll a 1 second stun instead of 4 on RNGKnight and my gank fails.

It's ****ty, it's dumb, it's a relic of an older age. It's 2014, let's move Smash to the standard that's been in traditional fighting games since SF2.

 

[MattNF]

You realize that accepting some randomness that you have to fight against and expect as a possibility might not be equatable to the sheer volume of randomness that items present? And that one can argue that SOME randomness for these mechanics is better than no randomness? Because that is precisely what I am arguing.

So if you're saying that items are unbalanced because of their "high volume", are you implying they would be balanced if they were set to "low" or "very low" or something?

I disagree about your second point. I think randomness, at least in its current form, makes gameplay worse.

Isn't it funny how most characters with "OP random moves" are generally rated mid-tier to low-tier?

There is no tier list for this game, and even if there was, it would be highly variable and likely inaccurate. Your opinions have no relevance in this debate.

So I think think people are still ignoring the major questions here. What does randomness add to the game? Why would it be here in the first place? What does it ADD to the game?

Some people have answered that it "changes things up", which is true, and that without them, "every game would be the same", which is false.

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

There is no tier list for this game, and even if there was, it would be highly variable and likely inaccurate. Your opinions have no relevance in this debate.

There are no official tier list, but there is this place: Tier List Speculation

If a bunch of people collectively say a character sucks, including a few pro players, then it's highly probable that that character isn't very good.

I also have no opinion because the only one of these characters I play is Olimar. Also, does that mean YOUR opinions have relevance? Don't say you aren't giving opinions because saying RNG is a bad thing is an opinion. There is no "proof" that randomness is a bad thing and there is no "proof" that randomness is a good thing, it's not something you can prove.

 

[Daftatt]

There are no official tier list, but there is this place: Tier List Speculation

If a bunch of people collectively say a character sucks, including a few pro players, then it's highly probable that that character isn't very good.

I also have no opinion because the only one of these characters I play is Olimar. Also, does that mean YOUR opinions have relevance? Don't say you aren't giving opinions because saying RNG is a bad thing is an opinion. There is no "proof" that randomness is a bad thing and there is no "proof" that randomness is a good thing, it's not something you can prove.

My opinion on that thread is a collective of people saying "No one is decisively good with this character yet". Take no comment in that thread as an indication of a character's viability, only their mystery yet to be unlocked.

Squirtle is REALLY hard to master, but he is good, and someday someone will take him to the next level

 

[MattNF]

There is no "proof" that randomness is a bad thing and there is no "proof" that randomness is a good thing, it's not something you can prove.

There is plenty proof that randomness can influence the game for better or worse. Remember Armada's bob-omb pulls on mango? Or when Fly Amanita was unable to waddle dash recover properly because he randomly got a gordo? Or times when Luigi's misfire has killed an opponent attempting to gimp him? I've also seen the opposite, where a recovering Luigi gets a misfire that puts him in a worse position and gets him killed.

None of this is opinion, you're free to look up the videos on youtube.

 

[Nicknick]

Some people have answered that it "changes things up", which is true, and that without them, "every game would be the same", which is false.

My argument is that saying it "changes it up" is just another way of saying, "it changes a level, competitive playing field into an uneven one". Regardless of the direction, someone is always going to be at a disadvantage in such a way that is out of player control. Having a winning factor be out of a player's skill opposes the skill-based combat in competitive fighting games such as Project M.

As for the second part, lol yeah I agree that it doesn't hold merit. I think I might just make another thread about this with my own thesis, as I feel with the direction this thread started it went toward arguing semantics instead of arguing the real questions we should be talking about.

 

[Daftatt]

There is plenty proof that randomness can influence the game for better or worse. Remember Armada's bob-omb pulls on mango? Or when Fly Amanita was unable to waddle dash recover properly because he randomly got a gordo? Or times when Luigi's misfire has killed an opponent attempting to gimp him? I've also seen the opposite, where a recovering Luigi gets a misfire that puts him in a worse position and gets him killed.

None of this is opinion, you're free to look up the videos on youtube.

I would just like to remind everyone that without the unpredictability of RNG, some of the greatest moments in competitive smash would not of happened. Case in point.

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

My argument is that saying it "changes it up" is just another way of saying, "it changes a level, competitive playing field into an uneven one". Regardless of the direction, someone is always going to be at a disadvantage in such a way that is out of player control. Having a winning factor be out of a player's skill opposes the skill-based combat in competitive fighting games such as Project M.

As for the second part, lol yeah I agree that it doesn't hold merit. I think I might just make another thread about this with my own thesis, as I feel with the direction this thread started it went toward arguing semantics instead of arguing the real questions we should be talking about.

We have enough "RNG IZ BAD LOL"/"RNG IZ DA BEST LOL" threads already and each and every one of them eventually turns into this so don't even bother trying to promote friendly discussion because it never works.

I would just like to remind everyone that without the unpredictability of RNG, some of the greatest moments in competitive smash would not of happened. Case in point.

IDEA! MAKE STITCH FACE HAVE A 100% PROBABLILITY! PROBLEM SOLVED!

 

[Nicknick]

We have enough "RNG IZ BAD LOL"/"RNG IZ DA BEST LOL" threads already and each and every one of them eventually turns into this so don't even bother trying to promote friendly discussion because it never works.

See, that's the thing -- I don't want to make a "RNG IZ BAD LOL"/"RNG IZ DA BEST LOL" thread. I just want to bring up some questions which people either don't know about or don't wish to address. People's opinions -- and by extension my own -- are irrelevant when it comes to addressing the nature of randomness in a competitive fighting game such as PM. I just wish to talk about the setting. In the end it becomes a question of design, which is only THEN when people's opinions matter.