R.O.B. Matchup Analysis #22 - Duck Hunt

[GwJ]

 

[Crome]

If you spot the DK head you'll find true love tonight <3

All I really know is that we win by a margin, but he has a really good custom side b that turns it in his favor.

 

[Ze Diglett]

Most of what I said a billion years ago in the R.O.B. Matchup Thread still holds true now. Laser alone beats two of DH's projectiles (all 3 if supercharged), and the Gyro destroys the Clay Pigeon, knocks back Can, and KOs Wild Gunman if thrown iirc. Arm Rotor shouldn't be overused too much, since it only reliably reflects one of DH's projectiles, though it's still as good as ever for catching rolls (hint: DH rolls a lot). Nair alone beats all of DH's aerials bar Uair if you're above him, so it's useful for approaching and subsequently trapping DH in a corner, which is a really bad spot for a character with camping game as good as DH. As for matchup ratio, I'd say it's easily at least 60:40, R.O.B.'s favor. Still winnable for DH if the stage is in his favor, but R.O.B. just has so many tools over the dog.

 

[Syde7]

Most of what I said a billion years ago in the R.O.B. Matchup Thread still holds true now. Laser alone beats two of DH's projectiles (all 3 if supercharged), and the Gyro destroys the Clay Pigeon, knocks back Can, and KOs Wild Gunman if thrown iirc. Arm Rotor shouldn't be overused too much, since it only reliably reflects one of DH's projectiles, though it's still as good as ever for catching rolls (hint: DH rolls a lot). Nair alone beats all of DH's aerials bar Uair if you're above him, so it's useful for approaching and subsequently trapping DH in a corner, which is a really bad spot for a character with camping game as good as DH. As for matchup ratio, I'd say it's easily at least 65:35, R.O.B.'s favor. Still winnable for DH if the stage is in his favor, but R.O.B. just has so many tools over the dog.

I'm going to have to disagree to some extent. You make some solid points, but there's a few counter-points I'd like to make. This comes from limited exp. vs. the character (#4 on our PR whereas I'm #7, so there's some overall player skill gap involved here, so take that for what its worth, as well as occasional exp vs. a pretty good DH online... but that's the extent of my playing the MU).

Yes, ROBs laser beats 2(3)/3 projectiles. However, DH can spawn his projectiles faster than ROB, so if it devolves into a race of "who can throw more stuff out on the stage at one another the quickest", I think DH wins, especially on smaller/more cramped stages. For DH, its more of a game of making a player react to one or two things, while hitting with the third. By goofing with the order he throws stuff out (esp. since Gunmen are on a delay) he can basically lock you into getting hit by one of the three things with a high enough frequency that its a viable strategy for him. Given that DH outcamps us (I firmly believe this, btw) approaching is super hard due to ROBs size & speed. Runaway->Reverse Clay Pigeon doesn't give you much time to react with anything other than shield, for example; and getting hit with it (esp. at low percents) is akin to us hitting someone with a gyro... it creates opportunities for raw follow-ups, or grabs->follow-ups.

Additionally, the bulk of the projectiles DH has have more "lasting" utility. That is to say, a good DH who can lay traps with the can, or just leaves it sitting making you focus on other stuff only to hit it at the spur of the moment, knows the timing of the Gunmen shots & places them accordingly on plats, in the air, b-reversing them to cover a quick turn-around approach (covered further by a lagless SH clay pigeon or a standard clay pigeon) is not something to take lightly... and presents you with a bevvy of stuff to deal with in a very quick time frame.

Can is absolutely bonkers. He can use it like Snake's grenade (put it out and let you hit it, thus detonating it on both players) to more or less prevent him from being combo'd, to fuxing with your grabs with it (I want to say he can pull a can out while being held or thrown or something... can a DH main please confirm/deconfirm this, as well as any other stuff about the can that folks may not know??). Plus, if a can is in range on the field, a shot or two (as he will most likely be somewhat near it) can knock us out of a throwing animation if we choose a throw with a longer duration, or don't perform it quickly enough.

Can does a phenomenal job of edgeguarding ROB due to us being vulnerable during up+B's & being forced to cancel it. It may not outright KO, but it presents a heck of a hassle.

As far as our Rotor Arm catching rolls, that's a good point but keep in mind that DH can control the can freely while rolling... thus presenting the option for a favorable trade situation for him by hitting us with the can after 2-3 small hits of rotor arm b4 the strong one can connect.

His projectiles plus U-air threat do a solid job of controlling your landing space, esp on a stage like BF. Can on one platform, depending on the direction its geared to go when fired can in essence police two platforms at the same time while U-air patrols the third plat + negative space. On flat stages, they can use the can's descent to force us to land at a speed THEY want, while using gunman + clay pigeon to trap landings; or they can use the can rather simply to control a certainl area of ground + air space, threat of U-air to cover the opposite safe aerial space alongside gunmen and/or clay pigeon- all with very little unsafe commitment. This makes it hard for ROB, a char who already struggles with landing, to land.

I find DH's jab is a pretty solid option as well. It has range that's longer than some chars tilts, comes out pretty fast, and can KO at super high percents (as DH struggles for KOs, you'll probably find yourself at % where this will kill somewhat often).

I've been studying this MU a bit as of late, and watched some sets of MVD vs 8bitman, both being more than respectable (an understatement) with their respective characters and I just don't see ROB running away with that MU often enough to put it at a 65:35

In vanilla matches, ROB has a clear/distinct advantage in the edgeguarding game, being able to net gimps at stupid %'s due to the lack of DH hitbox (outside of Can stuff that we have no business getting consistently hit by) so I can see why ROB would have a good advantage overall in the MU, considering that even with all the stuff I mentioned before, I don't think ROB gets straight up shut down by it. We have the ability to gimp early, KO moderately quicker, while generally living about a half a stock longer.


With customs on, DH gets a much much safer up+B thus negating that objective advantage to a large degree, as well as a subjectively better can (player preference on which can, really).

I wish I could provide more advice on the specifics of what ROB can / should do in this MU, as well as DH specific trixies and gimmicks to watch out for, but I'm at a loss. I'd put it in ROB's favor, but not by a large margin... probably 55:45 on the more coonservative end/on stages they like to 60:40 on the more liberal end. My opinion on that could change based on input from the DH folks (paging @ MVD as he's the only DH I know off the top of my head), and more ROB input... (perfectly willing to concede that I could just not be able to come up with the answers that are already there on my own).

 

[Pyro-is-Magic]

Hello everyone here from the Duck Hunt Boards.

Here are some DH vs. Rob matches that someone posted on the video thread some time ago.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RYJ7lAHuXMA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdD1eVzQVNk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5f24G7Cjbc

Rob is huge so a good Duck Hunt player can juggle him the whole game. Full charged laser and gyro are the better projectiles for the match-up but a Duck Hunt who is good at perfect sheilding will make this match up hell. I'm still trying to figure out how to contest Rob's nair, but if a Duck Hunt finds a way to exploit that move the match-up becomes terrible. Against a bad Duck Hunt who tries to out camp Rob just spam away at him but against a good Duck Hunt Dog who likes to play rushdown, be prepared for b-reverse and wavebounce cross-ups. Also Zigzag can is ridiculous against Rob. You can check that out in the videos above.

 

[WispBae]

Doggy main here.

(ALWAYS ASSUME WHEN DISCUSSING AN MU, BOTH PLAYERS ARE PLAYING THE BEST THEY CAN)

@ Syde7 has the right idea. The Doggy/ROB MU is basically an elementary school food fight of who can throw more stuff faster. They both are very similar to each other, character wise, getting strings started off projectiles and walling others out. Both also have slow recovery with no attack (although ROB can act out of hit).

The advantage Doggy has in this MU are 1)ROB's size and 2)Vertical control of projectiles. It is fairly easy to hit ROB, being such a huge character, and the can is great for escaping laser pressure by tossing one out, then maneuvering over the fight while shielding. If you don't get the can punish, it still gives doggy stage control and pretty much resets the situation. While ROB does have access to a reflector, it is not too good to use consistently, can be DI'd out of, and whiffing will lead to an up Smash from doggy.

The advantage ROB has in this MU are 1)Better KO options, 2)Heavy weight and 3)The properties of laser and gryo. While Doggy is a godsend of racking up damage, finishing stocks is very hard, since Trick Shot only kill 150 and higher, bair is not easy to land the sweetspot, and up-air is often predictable since the only real set up for it is a downthrow, followed by reading the DI and airdodge. Even then, just jumping escapes it. Just don't airdodge after a downthrow, smart doggies will punish with an F-Smash. ROB, on the other hand, has Nair, Bair, Uair, and fair for gimiping doggy's poor recovery. Not too mention having access to the "Beep Boop" and a kill throw.

The two characters are very similar, but if someone does inherently have the advantage, it's probably ROB, since his KO options are better. Even then, it's not a huge advantage, I'd wager to call it almost an even match-up. It really comes down to who is the better player.

Hope this helps! ^^

 

[Syde7]

Doggy main here.

(ALWAYS ASSUME WHEN DISCUSSING AN MU, BOTH PLAYERS ARE PLAYING THE BEST THEY CAN)

@ Syde7 has the right idea. The Doggy/ROB MU is basically an elementary school food fight of who can throw more stuff faster. They both are very similar to each other, character wise, getting strings started off projectiles and walling others out. Both also have slow recovery with no attack (although ROB can act out of hit).

The advantage Doggy has in this MU are 1)ROB's size and 2)Vertical control of projectiles. It is fairly easy to hit ROB, being such a huge character, and the can is great for escaping laser pressure by tossing one out, then maneuvering over the fight while shielding. If you don't get the can punish, it still gives doggy stage control and pretty much resets the situation. While ROB does have access to a reflector, it is not too good to use consistently, can be DI'd out of, and whiffing will lead to an up Smash from doggy.

The advantage ROB has in this MU are 1)Better KO options, 2)Heavy weight and 3)The properties of laser and gryo. While Doggy is a godsend of racking up damage, finishing stocks is very hard, since Trick Shot only kill 150 and higher, bair is not easy to land the sweetspot, and up-air is often predictable since the only real set up for it is a downthrow, followed by reading the DI and airdodge. Even then, just jumping escapes it. Just don't airdodge after a downthrow, smart doggies will punish with an F-Smash. ROB, on the other hand, has Nair, Bair, Uair, and fair for gimiping doggy's poor recovery. Not too mention having access to the "Beep Boop" and a kill throw.

The two characters are very similar, but if someone does inherently have the advantage, it's probably ROB, since his KO options are better. Even then, it's not a huge advantage, I'd wager to call it almost an even match-up. It really comes down to who is the better player.

Hope this helps! ^^

Thanks for the input, always glad when another character main hops in on these convos to confirm/deny stuff. Glad to know I am at least on the right track in terms of understanding the MU. Just out of curiosity, in the next day or two I should have videos from a tournament set vs. the DHD player I alluded to in my post. Would you mind if I sent you the link to them to review when I post them in the ROB boards, from a DHD's perspective? That would be super duper helpful. Thanks in advance!

 

[The Real Inferno]

60:40 ROB

DH needs customs or he loses this matchup sadly. He just cannot hope to create the opportunities he needs consistently to get ROB in the bad position for his juggles. This is mostly due to having poor frame data vs ROB's projectiles.

I recommend in a custom matchup, taking standard laser. A lot of Duck Hunt's will try to camp you early to feel you out. Your standard laser will make sure you don't have to bother with this phase thanks to the range. Standard gyro is preferred. Do not shoot it pointlessly. If you let DH get it, you will regret it. I recommend just spacing the dog back with dtilt and ftilt. Most of his moveset is unsafe against these two attacks and retreating nair is almost always safe against him. Keep in mind he struggles for kills outside of hard reads and air juggles with uair and can, so don't let yourself fall into the obvious traps (which is the main problem, his setups are too obvious and often has to rely on ROB's being inexperienced against the character).

Stages don't matter much here. Both characters tend to prefer the same battlegrounds. Rob just has a few more options to work with and is more consistent in getting his game started than DH is.

 

[MVD]

65:35 or 70:30 imo
MU is very hard and frustrating, lack of real kill potential cripples puppy

 

[GwJ]

65:35 or 70:30 imo
MU is very hard and frustrating, lack of real kill potential cripples puppy

Could you explain a little more and address what the other Duck Hunter players said?

 

[verbatim]

Reawakening a year old thread to ask a question. I'm a Pac main looking at DHD as a possible secondary, especially if he gets his bugs fixed in 1.1.4.

Isn't ROB's projectile game severely limited if Duck Hunt Dog grabs the Gyro and camps? His basic wall game doesn't require many of his normal moves and he can probably incorporate zdrop combo's against ROB.

 

[Crome]

Reawakening a year old thread to ask a question. I'm a Pac main looking at DHD as a possible secondary, especially if he gets his bugs fixed in 1.1.4.

Isn't ROB's projectile game severely limited if Duck Hunt Dog grabs the Gyro and camps? His basic wall game doesn't require many of his normal moves and he can probably incorporate zdrop combo's against ROB.

Our laser still beats his projectiles, and we're better at killing then he is. It definitely makes a better situation for DH, but he still limits himself while holding the gyro.