Questions from Evo Staff

[pockyD]

Realistically, the longer a match goes, the more glaring the character imbalances become. A longer round doesn't actually smooth out the balance, it creates a bigger discrepancy. Which is why less rounds/stock (obviously a legitimate amount thought) with more games gives a more exciting and close battle.

well, do you want excitement? or do you want accuracy?

i would assume that accuracy (longer match = advantage to the better player) would be a much better goal for a tournament that wants to be taken seriously

 

[trag]

well, do you want excitement? or do you want accuracy?

i would assume that accuracy (longer match = advantage to the better player) would be a much better goal for a tournament that wants to be taken seriously

This is a very good point. The reason we do 2/3 in all games (when we can) is to lessen the effect of someone having one good match. You see how it affected the Smash Evo tournament and the 3S tournament. That being said, we simply can't run 3/5 and 4/7 either. It's just too much. We have to draw the line somewhere.

Now, since we all respect Smash, and we enjoy seeing it on the big stage, recognized as a legitimate fighting game, why not use a format that is similar to all of the other Evo games. That's 3 "rounds" per match. In fact, 3 stock is better than 3 rounds, because you can lose 2 "rounds" and still come back and win. In normal SF, you lose 2 rounds, in any order, that game is done. The only exception is TK (or VF / DOA / SC4) where the matches are traditionally much shorter. Here, we can afford to run default 3/5. Since smash really has no default (actually, wasn't default 2 stock?) I feel, personally, that 3 stock is pretty good, especially when you are going 2 out of 3 games.

I also feel that 2/3 games is enough for someone to overcome a small discrepancy in balance if their skills are up to par (or they catch a hot streak). However, the longer you put on a match, the greater the character difference is going to matter. You play 100 games with 2 equally skilled players with different characters, the better character will win a majority (that's how we get favored matches and the like). With 2/3, it's enough so that you don't have the single runaway loss, but not so great that every single character imbalance comes into play and eventually sways a match completely in one direction.

 

[MetaKnight0]

I was reading through the SRK thread and one thing that caught my eye was your (trag) faith in Brawl's ability to bring players who crossover into the other fighting games. I can definitely see how that is exciting from Evo's point of view, bringing in new blood for games that have been out for very, very long.

My question is, is the actual number of crossover Smash players even close to the potential? A question to Smash players out there; how many of you seriously play fighting games that are not Smash (by seriously I mean attendance at the big tourneys, ranbats or regional tournaments, not online or casual play). Especially the games that will probably end up being in Evo (MvC2, 3s, CvS2 looks very popular as a keep) or are in consideration (Arcana Heart, Guilty Gear, Melty Blood, Soul Calibur, Tekken, Virtua Fighter)

Edit: Forgot to write this in.

My thought on SSBB creating a huge amount of crossover player potential is that it probably wouldn't bring more than a few players. SSBM was a community that was brought up basically independant of any existing fighting game community. Since we've built up our own community, with our own extremely hyped tournaments (Melee-FC, OC) with attendance numbers that beat Evo's Smash tournament, and since SSBM is so fundamentally different from 2-D fighting games in general, there isn't much incentive to try out any of the other fighting games. That and the dislike SRK folks have towards Smash (I wouldn't know if the feeling is mutual) seems to discourage any Smash players from getting into the other games.

I'm not speaking for myself (I am in hiatus from SSBM itself, I'm slowly learning 3rd Strike and I really like CvS2) but I'm just speaking from what I observe from the community.

 

[trag]

When I say crossover players, I mean coming from other games to Smash. A lot of us are Smash fans and have played for quite a while (just not on the national level). In fact, if you ask MattD who invented wavedash, he's most likely to tell you that I did (no lie). I really respect the game, and so do a lot of the other staff (maybe all of them). Many of us feel that next year, there will be a ton of players from our Evo mainstays crossing over into Smash. I'm not so sure about the other direction, but hey, you never know.

 

[Pakman]

I doubt the veteran melee smashers will use the classic controller for brawl unless there is some significant advantage to it.

If I had to choose between 4 stock best of 1 and 3 stock best of 3, I think the decision is clearly the latter.

To MetaKnight0:
I know Forward plays like a bunch of fighting games. He is quite good at smash, but I hear he is good at MvC2 and a couple of street fighter games, probably other stuff too. I myself used to compete in tekken in the days of tekken tag. But I lost interest when tekken 4 came out.

 

[mathos]

I believe wired controllers will be a requirement for the majority mainstream tournaments.

It helps hosts save time as you won't have to reset the wii constantly, and it will stop people from cheating using wireless controls.

 

[TheManaLord]

A lot of smashers play other games, I played SC2 competitively and won several local tournaments. (I know, they were only local, but I was young back when the game was in its prime). And really, Guilt Gear is even coming to the Wii and I'm sure a lot of eager smash fans might give that a try.

 

[JTB]

Does Pokemon count as a fighting game? I mean, you ARE forcing creatures to do harm to each other.

All jokes aside, I do know of several smashers in my area that play other fighting games competitively, such as MvC2 and Tekken.

 

[forward]

LOL i plan to be the first smasher to cross over into SF.

Tragic: Much respect to you man. On 3 stocks, I've actually pushed for this before, some people agree, others don't. People feel secure with the rules we have set up right now, it's comforting them to play 4 stock. Some tournaments in the community pride themselves on offering the players a lot of matches, such as 3 rounds of round robin pools. When it comes to smash, most players want "more."

On the other hand, I have a hard time concentrating for some of the 5 minute matches this game has. I've been burned out several times as tournaments come to an end. I understand that endurance is one of the skills people need in order to win, but I don't think that taking away one stock would make endurance irrelavant.

 

[lordXblade]

As far as controllers go, most serious pros will probably stick to the gamcube controller, unless classic proves to be much better for the layout of the game. As unlikely as that is, there should be some buffer for wireless use, like not putting all the Wiis together, but at different parts of the room. Honestly, I don't think you have to worry about screwing people over. The people most likely to win Evo will almost certainly be using GC controllers.

Crossing over is definitely something I want to do. I love Street Fighter and Marvel. Hopefully I can get good enough by the time the next Evo rolls around so I don't get completely demolished.

Edit: Forgot 3 stocks. 3 stocks shouldn't be a problem. Smash matches tend to be long, especially if it's with two characters with very good recovery (Peach and Samus) and having three stocks can force people to attack instead of turtle. Pulling the time down to 5 min is also an option, but 4 is a little too low in my opinion.

 

[XIF]

3 stock best of 3 is a really good setup for the tournament, at least qualifiers, and a 5 minute limit is not bad at all either, doubtful any match will go on for longer at 3 stock.

best of 1 or single elim is out of the question though. how often have matches been botched because of a suicide? a phantom hit? falling through the stage? and also ESPECIALLY with the stage set evo has (one which i personally dont like because people are using stages to win and not characters, but thats a different issue entirely which i dont even like to discuss anymore) but when you have random kills from klaptraps and arwings and random saves from barrels and such, the way a match can just completely tilt in one's favor at any time is just ridiculous.

I like that evo is making a real effort to cater to smash needs, and put effort into actually making a fair ruleset which the community can agree with. We all understand how smash is much more "needy" than other fighters for the length most sets last (some may blame the community, but such rules have been arrived at over many many trials, plus smash is so much more variable in general because of really the ease in which a person can effectively "lose a round" at any health)

GC controllers are gonna be the standard for brawl no doubt. If all the same tactics are kept intact, the GC controller will be the best option. I wouldnt even bother catering to wireless. Just make it a rule for any entrant to evo smash.

 

[Crashmania]

in my experience, trying to temporarily sync a wiimote to a different wii is a huge hastle and barely works as is, first of all you need to have one wiimote already synced to the wii to get to the screen where you can try to sync more, secondly even with just four wiimotes and one wii the process is frustratingly inconsistant, usually taking atleast 5 tries before we manage to get all 4 wiimote in.

unless nintendo dramatically improves the temporary syncing process before brawl comes out, its just too big of a hassle, stick to gamecube controllers

 

[KishPrime]

Trag, I'd have to say that your analysis of longer matches accentuating character discrepancies is a weird thing to say. Nevertheless, 3 stock best of 3 is fine. However I have to say from experience that it really doesn't save that much time, perhaps 10-15%. The counterpicking and downtime still don't change. Smash as it is currently played in tournaments is very hard to shrink (and we've tried).

In initial pools MLG ran 2-round neutral-only sets, with advancing being based on just round wins. Usually only 2 people would advance from these. However, the only way they really got away with this was because the best players (seeded from past events) were removed from the pools ahead of time. Thus, there was no complaining about "I had PC Chris and M2K in my pool so I had no chance."

As far as wireless goes, I would just say user beware, as long as sync doesn't take too long. Seriously, if someone wants to use a wireless and it's not working, the guy is just gonna lose. With wavebirds I always warn people in advance that we're not responsible if something goes wrong.

 

[Laijin]

Evo should come to Atlanta next time. lol.

 

[BigRick]

I'm all up for 3-stock matches!!!

Smash is a camper's game, and 4-stock matches tend to be too long.

Some matchups like Peach/Peach, Peach/Jiggs and Peach/Samus are simply horrible to play... or you could just ban Peach lol

 

[CT Chia]

uhg... i would really hate to see it go to 3 stock matches, but it's much better to do that and keep it double elimination. smash should have more time at evo! lol. but yea it does take a while, so its not too big a deal.

as for which controller to use... its too early to tell. sure plenty of ppl will prob keep using the cube controller, but its too early to tell, and we shouldnt limit controller options. i say have all options be usable, but have it setup carefully. all the wireless in one room isnt a problem, but syncing it all up at the beginning has to be careful. if the evo staff takes their time and syncs 4 remotes to every system before anyone plays on the wiis we will be fine. ppl like to bring theyr own controller, but its no big deal if they have to use evo's wii remotes. users will still be able to bring their own nunchuk, classic controller, or cube controller.

 

[Firestorm88]

I'd stick with GCN only. Syncing up WiiMotes is frustrating and having to do it at every station before a match just wastes more time. Interference is a problem as well obviously. All the control options except GCN require a WiiMote.