Question on an Isai vid regarding Yoshii

[th3kuzinator]

i guess for those with spike dairs maybe and i forgot about luigi and mario's uairs.

I could only really see samus, dk, mario and luigi though

What can pika or kirby do with sh ff?

Even dk seems a little unnecessary.

 

[dandan]

pika can use it for uair chains.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

i use it slightly for Yoshi for fast fall n-airs.

Pikachu can shff u-airs as said
I believe Kirby can use it for f-air combos and I have also seen people use it for b-airs as well to extend the hitbox.
DK can use it for quicker platform cancelled up airs.

 

[TANK64]

You say Z "isn't the only button for it," but no one is saying saying R-cancel is weird.

I never said they were. I was just saying what I used like everyone else. I was trying to figure out the reasoning for picking z-canceling as the name. (which you later explained)

I believe that when melee came out, people called it l-cancel because the L button happened to be pressed by the same finger that Z was pressed by the majority of SSB players, not because they thought, "hey let's use the term 'lag-cancel' because it covers all three lag-cancelling buttons. Oh yeah btw let's just say l-cancel for short."

Well thank you for clarifying that. That does make more sense. When I came to these boards (3/09) I didn't really know the common names for everything. I knew it was called L-canceling from my Melee friends, so I just called it that. Unfortunately I didn't know that many people who played 64, so I didn't use terms for anything in 64. I suppose it seemed weird because I played 64 differently to begin with.

L-cancel, or pressing the l button to cancel lag, led to the term lag-cancel and not the other way around.

I did not know this. (I didn't play Melee when it first came out)

Therefore, z-cancel makes sense and only doesn't to people who believe l-cancel has always stood for lag-cancel. Z-cancel is SSB tradition, just not TANK/current melee tradition.

Are you referring to me as being synonymous with the current melee tradition, or just like a "in-addition-to" other people who say L-canceling?

 

[ballin4life]

It is incredibly obvious that l cancel refers to the button. First of all, it's only a two letter and zero syllable improvement over lag cancel. Second, the term lag cancel in itself is pretty unspecific as there are other ways to cancel lag.

 

[TANK64]

It is incredibly obvious that l cancel refers to the button. First of all, it's only a two letter and zero syllable improvement over lag cancel. Second, the term lag cancel in itself is pretty unspecific as there are other ways to cancel lag.

Uair or is a one letter (2 if you include the space bar -_-), zero syllable improvement over up air. I've even heard people say it as "U air." Just saying, I didn't think of that as being an "incredibly obvious" reason for the community not to use it. But I didn't think it was a big deal, nor did I think people would be like, "OMG!" for saying L-cancel in 64 so...whatevs I guess.

Guess I have to start saying R-canceling (eww, no)

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

uh..malva, i z-cancel with r.

meaning my setup is that my r button inputs as my z button.

no macros, that's just my setup.

i also i use c-up as my grab.

also, in smash 64 on console, i use just R.

i'm a complex person, not like a puzzle, but one without any of the right peices.

 

[th3kuzinator]

Doesnt it get annoying when you press the r button too late and you end up grabbing, especially using characters with tether grabs. When I played Surri previously his link kept grabbing when he tried to rcancel dairs. Using z is the best method.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

that's why i set r as z, i hate when that happens.

 

[ballin4life]

The worst is when you try to grab with R but the game decides to just shield instead of grabbing. Anyone know why that happens?

 

[th3kuzinator]

The worst is when you try to grab with R but the game decides to just shield instead of grabbing. Anyone know why that happens?

-_- one of the most annoying things ever, I forgot about that.

it like happens when you drop your shield after being shield pressured me thinks. After dropping it, for a second or so you cant grab and it just puts up the shield. This especially strikes me as annoying with tether grab characters

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

i really wish that you could grab out of your sheild like you can in brawl.

Despite brawl having it's flaws, it does have some advantages.

 

[th3kuzinator]

what do you mean? you can shield grab.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

mmm, i guess it's just different frames.

in brawl it seems faster while smash it seems slower. i never really notice a sudden sheild-grab in smash, while i can tell someone sheild-grabbed in brawl.

 

[Korrupshen]

i really wish that you could grab out of your sheild like you can in brawl.

Despite brawl having it's flaws, it does have some advantages.

You mean shield grabbing....like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kNSsglOT88

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

yeahhh there we go. thanks korrupshen, almost felt like a moron.

 

[Sempiternity]

Same applies to Smash64, but it might seem slower because there's tons of shieldstun. However, grabbing out of a shield when nobody's around is super speedy.

 

[Korrupshen]

yeahhh there we go. thanks korrupshen, almost felt like a moron.

no problem...and I also find shield grabbing in melee and 64 kinda of slow. Its most visible in brawl.

 

[th3kuzinator]

Same applies to Smash64, but it might seem slower because there's tons of shieldstun. However, grabbing out of a shield when nobody's around is super speedy.

This. You can shield grab in ssb64 instantly, it just seems slower because of the large amount of shield stun preventing you from actually grabbing in the first place. Of course, tether grabs are slower than normal ones.

 

[Sempiternity]

Samus's grab can be hilarious at times. The slowness is, in itself, a mindgame. I've seen people run in the same direction as the grapple is traveling, catch up with it, and get grabbed.

 

[th3kuzinator]

Samus's grab can be hilarious at times. The slowness is, in itself, a mindgame. I've seen people run in the same direction as the grapple is traveling, catch up with it, and get grabbed.

this is quite funny when it happens I agree.

 

[The Star King]

@Soupamario how could you like the lack of shieldstun in Brawl, because of that shield pressure is practically non-existent.

Shielding with the grab button occurs when you're press R while you're still in the lag of something. So you're pressing it too soon.

Doesnt it get annoying when you press the r button too late and you end up grabbing, especially using characters with tether grabs. When I played Surri previously his link kept grabbing when he tried to rcancel dairs. Using z is the best method.

Uh if you press it too late you simply miss the cancel. The only way you would grab is if you cancel by spamming the button, which is the (lame) method Surri uses. The grab thing never happens to me, and I cancel with R.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

@Soupamario how could you like the lack of shieldstun in Brawl, because of that shield pressure is practically non-existent.

I like the fact there is perfect sheilding but not the fact of sheildstun.

I think sheilds should be able to be used fast and to be canceled out of fast, but i believe if you are sheilding you can't simply just roll away;that's what i love about the sheildstun in smash.

I really, really, love the fact in smash, you can sheild break because of sheild pressure.

 

[The Star King]

Powershielding like in Melee, maybe, with a one frame window. I think the window in Brawl is way too large. And it takes away the uniqueness of Yoshi's parrying.

 

[th3kuzinator]

Soup, you state that you like the aspect of shield pressuring and shield break (which is implying you like high shield stun) yet you say you should be able to drop your shield or "cancel out of that" faster than the current speed in ssb64.

Being able to drop your shield faster would imply less shield stun which would be directly against what you stated you liked in the first place.

I also would not want any sort of Power Shielding. Like Star King stated, the parry is one of the important factors that defines Yoshi and taking away this advantage from him by giving it to other characters would hurt him drastically.

On a parry related note, I think that a successful parry should give Yoshi at least 5-10 frames of invulnerability. This is specifically to counter drill moves which **** him when trying to parry. I know this is illogical based on what the current attack lag is on a shield, but I think it would be a beneficial addition.

Edit: Bleh, been in the Proving Grounds too much lately.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

i noticed i kind of contradicted myself again.

anyways, if there was some of just keeping perfect sheilding but still keeping the high sheild stun, sign me up.

 

[The Star King]

On a parry related note, I think that a successful parry should give Yoshi at least 5-10 frames of invulnerability. This is specifically to counter drill moves which **** him when trying to parry. I know this is illogical based on what the current attack lag is on a shield, but I think it would be a beneficial addition.

If you crouch and the opponent knows you're capable of parrying, very often they thinki you are preparing to parry and do an obvious short hop drill. You can djc early to dodge the drill and hit them with an aerial.

I find it difficult to put into words why but I like parrying the way it is now. Drill moves are a counter-measure to parrying but they don't shut down Yoshi's other options. Know when to attempt parrying at the right times.

 

[Dsc]

i noticed i kind of contradicted myself again.

anyways, if there was some of just keeping perfect sheilding but still keeping the high sheild stun, sign me up.

SHIELD* sorry had to.

And i think no shield stun would make
Links grab even worst, or everyones.

So are everyones shield size the same? Jiggs seems ages to break

 

[Sempiternity]

Jiggs seems ages to break

And for good reason!

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

you do realise that yoshi parrying to give him up to 6 frames of invulnerbility. 4 frames for parry and 2 for shield jumping. Obviously you have to be frame perfect though.

 

[dandan]

you do realise that yoshi parrying to give him up to 6 frames of invulnerbility. 4 frames for parry and 2 for shield jumping. Obviously you have to be frame perfect though.

from the data of antd it is 5 frames, 4 for the parry and 1 for any extra action. the first frame of jump, usmash and grab.

 

[th3kuzinator]

If frame perfect, can you parry usmash something like kirby dair?

 

[asianaussie]

probably not if d-air is just beginning, given there's only 1 frame of invinci for u-smash...

if it's ending then maybe

 

[Battlecow]

SHIELD* sorry had to.
Jiggs seems ages to break

Why would you do that?

Anyways, On a somewhat related note, I think we need more parrying in TAS videos.

 

[P D]

why hasn't this thread died yet?

 

[ballin4life]

^^ lol no kidding. Probably because we keep bumping it!

But a 5 page thread on how to do fair z cancel utilt ... that's pretty funny

 

[malva00]

why hasn't this thread died yet?

cuz Isai is in the topic title

 

[Dsc]

Why would you do that?

Anyways, On a somewhat related note, I think we need more parrying in TAS videos.

Why would i correct his spelling?
Or...

 

[Battlecow]

Why would you correct his spelling and then make a really obvious grammar/spelling mistake two sentences later.

 

[The Star King]

You've corrected errors, too, and yet in the post Dsc was quoting, you capitalize "on" in the middle of a sentence.

Can we not correct people? This is the internet.