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Question about gap between PMBR design choices

pkblaze

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X-post from r/smashbros. original comment here: http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/c...day_29_a_fantastic_place_for_smash_qa/ch4h2fw

Why are recoveries so free in PM? Initially I thought of it as a design choice, but the "about" page on their official site says this under design goals:

  • Offstage edgeguarding is risky but rewarding, while on-stage edgeguarding is safer but less rewarding.
  • Recoveries generally require great skill to use, with the advantage usually being with the edgeguarding player, with some exceptions.
So it seems that recoveries like Ivysaur and Zelda go against their design choices. Sure, you can cite the "with some exceptions" clause, but safe and easy recoveries seems to be a pretty prevalent exception. There are tons of tethers, which basically put the greater burden on the edgeguarder rather than the edgeguardee. There are several long ranged teleports which are basically instant, insanely safe, and just as flexible as Fox's recovery.
 

Terotrous

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I think the first point is still generally true, and having the opponent offstage always confers some advantage, however small. The "recoveries require great skill" part does ring a little hollow, though, with a few exceptions most recoveries are pretty simple.
 

Celestis

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While I don't think recoveries are exactly free, I do think some of them need to be nerfed.

Good recoveries are just more noticeable now because more characters are usable unlike Melee.
Zelda, Mario, Mewtwo, Kirby, Samus all had great recoveries, but were just so noticed cause people often never looked past the "Oh em gee, someone is using Mario!" Aspect.
Granted, the tethers do change things up a little bit, but from watching Nintendude play, I have noticed he has figured out the Edge guarding of the tether users and how to punish them cause it forces them to hop the ledge. SO I have a feeling the Tether's won't be to much a of a problem once everyone learns how to handle them like that.

But, ROB I feel has to much flexibility in his recovery.
Ness can recover from way deep, but he also kinda needs it so he is not just gimped every time effortlessly.
Links I think has been buffed a little to much.
Sonic.. Ug... Way to strong, and free to attack after.
 

Praxis

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It's hard to determine which characters have "way too good" recoveries, and which characters have "seemingly really good because no one knows how to edgeguard them" recoveries.

For example, I hear people complain about Diddy's recovery a lot. Diddy's recovery seems impossibly good. However, because the longer you charge the further distance you go, there is only one moment in his entire charge process that he can sweetspot the ledge. As long as you threaten to edgehog during this moment (causing him to miss it by charging longer), Diddy will never sweetspot the ledge.

90% of people I play let me get away with sloppy recovering because they rush to the ledge and I wait out their invincibility frames. However, my practice partner just threatens to ledgehog me during the sweetspot, then...charges a smash. Since once I've charged too long it is impossible to sweetspot- I'm dead. He will tipper me as I cross the ledge, or dsmash me, or whatever he wants depending on the character he is playing.

It's especially bad against Marth and Roy.

Only one person in our scene does this to me effectively and consistently. I can very rarely recover with up-B against him without taking a punish of some sort. Everyone else runs around screaming "nerf Diddy's recovery it's too good zomg!" and lets me get back to the stage. I actually feel like a lot of characters have safer recoveries, even if Diddy gets more distance. (Though I wouldn't be opposed to Diddy having a couple extra frames of landing lag, it's extremely fast.)

I'm not saying Diddy's recovery is bad- in fact, it's above average and very good- but once you put in time in to figuring out how to fight it, on second look, it's not nearly as great as it seems to the uninitiated. The problem is that most people are way, way too jumpy to scream nerf instead of moving the metagame forward and figuring out punishes.

Unlike, say, Mew2King, who makes Diddy's recovery look like a free kill by shinespiking him consistently every single time. ._.
 
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Terotrous

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But, ROB I feel has to much flexibility in his recovery.
Ness can recover from way deep, but he also kinda needs it so he is not just gimped every time effortlessly.
Links I think has been buffed a little to much.
Sonic.. Ug... Way to strong, and free to attack after.
Unfortunately, I don't think you can do much about those. ROB's jetpack is totally key to how he plays. If PK thunder became slower or didn't go as far Ness would be terrible. Link I could agree with, but his recovery largely comes from AGT and bomb jumping, which is kind of just a consequence of the main game mechanics. Sonic's up B would be useless if he went into helplessness after it, and he'd lose many combos.
 

Celestis

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Diddy has amazing coverage as far as distance goes, but sweet spotting him on the ledge is challenging and takes skill to get it. You're right, it is easy to guard against, but that distance just seems so intimidating that he is getting away free.
 

Celestis

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Unfortunately, I don't think you can do much about those. ROB's jetpack is totally key to how he plays. If PK thunder became slower or didn't go as far Ness would be terrible. Link I could agree with, but his recovery largely comes from AGT and bomb jumping, which is kind of just a consequence of the main game mechanics. Sonic's up B would be useless if he went into helplessness after it, and he'd lose many combos.
It's more like sonic's Side b AND Up B. I have no problem with the attack out of up B. Works great on Game and watch. But when you mix Side B in, sonic just comes back from dumb distances. I wish the Side B was not so.. free. If Yoshi loses his jump for using Side B. Why dose not Sonic?.
 

TreK

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It's more like sonic's Side b AND Up B. I have no problem with the attack out of up B. Works great on Game and watch. But when you mix Side B in, sonic just comes back from dumb distances. I wish the Side B was not so.. free. If Yoshi loses his jump for using Side B. Why dose not Sonic?.
Because his side B is cancelled by a double jump. That's like, half of his gameplay right there.
 

Terotrous

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It's more like sonic's Side b AND Up B. I have no problem with the attack out of up B. Works great on Game and watch. But when you mix Side B in, sonic just comes back from dumb distances. I wish the Side B was not so.. free. If Yoshi loses his jump for using Side B. Why dose not Sonic?.
On a technical level I think it's because Sonic Side B is jump cancellable and Yoshi Side B is not. The exception seems to be Ike, but I really hate the fact that QD goes into helpless if performed in the air.
 

Fortress

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So it seems that recoveries like Ivysaur and Zelda go against their design choices. Sure, you can cite the "with some exceptions" clause, but safe and easy recoveries seems to be a pretty prevalent exception. There are tons of tethers, which basically put the greater burden on the edgeguarder rather than the edgeguardee. There are several long ranged teleports which are basically instant, insanely safe, and just as flexible as Fox's recovery.
Hang on, I had a brainwave. Make recoveries like Zelda and Ivysaur's harder... Okay, Zelda's recovery always sends you in a random direction, and Ivysaur's SD's her on sweetspot. Instant non-free recovery.

Seriously, you know how tether recoveries work, right? You can stump them with pretty much anything provided you have a shred of experience and know that your character has aerial attacks. Just drop and bop, dead tether-user.

Zelda's recovery has two options; sweetspot the ledge, or land on stage. If you're an idiot and wait at the ledge with no invincibility, then you're going to get zapped as she comes out, and it's on you. So ledgeguarding the sweetspot should be a cakewalk. If you force her to recover high, then you should be able to take advantage of the fact that there will be ten century's worth of ending lag on the move, which you can use to get her back offstage.

Recoveries are only as free as you're letting them be. Learn to edgeguard, and quit calling recovering 'too easy'.
 
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Sixth-Sense

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the only complaint i have is tether characters auto-reeling in to the ledge, i'm not saying its too good or impossible to punish (it's not hard) but i feel this dumbs down edgeguarding when against the tether characters, and at the same time, i also firmly believe that they are much much much better off with being able to use their tether on any part of a wall or the bottom part of any stage, i'm pretty sure things like recovering and edgeguarding become much more dynamic and fun compared to autosnapping which just seems like a flow chart of what to do if they use their tether
 

ThreeSided

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This is actually a very good point. I also disagree with the ease of recovery on most of the characters, but I had put this to the side because I had essentially just accepted that it was a design choice, but the fact that the design choices listed say otherwise does rekindle my whine response.

That being said, people are making interesting points about people just not knowing how to gimp. The question is, does match up experience count as skill? That is, should my not understanding exactly how X character's recovery works prevent me from being able to gimp them? Or should gimping be generally more intuitive?

Once again, that all comes down to design choice, but I think it's worth discussing.
 

Fortress

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The question is, does match up experience count as skill? That is, should my not understanding exactly how X character's recovery works prevent me from being able to gimp them? Or should gimping be generally more intuitive?

Once again, that all comes down to design choice, but I think it's worth discussing.
The answer is that, in general, all tethers function in the same manner, with major differences being in tether length, tether speed, and 'pull-up' speed. Matchup experience is in its own right considered a measure of player skill. It's something you learn and develop just like anything else. There's fundamental skill, technical ability, and matchup experience. Dealing properly with tethers takes a small amount of matchup experience, and some measure of technical ability to pull off quickly, along with some solid fundamentals in not killing yourself in doing so.

Dealing with tethers isn't impossible by any means. It's simply another manner of recovery that you as the ledgeguarder must take advantage of to net a kill. In fact, if your opponent falls into the habit of always going for the tether (always), you can take advantage of this in several ways. My favorite is by simply jumping out there way before they're in tether range, and simply forcing them to go for a non-tether option that they're not comfortable with, with my off-stage presence alone. Tethers are inherently solid recovery options, but as always dealing with any recovery habit is going to come down to learning how the other player is using their character.
 

κomıc

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You know who has the most gimped recovery?

Yoshi. The genius who thought "Let's break what Sakurai fixed in Brawl" and those who came together in agreement for that joke of a design choice clearly were going hard for making everything like it was in Melee. I just don't get why they had to remove Yoshi's short hop when using Up-B. The fact that someone thought it was okay to break something that was fixed is astounding to me. And his flutter jump isn't even as good as it should be considering he has no real recovery.

And I'm hoping people don't defend PMBR just for sake of being BRs. Just because it took 200 people to work on one game doesn't make the game flawless and this should also apply for Project M (especially).
 

shairn

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Removing the hop from upB allows Yoshi to egg-stall on the ledge IIRC since upB edge cancels so long as you have downward momentum.
 

wiiztec

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You know who has the most gimped recovery?

Yoshi. The genius who thought "Let's break what Sakurai fixed in Brawl" and those who came together in agreement for that joke of a design choice clearly were going hard for making everything like it was in Melee. I just don't get why they had to remove Yoshi's short hop when using Up-B. The fact that someone thought it was okay to break something that was fixed is astounding to me. And his flutter jump isn't even as good as it should be considering he has no real recovery.

And I'm hoping people don't defend PMBR just for sake of being BRs. Just because it took 200 people to work on one game doesn't make the game flawless and this should also apply for Project M (especially).
Well he does have an airdodge recovery now
 

Brim

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Some recoveries need giant help. Like I DUNNO roy

OR at least slightly better, I mean c'mon his recovery may not be worse than Melee but, his opponents didn't already have great options against Roy; or Roy going off stage is practically a death-sentence.
 
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Terotrous

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You know who has the most gimped recovery?

Yoshi. The genius who thought "Let's break what Sakurai fixed in Brawl" and those who came together in agreement for that joke of a design choice clearly were going hard for making everything like it was in Melee. I just don't get why they had to remove Yoshi's short hop when using Up-B.
I do definitely miss the little hop. I guess he does get directional airdodge though so it kind of balances out. Maybe we could consider making Egg Roll not go into helpless instead?


Some recoveries need giant help. Like I DUNNO roy
I definitely agree that Roy needs recovery help. Roy is fairly light, he has high gravity, and among the worst recovery in the game, which basically makes him the weakest character in the game defensively. His offense is decent but not high enough for such a massive handicap in his defence.

I'm not totally sure how you'd fix it though. I contemplated replacing his current side B with a variant of Ike's Quick Draw, making him even more of a Marth / Ike hybrid, but that's a pretty drastic change. QD -> Grab -> FSmash shenanigans would be fun though.
 

MLGF

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Roy's side-b has gunflame as an ender.
I will literally drop this game and go back to Guilty Gear if they get rid of that.
Even though I don't play Roy

Anyways, that's a poor idea. QuickDraw is a huge part of Ike's individual meta. Putting it on someone else wouldn't really work because a good part of Ike is built around it. Meanwhile, Roy does have a defined metagame at the moment and something like quickdraw would completely change that.
 
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κomıc

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I do definitely miss the little hop. I guess he does get directional airdodge though so it kind of balances out. Maybe we could consider making Egg Roll not go into helpless instead?



I definitely agree that Roy needs recovery help. Roy is fairly light, he has high gravity, and among the worst recovery in the game, which basically makes him the weakest character in the game defensively. His offense is decent but not high enough for such a massive handicap in his defence.

I'm not totally sure how you'd fix it though. I contemplated replacing his current side B with a variant of Ike's Quick Draw, making him even more of a Marth / Ike hybrid, but that's a pretty drastic change. QD -> Grab -> FSmash shenanigans would be fun though.
Ehm, it really isn't the same. Because that's like nerfing or removing Squirtle's Up-B and claiming "Well, he has that side B though!"

I just think it would have been best to leave Yoshi's UpB as is. To me, it looks like Yoshi's mechanics were an after thought.
 
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Terotrous

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Anyways, that's a poor idea. QuickDraw is a huge part of Ike's individual meta. Putting it on someone else wouldn't really work because a good part of Ike is built around it. Meanwhile, Roy does have a defined metagame at the moment and something like quickdraw would completely change that.
I dunno, I think it might work well with Roy's tools. Roy generally wants to be close to you, either so he can throw or hit you with his sweetspot, and QD is great for closing distance. QD into Nair or Fair would probably be pretty deadly. Roy also has a very good wavedash, and you can wavedash out of QD. QD -> Wavedash -> Ftilt would be an amazingly scary poke.
 

Celestis

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Ehm, it really isn't the same. Because that's like nerfing or removing Squirtle's Up-B and claiming "Well, he has that side B though!"

I just think it would have been best to leave Yoshi's UpB as is. To me, it looks like Yoshi's mechanics were an after thought.
Yoshi does not need his up B. His flutter jump has super armor giving him a very powerful recovery. Plus, like start up up before. his ledge camping with up B would be lost and that has been a large part of Yoshi's game in Melee. A strong second jump mixed with high air speed makes for a very good recovery. I just wish he did not lose that second jump after using side B.
 
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Cassio

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Yeah people are terrible at edgeguarding in Brawl too.

But for reals, ignoring whether its good or bad game design can we finally acknowledge that recovering in PM is fairly easy and edgeguarding is not reliable?
 

Phaiyte

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On a technical level I think it's because Sonic Side B is jump cancellable and Yoshi Side B is not. The exception seems to be Ike, but I really hate the fact that QD goes into helpless if performed in the air.
Yoshi's double jump is WAAAAAAYY better than Sonic's + super armor and Yoshi gains basically the same extra momentum with sideB. All you have to do is press B to get out of it.
 

1FD

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Roy has a good recovery
Yoshi has a good recovery
Learn to kill stocks better and you'll see how things like tethers or marios or pits all day for free too
NOBODY IS FREE FROM DEATH POSSIBILITIES BELOW 50%
EVERYONE CAN BE GIMPED BY EVERYONE!!!
DO IT
 

Phan7om

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Zelda, Mario, Mewtwo, Kirby, Samus all had great recoveries, but were just so noticed cause people often never looked past the "Oh em gee, someone is using Mario!" Aspect.
This.

Also, people just need to edgeguard. Im sure back when Melee was first being played competitively, they though Peach's recovery was TOO GOOD.
 
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