quantity is as far as we can go

[soviet prince]

this quote has worried me a little it's a quote from Nintendo power

Q: with so much content packed in the previous smash bros game what difficulties do you encounter when creating a new one?

A:"it isent a matter of "if the next game has 50 characters, that'be enough." there is a certain charm to games that have huge cast of playable characters but they tend to have issues with game balance and it becomes very difficult to fine tune each character and have them all feel distinctive,... in terms of quantity we've probably already reached the limit of what's feasible I think a change of direction is what's needed.

what bothers me is the bolded, does that mean no more characters then 35 sense he sees that we reached the limit as far as content

 

[MelMoe]

I hope not. Most people are wanting around 50 characters. The "change in direction" is what worries me most.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Not really concerned. This is just paranoia brought up by nitpicking. Even if this was the case, it's not a bad thing. Why have a bunch of characters if you only play a handful? If everyone is well developed and polished it would bring a greater variety of players.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I suppose my thoughts about 45 characters was a bit generous.

 

[soviet prince]

honestly though if there is no more then 35 characters it really kills my hype, and it will defintly kill my hype if the direction they turn in is to make this a 3d fighter

 

[Kink-Link5]

Why would there be less characters than Brawl?

Actually that isn't unimaginable.

 

[soviet prince]

also if they did keep the number the same look at the cuts that had to be made if they just add 5 new characters

 

[AIM0001]

My prediction has always been 45 anyway.....His main concern was balancing and again we can thank Namco Bandai for joining the Smash team. I mean cmon Tekken 6 has a bunch of characters. Im sure they can handle balancing a Smash roster seeing how its not nearly as deep of a fighter as a Tekken or even a Soul Calibur game is...

 

[soviet prince]

45 is what I was expecting myself but 35 is way to low for the next smash

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

honestly though if there is no more then 35 characters it really kills my hype, and it will defintly kill my hype if the direction they turn in is to make this a 3d fighter

That's not gonna happen. A change in direction is not changing the entire engine of the game that they worked on for more than a decade. Just because Namco Bandai Staff is developing the game doesn't give them the power to influence any changes towards the game. Sakurai is still the Supervisor of the whole project. The talent is there for the talent, Sakurai is there for creative control.

35 characters is still a lot, considering the average player doesn't use that many characters. Staff just needs to pick wisely and its all good.

 

[soviet prince]

35 characters is a lot for brawl but will be a major disappoint is the sequel don't exceed that by atleast 10. Think about it, if they keep the 35 roster then imagine the cuts that would be made in order to fit new characters in

 

[Big-Cat]

That would be because people set their expectations based on previous entries of the series. I wouldn't read too much into that line. He feels that it would be hard to balance beyond 30 something characters, and it would be. What I can see happening is that this becomes the first Smash title to have an updated rerelease like every other fighting game (FACT: Tekken 6 and Tekken Tag Tournament 2 on console are the updated arcade versions of their games. Console users never play the original version.).

Depending on this new direction, it would be enough to rework all the veterans to a new type of system that could make them be considered new characters from a playstyle standpoint.

 

[soviet prince]

well if there is no new characters then I really don't see the point in buying this game, I thought setting my expectations at 45 was low

 

[Kink-Link5]

45 is what I was expecting myself but 35 is way to low for the next smash

Especially since it's less than Brawl had.

 

[Johnknight1]

Honestly, I think Sakurai meant with "quantity is as as we can go" as in NEW QUANTITY, which was already true in Brawl. Think about it. Melee had 14 more characters than Smash 64. Brawl had 13 more characters than Melee. The amount of new characters in Brawl was less than the amount of new characters than in Melee. Similarly, the amount of new stages, items, features, single-player related content, and whatnot in Brawl was also less than all the new stuff of that content in Melee, and sometimes even Smash 64.

In other words, I think what Sakurai is trying to say is "don't expect double of what you got in Brawl." Expect something like 25% more content, including characters. That would put us around 50 characters, which Sakurai keeps saying over and over again, which makes me think 50 characters is the "goal."

As for the idea of cutting characters, that's stupid to expect a smaller roster than Brawl. That's like giving up land you already 100% own and don't pay taxes on! Seriously, all the team needs to do with most characters is transfer their Melee/Brawl data, improve the graphics to fit the game (maybe with new outfits/colors/designs), add some new frames (and maybe some new moves), balance them, and they're done. Simply transferring data from past smash games and improving/adding upon it is much easier and efficient than creating new data for new content in smash. Thus, it would be inefficient to remove much of the cast, and would lower the roster size.

Also, seeing as how Brawl had IMO the best reveal trailer ever, that sure as heck would be hard to top. But for some reason, people on other sites expect like 8 new characters confirmed in the 1st trailer. Other people expect Smash WiiU to be a launch title. WTF? How out of reality to you have to be to believe something that crazy=???

 

[Starphoenix]

John is 100% right!

 

[Haxeye]

Honestly, I think Sakurai meant with "quantity is as as we can go" as in NEW QUANTITY, which was already true in Brawl. Think about it. Melee had 14 more characters than Smash 64. Brawl had 13 more characters than Melee. The amount of new characters in Brawl was less than the amount of new characters than in Melee. Similarly, the amount of new stages, items, features, single-player related content, and whatnot in Brawl was also less than all the new stuff of that content in Melee, and sometimes even Smash 64.

In other words, I think what Sakurai is trying to say is "don't expect double of what you got in Brawl." Expect something like 25% more content, including characters. That would put us around 50 characters, which Sakurai keeps saying over and over again, which makes me think 50 characters is the "goal."

As for the idea of cutting characters, that's stupid to expect a smaller roster than Brawl. That's like giving up land you already 100% own and don't pay taxes on! Seriously, all the team needs to do with most characters is transfer their Melee/Brawl data, improve the graphics to fit the game (maybe with new outfits/colors/designs), add some new frames (and maybe some new moves), balance them, and they're done. Simply transferring data from past smash games and improving/adding upon it is much easier and efficient than creating new data for new content in smash. Thus, it would be inefficient to remove much of the cast, and would lower the roster size.

Also, seeing as how Brawl had IMO the best reveal trailer ever, that sure as heck would be hard to top. But for some reason, people on other sites expect like 8 new characters confirmed in the 1st trailer. Other people expect Smash WiiU to be a launch title. WTF? How out of reality to you have to be to believe something that crazy=???

Dat optism

But unfortunately I don't think there's much wiggle room for interpretation in that quote. Sakurai seemed to clearly be stating that 39 is the limit for the roster that he believes can be balanced and distinct.

But I will also say that his logic is greatly flawed given the fact that 39 is what he balanced (albeit poorly given the number of clones and UP characters) solo and now he has an experienced fighting game team at his disposal so more should definitely be feasible. Plus his job is made even easier by the fact that these characters have source material to draw from yet he still has nonsensical clones likes Ganondorf.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Have you guys ever seen Mario Party 9's ISO? It only uses 794 MB, out of 4.37 GB.

Basically, the last thing we want to think about is seeing Smash 4 not use even half of the potential 25 GB that the Wii U disc is expected to hold up to. That would be a huge waste of free space if that ever happens.

 

[Starphoenix]

Dat optism

But unfortunately I don't think there's much wiggle room for interpretation in that quote. Sakurai seemed to clearly be stating that 39 is the limit for the roster that he believes can be balanced and distinct.

But I will also say that his logic is greatly flawed given the fact that 39 is what he balanced (albeit poorly given the number of clones and UP characters) solo and now he has an experienced fighting game team at his disposal so more should definitely be feasible. Plus his job is made even easier by the fact that these characters have source material to draw from yet he still has nonsensical clones likes Ganondorf.

The wiggle room is that intent can get lost in translation, hence my continual leaning on the "up until now" quote to make a point. No, thirty-nine is not the technical limit of what Sakurai can do, or else after Brawl was released he would not have mentioned that there were more characters he was unable to include.

He's not talking about technical limitations, he is trying to explain how adding to the roster is not the sole reason for making a sequel.

 

[Haxeye]

The wiggle room is that intent can get lost in translation, hence my continual leaning on the "up until now" quote to make a point. No, thirty-nine is not the technical limit of what Sakurai can do, or else after Brawl was released he would not have mentioned that there were more characters he was unable to include.

He's not talking about technical limitations, he is trying to explain how adding to the roster is not the sole reason for making a sequel.

Yes he is saying that just upping the roster isn't enough BUT he is also saying that from a balance point of view 39 is the limit, not a technical memory limit but a gameplay design limit.

 

[Kirbunny431]

...and then Namco-Bandai joined in and Sakurai no longer has to worry about things like that. A whole small team could be dedicated to that so Sakurai doesn't have to do it himself.

 

[Johnknight1]

Yes he is saying that just upping the roster isn't enough BUT he is also saying that from a balance point of view 39 is the limit, not a technical memory limit but a gameplay design limit.

If you want a perfectly balanced game, you either play as just 1 character, 2 characters that are similar and have equal potential, or 3 characters with equal weaknesses. Sakurai realizes that. He is just preparing us for the game to not be totally balanced. I mean, there have been all kinds of poorly balanced characters in each of the 3 smash bros. game thus far.

Also, Sakurai is probably talking more in terms of content and stuff. He is saying he won't add as much as he did in the previous 3 smash games most likely.[COLLAPSE="I mean, in Melee, we got:"]14 new characters, loads of new attacks for many of the original 12, a new "side B" attack, wall teching, wall jumping, tether recovery, all kinds of new advanced techniques, new "Z airs" for some characters, 2 new grab angles, grab pummels, 280 or so more trophies, an adventure mode, an all-star mode, a multi-man stadium mode, a home-run contest mode, 51 event matches, 24 new stages (also 2 redesigns, and 3 Smash 64 stages), loads of "Special" multiplayer modes, new common enemies for the Adventure Mode, more character data, more items, more Pokéball Pokémon, a new time limit option for stock mode, the coin mode multiplayer mode, the bonus mode multiplayer mode, the new stamina mode multiplayer mode, new and improved graphics, new and improved lighting, new physics on a new in-house Nintendo engine, and all kinds of new options, all of which weren't in Smash 64.[/COLLAPSE][COLLAPSE="In Brawl, we got:"]17 new characters (and 4 cut characters, and 1 redesigned), some new moves and tricks for returning characters, footstool hopping, roof teching, wall clinging, gliding, all kinds of new advanced techniques, a brand new online multiplayer, a multiplayer-event matches stadium mode, a multiplayer multi-man stadium, mode, a multiplayer event matches mode, a multiplayer home-run contest mode, online multiplayer stadium modes, a boss battle stadium mode, a brand new story mode that you could play with a friend locally, mix and max "special" modes where you could apply all kinds of changes, new Pokéball Pokémon, a Pokéball-esk items called "Assist Trophies" with "Assist Trophy characters," new common enemies, new stickers, a sticker ball where you could power up your adventure mode characters, new and improved graphics, new lighting, new physics on a new engine (the Havok engine), and all kinds of new options, all of which weren't in Melee.[/COLLAPSE]The only obvious additions to that list are more of everything listed (stages, characters, items, etc.), maybe up to 6 player gameplay, more online modes (up to 4 players?), and some new modes and stuff. However, if you limit yourself to really just that, you aren't being creative; you are just adding on stuff and "updating" that game. Sakurai doesn't want to do that, and we don't want that. Even if the game fails to meet our expectations, at least we know that Sakurai was trying to give us a brand new smash bros. experience, like all smash bros. games before it. That and we can always mod it and turn it into a golden game!

 

[Starphoenix]

Yes he is saying that just upping the roster isn't enough BUT he is also saying that from a balance point of view 39 is the limit, not a technical memory limit but a gameplay design limit.

No, that is not what he is saying at all. He isn't definitively saying no more characters can be added, just that, much as he has said in the past, there isn't much more that you can add. That does not equate to having a higher roster count.

 

[soviet prince]

Hopefully it is being misquoted 39 characters for the next game is pure awful, sakurai also forgets that online patches can help balance things they he missed post release

 

[Haxeye]

No, that is not what he is saying at all. He isn't definitively saying no more characters can be added, just that, much as he has said in the past, there isn't much more that you can add. That does not equate to having a higher roster count.

I really do but it's hard to disregard what he's saying when it seems to explicitly state that the 39 character roster is roughly the limit.

 

[lordvaati]

that awkward moment when people take a statement from 2 months ago and read it the wrong way.

 

[Johnknight1]

I really do but it's hard to disregard what he's saying when it seems to explicitly state that the 39 character roster is roughly the limit.

No, he's saying that he passed the limit of characters he could nearly perfectly balance. Honestly, he probably passed that mark in Melee. Again, the heart of what Sakurai is trying to say is that the feasible amount of characters to balance was passed a long time ago, and that we're not gonna get 50 new characters or some crazy number above around 15.

And really, we've got 39 characters already designed and nearly ready for the next smash bros game. It's called the entire Brawl roster! It's not like Sakurai and co. can't just transfer that over from Brawl (plus maybe the 4 characters in Melee that didn't make it in Brawl) and just improve upon them. That wouldn't take them much time.

Ahhh you Sakurai rookies you! Taking things he says so literally! "There’s a character named Ness who has appeared in the Smash Bros. series Up until now..."

 

[Haxeye]

that awkward moment when people take a statement from 2 months ago and read it the wrong way.

Oh if it's two months old then that changes a lot, Namdai wasn't even announced to be working on the project at that point.

 

[Johnknight1]

Just to let you know, I am pretty sure I saw that UFO somewhere...

But for reaLZs, Sakurai is trying to do fan base control. People on Nintendo's facebook page are clamoring for Smash WiiU to be a launch title, despite the game being in development since February, and it being only one of two smash games. These people either are impatient, or only want 11 poorly balanced playable characters on 13 stages with piss poor graphics, shading, and incomplete rendering!

 

[Starphoenix]

I really do but it's hard to disregard what he's saying when it seems to explicitly state that the 39 character roster is roughly the limit.

The problem is I've been through this before years ago when nearly everyone believed Ness was removed because of the DOJO update. "Up until now..." I saw people sit down and grammatically break down the structure of the sentence to prove that Ness was gone, and people needed to accept reality. Well, we know how that went. This time it's a lot easier for me to say that this quote is being taken too literally because I get what he is trying to say. It is not "we cannot add any more" as much as he is saying "yeah, we could add more characters, but we pretty much have hit the limit anyways." That is something he has been saying for years. I think most of us already realize that as well, but that does not mean we won't have new characters (or other content for that matter). Do you understand (or anyone for that matter) what I'm trying to say? Perhaps I am not the best at articulating my arguments (I know brevity I lack) but I'm just trying to stop this cycle.

 

[Haxeye]

The problem is I've been through this before years ago when nearly everyone believed Ness was removed because of the DOJO update. "Up until now..." I saw people sit down and grammatically break down the structure of the sentence to prove that Ness was gone, and people needed to accept reality. Well, we know how that went. This time it's a lot easier for me to say that this quote is being taken too literally because I get what he is trying to say. It is not "we cannot add any more" as much as he is saying "yeah, we could add more characters, but we pretty much have hit the limit anyways." That is something he has been saying for years. I think most of us already realize that as well, but that does not mean we won't have new characters (or other content for that matter). Do you understand (or anyone for that matter) what I'm trying to say? Perhaps I am not the best at articulating my arguments (I know brevity I lack) but I'm just trying to stop this cycle.

I remember that up until now thing (I've lurked smashboards on and off for a long time, since late 01 when there was a lot cross character fan fics and when it was only Smash World forums iirc) and at that time I thought there was nothing to interpret since up until now could just mean presently. The issue here is that Sakurai seems to clearly and plainly stating something, this differs from the Ness comment because the Ness comment wasn't meant to divulge important info of what to expect from the game whereas this comment is meant to lower people's expectations.

Though I do believe that this comment fits along with Sakurai's other comment recently on 3rd party inclusion and both may only serve the purpose to cushion Sakurai in case he can't do what he truly has planned. By lowering people's expectations on roster count & 3rd party inclusion it makes it easier for Sakurai to exceed people's expectations and pleasntly surprise them. So I do think this could just be anti-hype but his statement still is what it is and I'd rather expect the worst while hoping for the best.

 

[Pseudomaniac]

I like how everyone is flipping out over this even though he directly contradicted the notion that there would be no new characters by saying that Megaman being included in the game was a "possibility".

 

[lordvaati]

even more so since this actual statement was even before Namco was involved.

 

[SmashChu]

The wiggle room is that intent can get lost in translation, hence my continual leaning on the "up until now" quote to make a point. No, thirty-nine is not the technical limit of what Sakurai can do, or else after Brawl was released he would not have mentioned that there were more characters he was unable to include.

He's not talking about technical limitations, he is trying to explain how adding to the roster is not the sole reason for making a sequel.

There are a lot of fighting games that have more than that now anyway.

The thing is, understand the context, not the exact words.

 

[Tollhouse]

A lot of people forget that translations are not always accurate. The whole update with Lucas saying Ness was out was one of those examples.

 

[Kink-Link5]

A lot of people forget that translations are not always accurate. The whole update with Lucas saying Ness was out was one of those examples.

And it totally had nothing to do with people overanalysing the statement at all.

 

[Johnknight1]

^^^ LOLLLLL!!!!

But for real, the 2 games are in "phase 1" of development, so it's not like Sakurai knows what are in both games!

People are over-analyzing every statement Sakurai makes and translating it in all kinds of way that destroy the purpose of what he is trying to address. The translation issue isn't the language, but rather, the lack of comprehension as to what Sakurai is trying to say, get across, and us the fans to understand about these 2 forthcoming smash bros. games.

Sakurai probably just gets tired of Twitter posts demanding a 2012 release, 500 newcomers plus a playable bush fairy, a thousand new trophies, 800 stages (500 from the Legend of Zelda series alone), 37 different bosses, online with no lag whatsoever, 5,000 new modes, customizable everything to extremes, and a single-player mode that takes longer to beat than all of the quest and mini-quests of a MMORPG!!!

 

[soviet prince]

I like how everyone is flipping out over this even though he directly contradicted the notion that there would be no new characters by saying that Megaman being included in the game was a "possibility".

there will be new characters but I am worried by that comment that there will not be any more then 39 so alot of veterans will not return

even more so since this actual statement was even before Namco was involved.

namco could have been involoved then just was not announced until recently?

 

[Carlo_H.Luz]

Balancing the game sounds hard. But they can sell the game with 40 characters and sell more characters in the future. They would have all the time they need to continue expanding the game. If there is a game that can be Megaexpandable, it is SSB and that means a lot of Fan service and Our money in Nintendo's wallets. All win!!

 

[El Duderino]

Pick 2 and only 2 to improve or expand on: