It also had stuff like Metal Slug though. It was kind of just, "Take anything and everything you want." Perhaps they knew the odds of getting a second fighter was extremely low.
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Pyra/Mythra's Costumes
- Thread starter Sari
- Start date
Xelha
Smash Rookie
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I don't think I'm delusional when it's actually a thing that happened.
Xenoblade Chronicles 2 wouldn't exists without that "some game from another franchise" called Xenogears. And if you've played all the games (not sure of you have) you would know Takahashi loves reusing stuff from Xenogears and Xenosaga. XC2 has stuff ripped right out of Xenogear's and Xenosaga's story, so even though he doesn't have to rights to those games anymore you can tell he wants to continue them with Xenoblade somehow.
So I'm not sure why you're so upset about an alt color when Pyra/Mythra's stage is a celebration and represents the full cast of playable characters and all the Titans you visit. It's really odd to get hung up on this. Why does it bother you? Xenoblade, especially XC2, isn't going away any time soon.
Square Enix owns the rights to Xenogears, but the people that actually made it left and founded Monolithsoft. And Monolithsoft has referenced their past works many times.
Either it's Weltall or something else as a reference. The closest XC2 reference could be Ophion, but even then that's still missing key colors, and is still kind of a Xenogears reference.
None of those things make it the same series. Can you find me one official source saying they are the same series? You can owe your existence as a series to something without being that something. Metroid was partially influenced by ALIEN, but it's not part of the movie franchise obviously, even if the original game threw nods toward it (Ridley essentially is a reference to the series, at least back in the day, but that's baked into his design and name). Sonic largely owes his existence to Super Mario Bros. (though the same might could be said for most modern platformers). May not be as reference heavy to each other, but going ham on the references in the latest game doesn't make them the same series. You can pay homage, or even be the spiritual successor without being the same series (see Yooka-Laylea). Another example somewhat close to home to me would be Tear Rising Saga. A Fire Emblem ripoff essentially made by the series creator. Though the fanbase doesn't seem to be clamoring to treat them as the same series (though they were similar enough Nintendo sued), at least one wiki includes content from it...for some reason. The Smash site itself lists them as Xenoblade Chronicles, not Xeno. Saying that there is a "Xeno" series is delusional (having false or unrealistic beliefs or opinions) because the idea they are the same series is factually incorrect. That said, that's all more so an issue with the community and the fact this probably just feeds those delusions. Did they love cramming references in 2? Sure. Does that make them the same? No. Does that mean that instead of referencing their own game like most one offs that they should reference it's spiritual predecessor? I don't think so.
The, perhaps more pressing issue, is that a XC2 reference had to be cut for this. Most of the others, as I keep saying, don't have to give up stuff from their own game or series. Shulk didn't. There are more than 7(14) XC2 things they could do, so every one of these is one less thing from 2. What are we losing? Party member colors? Swaps? A costume? Will any of them actually reference their game or even series of origin? Will the spirits be skewed away from it? I don't know, but I worry. Perhaps my concerns are unfounded, but they did show this first and are hiding their alts.
Also, referencing a reference is still at least from 2. Though, at the same time while it's almost certainly that mech, the lighting may affect it.
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Bobert
"...And His Music Was Electric"
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They're not the same series but they are technically the same franchise. The Zohar and characters from those past games are present in XB2. The Zohar itself playing a massive role in the story, being where Mythra actually draws her power from and is responsible for keeping the World Tree from crashing onto the planet and destroying it. In fact to go even further, Shulk's universe exists entirely because of Klaus using it to create a new universe. They go really far out of their way to tie Xenoblade to the past games. I do think you're worrying too much about alt colors though, especially before they even show them. Again, I would be more worried about whether they actually look good or not.
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AnEasterEgg
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Isn't the Conduit just an expy of the Zohar, not literally the same thing?
The Conduit is not actually the Zohar. Just a very on the nose reuse of a macguffin design and debatably origin depending on how much merit you put in out of game material. People insisting on calling it what it isn't is also a major pet peeve of mine for the series. Maybe he wants to combine them one day, but it's beyond their means at the moment. As it stands, they legally cannot be the same franchise without some sort of deal or changing hands of IP, and you can't actually prove any of this.
As for the character reuse, one, those are cameos. Clearly they aren't the same characters on account of, you know, being blades which the real ones clearly weren't. KOS-MOS even has a different name in Japanese.
Looked expy up, but, yeah, it's essentially a copycat, but not literally the Zohar without some sort of official confirmation. To believe otherwise is to go against the facts.
As for the character reuse, one, those are cameos. Clearly they aren't the same characters on account of, you know, being blades which the real ones clearly weren't. KOS-MOS even has a different name in Japanese.
Looked expy up, but, yeah, it's essentially a copycat, but not literally the Zohar without some sort of official confirmation. To believe otherwise is to go against the facts.
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ES. Dinah
Smash Ace
Conduit being in the background doesn't make it the Zohar. The dude really likes that shape. Why are you ignoring, you know, copyright law? They legally do not own the rights to make them the same. Monolith and Nintendo do not own the rights to the Zohar. They do not own the rights to the guest characters. They were on loan.
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Gleam
Smash Ace
It's amazing how badly you all are trying to convince yourself this isn't a Xenoblade 2 reference.
We've skipped Xenoblade 2, we've skipped Xenoblade in general, we've even skipped Xenosaga and now were at the bare bottom with Xenogears.
Then, instead of referencing a primary character of importance like Fei or Elly...our reference is the robot.
There's a point where even the most arduous of Xenogears supporters should be thinking to yourself. "There's no way Sakurai's that desperate."
We've skipped Xenoblade 2, we've skipped Xenoblade in general, we've even skipped Xenosaga and now were at the bare bottom with Xenogears.
Then, instead of referencing a primary character of importance like Fei or Elly...our reference is the robot.
There's a point where even the most arduous of Xenogears supporters should be thinking to yourself. "There's no way Sakurai's that desperate."
Have you seen the Xenoblade sub? They seem to believe it hook line and sinker. Even I'm inclined to agree, and I hate it. Maybe the lighting is messing with it. Maybe. But then why is Pyra there to seemingly recreate a scene? Wouldn't really make sense for Poppi. Maybe Ophion, but, I don't know about that. It being on the more obscure end is also part of what makes it worrying.
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Gleam
Smash Ace
Well I'm certainly waiting for those other alts. I mean imagine the possibilities...
Pyra: Morag, Nia, Zeke and Vandham
Mythra: Brighid, Dromach, Pandoria........Weltall!
Pyra: Morag, Nia, Zeke and Vandham
Mythra: Brighid, Dromach, Pandoria........Weltall!
ES. Dinah
Smash Ace
The conduit is even called the Zohar in the game's asset files. CHOCO drew the 10th anniversary art and he worked on Xenosaga AND Xenoblade 2. It's quite really obvious that the Zohar is meant to be the conduit and you're ignoring it because you dont care about any of the other Xeno games that brought you Xenoblade. And I'M ignoring copyright law? Do you not know that Monolith Soft and Namco have a very good friendship and even got KOS-MOS redesigned? The fact you even call it on loan is hilarious.
also KOS-MOS is the same one from Xenosaga otherwise she wouldn't know T-ELOS. There's proof she's the same one and you can even take it from the designers of KOS-MOS:
Reddit - Dive into anything
www.reddit.com
Oh look.... built by Shion Uzuki and Allen in Xenoblade 2!
but let's ignore that too. Whether you like it or not Xeno is a multiverse and future connected already showed that. So YES it makes perfect sense to have a Weltall alt and I wouldn't be surprised if there are more such as KOS-MOS. I can't believe you can even appreciate Xenoblade 2 and dont care about the other Xeno fans... it sounds like your refusal to accept that it is a weltall reference is taking it out on everyone else. Tell me what exactly Pyra vs Poppi would be referencing?
The image Sakurai posted makes more sense that Pyra is represented by Weltall ID and Mythra is Weltall
Pyra: Red, Black, Gold colours
Mythra's alt is exactly like Weltall while Pyra is Weltall ID.
So even with all the evidence it isn't Poppi, it still has a chance to be Poppi because Poppi may directly be a Weltall reference herself considering she's a mech. I'm just saying right now without Sakurai's word it is Weltall because it ACTUALLY makes sense why she would be fighting Pyra in normal colours.
Are you, are you serious? Because the same artist drew something? Because of a codename? They literally cannot be the same people because they are blades, something the originals aren't. They come from crystals. KOS-MOS literally has an altered name in Japanese. Nor do they really know each other outside of some tongue and cheek lines of dialogue. Bear in mind, all cameos. They reference the source in her design, so what? That's a cameo. The devs having a little fun.The conduit is even called the Zohar in the game's asset files. CHOCO drew the 10th anniversary art and he worked on Xenosaga AND Xenoblade 2. It's quite really obvious that the Zohar is meant to be the conduit and you're ignoring it because you dont care about any of the other Xeno games that brought you Xenoblade. And I'M ignoring copyright law? Do you not know that Monolith Soft and Namco have a very good friendship and even got KOS-MOS redesigned? The fact you even call it on loan is hilarious.
also KOS-MOS is the same one from Xenosaga otherwise she wouldn't know T-ELOS. There's proof she's the same one and you can even take it from the designers of KOS-MOS:
Reddit - Dive into anything
Oh look.... built by Shion Uzuki and Allen in Xenoblade 2!
but let's ignore that too. Whether you like it or not Xeno is a multiverse and future connected already showed that. So YES it makes perfect sense to have a Weltall alt and I wouldn't be surprised if there are more such as KOS-MOS. I can't believe you can even appreciate Xenoblade 2 and dont care about the other Xeno fans... it sounds like your refusal to accept that it is a weltall reference is taking it out on everyone else. Tell me what exactly Pyra vs Poppi would be referencing?
The image Sakurai posted makes more sense that Pyra is represented by Weltall ID and Mythra is Weltall
Pyra: Red, Black, Gold colours
Mythra's alt is exactly like Weltall while Pyra is Weltall ID.
So even with all the evidence it isn't Poppi, it still has a chance to be Poppi because Poppi may directly be a Weltall reference herself considering she's a mech. I'm just saying right now without Sakurai's word it is Weltall because it ACTUALLY makes sense why she would be fighting Pyra in normal colours.
And you are still neglecting the real world here. They. Do. Not. Own. The. Rights. They aren't the same franchise. Both series can be multiverse, but not the same multiverse. You have literally no conclusive evidence. The KOS-MOS stuff is contradictory due to her being a blade. The dev is clearly a fan of cameos and references, but the fanbase apparently has trouble deciphering fun novelty from actual lore. And, yes, it was essentially on loan. Look at her figurine. Monolith doesn't own her. Companies often put in little bonuses. Is Xenoblade tied to BotW cause they added Rex's outfit? You realize there are theories trying to link together a ton of unrelated gaming franchises through cameos, right? Or do you believe Metal Gear, Castlevania, Silent Hill, and Bomberman are all the same franchise? All four have been in a mainline game together as fully playable characters.
Without some official statement from Nintendo/Namco/SE/Monolith, they simply aren't the same franchises.
Also, I said I think it is the whatever reference, I just don't like it.
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Gleam
Smash Ace
Also you people do realize that, you could make references with characters without those character directly being designed to be those characters.
Think of taking a game like Melee and having Giant Bowser or Giga Bowser fight Link in reference to Ganon. Bowser is there to reference Ganon but Bowser by himself was never meant to be based on Ganon. So even if Sakurai wanted to make a quick Xenogears reference through the picture, doesn't mean that Mythra's outfit was specifically designed to be Weltall.
Think of taking a game like Melee and having Giant Bowser or Giga Bowser fight Link in reference to Ganon. Bowser is there to reference Ganon but Bowser by himself was never meant to be based on Ganon. So even if Sakurai wanted to make a quick Xenogears reference through the picture, doesn't mean that Mythra's outfit was specifically designed to be Weltall.
Gleam
Smash Ace
It's Occam's Razor.
I have to make a lot less assumptions to say it's Poppi, than I do with Weltall.
I have to make a lot less assumptions to say it's Poppi, than I do with Weltall.
ES. Dinah
Smash Ace
That's why we have to wait for Xenoblade 3 but that's my evidence until then. And no, the KOS-MOS stuff isn't contradictory one bit. KOS-MOS was probably the first blade and why she knows so much about Alrest and the space station. Did you even do her heart to heart Daybreak? The figurine has both Monolith Soft and Namco copyrights. What does Xenoblade and Botw have to do with eachother? I linked you stuff from the official Xenoblade 2 Alrest artbook. You are getting super carried away here.
Sure, without some statement it's not canon but I mean if you play Future connected the theme is literally All life walking hand in hand.... and Shulk hears this from Alvis at the end of Xenoblade 1 and then Shulk is reminded of it AGAIN when he meets Mythra, Elma, KOS-MOS in Elma's Xenoblade 2 blade quest. Can you even blame me for thinking it may as well be canon? I'm not shoving Xenogears or Xenosaga down your throat here and rather just trying to prove a point to you that those references do make sense in smash. I can't believe how bothered you are by one alt. If Sakurai shows an Elma alt and KOS-MOS alt next week are you going to get more angry? Why can't Sakurai change it up?
Of course it had Monolith and Nintendo on it, it was using the XC2 name. Meanwhile the others only had the Nintendo/Monolith Soft (notice those two were grouped together unlike Namco).
If you think cameos are canon, then that is a whole other can of worms (like the Rex outfit in BotW, or like, the entirety of the Bomberman R or whatever it was). KOS-MOS being the artbook isn't really a stretch either cause she is a blade in the game. Being a guest character might actually make her more likely to get shown off. Putting her creators in there is a nice little reference if you catch it, but it's hardly enough to base a theory on that links the games. Or would you like to explain Samus and LInk appearing in Mario RPG? Cameos aren't that special. And unless you're doing a theory for fun, should probably just be enjoyed and move on. Otherwise they can become quite the rabbit hole. Like, a lot of Nintendo franchises are connected if you take the Great Cave Offensive cameos as hard evidence as opposed to fun nods.
Except, KOS-MOS doesn't have core crystal originally. Being the first blade doesn't really work either as the Architect made the blades I think using technology from the station (and a failed experiment from the sounds of it). He did not make the real KOS-MOS. Even if the fake was one of the first blades, she would almost certainly have become a titan by the time of the game. Besides, there's the issue of the whole memory wipe thing. Knowledge doesn't really accumulate between awakenings. Also, pretty sure the whole land of challenge isn't canon either. Xenoblade 1 and 2 are definitely connected, but Rex and Shulk probably never met (Smash is Smash too, so don't go throwing the trailer at me).
I mean, you did seem like you trying to state it as fact that they are connected. And the references may be fine in 2, but I would much rather that in Smash it reference itself rather than something entirely different. Pyra and Mythra are stepping up to the plate for their game, and to take away the bountiful potential of 2 itself to give it to another series in references...I don't care for it. I'm not here for those games. 2 could more than fill out all the slots with some left over. It's not like they're hurting for content. Plus, come on, don't tell me a Malos and Jin one wouldn't be cool with a purple core crystal?
Also, yes, I probably would be if it was KOS-MOS themed. I'm kinda expecting it already, but, like I said, I want 2 content. I'm a XC2 fan, not a Xenogears/saga fan. I want XC2's representation to represent it. That, and, again, not fueling the..."theories."
Seriously though, if you admit it's not canon, why try to insist they are connected? They're very on the nose, and they may try a real crossover, but without some work, it just isn't the case. Not at the moment at least.
G Gleam uh, you sure about that? You're kinda assuming Pyra is there for no good reason and the colors are off for...some reason.
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Gleam
Smash Ace
Agree to disagree but imo, those colors don't look so off as to completely deny the possibility of it being Poppi. I mean it's got the purple hair, it's got the red, it's got the long hair (not that this matters much) Poppi's an important Xenoblade 2 character and the only real thing off is maybe the purple compared to Poppi's black in her official artwork.
But, even that is hardly something to take offense to. It's not like they made it green.
I will again say, Occam's Razor. I don't have any reasons to try to find some complicated answer, if a simple one exists and as far as I'm concerned right now, PoppiQTpi fits more than enough criteria.
But, even that is hardly something to take offense to. It's not like they made it green.
I will again say, Occam's Razor. I don't have any reasons to try to find some complicated answer, if a simple one exists and as far as I'm concerned right now, PoppiQTpi fits more than enough criteria.
Bobert
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They go pretty far out of their way to imply that they're the same thing. It's pretty much there to tie the series together with past ones. There's no reason for it to be there plotwise otherwise. They could have just said that when Klaus died, they lose their powers, or rather they didn't really need to lose their powers at all. But they went so far out of their way to include the Zohar and make it the reason for the entire Xenoblade series in the first place. Even making it the reason Shulk's world exists at all. I've never even played Xenogears or Xenosaga, but trying to deny that it's the same thing just seems silly. As Dinah said, the model for it is literally called the Zohar in the files and there's official art of all of the Xenoblade characters next to the Zohar in it's original design. We even have KOS-MOS and T-elos in the game, with a DLC quest with all of the Xeno characters even reflecting on events from their own games. They even make a big deal out of KOS-MOS being there, including her in a special cutscene with Rex, Mythra, Shulk, Fiora, and Elma. Any attempt to try to disconnect the series is seriously reaching, but it's a shame this has become such a big argument because of a single alternate costume.
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One might argue it's not exactly a great argument to take Easter eggs, fan service, and literal file names to build this case. It's not the Zohar unless stated otherwise. People act like he can magically tie them all together, but it's not so simple. Without some sort of arrangment, Monolith doesn't have the rights to connect them. Why is it so hard to accept the name as given? The mere fact so much of this counts on likely non-canon fan service should tell you something. Seriously, that's not the real KOS-MOS (how can anyone think that?) It's a blade that looks like her. Paying homage to a series past with a fan servicy conversation doesn't suddenly give them a connected lore. Why is fan service being taken so seriously (as if it were even the real one)? It doesn't have to have some deeper meaning, why are you assuming it does? Are you expecting Nintendo to shell out the money to buy Xenosaga or something? Why can't Xenoblade just be it's own thing? Is it so hard to believe they just have similar mcguffins? You're saying it's more likely that these different series owned by three different companies that none of which have said anything about a connected universe being all the same franchise is more likely? Even Xenoblade itself seems disconnected as outside the fan service DLC there seems to be little to no connection between X and the numbered entries. Plus, he seems focused on expanding the Xenoblade brand. Why go backwards?
But, at the end of it all, no one can really seem to answer the whole copyright issue outside of, they have good relations. Yeah, Nintendo gets a lot of characters on loan (sorta) for Smash, doesn't mean they get to do whatever they want with those franchises. Have you ever considered that the Conduit may be his new Zohar? Reference the past while building the future of Xenoblade. It clearly serves a very similar purpose, but revisiting an old idea doesn't make everything connected, and, no, a Game Theory level theory doesn't prove it.
But, at the end of it all, no one can really seem to answer the whole copyright issue outside of, they have good relations. Yeah, Nintendo gets a lot of characters on loan (sorta) for Smash, doesn't mean they get to do whatever they want with those franchises. Have you ever considered that the Conduit may be his new Zohar? Reference the past while building the future of Xenoblade. It clearly serves a very similar purpose, but revisiting an old idea doesn't make everything connected, and, no, a Game Theory level theory doesn't prove it.
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Lamperouge
Drifting Soul
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They're just ****ing colors, man. Why are you getting so worked up over there potentially being references to Gears and Saga?
amageish
Smash Master
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— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) March 2, 2021
Speaking of references and Sakurai tweets...
This may be a bad sign for Disguised Pyra being an alt? Or at least, it feels like it may be a reference...
Or Sakurai just felt like breaking Twitter with cute girls in animal ears; idk.
Also, we're still getting photos with Pyra and Mythra both in their default costumes standing alongside each other... I still find that a bit thought-provoking.
As for them both being default, it's almost certainly some sort debug mode.
Disguised Pyra was kinda always an uphill battle since it meant more work and Mythra didn't have anything to match. So, unfortunately, seems like we won't be getting the hoodie/poncho.
Disguised Pyra was kinda always an uphill battle since it meant more work and Mythra didn't have anything to match. So, unfortunately, seems like we won't be getting the hoodie/poncho.
AnEasterEgg
Smash Journeyman
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It's a reference to it, which might be a bad sign, but I don't consider it a hard deconfirm for a disguise alt. They could just not want to reveal it yet.
amageish
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It probably and it's not a surprise that Sakurai's pic use a debug mode, but I do still find it just a bit odd how the Smash official page and website also use it for Pyra/Mythra pictures. It's, uh, generally not considered best practice to advertise games via things that cannot be accomplished in said game...
I still think there's a chance their alts won't be tethered to each other and will be independently selected, but still... it's probably just debug mode....
True. If it was in, then I wouldn't expect it to be revealed via Sakurai's twitter. Nintendo knows the value in live reaction videos for advertising at this point; I'm sure they want to have some secrets for people to go
on camera over...
AnEasterEgg
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Just imagine how much fan art (and "fan art") would be made of such an alt instantly.
I.D.
Smash Lord
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I think there's a chance of their costumes being independent, this is the first time they've been so secretive with alts, if they are going to wait until presentation to reveal it gives them something to talk about.
Also they have already confirmed their swords maintain their colors regardless of alts so there would be no clarity issues.
Also they have already confirmed their swords maintain their colors regardless of alts so there would be no clarity issues.
Swords wouldn't help anyway as if they're always normal, you could still end up in a mirror match, just with normal looking weapons. I don't really see how they could be independent unless Pyra and Mythra each have unique alts for the other which...would be quite a few. Odds are they're sharing a spot on the selection screen too, so it seems even less likely they're independent. Plus, we at least know their standard looks are tied to each other since we saw them switch.
I.D.
Smash Lord
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L switches pyra's costume, R switches Mythra's, boom. Smash team has solved bigger problems.
amageish
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Yeah, that's about what I was thinking! Then if you do the drop-down menu alt selection thing, you just pick Pyra's first and then Mythra's.
The alts could still be thematically tied to one another in whatever way (i.e., both of their 2nd/3rd/4th/etc alts reference the same things), but you would just be free to mix and match.
It would be an objectively unnecessary feature that only a few people would use, but also that's kind of been the name of the game with the DLC. I mean, the MineCraft stage requires you memorizing a set of button combos to pick what biome you want lol.
I.D.
Smash Lord
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Nah, I'd be surprised if a feature like this wasn't popular. Pretty much everyone likes picking their favorite colors.
I don't know, that would mean reprogramming how it works just for them seeing as L and R both already have functions. Seems unlikely to me. Would also kind of eliminate the option to go forward or backwards with them depending on the button assigned. Not to mention the hold down the "A" button feature. Seems like a somewhat cobbled together solution that doesn't seem like their style.
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Starlight Liger
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Gleam
Smash Ace
I feel the biggest obstacle in us getting a "Pyra Hoodie" alt is the fact that it has so many potential Xenoblade 2 references going against it. Let's say they do want Pyra to have the refs be the Drivers.
1.)Rex
2.) Nia
3.)Morag
4.)Tora
5.)Zeke
6.) Vandham
That's already filling up 6/7 of those alt slots already. And then you've got potentials of Pneuma, Jin, Malos, etc. It wouldn't surprise me if references such as these, which are fairly important to the Xenoblade 2 lore, got in over her costume. In the end, the hoodie has a lot of competition.
1.)Rex
2.) Nia
3.)Morag
4.)Tora
5.)Zeke
6.) Vandham
That's already filling up 6/7 of those alt slots already. And then you've got potentials of Pneuma, Jin, Malos, etc. It wouldn't surprise me if references such as these, which are fairly important to the Xenoblade 2 lore, got in over her costume. In the end, the hoodie has a lot of competition.
Starlight Liger
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This video does an amazing job theorising as to what Pyra and Mythra's alternate outfits could end up becoming.