PYP Mafia - Game Ova

[Orboknown]

That's how all of these scum PR's work except for witch (which we should never give), if our PR dies then their PR has no purpose.

Can anyone see any reason why they would give us an investigation role? I can't, and can't really imagine they would ever do so. Everyone in this game has played multiple games before, so the mafia isn't making noob mistakes. An all vanilla game would be purer, but that works towards us as much as it works towards them.

Well, whats worse, the investigative or the double soc and the armor guard, which also functions as an investigative? Id rather not have to worry about kills being blocked

 

[Xivii]

I find discussing what scum would or wouldn't do is of little value. I think presuming to know what scum would or wouldn't do is fallible. I prefer the game I can't lose to the game that may have a pay off or may have a down side.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

I find myself agreeing with your train of thought, Zen, but I have an interesting plan in mind. I just want #HBC | Ryker and #HBC | Red Ryu to post their thoughts on what we should do first before I go into it, as it may influence their votes otherwise.

 

[ranmaru]

Absolute no from me on giving mafia the decoy role. It's the same thing as a roleblocker which is a useful ability for mafia to have no matter what role they chose to give us. We're not giving mafia that role under any circumstance. Same for Day Witch.

No to Decoy, no to Day witch. So for you it seems you prefer Tailor > Poisoner > Detective. I want to point out that detective can also be useful regardless of role, thoughts on that and poisoner?

On phone. Will elaborate more later, but I'm leaning more towards the poisoner than everything else atm. Don't agree with the cp strat, could be playing right into scum's hands, especially if scum is pushing it.

I agree, I'm not interested in CP'ing either due to wifom factor. This rules out tailor for me as well, albeit a good option in that particular scenario, I agree that we can't act on knowledge we do not have.

My order is Detective > Poisoner > Decoy > Tailor > Witch.

We shouldn't presume to know what mafia picked. The primary goal should be to allow mafia the least bit of control regardless of what pr they picked for us. The secondary goal should be to maximize the amount of use or control our pr has regardlesd of what it is.

Can you elaborate on control? I see you mention that quite a bit and I'm confused on it.

I'd take all vanilla game over letting scum have information. This is what is most important to me. PR's are only a crutch and that crutch might be gone on our side if mafia hits our PR, but so will theirs as poisoning will serve no purpose.

I agree. It is why I prefer decoy above all else. Negative to decoy is that a pr can possibly be blocked, but they'd only lose information. Poisoner would mean they'd be able to kill anyone, and that's worse than a loss of information in my eyes. Witch is a no no for me since we can't function without public flip. Tailor is a no for me since it's cp/wifom.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Zen's absolutely right in that we shouldn't read into what the mafia did/didn't choose and instead make a decision that benefits us the most, not counter-acting whatever they choose because we have no clue.

I can see people talk about decoy and how allowing the PR to get results instead of being immediately killed is somehow a factor but I'm not seeing it. If people want to go decoy then fine but I look at it as delaying the inevitable, and most people here are in agreement on giving them either/or.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

That's how all of these scum PR's work except for witch (which we should never give), if our PR dies then their PR has no purpose.

Can anyone see any reason why they would give us an investigation role? I can't, and can't really imagine they would ever do so. Everyone in this game has played multiple games before, so the mafia isn't making noob mistakes. An all vanilla game would be purer, but that works towards us as much as it works towards them.

I glanced over this but you strike an interesting point. What's wrong with a stalemate and having it come down to innate ability between two factions? Tell me what benefit there is aside from hoping our PR comes through with something making it a bit easier.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Lots of Wifom in deciding this....hmmmmm.

Really want to say **** it but I think going into this with trends I have personally seen in DGames in theory threads and stuff might help more than throwing it out the window. I find more merit in thinking about it than not.

Needs to be considered with what they gave us in a way, with a best guess of what DGames in general thinks.

• People have outright said Comp cop is broken around here, near 100% sure that wasn't handed out.
• Seer is close to that but can backfire if handed out wrong or the role gets killed early. But Dgames I feel has this habit of thinking most "cop like" roles are busted inherently without a godfather or some other crap rather than just using good play to not get checked. Borderline #2 least likely but could have been handed out.
• Town bus drivers are pretty strong and something I personally would love for us to get. It adds a lot of power to town as a potential
• Double Doctor seems like that middle of the road role that mafia might hand out to get an idea of where to go and avoid giving town power with hopes they can play around it better than they can with other roles they hand out.
• I would say the one time redirecting BP would be the most likely of these, that role gets thrown around a lot with people not thinking it is very powerful. Borderline #1 pick for what I would expect scum to hand out.

With these considered I look at it like this,

• Super Tailor is only relevant 2/5 roles they might have handed out. The other three it is completely worthless. Giving mafia this would be a gamble on wifom if they gave us an investigative role but with how dgames works with investigatives I find it even more likely we didn't get one.
• I'm pretty close to being A-ok with giving them day detective. Really what it comes down to is if my thought process and how I think Dgames would handle handing out PRs would work. I'm not a fan of super vanilla games which this would great if they found our PR but considering the other roles it seems like the safest pick.
• Witch is powerful in this set-up, very powerful with how it can cut off information. It screws over any ability to make reads outside of trying to guess and doesn't make it worth it. IMO a role I outright refuse to give mafia.
• Poisoner is just like the Super Tailor where it is a 3/5 gamble guess if they gave us a protective. Given out Dgames works with this and how I find it to be more likely mafia in Dgames would hand out one of the other Three.
• Decoy works 4.5/5 roles as long as they do not shoot at a shielded BP. But given how strong this can be later with WIFOM I find it to be very effective in this set-up once one of the PRs claim.

I'm between Super Tailor and Detective. Leaning on trusting what I've read in theory threads and seen what the consensus around here is with PRs. I don't think they handed out an investigative role. This would be a gamble in the end, but it is one I think is worth taking.

If not a safe pick in this situation is detective as the runner up.

I'm actually more against Witch than Decoy tbh but regardless both are my bottom two of not handing out.

 

[ranmaru]

That is the most genuine post I've seen from Red Ryu. I disagree with it, but I'm impressed with the thought put into it. I can understand why though, since Ryu states he prefers PR game as opposed to Vanilla game, which I prefer more. I still would not prefer to choose on a gamble though. I prefer the safe option.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

On phone. Will elaborate more later, but I'm leaning more towards the poisoner than everything else atm. Don't agree with the cp strat, could be playing right into scum's hands, especially if scum is pushing it.

I don't see the problem in the specific case of the Super Tailor. The absolute worst case that could occur if we gave them the ST is that somebody claims either Seer or CCop. But in that case we'd already know they have ST so it completely nullifies all danger that comes with that role. We'd just ignore the investigator's NA results knowing that mafia has the ST and pretend that it's an all vanilla game which is absolutely okay for a WCS, to say the least. At best we have a power role that scum doesn't have an answer to.

I could say the same about you

No you couldn't.

You made three suggestions of which one is a complete no-brainer that shouldn't even be a point of discussion in the first place [not giving them Witch] and the other two are just plain bad [giving them a roleblocker but not the Tailor].

 

[~ Gheb ~]

No to Decoy, no to Day witch. So for you it seems you prefer Tailor > Poisoner > Detective. I want to point out that detective can also be useful regardless of role, thoughts on that and poisoner?

Detective works regardless of what PR they gave us but I wouldn't call it a very useful role. I think Zen is right on that one. All it does is giving them a 1 in 7 chance to find out about a role they already know to be in the game anyway. I still wouldn't wanna give it to the mafia because it can work out in their favor. In the event that numbers for town start to look shaky at some point it'd increase their odds to find our PR which can make a bad situation even worse for us. It's a slim chance but since we can avoid it I don't see the point in risking it.

Poisoner doesn't seem to have any real downsides for the mafia and allows them to bypass protective roles. That doesn't look like a good role to give away. I agree with Ryu there.

At the end of the day I don't really see any alternative to giving them the Super Tailor. Best case scenario is that we get a PR that is free to do his thing and make life harder for scum, worst case scenario is that we have an all Vanilla game which is still absolutely fine. ST can give us a free PR without giving scum anything. So the way I see it Super Tailor is by far the best role we can hand out, followed by Detective which I'd compromise on if all else fails but I'm not in favor of by any means. The other three options aren't really acceptable.

That is the most genuine post I've seen from Red Ryu. I disagree with it, but I'm impressed with the thought put into it. I can understand why though, since Ryu states he prefers PR game as opposed to Vanilla game, which I prefer more. I still would not prefer to choose on a gamble though. I prefer the safe option.

What exactly do you disagree with?

 

[Orboknown]

I don't see the problem in the specific case of the Super Tailor. The absolute worst case that could occur if we gave them the ST is that somebody claims either Seer or CCop. But in that case we'd already know they have ST so it completely nullifies all danger that comes with that role. We'd just ignore the investigator's NA results knowing that mafia has the ST and pretend that it's an all vanilla game which is absolutely okay for a WCS, to say the least. At best we have a power role that scum doesn't have an answer to.



No you couldn't.

You made three suggestions of which one is a complete no-brainer that shouldn't even be a point of discussion in the first place [not giving them Witch] and the other two are just plain bad [giving them a roleblocker but not the Tailor].

I'd still rather not possibly jank over our pr, although i guess i wasnt thinking about the likelyhood of protects over investigate. Worst case with decoy is them stonewalling our pr but that just makes it a vanilla game. I will not vote for witch, im not voting for poisoner. I guess that leaves me to a detective compromise that im okay with

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Alright, I'm at a computer.

We should try to make this a counter pick.

I doubt they would give comparison cop, seer, or double doctor. Bus driver is possible but there's the chance he'd get the mafia to kill themselves. Armored bodyguard seems the most likely to give town, it's what I'd vote for if I was mafia. I really doubt they'd give us an investigation role. Because of that, the tailor might actually be the best pick for us, as it'd be useless for them unless they gave us an investigation role.

What has me skeptical about this isn't necessarily the idea--most people are either going to vote for the most generally safe pick or the one they think doesn't lose to the single PR we have, so counterpicking on a whole does weigh into some people's expectations. I'm concerned about the conclusion--where do you get the idea that mafia is giving us informatives in a single PR game over protectives? Double Doctor is busted and Gheb lost to Armor Guard that managed to get to lategame in Bardull's(?) most recent game. I do doubt scum gives town seer for what it's worth, given that it's indirect information that can out Mafia without even exposing itself, but Comp Cop? That claims, gets shot the moment it does, and the townie in that situation can get lynched before the mafia does. If that happens on D3 or later, it could win the game for mafia.

All that said, I really just think they gave us Bus Driver because it's clearly the weakest role of the bunch with its only major use being redirecting the kill to someone else.

Poison doesn't delay the kill; it just changes the kill flavor from "killed" to "poisoned". It's more similar to what some people would call a Strongman, but I called it Poisoner to draw attention to that it also is immune to re-directing... "poison" seemed like a more appropriate flavor.

This is the one thing that has me doubting the poisoner simply due to the bus driver being the likeliest choice (but not the guaranteed one). While I'm alright with the idea of a vanilla game, I would prefer an alternative that allows our PR to have some merit. I just don't see one--the only Mafia PR that doesn't screw over the bus driver to some degree is the Tailor and while I think they gave us Bus Drivers, I can see potential scenarios where we got Comp Cop instead, making Tailor the worst possible choice to make. As a result, I think we pick the Poisoner as it's the safest one (no way Mafia gives us the protectives) and play the vanilla game if they gave us Bus Driver.

My order is Detective > Poisoner > Decoy > Tailor > Witch.

We shouldn't presume to know what mafia picked. The primary goal should be to allow mafia the least bit of control regardless of what pr they picked for us. The secondary goal should be to maximize the amount of use or control our pr has regardlesd of what it is.


Detective is the least influential in all cases. It has no control factor and it has the same effect regardless of what our pr is.

Poisoner has no control factor. It essentially negates 3 of our prs, leading to an all vanilla game in the event that one of those were selected.

Tailor has a huge control factor for 2 of our prs and completely useless for the other 3.

Decoy has the same negation element as poisoner but affective against all 5 prs.

Witch gives control to mafia regardless of what our pr is and is the most influential in all cases.

I should say that Detective also works in this regard. Mafia already knows the what role is in the game, so the only thing they'd be using this for is to determine who. Since they have no other abilities, it follows that this information would be for the purpose of getting rid of the pr -- making the game vanilla. The only difference is that a miss at least gives our pr a chance to use their ability.

While I agree with the logic, I don't know if I agree with the conclusion. While the Detective doesn't prevent our PRs from directly acting, it is the one tool that helps Mafia find them and remove all but the Armor Guard from the game the night after they find it. That's effectively the same as giving them control, just in a much less direct manner. By your logic it does effectively make the game vanilla--but so does the Poisoner. The latter does affect 3 roles but 1 definitely isn't in the game, 1 almost definitely isn't in the game, and the last has such a small chance of being useful that I'd be fine giving it to mafia. It may become useful if it somehow survives longer than the Poisoner anyway, especially in mid-lategame scenarios (arguably when the Bus Driver is strongest) and I'd rather play for that than allowing the Bus Driver to be useful early at the cost of giving Mafia a role that helps narrow down who has it and kill that player.

More posts coming up in a bit.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

That's how all of these scum PR's work except for witch (which we should never give), if our PR dies then their PR has no purpose.

Can anyone see any reason why they would give us an investigation role? I can't, and can't really imagine they would ever do so. Everyone in this game has played multiple games before, so the mafia isn't making noob mistakes. An all vanilla game would be purer, but that works towards us as much as it works towards them.

They didn't want to give us the protectives and are for some reason scared of the Bus Driver, particularly a late-game one. Comp Cop is not that scary, it has more potential of backfiring than the Bus Driver does and wasting D2 or D3 killing a townie and spending D3/D4 killing the scum could buy some serious time for the other scummer to position himself to win the game.

They'd give us the role because they knew we'd pick a role based on the idea that they didn't give us that one? I find that unlikely, especially since there's zero guarantee that their counter PR would pick their target correctly while our PR could crush the game, giving us a powerful PR because they expect it to manipulate us to give them a counter PR would be poor play, it's only a counter if they both pick the same target, otherwise we just have a powerful PR. It's throwing the ball into our court and relying on 1. us giving them the perfect PR is return and 2. their counter PR being perfect in his actions. Any slip and they would have messed up horribly. It's more likely they gave us the weakest PR they could

I think what he's saying is that you're trying to play Yomi level 2 and the mafia's playing Yomi level 0. In other words, instead of outplaying mafia, you're only outplaying yourself. It's like you're playing Rock/Paper/Scissors and you think your friend's gonna throw Rock so you wanna throw Paper but you realize your opponent may think of that so he'll throw Scissors and you should throw Rock but what if he counters that with Paper so you should throw Scissors but he may go Rock so **** it let's go Rock to counter the scissors to beat that only to lose because he's just throwing whatever comes to mind and threw Paper on a whim.

You're trying to be ahead of the mafia when you have no basis for what the mafia's even attempting to do yet.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

I agree. It is why I prefer decoy above all else. Negative to decoy is that a pr can possibly be blocked, but they'd only lose information. Poisoner would mean they'd be able to kill anyone, and that's worse than a loss of information in my eyes. Witch is a no no for me since we can't function without public flip. Tailor is a no for me since it's cp/wifom.

Think of it like this: No matter what, the Decoy will always be useful. The poisoner is only 3/5 useful.

I don't see the problem in the specific case of the Super Tailor. The absolute worst case that could occur if we gave them the ST is that somebody claims either Seer or CCop. But in that case we'd already know they have ST so it completely nullifies all danger that comes with that role. We'd just ignore the investigator's NA results knowing that mafia has the ST and pretend that it's an all vanilla game which is absolutely okay for a WCS, to say the least. At best we have a power role that scum doesn't have an answer to.

Yeh **** that. If mafia did give us an informative, I'd rather have the Poisoner and a semi-reliable result than the Tailor, a useless result, and the ****load of WIFOM that would come with it. That's also precluding the informative stirring up a ****storm off a guilty regardless of whether or not he can trust it.

• People have outright said Comp cop is broken around here, near 100% sure that wasn't handed out.

• Seer is close to that but can backfire if handed out wrong or the role gets killed early. But Dgames I feel has this habit of thinking most "cop like" roles are busted inherently without a godfather or some other crap rather than just using good play to not get checked. Borderline #2 least likely but could have been handed out.

• Town bus drivers are pretty strong and something I personally would love for us to get. It adds a lot of power to town as a potential

• Double Doctor seems like that middle of the road role that mafia might hand out to get an idea of where to go and avoid giving town power with hopes they can play around it better than they can with other roles they hand out.

• I would say the one time redirecting BP would be the most likely of these, that role gets thrown around a lot with people not thinking it is very powerful. Borderline #1 pick for what I would expect scum to hand out.

I'm not sure where you're drawing these conclusions. The two weakest roles in the game are the Bus Driver (which can only redirect the Decoy and the NK) and the Comp Cop (useful with time but a bad read on a result in LyLo wins the game for scum). Double Doc is broken and Armor Guard won Bardull's last game because it got to lategame with its BP in tact and Gheb couldn't handle it. Seer is significantly stronger than Comp Cop in this game simply because it bypasses the need for protection for Cop roles. Comp Cop has to expose himself to get his results out while the Seer's results come from a different person. That in and of itself is strong in a single PR game--the Seer can continue to get results out and clear players while the Comp Cop comes out and dies immediately for it.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

For posterity, here are where the preferences are lying right now:

Players:
1. Maven - Tailor, believing mafia did not select an informative and he wishes to give the mafia a useless role in return
2. Orbo - Decoy, safest option in his eyes.
3. Gheb - Tailor, agreeing with Maven's logic and unafraid of a potential game with an informative as the result could simply be discarded.
4. Laundry - Poisoner, as he finds it incredibly unlikely the protective PRs made it in and would prefer to play the vanilla game with the bus driver than fall into scum's hands and give them the tailor if they gave us comp cop/seer.
5. Soup - Poisoner, as it's the safest role in his eyes and doesn't mind the vanilla game.
6. Ryu - Detective or Tailor based on "latest DGames trends."
7. #HBC | Ryker - where u @ fuccboi
8. Xivii - Detective, as it gives the least control of the game to the mafia.
9. Ranmaru - Decoy, as it's the safest option and would prefer the lack of information from one night to an unblockable kill or unreliable information.

Make corrections if I'm wrong.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Off to work. I'll make a post at dinner time and I'll try to be around tonight. No promises, I may spend another night playing Overwatch.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Think of it like this: No matter what, the Decoy will always be useful. The poisoner is only 3/5 useful.

Yeh **** that. If mafia did give us an informative, I'd rather have the Poisoner and a semi-reliable result than the Tailor, a useless result, and the ****load of WIFOM that would come with it. That's also precluding the informative stirring up a ****storm off a guilty regardless of whether or not he can trust it.


I'm not sure where you're drawing these conclusions. The two weakest roles in the game are the Bus Driver (which can only redirect the Decoy and the NK) and the Comp Cop (useful with time but a bad read on a result in LyLo wins the game for scum). Double Doc is broken and Armor Guard won Bardull's last game because it got to lategame with its BP in tact and Gheb couldn't handle it. Seer is significantly stronger than Comp Cop in this game simply because it bypasses the need for protection for Cop roles. Comp Cop has to expose himself to get his results out while the Seer's results come from a different person. That in and of itself is strong in a single PR game--the Seer can continue to get results out and clear players while the Comp Cop comes out and dies immediately for it.

People underrate bus driver. It can be very strong if used correctly on the town side.

Comp Cop is insanely powerful. You are attributing this to the Frozenflame side of the argument vs the Ryker side. TL;DR, FF would day seer is stronger than CC in which Ryker disagrees because it gives more results.

The issue with Seer in this case is the fact someone else is getting the results. That could be given to mafia and they would lie about what they receive. If the seer dies and they get the result, they can lie about the results to help them win the game. Seer has a lot of issues with it, but Dgames in general thinks investigatives are borderline overpowered without an entire set-up dedicated to it.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

People horribly underrate BP around here, idk why you think Dgames and people who play mafia in general think it is a strong role. I think it can be strong but it needs to be used correctly, aka you play well or it lets you protect someone else.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

You're missing the important angle: this is a 1 PR game. That weighs heavily on my opinion of the cops this game as the seer can continue getting results while the comp cop puts his out and dies for it as soon as he does.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

You're missing the important angle: this is a 1 PR game. That weighs heavily on my opinion of the cops this game as the seer can continue getting results while the comp cop puts his out and dies for it as soon as he does.

Seer can mess up if the result goes to a player who dies or to mafia who can use it to lie.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

OK, Laundry, let's get this straight ...

You'd rather give mafia the ability to bypass a protective role entirely without any real downside to it over a role that's virtually useless to them no matter what they handed out to us? I don't know in which parallel universe that is supposed to be a good idea but that's certainly not a viable plan for this game. If you're keen on making this an all-vanilla game then either Super Tailor or Decoy are better choices.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Seer can mess up if the result goes to a player who dies or to mafia who can use it to lie.

If mafia lies about it then it's the same as a guilty. Town has no reason. Higher payoff, less risk involved.

OK, Laundry, let's get this straight ...

You'd rather give mafia the ability to bypass a protective role entirely without any real downside to it over a role that's virtually useless to them no matter what they handed out to us? I don't know in which parallel universe that is supposed to be a good idea but that's certainly not a viable plan for this game. If you're keen on making this an all-vanilla game then either Super Tailor or Decoy are better choices.

I wish I had time to explain why I disagree with you right igh now but I don't. If you think we got the role that ****ed you in the ass so recently or a doctor with double the success chance,you're mental.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

If mafia lies about it then it's the same as a guilty. Town has no reason. Higher payoff, less risk involved.


I wish I had time to explain why I disagree with you right igh now but I don't. If you think we got the role that ****ed you in the *** so recently or a doctor with double the success chance,you're mental.

Unless they force it into a lylo situation to snag a win or help them set-up a game winning plan.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

That can happen with comp cop too.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Regardless this is getting dumb. I'll reveal my idea tonight regardless of whether or not drew decides to play.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'd still rather not possibly jank over our pr, although i guess i wasnt thinking about the likelyhood of protects over investigate. Worst case with decoy is them stonewalling our pr but that just makes it a vanilla game. I will not vote for witch, im not voting for poisoner. I guess that leaves me to a detective compromise that im okay with

I never brought up likelyhood as a factor, that was Ryu. If somebody were to ask me about likelyhood I'd say that Double Doctor and Seer are very unlikley choices for mafia to make. They're just powerful roles regardless of the circumstances.

If you want to default this game to all-vanilla then Decoy is inferior to Super Tailor in every way. Both will turn the game to Vanilla-only in the worst case but Decoy works against all the potential PRs whereas ST only works against two of them. In the event that mafia gave us Doctor, Armor BP or Busdriver - at least the latter two aren't too unlikley - we gain a significant advantage through giving them ST whereas giving them decoy puts us at the risk of having it stonewalled permanently. In other words: ST has the same WSC [an all-Vanilla game] but a much better BSC [useful PR for town vs useless PR for scum].

That goes to ranmaru as well who seems to favor Decoy right now.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

[...] Gheb lost to Armor Guard that managed to get to lategame in Bardull's(?) most recent game

If you think we got the role that ****ed you in the *** so recently or a doctor with double the success chance,you're mental.

Except none of that ever happened.

I had to dig up the game you refer to and read some stuff to know what you're talking about ... what happened was that Sang was BP!BG in Undertale mafia but it never affected the game. She didn't ever prevent a kill from happening or clear anybody. You're making things up.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Nevermind, I found what you were talking about. I'll have to think about it.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

I was about to say, I definitely remember you and i talking about that role on Skype nd why you didn't like it.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Net is out. On my phone till it's back. Also I work 5:45am to 4:30pm Mon-Fri and go to bed fairly early. Complain about activity during those periods and I'll kill you.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

We should try to make this a counter pick.

I doubt they would give comparison cop, seer, or double doctor. Bus driver is possible but there's the chance he'd get the mafia to kill themselves. Armored bodyguard seems the most likely to give town, it's what I'd vote for if I was mafia. I really doubt they'd give us an investigation role. Because of that, the tailor might actually be the best pick for us, as it'd be useless for them unless they gave us an investigation role.

Way to say nothing in a paragraph.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

On phone. Will elaborate more later, but I'm leaning more towards the poisoner than everything else atm. Don't agree with the cp strat, could be playing right into scum's hands, especially if scum is pushing it.

Counter picking is dumb. Want poisoner or tailor. Really want tailor and to never have to take investigative fake claims seriously.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Zen, why is decoy over tailor on your list?

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

I should say that Detective also works in this regard. Mafia already knows the what role is in the game, so the only thing they'd be using this for is to determine who. Since they have no other abilities, it follows that this information would be for the purpose of getting rid of the pr -- making the game vanilla. The only difference is that a miss at least gives our pr a chance to use their ability.

That's actually a good point. Detective should probably be used in one hundred percent lf situations where Tailor would. You right.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

I find myself agreeing with your train of thought, Zen, but I have an interesting plan in mind. I just want #HBC | Ryker and #HBC | Red Ryu to post their thoughts on what we should do first before I go into it, as it may influence their votes otherwise.

This sounds stupid.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

If mafia lies about it then it's the same as a guilty. Town has no reason. Higher payoff, less risk involved.


I wish I had time to explain why I disagree with you right igh now but I don't. If you think we got the role that ****ed you in the *** so recently or a doctor with double the success chance,you're mental.

Shut up Alex. Gheb is right.

Detective -> Tailor -> Poisoner -> Not Gonna Happen

You sound sold out on bus driver. I think you're nuts. If I'm scum, I'm picking Seer or Comp Cop. Then idk if if take double doc or bus driver.

Vote Detective

You'll have to sell me on the profit that not taking the chance of being caught by detective makes a protective role stronger enough to merit nullifying our protectives.

Unwilling to switch to anything else at all, atm.

You're insane if you think Bus Driver is as weak as you're making it out to be, Alex.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

#HBC | Laundry impress me.

Make your idea not stupid. Tell me who's scum. I'm going to bed in 45 min.

 

[Orboknown]

I never brought up likelyhood as a factor, that was Ryu. If somebody were to ask me about likelyhood I'd say that Double Doctor and Seer are very unlikley choices for mafia to make. They're just powerful roles regardless of the circumstances.

If you want to default this game to all-vanilla then Decoy is inferior to Super Tailor in every way. Both will turn the game to Vanilla-only in the worst case but Decoy works against all the potential PRs whereas ST only works against two of them. In the event that mafia gave us Doctor, Armor BP or Busdriver - at least the latter two aren't too unlikley - we gain a significant advantage through giving them ST whereas giving them decoy puts us at the risk of having it stonewalled permanently. In other words: ST has the same WSC [an all-Vanilla game] but a much better BSC [useful PR for town vs useless PR for scum].

That goes to ranmaru as well who seems to favor Decoy right now.

tailor might affect less but what it does affect it gives us false positives over just not getting a result at all, and id rather have a true nuetral in not getting the result over having a false one.

 

[ranmaru]

I never brought up likelyhood as a factor, that was Ryu. If somebody were to ask me about likelyhood I'd say that Double Doctor and Seer are very unlikley choices for mafia to make. They're just powerful roles regardless of the circumstances.

If you want to default this game to all-vanilla then Decoy is inferior to Super Tailor in every way. Both will turn the game to Vanilla-only in the worst case but Decoy works against all the potential PRs whereas ST only works against two of them. In the event that mafia gave us Doctor, Armor BP or Busdriver - at least the latter two aren't too unlikley - we gain a significant advantage through giving them ST whereas giving them decoy puts us at the risk of having it stonewalled permanently. In other words: ST has the same WSC [an all-Vanilla game] but a much better BSC [useful PR for town vs useless PR for scum].

That goes to ranmaru as well who seems to favor Decoy right now.

I see what you are saying. I was against Tailor in the scenario that we'd have investigative, but with your proposal of us all ignoring any investigative's actions while giving ST would effectively give scum little option. It would essentially make it all vanilla like you say, and I'm fine with that. I'll switch my order. I am still against detective, as it gives scum the ability to find who is a pr/non pr and narrow down the list anyway. When it comes to options, I still feel Decoy is the safest, but Tailor is the most optimal if we all decide to ignore actions that it could influence. It's only in this case that we are able to do so, since it's public knowledge.

Tailor > Decoy.

 

[ranmaru]

Think of it like this: No matter what, the Decoy will always be useful. The poisoner is only 3/5 useful.

Ok. I also get that Tailor is also 2/5 useful. In this case, I'd prefer tailor over poisoner, since it's an influenced action we'll all ignore versus a strongman kill, while a kill is worse in my eyes.