PYP mafia! Game over!

[Kantrip]

When Maven is here to address the pressure on him, I am particularly interested to hear more about his post-deadline post.

Maven89 what was the purpose of that post? Were you aware you were posting after deadline? Were you aware you were posting after Seph already flipped?

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Maven has plenty of pressure and I'm hoping we'll see his response soon.

Moydow, Fandagox, Nabe, Kantrip, Soup - Who would you lynch today? If not Maven, who's your second choice?

I'm sure Moydow will have a lot to answer soon once she posts ( Moydow am I getting your gender correct? I'm sorry; things get confusing) too. I know for her she's getting used to how everyone here plays.

 

[Kantrip]

Re-reading right now and the Maven Seph interactions early game are all over the place.

At one point Shishoe says he doubts they are mafia bickering with each other to distance because that's not a common strategy to be worried about and Maven contests this:

Having mafia stage arguments amongst themselves to create distance in case one of them dies is really common

Would be pretty next level to argue that you and your scum mate might be faking arguments if it were actually true.

Still going through things though, I want to see the part where Maven's reads do a flip-flop because that might be telling.

 

[Kantrip]

I feel like you're stretching pretty far on this. I was open to change, but I felt like I wasn't getting any actual responses from Maven. And I didn't feel convinced to change my vote. I voted at 3:31 for Poisoner and Maven posted at 3:30 in between my vote. It was more like an unfortunate event that he posted before my vote was placed. But in any case his argument didn't convince me otherwise. I still feel that RB+RC are the better roles for mafia than a poisoner is just by mechanics. I don't think lynching me over not being convinced is worthwhile or even understandable especially when we haven't even had a PR flip. I feel like you're just trying to push a lynch. Especially with your recent posts of asking players just to vote with you.



See this is the kind of post I was looking for in the pregame. Better late than never I guess.



As far as Vult is concerned we’ve played a few games back in 2009-12 or so, so our meta on each other is close to null and void imo.

But from what I remember, Vult likes to play carefully in all roles. He doesn’t like to take risks as mafia nor does he like to over extend as town. So I don’t think I have anything stable on him. At least this is what I remember from 6 years ago and my memory is really foggy.

To give you some insight, the last game I played was with J was in 2013.
J may have changed, but he likes to push lynches on inactives and non prevalent players so town gets the least information out of a day as scum. But as for his town play, he’s never town so there’s no meta. And I’m half joking about that. But it’s the truth.

I try not to rely on meta though. Because it’s outdated for one, and two, people react in different situations.



WTF are you even talking about? Did you even read the thread? Jump at the throats of those not voting poisoner? Name one time I did this? Also quote the post. This is heavily misreading things if not straight up fabrication. Does no one else see how scummy this guy is?

I doubt Vult and Z25 were bussing based on this post. This was the first instance of Seph's OMGUS and it doesn't look like SvS behaviour.

Also they were the first two on the wagon and rode it out the full distance when at this point Seph going down was hardly a foregone conclusion.

The response to Maven, on the other hand, is strange. I think it's just bad from Seph's end though. He acts like Maven's post helped clear up the issues he had with Maven's Day 0 stances. If you go back and read the post Seph is quoting here you'll see that it really has no right making Seph feel better.

 

[Kantrip]

Vote: Moydow

What about this one

What made you want to swing this wagon when you did?

Did you change your mind on Koopa vs Seph being SvT at this point? Up until this post you were going back and forth with Koopa and all signs pointing to you wanting to lynch him, then suddenly you introduce a new potential lynch in the countdown to deadline?

And now Moydow is still your biggest scumread but you're going for Maven instead?

 

[Kantrip]

Alright, done rereading.

I am quite comfortable with Maven and Moydow being in the hot seat right now.
I'm keeping Nabe and soup in my sight, and have Shish and Fandango in my peripherals.
I'm comfortable enough with everyone else for the moment.

 

[giraffelasergun]

Day 2 Vote Count 1
Maven: Soup, Shish (2)
Moydow: Kantrip (1)

Not voting: most people

 

[Maven89]

I don’t think I’m going to be able to get to this, I wanted to spend time yesterday but work and friends got in the way.

The difference in my play day 0 and day 1 was entirely dictated by my availability. Day 0 was a weekend so I could spend time and push, day 1 was when I went back to work and could do little more than skim, resulting in me being much more passive. I was surprised Seph was scum, from what it looked like to me was people pushed Seph for being a **** (which isn’t scummy) and for flipping on Z25, when Z25 would probably be the easiest to mislynch. Though if he’s scum with Z25 that’d explain that, but I didn’t consider it.
Koopa is either lying or just mistaken because I never put Seph as a strong town read, I put him as a town lean.

I posted the end of day 1 before the flip was posted, same as Pokechu. I did that because I wasn’t around for the push and wanted to put myself down on one side so everyone knew where I stood. It was just to add information. If I was scum I obviously wouldnt put myself down as against the scum lynch after he was lynched

That’s probably the most I’ll be able to say to my defense unless I get time to go in depth later today before deadline

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

What made you want to swing this wagon when you did?

Did you change your mind on Koopa vs Seph being SvT at this point? Up until this post you were going back and forth with Koopa and all signs pointing to you wanting to lynch him, then suddenly you introduce a new potential lynch in the countdown to deadline?

And now Moydow is still your biggest scumread but you're going for Maven instead?

There was a multitude of reasons but I alluded to it earlier when I said that I realized Moydow was voting Koopa at the time. I was starting to feel less and less engaged in voting Koopa but kept on fake pressure as I re-read and eventually the gears in my head started to turn. Perhaps it wasn't the most provocative way, but until Koopa asked me to talk about Moy, I mentioned certain things such as Seph's behavior being inconsistent, however I didn't want to look like a fool doing the hardest 180 possible I still rolled with Koopa being worse while trying to push my own interests

Spoiler: Don't read this if you dislike ****ty self-meta

If I were scum I would've just pushed Koopa into the dirt and could've easily got away with it, not a lot of people were agreeing with him in the first place (myself included) and a main factor why I hopped off is cause I started to see the cracks through Seph's armor but felt like contrarian voting cause it's fun. I'm not gonna take credit for lynching Seph though cuz really I just decided that Koops was probably town and didn't have the type of backing from scummates pushing a mislynch (nor do I see him as someone to powerplay a ML like that regardless of circumstance).

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

And now Moydow is still your biggest scumread but you're going for Maven instead?

Yeah probably, Maven is gonna give more to read off of while Moydow will likely rest on her laurels if I'm reading what Pokechu and how she plays correctly

 

[Vult Redux]

Someone asked me earlier why I trust that Shish is town and it's because of these posts closeish to the deadline:

Calm down, you guys are tied and we still have plenty of time. Deadline is in 3 hours still

Please vote Seph it's clear from the moment his wagon started that he's full of ****.

When the vote's that close and there is a lot of interest in lynching Koopa anyway, I don't see mafia doing this. I could see Seph's scummate acting wishy-washy or disappearing entirely, like Mowdoy and Maven did. But aggressively pushing harder I just can't see.

If I were scum I would've just pushed Koopa into the dirt and could've easily got away with it, not a lot of people were agreeing with him in the first place (myself included) and a main factor why I hopped off is cause I started to see the cracks through Seph's armor but felt like contrarian voting cause it's fun.

Yeah, I do give you some points for this.

Vote: Moydow

 

[Deleted member]

Oh **** right I forgot about this game. Uhm, what were we doing again?

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Oh **** right I forgot about this game. Uhm, what were we doing again?

Pressuring the hell out of Moydow and Maven and deciding which one's the better lynch. Also making anyone else that wasn't on the Seph wagon post.

Also, if there's a Dayvig, unless they're uber confident they're going to live to tomorrow and can't make heads/tails between Moydow/Maven, they should shoot today. Day 3 is the last day they'd be able to shoot twice.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Maven89 I probably exaggerated, but, it's not that you did a flip-flop on Seph: It's that you did a flip-flop on four of us in about one go. Seph's flip doesn't look good on you at all; it either means you were manipulated pretty hard or you were scum with him. I haven't really been inclined with enough reasoning to think the former.

Also, I'm sure if you get the chance to before Friday, you'll see that Z25's case really had more to do with aggressively trying to lynch Z25. Even in his rebuttal against me (it seems you weren't there for that, so I'll excuse that) he still claimed that Z25 was a good lynch target "I see nothing good coming out of him but bad"). There's a very big difference between being aggressive/an ass, and then aggressively trying to lynch someone. I was aggressive (not an ass) to Z25 in Phantom Mafia on Day 2 as scum because I was trying to get him lynched under the pretense that he was a Third-Party from the Redirector/Roleblocker wine but there's other reasons I didn't get lynched for that on the spot. It was a passive push. Seph was aggressively (and being an ass) trying to actively lynch Z25. If I had been lynched, I assure you he'd make a case for "olol Z25 is anti-town let's lynch him"

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and the chance to look at it properly with a new lens.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

That said, let's look at Moydow, whom I accidentally called Maven in my post ISO's! They've had four posts so far, so, while it isn't as much as Maven, all of them kinda mean something I guess!

https://smashboards.com/search/140424/

#135 – Says "roleblocker is least worse" and then moves onto a neutral stance on Poisoner/Rolecop leaning towards giving them ROlecop
#326 – Thought Nabe was hasty but needed a closer look
#436 – reads list is here. (it was at this time i wish i encouraged people to do pretty color or put them in categories)
#455 – First part is about the Jailer or Not discussion which makes sense - Not wanting information buried is a good thing and, had we had the Jailer flip before Seph's, it was a good point. The rest of the responses here are worth everyone's time to read but honestly, to me, it's a bunch of information we can throw out after that last flip.

Imma be real here: The part that gets to me about him, unlike Maven where Maven's stances change on a few people, is Moydow thought he was still town after that mega anti-town post (#443 basically showcased that he wasn't going to contribute anything of value ever anyways. lol lowest hanging fruit). It's not them thinking me/Vult/Z25 could be scum - it's them thinking Seph could be both Scum and Town. The reads list is the best part of this:

Finally had a chance to go through the thread in more detail, so here's my thoughts and reads right now. Apologies if it seems a little rushed in some parts, I had to finish up in a hurry since I've got to head out soon, though I should be back before deadline to clear up anything if I have to (but that won't be until about 5-6 hours from now).

Also for people I haven't seen before and who aren't aware, I live in Europe, so when you lot are just getting active, I'm probably just about to go to sleep, or otherwise too tired to bother doing anything here. So if you're looking for me at any time after about 6pm EST, don't expect any sort of prompt response.

--------------------

1. Shishœ - mafia Shish doesn't shishpost as much, so that's a good start. Since it seems like the main point of contention here, his vote on Sephiroth is... eh. I can see where he's coming from, but I don't really like that it was directly prompted by Vult instead of him doing so of his own accord. Could be either or, but seems more town right now.

2. Vult Redux - I don't really like how he was going around pinging people and telling them "hey, look at my argument against Sephiroth, isn't it great? Now go vote for him." I feel like if your argument is strong enough, people will pay attention to it without you needing to direct them to it. For what it's worth I think his reasoning isn't that bad, but not perfect, and I don't like how he went about pushing it. Could go either way here.

3. Nabe - Looking at what other people were getting out of his posts, it seems like he was just trying to get reactions out of people, which is fine. Though I personally don't like how oblique he's being about it, I'd rather if he just spoke his mind. I don't know if this is typical of him as either mafia or town since I think I've only actually played two games with him - one being Game of Thrones which was heavily non-standard, and the other where he was mafia and started the game pretending that he could only speak in images. Finding it hard to get anything meaningful out of his posts by myself so he's largely neutral for me currently, with a slight town edge. Don't think he's the one to lynch at this stage, at least.

4. Maven - I agree with him that a jailer is quite likely and poisoner would have been a bad choice if that is the case, and I'm fine with his push on Nabe and subsequent reconsideration thereof. Not seeing anything too bad here.

5. Pokechu - That he jumped to Nabe's defence like he did suggests he's town, this is what he's done in past games as town (like defending me in Mayo Clinic). I don't necessarily agree with him, but I'm fine with him right now. but we should lynch him anyway because it's in the rules

6. ThirdKoopa - I have to be honest, I kind of struggle to keep up with this guy. He churns out words at a rate of knots, is telling us he's okay with being lynched/shot, and half of each post is just full of jargon I don't fully understand. Like, what the hell is an ISO? I'm going to assume, given the context, that he's not talking about a disc image file or the International Organisation for Standardisation. Though I will say that it comes off as unnervingly similar to his play from the last game, where he was mafia and intentionally producing stuff like this to make it seem like he was contributing meaningfully ("spewing wine", as he might put it), but his end goal was more or less to make us throw out whatever he was saying. Though I've only played that one game with him, so I don't know if he's just always like this. Leaning more mafia on him at the moment. also he keeps spelling my name wrong he sucks we should definitely lynch him

7. Moydow - ró-álainn, nach bhfuil sí?

8. Fire Emblemier - just saw the post about him looking for a replacement as I was finishing up here, so I guess I can't say much here. Didn't have much to say, anyway.

9. Fandangox - I think his pushing against Nabe is fine and I agree with his reasoning for doing so, I also don't like Nabe not just saying what he's hinting at so I'm fine with anyone trying to get more meaning out of him. Leaning town.

10. Z25 - did not do himself any favours with his vote for flip hider and subsequent explanation that he thought it allowed the mafia to make a fake role PM, but it's true that he might have just misunderstood it and changed his mind once it was pointed out. But claiming vanilla this early isn't a smart move either. Not sure if it is mafia fake-claiming under pressure, or an ill-advised town move, though. It's not dissimilar to how he played last game, so he's at least got that going for him. 50/50, won't oppose lynching him.

11. J - literally who?

12. Sephiroths Masamune - since his push for poisoner seems to be where a lot of suspicion towards him is coming from, I didn't think his point about rolecop+roleblocker being a really strong combo for the mafia was that unreasonable, really. The problem is more that, during the role voting, he didn't really engage enough with people arguing that poisoner would be worse if we happened to get a jailer. So it depends. If we do have a jailer, then he has a lot to answer for, and if we don't, then he's a little more justified in pushing for poisoner. Looking at his more recent posts, I'm a little more okay with him, but still could go either way.

13. Kantrip - seems okay from what I've seen of him, his reasoning for picking the roles he did is fair, and I agree with him that I'd rather not lynch an inactive right now when we have other information on the table. Mixed, but leaning town here.

-------------------

Right now, for the lynch, I suppose it's between Thirdkoopa, Z25, Vult, and Sephiroth, for me. Of those Thirdkoopa gives me the least comfortable gut feeling, based on what I saw of him last game, so to get a vote out there:

Vote: Thirdkoopa

12. Sephiroths Masamune - since his push for poisoner seems to be where a lot of suspicion towards him is coming from, I didn't think his point about rolecop+roleblocker being a really strong combo for the mafia was that unreasonable, really. The problem is more that, during the role voting, he didn't really engage enough with people arguing that poisoner would be worse if we happened to get a jailer. So it depends. If we do have a jailer, then he has a lot to answer for, and if we don't, then he's a little more justified in pushing for poisoner. Looking at his more recent posts, I'm a little more okay with him, but still could go either way.

Right now, for the lynch, I suppose it's between Thirdkoopa, Z25, Vult, and Sephiroth, for me. Of those Thirdkoopa gives me the least comfortable gut feeling, based on what I saw of him last game, so to get a vote out there:

 

[Thirdkoopa]

ignore the reads list. i didn't mean to quote his whole readslist - i just wanted to highlight the seph parts.

also i know i'm a bit pedantic at times but do consider this: after J's death i am going through the mental anguish of knowing two of you had to lie to me in our night communication chats </3 but <3 all the non-scum

(it actually is tearing me up a bit more than ya'll think but I'll be okay)

 

[Vult Redux]

^ I think by "I suppose it's between...." he could have been referring to just town consensus lynch options.

regardless, his read on Seph "I'm a little more okay with him, but could go either way" is almost comical. It's a really really bad look for him

 

[Moydow]

I want to see if Maven has more to say in response to the accusations being thrown at him right now. I do think that his "put me down for lynching Thirdkoopa" post was more likely a case of unfortunate timing, but right now I'm fine with the pressure being put on him, considering his interactions with Seph. Going to look again at that more closely in a bit.

Ok, sure. I was kinda holding this one and I dunno if I'll get the swing I want but with Moydow's play I think it can be summarized as shadowplay. When I read Moydow's posts, I don't feel like he makes them under the interest of generating discussion rather they're made because it would make him look more townie. He shadows a lot of behavior that is similar to town but lacks the intent. It's like earlier when everyone was making read-lists Moydow comes in and makes a readslist merely a couple of posts after because perhaps he believes that's what a townie does, but I don't think he has been trying to make conclusions to even have a post like that honestly. When it comes to people questioning him, he's cordial, but it all feels insincere. It's like when he is engaged about his Nabe read he has a prepared speech about why he changed his mind instead of a proper conversation that develops over time.

I would say I'm not really doing much differently to my previous games, personally, though you weren't involved in any of those so I can't blame you for not knowing how I play.

It's much like what Chu mentioned, this is more or less just how I always play, particularly when I'm busy with offline stuff (which caused me to miss the last few hours of day 1, and I also had two exams to prepare for today). I'm not an aggressive person (unless I know something is very wrong), and rarely push too hard against anyone in particular, but I'll still point out anything I find that seems off, or anything that other people aren't discussing which I feel is important. Since I was particularly busy for most of day 1, I decided to just put what was on my mind into that one big post, since I didn't have time to be here actively commenting on what was going on as it was happening.

I dunno where you got the idea that I haven't been doing enough to be able to have a list of reads, or that I'm being insincere, though. Again, me trying to be cordial is just the kind of person I am.

If you want to look at something to back this up, here's the Mayo Clinic mafia which Chu mentioned.

As for when I posted my read list, I had been asked about that the night before by Fandango, so it wasn't unprompted. Probably should have quoted Fandango's post to make that clearer, but oh well.

Moydow, Fandagox, Nabe, Kantrip, Soup - Who would you lynch today? If not Maven, who's your second choice?

If not Maven, I would suggest that we should look again at the poisoner votes, since we know now that we had a jailer, and Seph's reasons for pushing poisoner are clear now. Looking again, the other poisoner people were yourself, Z25, and Fire Emblemier. FE isn't here any more to expand on his poisoner vote, but at the time he put it down to not knowing if we had a jailer, and the fact that it'd give the mafia fewer night actions and keep the rolecop out of their hands. It does make me wonder if there was any more to it, though.

am I getting your gender correct? I'm sorry; things get confusing

I'm more or less indifferent in terms of genders and pronouns and whatever. So it doesn't really matter to me what you decide to refer to me as.

 

[Moydow]

Imma be real here: The part that gets to me about him, unlike Maven where Maven's stances change on a few people, is Moydow thought he was still town after that mega anti-town post (#443 basically showcased that he wasn't going to contribute anything of value ever anyways. lol lowest hanging fruit). It's not them thinking me/Vult/Z25 could be scum - it's them thinking Seph could be both Scum and Town. The reads list is the best part of this:

regardless, his read on Seph "I'm a little more okay with him, but could go either way" is almost comical. It's a really really bad look for him

I mean, yeah, it doesn't look great right now, but I'd say it only looks especially bad in hindsight, now that we've seen Seph flip. Maybe if I didn't have to leave in a hurry that evening and had had more time to give Seph's posts a closer look, I might have reconsidered, but again that too is easy to say in hindsight. I think that when I made my read list, and considering the information available at that time, it was not completely unreasonable for me to interpret the situation as I did. Just that this time, I came down on the wrong side of the fence. It happens, though.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Differing playstyles can be a factor of discerning alignment. Impression I had prior to you responding to me is eerily similar to the one I have now, where does your conviction lie? I just see a lot of 'could go either way' in your post and not a direct answer, and while it's understandable that there isn't always a direct answer I often find even the most milquetoast players will have something they're passionate about. I just don't feel like you came in here cause you wanted to scumhunt, rather it was just obligation.

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

Am I wrong to be suspicious of Z25 in a post-Seph world? Probably.

Maven felt like a great play yesterDay, but toDay there is... something? In the air that suggests that it's not the right track. I mean, I wanted to hear most about why his read on me flipped, which he didn't cover, and he said he wasn't likely to post again, so I'd vote there... but I'm going to take a second to look into not doing that.

 

[Deleted member]

Pressuring the hell out of Moydow and Maven and deciding which one's the better lynch. Also making anyone else that wasn't on the Seph wagon post.

Also, if there's a Dayvig, unless they're uber confident they're going to live to tomorrow and can't make heads/tails between Moydow/Maven, they should shoot today. Day 3 is the last day they'd be able to shoot twice.

I'm still not confident on Moydow myself tbh, but then again, I never am. Their play always seems the same to me, regardless of alignment, and I really can't differentiate.
If we do have a Dayvig, I'd really like them to shoot toDay actually. If we're lynching between Moydow and Maven, might as well shoot one of them.

 

[giraffelasergun]

In case there's some confusion, deadline is tomorrow at 6 PM, not today.

 

[Maven89]

In case there's some confusion, deadline is tomorrow at 6 PM, not today.

Oh ****

Prepare yourselves mother****ers

 

[Maven89]

In like 6 hours because that’s when I’ll be home

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Oh ****

Prepare yourselves mother****ers

I look forward to it from both you and Moydow. Just don't shovel yourself like Seph did.

Am I wrong to be suspicious of Z25 in a post-Seph world? Probably.

Maven felt like a great play yesterDay, but toDay there is... something? In the air that suggests that it's not the right track. I mean, I wanted to hear most about why his read on me flipped, which he didn't cover, and he said he wasn't likely to post again, so I'd vote there... but I'm going to take a second to look into not doing that.

If Maven's not the right play then who is? Obviously I'm not expecting an answer right now.

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

Reading early game, I'm reminded of the fact that scum have RB and RC, meaning my interactions last Night were absolutely useless.

 

[Z25]

Am I wrong to be suspicious of Z25 in a post-Seph world? Probably.

Maven felt like a great play yesterDay, but toDay there is... something? In the air that suggests that it's not the right track. I mean, I wanted to hear most about why his read on me flipped, which he didn't cover, and he said he wasn't likely to post again, so I'd vote there... but I'm going to take a second to look into not doing that.

I mean I would say yes obviously but that would also be bias I suppose. I mean I was the first to put seph on the scum list before vult came in. I agree that I’m not sure who should be lynch.

Both subjects on the table have enough to suspect something but I’m having a harder time reading who is definitely scum.

Seph was easy and I knew claimingng my role early would instantly shut him down based on his play style. But today while I still think maven could be scum it’s hard to get a really good reading. So I’m waiting till we hear more to make a decision.

I like koops idea for a day vig if we have one. But that’s also pretty risky imo. Because worst case scenario we lose two townies, best case we get two scum.

Although I think if anything the likeliest outcome is one scum and one townie. Which kind of helps us while limiting us. It would also limit the mafia so I can see why the idea is being suggested.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

I'll get role wine out of the way for why I'm suggesting Day Vig assuming we have it.

Let's discuss Worst Case Scenario for each
Day Vig shoots Day 2+3
11 (9 town 2 scum)
Day 2 mislynch and misfire
Night 2 NK (8)
day 3 Mislynch and Misfire
Night 3 NK (5)
Day 4 LyLo 2 scum + 3 town

Day Vig shoots Day 3+4
11 (9 town 2 scum)
Day 2 mislynch
Night 2 NK (9)
Day 3 mislynch and misfire
Night 4 NK (6)
Day 4 Misfire (without a lynch just yet)
Day 4 LyLo (2 scum + 3 town)

Day Vig doesn't shoot/we don't have day vig
11 (9 town 2 scum)
Day 2 mislynch
Night 2 NK (9)
Day 3 mislynch
Night 3 NK (7)
Day 4 mislynch
Night 4 NK (5 next day phase)
Day 5 LyLo - 2 scum + 3 town

Unless we have a Driver (which we're not discussing) there's no way the Mafia is going to shoot itself with it's own night kill. Yes, we'd lose a lynch, which has the possibility of hitting scum, but in return we give scum one less NK.

Upon writing this, the true worst case scenario for us is if the vig shoots and then the Mafia kills the vig at night - we aren't able to rob the Mafia of a NK (since we'd be at 6, therefor, the best play unfortunately would be to No Lynch and move down to full Lylo) and we've only robbed ourselves of a lynch.

So... I changed my mind a bit with all this math. Don't shoot unless you're feeling really confident. And if you are, preferably one of those two, and preferably sooner than later since we won't get a deadline extension for the shot.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

being honest though it's role wine because this is only discussing an if one exists, but hey, yay for math.

Now for something that isn't role wine: we currently have 3 lynches to work with before Lylo.

 

[Kantrip]

Reading early game, I'm reminded of the fact that scum have RB and RC, meaning my interactions last Night were absolutely useless.

Who is scum?

Maybe I'm just jealous because you didn't want to talk to me at Night and your conversations sound so secret and important, but I feel like you aren't doing anything proactive in thread anymore.

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

Actually, I've spent hours now on and off writing up a thing, so, relax.

 

[Kantrip]

Sorry friendo, these short phases just make me itch.

Pulling up a seat.

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

I've gone through specifically the Poisoner votes and pro-Poisoner people, as well as people on the fence, and didn't really touch on people who were against Poisoner. In the latter group, Fanny had a solid back-and-forth with Seph about Poisoner and was against Poisoner throughout Day 0, and was consistently on RB+RC. Maven decided after a few hours that Poisoner was a no, then was hard-opposed, but didn't engage with Seph in Poisoner talk when prompted, and was very keen and vocal that I vote in time when my vote could have gotten Poisoner tied with Role Cop. Just thinking out loud here.

Spoiler

As a reminder, the options are:
1 shot Flip Hider
Roleblocker
Poisoner
Role Cop
Disguised Mafia

Honestly the poisoner might be a good option as the only defensive night action we have available is the Jailer, but we're not guarenteed to have that. Either way, we don't have much protection anyway.

Fire gets the first post with positive movement on Poisoner, which is meaningless, but only mentions Poisoner in the post, which is a little interesting. Anyway, he calls Poisoner useless.

giraffelasergun
Can we give the Mafia a Dayvig?

I agree with Maven on this, Hider/Janitor is awful to deal with it and one of the only roles there that will always be able to be used against us(while something like Poisoner is almost useless when the only possible protective role is Jailkeeper)

Another read of Poisoner as useless.

So Town gets three PR's and Mafia gets two, correct?



Alright... So, I think you guys covered the possibility of Flip Hider well. One thing to consider here is that they're getting two roles. Flip Hider, on it's own, I don't feel is bad, but Flip Hider with Rolecop? I'm speculative of anyone who says that.

Poisoner - You pointed that out, and, Jailer is going to block people from using their roles. Basically we're playing the "Pray they didn't pick a Jailer" game.
Roleblocker - It's fairly standard.
Role Cop - nononononono. Well, okay, it's not as bad as the one below, but with some combo's, it could be devastating.
Disguised Mafia - Highly against this one the most, by far, no question. It renders two roles potentially useless and since the Mafia will know what they're up against, it'll create a ton of wine.

Role Cop is a hard no over only Disguiser, Poisoner discussed as a coin-flip possibility.

Well those are rough.


So I guess:

Vote: Poisoner

Vote: 1 shot flip hider


Poisoner is easy to deal with, but 1 shot flip isn't fun, but is the lesser of the remaining skills imo.

"Easy to deal with." Maven prompts a follow-up on this from Z25, which didn't really clear up what Z25 meant here. Focus afterwards went towards Z25's Hider pick. I didn't quote it here, but I wonder who all was on him about Hiders, and I'm going to check after this post.

I think most likely we have the Day Vig because chaos is fun for town and scum alike.
The tracker, it's pretty standard, and produces WIFOM for scum.
I would say 50/50 on Jailer and Busdriver
I doubt we will have role cop, but would be happy if we do. If we do have a role cop somehow I doubt we will have a tracker. If we do have a role cop we likely have a busdriver.

Fire thinks it's Day Vig, Tracker, and a coin-flip between Driver and Jailer (no explanation). I don't know how scum would use tracker to produce WIFOM, aside from by leaving Tracker out and claiming a track on someone, or hoping that the tracker hits them so they can claim a role?

...Unvote: One Shot Flip Hider since Mafia can jan their own lynch.

Alright, Poisoner, Roleblocker, and Rolecop. Those are the least worst.

Also I'm glad we're all in agreement that Disguiser is awful.

Koops lumps Role Cop in the "least worst" category with Poisoner and Roleblocker. And while that's technically true from his POV, since he's discarded Hider and Disguiser at this point, I think it's odd to lump the remaining three as "least worst" when his previous post called Role Cop 'nononononono' and suggested that it had 'devastating combos.' (Which ones?)

giraffelasergun Does the Busdriver count as a layer of protection that the Poisoner can use?

If so, my vote will probably go to RBer and Rolecop. Still willing to hear the rest of the town out.

Isn't RB + RC likely to be one of the 'devastating combos'? It's not clear how RC got away from being a hard 'no' so quickly. It's important to note, on a micro level, Maven was currently questioning the 'ease' of dealing with Poisoner, so it was unclear at this time if town thought that poisoner was worth doing.

P much. Even if Dayvig goes incredibly wrong, I've counted WCS. We still would have two mislynches to work with before we get to that point.

Now that I know Flip Hider can work on day, we're going with Roleblocker at least no matter what, so, I'm gonna Vote Roleblocker. Now I just need mod confirmation on the Poisoner and that'll make the choice between Poisoner and Rolecop a bit easier for us.

Anyone who comes in: What are you thinking of Poisoner vs Rolecop?

Only quoting this because it's an example of Koops being on the fence, and that's important in a bit.

Poisoner - 1 (Z25)
1 Shot Flip Hider - 1 (Z25)
Roleblocker - 1 (Thirdkoopa)
Rolecop - 0
Disguiser - 0

We need more votes and I hope by the end of the night we get them since deadline is tomorrow.


Reasonable enough. I'm leaning towards Rolecop but I'd like to hear mod confirmation about the Bus Driver first.

Here, Koops says that he's leaning towards Role Cop regardless of GLG's response about the bus driver, which is weird because, again, RC was a six-no pony less than two hours prior, and the logic hadn't changed in that time, but the air in the thread had clarified in a positive direction for Role Cop. Again, just thinking out loud.

Vote: roleblocker

If poisoner doesn't work with bus driver, I think we should really discuss if they gave us jailer or not.

Maven is willing to discuss the inclusion of jailer. I don't think that this necessarily suggests that he wants Poisoner, he may just want to hear more from potential scumspects who do want Poisoner.

On the opposition hand, if the Poisoner works with Bus Driver, I don't think there's any better option for us on the table than Rolecop

Rolecop sucks, but, I'm sure we can deal with it if we play our cards right.

Koops' direct response to Maven. While this is all true in the moment, it doesn't help to make sense of 'leaning towards Rolecop' in Koops' previous post. Given what he first said about RC being a no, RC should only be a lean if and when GLG confirms that Poisoner hits through Bus Driver.

Disguised and Hider are the only two I DEFINITELY am goimg to say no to. The former doesn't just completely invalidate two potential Town roles, but it can give us straught up misinformation and lead to a mislynch. And even then, it's going to be a lot of wine that any positive Tracker results are basically useless.
The latter just straight up takes away information from us, there's no benfit to choosing it and it's the only role that's guaranteed to be effective.

So, between Role Cop, Roleblocker and Poisoner...
Role Cop is probably the "weakest". Sure, it can sniff out PRs but it can't directly mess with them.
Roleblocker isn't as strong without Role Cop but the combo of Role Cop+Blocker could lead to Mafia just silently shutting down a power role. Still, if used correctly, it can shut down any of the power roles so it's more of a Hard to Master type of role.
Poisoner is like Disguiser in that it directly counters a power role, but it's just one role and it doesn't completely negate it(Jailkeeper can still block the other Mafia PR). And even then, at least two PRs are guaranteed to not be affected by it.

So I'll go with

Vote: Rolecop

Vote: Poisoner

These two roles don't really synergize with each other and are the least disruptive overall, regardless of our own Power Roles.

also this game is called pick your poison so that means we should pick poisoner, right?

Shish votes RC and Poisoner, saying that they don't synergize (true) while RB and RC would (true).

Okay, this makes it a bit harder to choose and we need to have a legitimate discussion. Are we going to pick Poisoner and pray they didn't pick Jailer, or, are we going to pick Rolecop and pray they don't find out PR's too quickly?

@Shishœ Why Rolecop + Poisoner over Roleblocker + Poisoner?

Having heard from GLG that Poisoner doesn't affect RC, Koops says 'this makes it a bit harder to choose.' Why? Koops said before that he was leaning RC, and before that he said RC was a hard no, so if either one of those is real, it should make the choice a straightforward one from his POV. And Koops doesn't provide an immediate opinion on the question here -- he asks it as an open question, and then asks Shish why he wants Role Cop over Roleblocker.

I don't think Role Cop is that strong compared to Roleblock as its interference is indirect, meanwhile Roleblock has the potential to ruin any and all Power Roles.
But I'm not strong on either one either way, as long as Hider and Disguiser are out, and that seems to be the consensus so far.

Shish weighs RB versus RC. Poisoner is assumed.

Anyone that votes or keep their votes on Hider or Disguiser are on my hit list.

Alright, the main topic of discussion is do we entertain Poisoner. The second topic is, what do we entertain with it, if we think Poisoner is worth the risk. I think we just need to have a discussion on if we're going yes or no with Poisoner...

Role Cop means a more silent but deadly approach and giving the Mafia more information as the informed Minority. Roleblock means silently stopping PR's, but only if those PR's claim - That is, assuming we decide that Poisoner is worth entertaining.

I'm honestly at a loss if we keep Poisoner on the table as an option. I need the night to think it over.

If we end up deciding that the jailer stuff isn't worth entertaining, what would you pick to go with Poisoner?

Koops wants to discuss Poisoner, as in, over RC. Not RC over Poisoner, when RC was a no. I'm probably nitpicking.

#HBC | Nabe
It counters just one role that might not even be in.
I don't see Role Cop with Roleblocker as that weak as the former is what maked the latter so powerful.

But I guess I can see where you guys are coming from.

Unvote: Poisoner
Vote: Roleblocker

Won't be here for most of tomorrow so don't expect more from me.
i still think we should give them a dayvig tho

Shish expresses that Poisoner is a good pick that only counters one role, and he says that RB+RC is a bad combination, but he changes Poisoner to RB anyway, which leaves his votes as RB+RC. He may have meant to tag someone other than me here, but I don't know who he meant.

Well by easier I mean it compared to the other ones.

Mafia already knows the town roles so with the right sleuthing it be easy for them to find the right one to roleblock.

I also do not want the mafia to be able to disguise themselves. It will get as bad as nabes claims last game and the mafia will fool too many townsfolk at the right time with it.

And I sure as hell don’t want them getting a role cop. That’s arguably the worst possibility as mafia being able to learn a persons kit while killing someone else would literally sweep the town up like a tornado.

Responding to Maven, Z25 says that poisoner is easy to deal with "compared to the other ones", going on to say that RC and Disguiser can cause more problems.

Hey Guys, sorry I'm late to the party. I've been working the past 2 days nonstop as 3 peeps just quit and I had to cover for them.

Disclaimer: I haven't read the thread yet, but my initial thoughts are these.

[image]
NO: on 1 Shot flip and Disguised Mafia. Reasoning being that I severely dislike less information. As town you don't have a lot to go on as it is and the inability to know what happened is terrible.

Role Blocker potentially hinders town for a night and effectively a better role cop late game unless they picked the day vig. But this is the weaker No of the 3. I would swap this with Role Cop if we had to compromise.

[image]
YES: Poisoner it's def the weakest of the PR's. Role Cop. It's not that good imo. And if there's a tracker in the game it's another target to hit in the mafia. It also doesn't do much late game with no hits and the early game it's hard to find any targets anyways.

I've read the thread now and my views haven't changed. Tho Maven can persuade me on the poisoner. I kinda like where he's going, but I would rather not give mafia 3 night actions with Role Cop, Role Block, and NK. and I'm a hard NO on flip hider and disguised.

Importantly, Seph's flip and the Jailer flip show that mafia was trying to get Poisoner through if possible. Seph also says RC over RB, and expresses the universally-liked point that Hider and Disguiser are pro-scum options, which strongly suggests a lack of info roles picked by scum.

Vote: Roleblocker

Seems like the least worst by far.

As for the others, disguise and janitor are horrible and we should avoid them like the plague. Disguise in particular basically invalidates two of our potential roles, and anything that creates confusion or withholds information just gives the mafia a massive boost, which is the last thing we need.

So between rolecop and poisoner, I could go either way. Rolecop and roleblocker in tandem could be really dangerous, the mafia could just track down the PRs and shut them down while picking off other townies along the way. While poisoner just invalidates the jailer. I'm leaning towards rolecop at the moment because giving the mafia a hard counter to any role doesn't sound like a good idea, but I think they're both equally dodgy.

Moydow says she could go either way on Poisoner or RC. She states the same point as Seph and a few others, that RB+RC is scary for scum to have as a combination. She then says that she's leaning RC, but "they're both equally dodgy", which coupled with the previous sentence talking about RB+RC is a lot of talk about RC being bad over Poisoner.

You guys do realize that this gives Mafia a really good combo of Rolecop>Roleblock. This is super strong. They wouldn't even have to kill the PR's because they could just RB them until they had no use for them.

Seph trashes RB + RC, presumably wanting RC + Poisoner since a Jailer exists.

I slept on this, but, thought: If we go with Poisoner, I'm thinking Roleblocker. That way, Scum have less information.


Actually, in PyP, you can scumhunt early but... I'm not really focused on that right now. I'm focused on picking apart roles since this is the ONLY chance we'll get to do so. Once we get to Day 1 we can start the real scumhunting.

I can see what he's trying to do here, but, I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt. I think he's onto something. That said, I'm not gonna let him sit on the fence. Especially since we need to pick our roles and we've got about 6 hours.

(Thank god there's no post restrictions this time around)


I'm not liking it either, but, it's his first PyP (probably?). What I said applies up above; I'm looking at these roles right now.

To the people asking why they feel Rolecop is weak, I'm curious to more.

Koops says, if Poisoner, then RB, as RC gives scum information. Information isn't actually relevant to the Poisoner, since the Poison is meant to hit through the Jail, not to hit the Jailer itself. If Poisoner is a sure thing, then for scum, RB is better than RC. Seph actually voices this point as well. Koops says he's curious to hear more about Role Cop being weak. Again, RC was a hard no for him to begin with. At this point, after sleeping on it, Koops still doesn't have a definite idea.

I think you're onto finding a very specific set of roles, but, with 4 hours left on the clock, I'm curious to see where your vote lands up for me.

Actually, let's cut the middle man. Do you think Role Cop/Roleblocker is the optimal path? If not, which set?

Koops asking me if I think RC+RB is the optimal path.

Poisoner: Z25 (1)
Flip Hider:
Disguiser:
Role Blocker: Thirdkoopa, Fire Emblemier, Maven, Pokechu, Fandangox, Shishœ, Moydoy, Kantrip, Z25 (9)
Role Cop: Pokechu, Maven, Shishœ, Fandangox , Kantrip (5)

Alright, so, unless we have a MASS flurry of votes, Role Blocker is probably staying. We need to keep this on track for Role Cop vs Poisoner

@Sephiroths Masamune Would you prefer changing Role Cop to Poisoner?

Koops states that RB is settled, and directly asks Seph to clarify if he wants Poisoner over RC, because Seph has been saying Poisoner + RC.

Well I'm not voting for either, and I stated how much I especially hated Role cop for mafia, so....

Z25 makes clear that he hates RC as an option.

I think you are overestimating how strong the combination is. A roleblocked town is still a town player that can scumhunt during the dayphase.

If poisoner helps them edge out a nightkill on someone they really want dead that is one less actual asset for town.

Like I said before, unless there is something I am misinterpreting the combination would take at least 2 night actions to find someone and roleblock them, and it also depends on the person they want to roleblock having the best judgement on how to use that role anyway.

Fand countering the idea that RB+RC is too strong.

Yeah I feel like Poisoner isn't doing that much. As far as I see it, it just means mafia can NK which is to be expected in a mafia game. Where both Role Cop and Role Block gives mafia too many Night actions. The combo potential of both roles outweighs the possibility of stopping a NK imo.

Seph reiterates how safe Poisoner is.

I've put some thought into this and I'm going to put my second vote where my mouth is.

Vote: Poisoner

If someone wants to convince me on Role Cop, I'll change my vote (though not like it'll matter much. Here's how it'll go down over the next four hours, either:

A) We keep the votes where they're at and scum gets RBer+Role Cop
B) We move Role Cop to Poisoner and deal with RBer + Poisoner
C) We (miraculously) move RBer and deal with Role Cop + Poisoner

C isn't happening unless we're all super swayed. I'd rather us be assured on locking in A or B so we don't have any last minute switches. I will be suspicious of any and all last minute switches to say the least.

Koops finally places his second vote (Poisoner) saying he'll put his vote where his mouth is. He unnecessarily lists all three combinations of the three discussed roles, suggesting that any of the three would be fine if that's what people want.

my reasoning: rolecop can really **** with us the more I think about it; Poisoner makes it so that we can never defend our PR's which sucks but it's a choice I can live with, and even then, if we got a bus-driver (though unfortunately, scum will know if we did), we can still deal with it.

This is an odd statement to make about Role Cop. Koops was opposed to Role Cop from the beginning. He makes it sound as if he was on Role Cop, but was convinced that it was the lesser of two evils.

I feel like it's better to get town input and discussion on what we need before puting a vote down. Besides it's not as if I haven't been vocal with my opinion on the matter.

Think of it this way. if things go best possible results for mafia. Day 1 miss lynch Night 1 kill someone, RB someone, Cop someone.
Day 2 miss lynch Night 2 Kill someone RB someone Cop Someone. they can effectively cover 8 town members in two night actions.

Fair enough. You've been the biggest case on me reconsidering Poisoner tbqh.

k

this.

also, Sephiroth, even though I agree you've been more vocal (re: not fencesitting), I want to see a vote still soon. I'd understand if we were still earlier in the day, but I'm not sure many of you all realize that we're less than 4 hours from deadline. If you want that Poisoner vote, Poisoner is going to need all the votes it can get

Seph hadn't voted yet, and he did vote for Poisoner after this post.

I'm still against poisoner. I find jailer very likely, and I find it likely scum would push for a poisoner to counteract it. Rolecop + Roleblock is powerful, but everything we can give the mafia is powerful. With a rolecop + RB, we give the mafia a combo that fails as soon as one of them dies. I think that's better than giving them a powerful single role. I'd rather a disguiser than a poisoner, since if we're going to gamble on one of those two, I think it's more likely we didn't get a tracker or cop than it is we didn't get a jailer. I still want neither.

It may just be me, but, I think you're overestimating the ability of the Jailer here. Especially if Scum gave Town a Bus.

Right for the wrong reasons, heh.

See as an Idea hider wouldn't be that bad. Like if the mafia killed someone who was adamant in their claim to trusted town at night, then we know what they had when hidden.

But that's very situational which is why I don't like hider as much. If the mafia lucks out or plays well enough to discover a power role, we can lose an important role and not even know it. There are too many possibilities and variables that could result from a hider imo. Not that any of the options are great but I'd rather poisoner cause at least we know for sure what we get with it.

Hider could lead to anything and has a better chance to make a town win hit or miss imo, because knowing if a power role died( especially if a vital one) is crucial to the town so they know what they lost and how to adjust.

Mafia could use the hide as a way to manipulate the game, and I'd rather not find out what they could do when the hide the details of s player whose role they could have fully figured out and then killed to mess with town.

I'm open to suggestions, but I thought I'd voice so of my concern over this and further back up my choices.

Z25 explains himself out of Hider with a preference for Poisoner. He was already off of Hider, though, and this was an unsolicited response to Maven; no one asked Z25 to back up his choices.

vote poisoner

rb and poisoner makes it so that mafia only performs two actions a night instead of three. We are also not guarenteed a jailer, and the rolecop still has a chance of finding our PRs earlier than we would want.

Not much to say about this, it's a vote for Poisoner with reasoning, 45 minutes before the deadline.

Poisoner: Z25 tk seph fire (4)
Flip Hider:
Disguiser:
Role Blocker: Thirdkoopa, Fire Emblemier, Maven, Pokechu, Fandangox, Shishœ moydow kant z25 (9)
Role Cop: Pokechu, Maven, Shishœ, Fandangox kant (5)

With 9 votes and 5 votes, Mafia will receive a role blocker and a role cop.

Day 0 is over, Day 1 has begun! Role pms for those who need them will be going out momentarily.

That's no votes from me, J, Vult, and .

I'm online now (just in not-time... sorry everyone) and I'm unhappy with the combination of these choices.

I would have chosen Poisoner and Roleblocker probably but after reading the arguments (i.e. town probably got a Jailer) more I'm not as angry with the outcome as I could be. I haven't read the Disguiser description but I'm assuming it's bad like everyone thinks it is.

Also just so everyone knows I assumed there was a vote threshold to lynch rather than a deadline in case anyone was confused about my earlier post...

Checking into Day 1 votes next.

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

Sephiroth: Vult, Z25, Shish, Thirdkoopa, pokechu (5)
Thirdkoopa: Kantrip, Moydow, Seph, , nabe (4)
Moydow: Soup (1)
Nabe: Fand (1)
Z25: Maven (1)

With five votes, @Sephiroths Masamune, Mafia Goon, has been lynched! It is now night one. Night one ends at 6 PM Central, 24 hours after this post.

Poisoner voters were Z25, Koops, Seph, and Fire. Of those, the one who stands out is Fire, now Soup, who took a weird lateral stance and held fast on Moydow. I don't want to put lynching the goon entirely past scum; someone on the Seph wagon could be scum, I'll dig. Moydow only voted for RB and gave Poisoner a soft commit in my eyes. Kantrip voted RC+RB almost immediately and never wavered, same with Fand, and Maven was there but somewhat close behind. Fand and Maven were floating on islands by Day 1 deadline, but Fand again was consistent about it.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Have a headache; don’t know if you have any questions but I feel I should clear this up - RC is a powerful scum role but at that point I hadn’t realized the effectiveness that Hider would have. It took Maven and My back-and-forth posting to realize “disguiser sucks. Hider sucks. RC is the lesser of five evils.”

The devastating combos were Disguiser+RC or Hider+RC, which, for reasons I don’t need to explain but gladly will, could have gone bad.

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

Nabe ghosted me

I actually forgot you, sorry. When I read this the first time, I thought you were saying that I hadn't PM'd you, but you PM'd me and I didn't respond.

First, there have actually been four Sexytimes, so that would be the fifth. But more importantly, working on your question #2 a bit more, and yes to your question #3, although less than at Night when you asked, now that I've reread somewhat.

 

[Maven89]

Pretty sure I came down with an illness, it will come in the morning

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Pretty sure I came down with an illness, it will come in the morning

Sorry to hear that. I’m having seasonal allergies so I know the feel. Get well soon!

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Sorry friendo, these short phases just make me itch.

Pulling up a seat.

no that's kind-of me right now too. These short phases are a concern. We have less than 24 hours left and everyone's gone quiet. To everyone not voting: Put your vote somewhere you'd be happy with in-case you're not here for deadline.

Vote: Moydow. Willing to switch to Maven; I need a good case for the others that weren't on the Seph case and a damning case for those that were with me on the Seph wagon.

Willing to give my thoughts towards everyone. Won't bore you w/ ISO's, but, no matter what Nabe flips, #674 has been added to my posts of interest from him.