Project M Social Thread

[Yung Mei]

MUH EMKAY !

EDIT

Streaming Scott pilgrim now, with the guys
http://www.twitch.tv/captmeiling/old
i lied, we switch to PM

 

[Kati]

Someone finally did the model import for Ganon:

http://i.imgur.com/b2w2Dcn.jpg

 

[standardtoaster]

very unlikely that we will be streaming tonight. metroid won't be here until midnight or so and oro may not be able to make the tournament at all

 

[Zef]

flopcentral

 

[ds22]

Someone finally did the model import for Ganon:

http://i.imgur.com/b2w2Dcn.jpg

To bad it has renamed bones.

 

[standardtoaster]

Stream will go live in about 2-3 hours

 

[Nausicaa]

So I read through the 'Known Bug List' but have a question.
What's the deal with these?

Attacking a shield can push the attacker off edges (e.g. Marth Fsmashes a shielding opponent, the shield pushback pushes Marth off the ledge.)
Techrolls do not carry momentum from hitstun
Stale Moves is still not quite perfect in that they do not stale until after the move ends.
Wind Knockback pushes characters off of edges
There are still some instances where characters collide into one another after being hit from a attack. This should only occur when thrown but does pop up sometimes still for non-throws.

The shield push-back working differently, the tech-rolls not carrying momentum, the stale moves happening after they end, the wind knock-back pushing off edges, and especially the GETTING HIT BY CHARACTERS COLLIDING...

Are all really quite cool, and make Project: M have some more significance as a stand-alone game from Melee.
In other words...

Is this really something that's considered a 'bug' and it's going to be changed, or is it just a 'known' thing and mentioned on the thread so people don't suggest changing it?

Wouldn't things like Norfair's random-loop flipping top platform, not being able to Wall-Cling to the left side of walls with some characters, and crap like that have greater priority over things that don't 'break' the game?
If those 'glitches' are consistent, I think they're worth keeping.

 

[DMG]

Just about all of those are blatantly considered bugs and want to be fixed. They are features that were not like Melee. The techroll one is probably the most significant because it can drastically change tech situations that overall could favor the person being hit. Blows that would normally kill or slide the person off due to momentum, can now be dealt with by techrolling. Which makes CCing and teching an even stronger option for avoiding kill moves/bad situations. To balance that out a bit, there are situations where you would slide away and avoid punishment due to that momentum, and techrolls being "sticky" can punish you in places you normally would not. Overall though it's a very negative change when coupled with the ability to CC/tech imo.

Shield pushback for both defender and attacker being janky, and techroll issues, are much bigger than wallcling or stage related issues. The other 3 are not as big of a deal, but I could see the last one changing things for teams. We already have PM "flavor" differences from Melee, we don't need shield pushback issues and molasses techrolls to help differentiate or expand the horizon of this game.

But what do I know... this whole post is just a *big* pile of theorycraft.

 

[Wrestlemania]

W

Someone finally did the model import for Ganon:

http://i.imgur.com/b2w2Dcn.jpg

Wait is this actually usable?
If so do you have a download link.

 

[standardtoaster]

http://www.twitch.tv/standardtoaster

Smash @ Gaming Generations! - Feat. Metroid, Frootloop, Kels, and more!

 

[Kati]

so characters should magically stop moving once they reach the edge while being pushed by the wind?

http://forums.kc-mm.com/Gallery/BrawlView.php?Number=32173&Moderated=All

 

[standardtoaster]

doing melee pools right now because setups are somewhat limited. we'll switch to pm after pools and maybe a little bit of the way into bracket

 

[Yung Mei]

 

[DMG]

I'm guessing it's cape related. After she got caped, that's when she was eating all the hits for free.

She Double Jumped and turned around at basically the same time. Maybe that's related to it too

 

[Yung Mei]

i posted a thread about this and everyone said i was crazy

i h8 u all

 

[DMG]

I love you too, but yeah I'm like nearly positive this is cape related. A move that changes your direction, momentum, physics, etc is bound to be ****ed up like that lol

 

[standardtoaster]

http://www.twitch.tv/standardtoaster

we have 8 entrants for pm. we're doing a round robin into bracket

 

[GaretHax]

I'm the Jigglynaught *****.

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

Sorry bringing up old posts but I've been busy and forgot about this thread

Uh, yeah sanity. Powershielding like that allows you to do any ground move out of it except dash/walk ofc.

So when I powershield an attack move, I could so any smash attack out of it? Do I have to jump out of shield first or do I just press the C-stick while still holding the shield? Or do I need to let go of the shield button first?

I want to know where people have gotten this almost mythical idea that the PMBR's goal all along was to make everyone Melee top tier. If that was the case, there would not be a reason to nerf anybody. Fox and Falco are the two main top tiers in Melee, and they are both ridiculous in that game. If you want to make everyone Melee top tier (so, on par with the spacies), you would have to intentionally design the characters to be just as ridiculous as them. Why would they do that? That is essentially making another Brawl Minus. The goal is to make a balanced roster of characters. That is, as balanced as they could possibly make it; a cast that can go toe-to-toe with each other fairly evenly. Oro is right. Making everyone Melee top tier while ALSO making sure they are balanced and not silly in design is virtually impossible.

Then you'll always have Fox and Falco on top any clearly better than the rest of the cast, if you really want that then everyone needs to stop complaining about Fox and Falco.

And where did you hear that's their goal? I was almost 100% certain it was to make everyone able to deal with melee top tiers

The goal isn't to have everyone top tier Melee level. That would be a dumb goal. Power wise, they are probably aiming for a Peach, Marth, Mario, or Wario kind of level. The process you just described is very slow for a game that does not have patches until many MANY months have passed. It might take you multiple years to have a game that has 10 "Spacie certified" characters at that kind of rate if you try to get it right for a few characters at a time. It's not efficient and it's much more painful to do it that slowly and let so many characters lag behind. Buff the wahzoo out of everyone, give them all CG's and free combos and blah blah. Destroy the character's original personality and feel, but possibly manage to get everyone on a higher level. It's not hard to come up with crazy ****, but it's hard keeping the game feeling like any shade of Melee at that point.

OR, you could buff everyone up over time in a non top tier severe way, make sure you also take care of the Squirtle players in the process. Maybe give them a free evolution to Wartortle? Give D3 a refund on his mallet and instead equip him with a giant rubber chicken? Cmon there are some great ideas out there.

2.1 Ike was an abomination

Really? Is the damn goal stated anywhere? And why would they aim for that level, and then improve Peach, Mario, and C. Falcon? In that case they must be aiming higher if they made those characters better right? Only makes sense

So why do you think nerfing characters after they get good is a better idea? How is it better than continually working to make sure characters can deal with melee top tiers without being out of character or overly ridiculous?

OR, you could buff everyone up over time in a non top tier severe way

This is what I've been saying the entire time man, buff everyone up over time, not ridiculous buffs all in one patch, but when a character gets to melee top tier level, don't nerf the complete crap out of them so they're noticeably worse, that's just counter-productive, just take out the absolute ridiculous things about them

Better than being frustrated because the game isn't fun.

(sup Skyward Sword, and both DS Zelda games)

Shadic's right. Phantom Hourglass just felt unsatisfying to play. Not to mention the final boss was a pushover. Wind Waker deserved a better sequel, preferably not on the DS.

While Skyward Sword was pretty fun, it just didn't give me that epic and cinematic feeling that Twilight Princess did. People might say TP was bland and didn't bring anything new, but really, most of the "new" things SS brought to the franchise were just minor inconsequential additions dressed up fancy to make them look like terrific innovations. Also, Midna is MUCH more likable than Fi. And hotter than Zelda.

Who knows, bad perspective/knee. Don't look at the ****in leg.

DOESN'T MATTER SHE SLAPS. She > Whatever Diddy Kong was saying. That girl looks ghoulish skinny, don't want that.

All of these posts have my love, TP was a fantastic Zelda game, everyone I know likes it more than OOT and it sold better too, and that SS Impa is way too skinny, girls need to have some ***

 

[CORY]

MARIOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

 

[GMaster171]

Gonna be streaming with a friend, for a couple hours.

http://www.twitch.tv/gmaster171/

 

[standardtoaster]

www.twitch.tv/standardtoaster

CACTUAR STAMINA PANCAKEEE

 

[Nausicaa]

^Edit: I quickly took a peak at that stream, and immediately saw Jiggs vs Mario on that we're DK level, and immediately saw them do a few things that made me happy as they seemed to know what they're were doing, and enjoyed seeing ok players having some fun...
Then Mario use an F-Smash and whiff as Jiggs got 'slightly' above him, and just floated over to try Bairing instead of the free Rest... and I thought about how they probably don't really play those characters too much, so I was even enjoying it more to see people playing around that much with characters they're unfamiliar with.
Then realized it was Stamina Mode... and I realized Rest would be bad anyway and it's probably good they don't do optimal things with the characters like in standard play, I enjoyed it more because Stamina means ULTRA screw around...
Then saw her with 100HP, Mario with 11HP, see her jump in the Barrel and kill herself...
I enjoyed that even more. TY
Melee rocks.



DMG, this post is horrible... LOL

Just about all of those are blatantly considered bugs and want to be fixed. They are features that were not like Melee.

Blows that would normally kill or slide the person off due to momentum, can now be dealt with by techrolling. Which makes CCing and teching an even stronger option for avoiding kill moves/bad situations. To balance that out a bit, there are situations where you would slide away and avoid punishment due to that momentum, and techrolls being "sticky" can punish you in places you normally would not. Overall though it's a very negative change when coupled with the ability to CC/tech imo.

We already have PM "flavor" differences from Melee.

But what do I know... this whole post is just a *big* pile of theorycraft.

For starters, somewhere in another dimension, there's a Melee where tech-rolls stick, and someone named GMD saying...

"Blows that would normally be dealth with by tech-rolling, can now kill or slide the person off due to momentum. Which makes CCing and teching an even weaker option for avoiding kill moves/bad situations. To balance that out a bit, there are situations where you wouldn't slide away and avoid punishment due to that momentum, and techrolls being "loose" can punish you in places you normally would not. Overall though it's a very negative change when coupled with the ability to CC/tech imo"

You're right, it's theory-craft, and it's a silly mind-set to go 'They're bugs because Melee', and theorizing it's downsides/benefits in that way is ignorant.
As well, it doesn't answer the question.

From PMBR officialism, are these 'targets' or just meh?
Would an official statement be... "Only when these things are tended to, can Project: M be considered complete'
Or are they ok?


Second thing...
These ARE The 'flavor' differences from Melee.
Sure, don't ADD any, but why are you advocating REMOVING them? Is collision of Grabs sooooo good, but collision of OTHER hits soooo bad as to be removed without even giving it a chance? (I think it's sweet to have it, personally, and it's a 'negative' effect on the game to take it out [see what I did with opinions thur?])



Third thing...

If Falcon in Melee could ONLY Wall-Jump off the LEFT side of Yoshi's Story, and NOT the RIGHT side, it wouldn't just be NOTED, it would be mentioned often, and considered in Falcon's game-play. As that's something that drastically changes his options when off stage.
Regular comments would be...
"I can Wall-Jump, sweet, but ONLY off 1 side of a Stage? Why not the other?"
^That would be silly.

Sheik chilling on the side with Wall-Jump + Double jump at her disposal when edge-guarding, Diddy Side-Bing to a wall to stall for a second for a recovery opening...
Only on 1 side and not the other...
And that has LESS priority than things that don't break the game/are consistent/not Melee so add flavor and need to be changed?


AKA
Tech-Roll stickiness, Shield push-back, Collision of hits, etc, is 'Janky' and needs fixing
... in the same post as ...
Inconsistency with character abilities not working in some cases but working in others
...
Is silly...

This is also directly a result of the same lack of awareness that's making the meta-game of the public masses with Project: M move like a Slug tied to a ball and chain.
Attention given to some things means it's lacking in others, and this is a prime example.
Somewhere, somebody understands what I'm saying.

In the meantime, why don't we just let Mario's Cape **** UP THE GAME AT RANDOM. That would be TOTALLY ok.
After all, **** breaking the game due to inconsistency is more important than **** that doesn't break the game but isn't what we're used to.




Don't mean to pick your post apart, or be mean, but I'm sure you know that since you did say the post was a 'giant ball of theory-craft'

Still, horrible post is horrible, especially around a topic that involves helping the game.

In the meantime, I'm gonna re-build Norfair, as it's a good design that's poorly executed, (and horrible to work with in BB the way it's built), and glitch-filled like DotA2 crit mechanics mixed with Princess Venelope on sugar IV's...

 

[me9595]

im not really sure where to ask this and couldnt find an answer so i thought this would be the best place to ask. Anyway, i was looking into having a project m channel on my wii, however the only way i could find had the requirement of using the brawl loaded mode and i use a usb loader because my disk drive is broken and it cant read disks. so does anyone have a way where i can have project m load off the usb

 

[Minor Pandemic]

Finally got a Wii to play Project M on (instead of emulating it and using xbox controllers), woohoo! For reasons beyond my control, I can't use it until tomorrow night though, so I want to ask: is there anything crucial I need to know before I set up PM? Similarly, are there any Wii modifications I should definitely get? Thanks guys, I'm pumped to finally play for real.

 

[Translucent]

If you are using the hackless method just remember to delete your custom stages before you start it up and follow the instructions at the website. There are a ton of cool mods you can get too if you look around, such as Jcaesar's music pack, cool CSS screens, and many others.

 

[Giygacoal]

I don't recall seeing any official PMBR confirmation on the subject of whether the game will be balanced around the Melee A characters or the Melee S characters. All the website says is that the goal is to make a balanced game.

If you want to make everyone Melee top tier (so, on par with the spacies), you would have to intentionally design the characters to be just as ridiculous as them. Why would they do that? That is essentially making another Brawl Minus. The goal is to make a balanced roster of characters. That is, as balanced as they could possibly make it; a cast that can go toe-to-toe with each other fairly evenly..

Not necessarily. First of all, Brawl Minus plays VERY differently from Melee top tier duels. Second, not EVERY matchup has to be 50/50. There's such thing as niche balance, which is logically what the game should be going for if it is to have good character variety (though I'm not expecting many 90/10s).

 

[SpiderMad]

Using the hackless method, once in a while it just freezes when you go to load up P:M through the stage builder: then you have to hold your Wii's power button until it shuts off (better than unplugging it).

Once you get tired of that like I did you can install homebrew and download the homebrew .gct off the projectm.dantarion website (RSBE01.gct) and replace it in the codes folder: then the homebrew channel will be able to just read your card and then just select "Gecko" to load up P:M. Then the only thing faster than homebrew is USB loading which I still haven't done yet.

 

[DMG]

aaa

I probably should have taken out the part about "these things aren't like Melee" because now you're assuming I want them gone specifically for that reason, as if the first two don't impact the metagame in negative ways. Maybe I didn't make it clear otherwise, but sticky techrolls and shield jankiness have a much deeper impact on the metagame. Do you really REALLY honestly think that not being able to wallcling on one side of the stage changes the game that drastically? The other things listed are fine and don't have priority: you would be right that wallclinging has a higher priority than windboxes or stale moves not being 100% perfect. The throw/attack bug is interesting and maybe should be allowed, so there minor victory #1 for you I guess.

I'm not even going to address the alternate dimension scenario because it literally adds ****ing nothing to this and it's **** like that where people find you condescending as **** and annoying. You're very good at looking over every minute detail in everyone else's posts, but you really don't see sometimes how much of a **** you are in yours? Pretty odd.

Like, you see the first two things as merely flavor that don't change the game very much, but your bugs are clearly more important to be fixed and change the game. Shield issues and techroll issues are universal and are more likely to cost you something in a game than wall clings not working sometimes on one side of the stage. Is that a bug that should be fixed? Yes, but it shouldn't be very high priority in the big scheme of things. With your kind of attitude, why should we fix the 1 frame delay on momentum actions like jumping? It's just one frame, not a big deal and adds flavor right?

I'm not a PMBR member so fine what do I know. Go find someone that's not going to troll, and ask them straight up if shields and techrolls have more priority/want to be fixed more than your wallcling. AND, ask if it's for a reason better than "cause Melee" since I guess you believe that's the only reason people want those things fixed. If I'm wrong and you're right, I'll write you an apology in rainbow Crayola Crayons, take a picture, and you can use that for a sig for the rest of your life.


Edit: Might as well address Sanity here too

When I say Mario Peach Marth level, I meant after the buffs not before. Those characters are in a good spot currently and that's probably a good area they would balance around. It's not stated by them to be their goal, just as it's not stated to make everyone Spacies 2.0, but my guess is reasonable. Those characters are capable, can RPS with each other fairly well so not too much domination, and don't have to eschew personality and feel for viability.


Ike had some ridiculous things about him and they touched on all of that. They also decided to change some things that weren't necessarily broken, but did so to make the character well designed. What you stated is a paradox however: do you KNOW how hard it is to make a character that actually 100% competes with Spacies, fits a good character/feel profile, and isn't ridiculous? While Ike was handling Spacies, he was also molesting most of the cast for stupid reasons. You don't craft characters to be Spacie killers, and then all of a sudden they somehow don't **** on the rest of the cast or somehow *aren't ridiculous*. The very definition of Spacies in the Dictionary is "Buck Wild Balls to the Wall Ridiculous". It's basically impossible to make characters that good, without either destroying their integrity of a character, without giving them ridiculous traits, and without them also going on to demolish the rest of the cast. MEANWHILE, as Ike and Lucario are good, the game doesn't improve significantly and instead of people ******** about Spacies as Usual, now it's 2-3 other character along with them. Sounds like a GREAT game huh, lot of balance we achieved by leaving Ike as a stupid bull**** character.


I'm ****in SORRY some of you had fun with 2.1 Ike but please ****in let it GO. Go play a lower tier character that has to work hard and wasn't given a bajillion strong options. Have fun actually thinking about how to CG how to Tech Chase and how to finish for the kill instead of LOL Ike. For the love of god move on and silently weep over your fallen comrade, and I MEAN silently because the rest of us have no love for that silly piece of **** you all came to know and love as 2.1 Ike.


How's that for a ****in answer?

 

[Vashimus]

You seem upset.

 

[DMG]

There are quite a few synonyms for upset that could describe me right now yes. At least I can realize when I'm trying to be a ****, unlike someone we know.

 

[SpiderMad]

The real Ike forgives you for your misguided slander, RIP.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GxvQVNA39A

 

[DMG]

I already saw that, very funny lol

His face over the guy's face, shaking and flailing around, was too good

 

[SpiderMad]

Did you watch my newest combo video then?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yI7OQiRRaY4
It's got everything: combos by me, combos of me, offline, wifi, good quality video, ****ty quality video, video effects. 1st I made without any direct Camera to TV recordings though, back when things use to be easy and simple before people made me deal with the VirtualDevil. It's missing all the good combos people disconnected on ftl though O_O, that definitely makes me angry now to make another one.

 

[DMG]

I'm not a combo video ***** unless it's old school Melee or some of the recent Melee ones

Or if Sethlon made one the next day, I'd bookmark it forever

 

[Nausicaa]

How's that for a ****in answer?

What are you even talking about?
All I want to know is if Project: M, when complete, will have these things fixed as far as the PMBR is concerned. You said you're not PBMR and said you posted a bunch of theory, which are both accurate, so why do you even CARE in the first place? haha

For discussion sake...
If Shield push-back and tech-rolling worked like this in Melee for the last dozen years, it would be considered janky if it was the OTHER way in Project: M. Gauranteed. Hence the alt-dimension thing, it was just an analogy for how funny that is, and it happens to fit perfectly.
Janky is when you trip...

or can't go a direction based on position

When things that bring different dynamics to a game, and nothing more, I can't see how that's a negative thing. Sure, it's drastically 'different' in terms of meta-game (compared to what? hehe), but is it really that bad? I don't care about the Melee thing, I care about the fact that you're saying it's bad in Project: M. It's different, does it really hurt the game? Your comment is the first time I've even heard/seen this MENTIONED, and it's a comment saying it's NEGATIVE. No assumptions going on here. lol
Edit: For context, I'm referring to this quote/these comments.
"impact the meta-game in negative ways" and "sticky techrolls and shield jankiness have a much deeper impact on the metagame"
Deeper impact on the meta-game meaning the existing meta-game, the Project: M meta-game that has these. The oddity is that this implies the Project: M meta-game is being hindered in development by this because you're saying it's negative.
Impacting the meta-game in a negative way implies in relation to something else, what is that something if not Melee?
That's where I assumed you were referring to Melee. The 'because Melee' has reason behind it, I wouldn't assume you would say 'because Melee' without some actual depth and understanding of your own comment sources. haha

Things might be 'better' or 'worse' but it can't possibly be 'worse' enough to break the game. At least as far as I know, if this is worth taking further as I might be missing something, then sure, but so far it's just 'difference in meta' and nothing terribly hindering, like say, unresponsive controls that don't add any dynamics at all. hehe

I don't get the right vs wrong thing, but is the reason you're upset because I'm 'right' on something? If I was 'wrong' and just ignorant to something, there would be 0% reason for you to be upset at all, with anything... if you're upset and I'm 'wrong' then you're just being ignorant along with me. lol

Editedit: On the 'big jerk thing'
There was nothing condescending or offensive about either of this 'big' posts if they're not taken in that context. Just a lot of bluntness and direction. I mean well, and I'm only curious and vocalizing it, as it doesn't make any sense to me, and I know you intellectually know what you're doing. If I realize I've done 'wrong' I'll vocalize it, but I find it to be 'right' of me to try and learn, or help, after all, you're smart and articulate things well, and like discussing/communicating (which is what (and ALL) an online community is for) so you should be able to figure out what I'm saying and make value of it. My only hope (going on a whim I guess sometimes) is that you take what I say this way. In a way that's primarily to help somebody making intelligent posts actually make their posts without missing something, so if I think you've missed something (in this case, the value [good/bad qualities] and reasoning behind them), it would be WRONG of me NOT to post about it.
That make sense?
Hope that's clear and helps the cause of goodness. haha
I get that 'I'm a ****' thing a lot on public forums. New to it, usually people PM/email me and it's easy to assume they know what they're in for with conversations with me. Public masses are different, as it's public so is actually taken more personally since it's so exposed. My bad if that ever results in people taking offense to non-offensive things.
*is learning.

 

[standardtoaster]

everything in the list of known issues are things we intend to change/fix when we're able to

 

[DMG]

If it's clearly worse than the alternative, and is also considered a buggy misdirection from Melee, why should it stand? Something doesn't have to be "broken", for it to be dumb or completely inferior to another alternative and warrant replacement. The additional flavor PM has added tends to stem from Brawl additions like RAR Pivot Grabbing and grabbing the edge backwards during recovery for more characters. The shield and techroll differences are not intended and have a negative impact on the game, they were not conscious variations implemented as an experiment. Even if they were, it's pretty clear that people would prefer the Melee ones, both feel wise and because the Melee versions are better for the game. Both of them have been talked about for awhile, people forgot or focused on other fixes that happened for 2.5 since that patch was massive. Were you not around for the Spacie players who were ******** that Shield Pushback was much bigger than Melee and was messing up shield pressure? On the other side of the spectrum, people noted how far Ike and others slid people on shield which made them super hard to punish OOS. Like, pretty long discussions went on about these things a long time ago, but they died down because the issues were not likely to be fixed soon and it was wasted breath talking about how safe Ike Ftilt was on shield lol.

When PM is complete, the shield and techroll issues WILL be fixed or they will die trying. I don't have to be a PMBR member to confirm that for you because the general consensus heavily leans towards fixing those things (and I guess you really haven't seen or heard about these things until now, because it was pretty blatantly obvious in past discussions), nor would I have to be one to tell you those things matter much much much much *much* more than your wallcling issue. If you want a PMBR member to confirm that for you, again that's fine. Both of those can universally affect the cast, instead of an issue that only affects characters that can wallcling, and only on 1 side of the stage, which may not be an issue or be possible based on the stage to begin with.

 

[Bryonato]

Going to stream some more friendlies tonight at 5pm PST. We're pretty free out here but love to see new faces in the chat.

www.twitch.tv/bryonato

 

[Nausicaa]

Cool and thanks. That was easy.
So many edits, posts come before I finish every time. haha

Is the current shield-push-back simply not acceptable then, and still something that everyone can't get used to (implying Falco can't shield pressure normally [it's messed up] is blatant 'because Melee' stuff) and isn't something that might be fine given a chance (which it forcibly is thankfully) even with good amounts of time?
As in, is it really THAT bad, right NOW, as far as everyone is concerned, that there's NO way it would be left when finally changeable? Or is there at least a little bit of 'you know, this might be ok in the long-run' going on?

Every mention of the 'better for the game' idea is directly 'because Melee' so far, and this is discouraging me from having faith that people have made a decision they actually consciously stand by.

I missed a lot of that talk, as it didn't seem to be a big issue to me to begin with (didn't think it was something that WOULD be heavily discussed since it seemed fine) so never bothered. I did see threads around about it though, so might have been beneficial for me to check out then. It died off for the same reason (won't be changed for a while) but for what I would actually consider less important reasons (not possible to fix yet vs not necessary to fit yet).
About a dozen times on Smashmods (probably more, no exaggeration here either sadly), I saw people say things like "I see things clearly this way" and had them go "I take that back" simply with discussion. Everything from character specific stuff to re-spawn invincibility, with everyone from PMBR core members to simply hyper-active decently respectable community posters like Lucion and leelue.
It's not uncommon or unreasonable to over-look things, or even more-so, to short-sight things, especially when it comes to MAKING things. Whether it's mechanics (Project: M in particular) or even things like stages (the abundant things that great stage-makers like Mewtwo2000 'miss' that I have to tamper with is an incredible example in another area of Smash-related stuff) is immense and consistent.

^I realize that comment can come across many different ways, but all I'm trying to say, is that I strongly suggest NOT changing something based on changes it makes to meta-game. Frame-rate issues and responsiveness don't fall into this category. This is referring to things that are literally 100% 'they make things different and we think it's bad' simply due to things like discomfort, unfamiliarity, or just current perception.
Example/Analogy (reason behind it so hopefully people follow [maybe I should post this every time haha]): There's a reason the public community sees Wolf different now than they did Month 1 2.1, and it has NOTHING to do with the changes made to the game in 2.5, and it did NOT happen instantly. Everyone sees him differently now then they did a month ago, a WEEK ago, it's gradual. The ONLY reason the public mass's better Wolf players couldn't play Wolf like today when he FIRST showed up, is because awareness and perception, people have changed.

With that, has this steady 'We see it this way' tone you're saying the community has about these changes (tech-rolling etc) been consistent since day 1, or is this something that changed in the way it was discussed when comparing Summer vs Winter discussions around it?
I'm just curious to know if people have changed to concreting themselves in a position on it, or if they've changed to be open to change. Given how it's easy to see people changing their minds on things so drastically in so short a time (Wolf then to now play-style), it's funny thinking how people try holding themselves so firmly in positions of opinion.
Thinking we know something is the only human error, and yet we love it.
I hope the answer gives me excessive optimistic faith in people.