Project M Social Thread

[JCaesar]

Oh and for anyone interested, here is an in depth preview of 2.5 ROB. I just cut out the part of the stream where I talk about his changes from 2.1 to 2.5.

 

[leelue]

Parry isn't something I'd count as something that makes yoshi viable.

 

[9Kplus1]

That^

Parrying was a pretty significant part of his defensive game, but Yoshi's still trash in Melee.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Parry isn't something I'd count as something that makes yoshi viable.

Well no not by itself, but its a trait that made him pretty unique, and it helps to preserve his play style from melee.

 

[Stunts]

If they plan on making Yoshi exactly like melee, then he would've been spat out and thrown away already. If they plan on giving Yoshi redeeming qualities from the other two smashes, then that is a different story. As I recall, they had the same DJC mechanics as they gave Ness and Lucas. Which is a substantial buff in it's own right. If they incorporate that with moves like his 64 Utilt (along with the rest of his techability from that game), his brawl bair, and his parrying than I can imagine him being totally viable.

A zair would also be cute but I dont imagine it being any nessessary.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

I never said he needed to be exactly like his melee incarnation, just that his core design shouldn't change much from it. Stuff like his up tilt are good as long as they fit in his play style.

And a zair would be too much, and I don't think its even possible to add it to him, it would be better if they just made is neutral b not make the opponent invincible when they come out of the egg.

*edit*- Btw I'm not the authority on yoshi lol, so don't take this as me demanding changes and stuff, I'm just trying to get a good conversation going that isn't completely off topic in this thread.

 

[`dazrin]

http://twitch.tv/dazee_

Live now streaming 2.5 with Zero Suit Samus!

 

[NeoZ]

http://twitch.tv/dazee_

Live now streaming 2.5 with Zero Suit Samus!

Is this over already?

 

[leafbarrett]

Is this over already?

Apparently, yes.

 

[NeoZ]

Apparently, yes.

It seems kinda weird, daze posted that like 40 minutes ago, maybe they went out to eat or something.

 

[leafbarrett]

L-canceling is now officially pissing me off. How many days straight of practicing nothing but every L-cancel timing for every aerial of every character do you have to ****ing do before this stops being nothing but a gigantic pain in the neck?
EDIT: And no, I'm not bringing up the beaten to death argument, I'm just asking how the **** the competitive players manage to learn this crap.

 

[Mattnumbers]

You just press shield right before you hit the ground with an aerial. The timing doesn't change depending on the move you know.

 

[leafbarrett]

You just press shield right before you hit the ground with an aerial. The timing doesn't change depending on the move you know.

No, it doesn't. However, gravity, terminal velocity, and fastfall velocity DO change. On top of that, some aerials affect the character's momentum, and all of them have different animations.

 

[Shadow Huan]

the timing is similar to ground teching.

or it is in melee, i dk about P:M

 

[Stunts]

I never said he needed to be exactly like his melee incarnation, just that his core design shouldn't change much from it. Stuff like his up tilt are good as long as they fit in his play style.

And a zair would be too much, and I don't think its even possible to add it to him, it would be better if they just made is neutral b not make the opponent invincible when they come out of the egg.

*edit*- Btw I'm not the authority on yoshi lol, so don't take this as me demanding changes and stuff, I'm just trying to get a good conversation going that isn't completely off topic in this thread.

You responded before I could. It was essentially a reply to 9k.

No, it doesn't. However, gravity, terminal velocity, and fastfall velocity DO change. On top of that, some aerials affect the character's momentum, and all of them have different animations.

Calm down; take a breather. You just need to practice the timing on when you hit the ground, and press L right before you do so. Yes, every character is different, so you have to know the timing for each character's desired arials. I'm a brawl player, personally. I assure you that it will be involuntary soon enough.

Just curious, which arials are you talking about?

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Really the best things I can think of to make Yoshi more viable are to

1. Make his shield's frame data the same as everyone else

2. make his shield jump cancelable, like everyone else.

3. make his sideb not 100% totally worthless by letting you pop out of it easier (probably be done by making it jump cancelable), plus maybe make it a tad quicker in general. Could give him more recovery mixups, and even improve his ground speed.

4. try to do something about the hurtboxes on his nose being so freaking big. Just giving his head attacks some slightly more disjointed hitboxes might work, but I'm sure they'll toy with it. He trades on practically every Fair he ever throws out.

Other than that, they could just mix/match Melee/Brawl Yoshi traits into whatever, and I'll probably be a happy camper.

A zair... would probably be way too good. He already has neutralB. Yoshi has never smacked people around with his tongue, he uses it to grabs things.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

You responded before I could. It was essentially a reply to 9k.

Oh lol my bad duder.

 

[standardtoaster]

http://www.twitch.tv/dazee_

stream's up

 

[Stunts]

Really the best things I can think of to make Yoshi more viable are to

1. Make his shield's frame data the same as everyone else

2. make his shield jump cancelable, like everyone else.

3. make his sideb not 100% totally worthless by letting you pop out of it easier (probably be done by making it jump cancelable), plus maybe make it a tad quicker in general. Could give him more recovery mixups, and even improve his ground speed.

4. try to do something about the hurtboxes on his nose being so freaking big. Just giving his head attacks some slightly more disjointed hitboxes might work, but I'm sure they'll toy with it. He trades on practically every Fair he ever throws out.

Other than that, they could just mix/match Melee/Brawl Yoshi traits into whatever, and I'll probably be a happy camper.

A zair... would probably be way too good. He already has neutralB. Yoshi has never smacked people around with his tongue, he uses it to grabs things.

He can regain his double jump by getting out of his SideB in the air. But it having a ground buff, like armor
(look at bBrawl in this occasion), would be great. Everything else you said is correct. Yoshi must have those.

And for the record, I don't think Yoshi should have a zair, neither. It is completely uncannon with the character.

 

[standardtoaster]

canon =/= cannon

 

[Stunts]

My bad.

It would be funny, though.

"Tongue Cannon FIRE!"

umm... does Zamus' DownB cancel any momentum?

 

[leelue]

Leaf, I use R
Maybe that'd help?

I learned L cancelling in like 2 months. Yeah it takes a while.
Might help if you stay with as few characters as possible.

Don't forget: the hitlag changes between moves too (adding to that list). The timing is the same (7 frames: the 6 before you land and the frame you land) but the hitlag on multihit moves and moves like Zeldatoes throw the distance you're expecting to be at for a loop.

The tech window is significantly larger. 20 frames in melee iirc.

 

[Yobolight]

Is it a coincidence that the best brawl characters (MK, Oli, ICs, DDK) are not in PM?

 

[byron]

They've actually confirmed that it will NOT be Samus.

or so I've read

Wow, didn't even realize I had double posted X_x

Oh really? That's great! There is still hope.

 

[`dazrin]

http://www.twitch.tv/dazee_

Still streaming for peoples who don't know.

ZSS!

 

[Stunts]

http://www.twitch.tv/dazee_

Still streaming for peoples who don't know.

ZSS!

Your stream keeps going out on me, no matter how many times I refresh. It is most likely due to my poor connection, since I am now at my house.
I'm sure it's great, though. I'll just plan to watch the archives later on.

 

[hotdogturtle]

Is it a coincidence that the best brawl characters (MK, Oli, ICs, DDK) are not in PM?

Seems like it, since 2 of the 4 have extremely complicated coding issues that are unrelated to their tier status.

Also, are all of those characters actually above Snake on the Brawl tier list now, or did you just exclude him since he's already in P:M?

 

[Mattnumbers]

Snake is #5 now

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Yup, snake is down to #5 now. MK, Oli, DDK, and IC's are all above him.

 

[bubbaking]

I don't see why he wouldn't be.

Any changes they made to nerf him that hard would be pretty noticeable, and I've heard no such things. Any changes he gets are probably pretty minor.

I don't know how much you've been paying attention to various updates of Lucario's changes, but they seem anything but "minor". It's taken me quite a while to get used to 2.5 Lucario, not that I'm against his changes or anything...

2fawk Luke v Ivy

such a dumb mu

I'm pretty sure a lot of chars vs Ivy are gonna be dumb, liiike spacees.

I dunno what your point is. Ike and Lucario could both use some design tweaks. If you only want to look at a character's viability being under Fox and use that as the bar for any changes, then you're missing out on the fact that there's plenty of room for improvement design or "feel" wise. Ike being top 5 doesn't mean he's designed well lol.

Fox being exactly the same as he was in Melee doesn't mean he was designed well either.

His dash attack isn't an instant fast shield pressure from a good distance anymore.

Good riddance to the old DA. Lucarios relied on that way too much and just did DA > sideb all day.

Nair/drill > shine

Lucario got some buffs with his nerfs. Like breverse downb and faster dsmash.

I also heard something about canceling aurasphere charge on the ground without going into his shield animation for easier ASC followups. Don't know how much of that is true.

Magus revealed quite a few changes for 2.5 Lucario on Smashmods. You should check it out.

 

[SpiderMad]

I'm rooting for Diddy Kong for 2.5. The few times I've played Brawl in the past year he's been the funnest with his nanner tricks. He's also the most interesting to watch in Brawl besides Nairo's MK (oh and sometimes Pikachu, Squirtle, Lucas, and Wario are interesting).

Gnes http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-e_HkZZHxd8
ADHD http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=WMv5dzUR-ps#t=175s

BKING http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=dhtWLPxAzK4#t=351s
ESAM http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=pXfnLlsLS-c#t=1156s

FAE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7161d1oq9AU
Mekos/Gluttony http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2QzjgcBXX0


I could care less for MK being in 2.5, solely based on his probably low jumping velocity. Jumping velocity and aerial momentum = fun. If he can't weave as awesome as Jiggly or Jump and fly like a kite like Ike, then It's not fun. Ike and CF are fun, because they can fly

 

[Yung Mei]

so, i officially mained every character in pm as of today


charizard is probably the most fun character ive played yet, holy ****

 

[bubbaking]

Long posts are back.

I think the best way to keep yoshi viable is to keep him as melee as possible. The addition of being able to get his double jump out of his side b already gives him a lot of viability with all the things he had going for him in melee, and when I say making him more melee, I mean giving back his melee super armor, the way he throws his eggs, and the addition of parry.

Isn't his vBrawl egg throw superior, though? On the ground, it's the same, and in the air, it greatly helps with recovery. SideB won't always be enough to save Yoshi. You still have to fall quite a bit with it.

A zair would also be cute but I dont imagine it being any nessessary.

I honestly thought that zairs only belonged on chars with tethers. It would look weird if Yoshi used his tongue to recover, lolz! Although, that would be an interesting recovery buff.

L-canceling is now officially pissing me off. How many days straight of practicing nothing but every L-cancel timing for every aerial of every character do you have to ****ing do before this stops being nothing but a gigantic pain in the neck?
EDIT: And no, I'm not bringing up the beaten to death argument, I'm just asking how the **** the competitive players manage to learn this crap.

Make it muscle memory.

Really the best things I can think of to make Yoshi more viable are to

1. Make his shield's frame data the same as everyone else

2. make his shield jump cancelable, like everyone else.

Dude, why do you want to give Yoshi every possible shield benefit in the universe? His shield is already un-pokeable and if the PMBR ever manages to code lightshields into the game, his lightshield will be ridiculously good for escaping pressure. "You can't have your cake and eat it, too." Besides, if people really want him to get his DJ armor and parry back, what would be the point of even using these things if he had such a ridiculously good shield game. Having a strange and awkward shield encourages players to utilize other tactics for protecting themselves and counterattacking. It's what makes Yoshi unique.

3. make his sideb not 100% totally worthless by letting you pop out of it easier (probably be done by making it jump cancelable), plus maybe make it a tad quicker in general. Could give him more recovery mixups, and even improve his ground speed.

And why does everyone want to make everything JC-able these days? Yep, I guess everyone really needs their own 'shine', now don't they? You're not a character unless you're a spacee.

Seems like it, since 2 of the 4 have extremely complicated coding issues that are unrelated to their tier status.

Well actually, they kinda are related. Most of these Top Tiers are top largely because of very irregular qualities they have that place them a cut above the rest, qualities that would be extremely difficult to introduce to a 'Melee environment' without being OP or broken (literally). For instance, MK has his transcendent priority on nearly all his attacks and I'd imagine that is a coding nightmare. Oli's Pikmin (another coding issue) give him stupid camping and punishment abilities. The ICs (obviously a coding headache) have their 'hand-offs' and desynch techs. Only Diddy seems to be 'relatively normal'.

 

[leafbarrett]

For instance, MK has his transcendent priority on nearly all his attacks and I'd imagine that is a coding nightmare.

Actually, transcendent priority is just a single flag on hitboxes. I could go and give all of a character's moves transcendent priority right now if I wanted to.

 

[bubbaking]

Well, I don't know much about coding, but I'd heard that taking away the transcendence on all his attacks made their properties weird. You said, "I could go and give all of a character's moves transcendent priority right now if I wanted to." Could you also take it away? What happens when you do that?

 

[| Big D |]

Dedede's ftilt need transcendent priority.

But actually, is there any particular reason why Wario's bite no longer has the ability to linger?

 

[leafbarrett]

Well, I don't know much about coding, but I'd heard that taking away the transcendence on all his attacks made their properties weird. You said, "I could go and give all of a character's moves transcendent priority right now if I wanted to." Could you also take it away? What happens when you do that?

They would clank with other moves.
Transcendent priority isn't something unique to MK, it's just that he uses it much more extensively than any other character. For example, the sweetspot on Lucario's fsmash has transcendent priority. All that actually means is that it ignores opponents' hitboxes, nothing more and nothing less.

 

[leelue]

Yoshis eggs in melee could be thrown behind him more than in brawl.

 

[CSDragon]

Zeeeeeeeeeee
esssssssss
esssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss

 

[leelue]

I like that leaf knows more about mechanics that can be explored in bbox/psa than just about every regular