Project M Social Thread Gold

[OmegaMuffin]

Let the man TO how he wants. If he thinks that a lack of wobbling is beneficial to the metagame then he can run his tournament to reflect that. Otherwise run your own tourney

Carry on, Man of Juggling.

 

[shairn]

@ Saito confirmed for creeper
Why would you like a post from me from last april

 

[Soft Serve]

So me and Byrd just announced we're TOing an arcadian PM tournament here in AZ(No current or former PR members are allowed to enter) and we've got like 30+ confirmed already in just 2 hours.
We even got someone to offer a sponsor/pot bonus this quickly. The problem is that its offered by the United Brony Association of Pheonix. Which normally wouldn't really be a problem, but the guy offering it is the guy who hosts our weekly tournaments, and we're afraid that he'd get laughed at/insulted by stupid smashers and then stop hosting the weeklies and biweeklies

internet, wat do?

 

[Saito]

@ Saito confirmed for creeper
Why would you like a post from me from last april

So I looked @ OmegaMuffin 's signature

I was wondering what caused that statement.

So I looked at the chain, and lo and behold, I laughed.

And you got a like for it.

You're welcome.

 

[Bleck]

internet, wat do?

Don't support anything with 'brony' in the title.

 

[PMS | Tink-er]

I have no real experience with bronies. Are they just MLP otakus, or like weird fappy NEETs?

 

[shairn]

So me and Byrd just announced we're TOing an arcadian PM tournament here in AZ(No current or former PR members are allowed to enter) and we've got like 30+ confirmed already in just 2 hours.
We even got someone to offer a sponsor/pot bonus this quickly. The problem is that its offered by the United Brony Association of Pheonix. Which normally wouldn't really be a problem, but the guy offering it is the guy who hosts our weekly tournaments, and we're afraid that he'd get laughed at/insulted by stupid smashers and then stop hosting the weeklies and biweeklies

internet, wat do?

If he already hosts events, why would anybody care?

 

[Saito]

IT BEGINS.

 

[Soft Serve]

If he already hosts events, why would anybody care?

He hosts it for the shop he works at so he doesn't/isn't allowed to advertise there i guess. part of the deal is that we have to give regular shout-outs on stream for the club, and tell people to join it and what not.

 

[shairn]

He hosts it for the shop he works at so he doesn't/isn't allowed to advertise there i guess. part of the deal is that we have to give regular shout-outs on stream for the club, and tell people to join it and what not.

Haha. That's hilarious. Just be professional about it, tell your commentators to do the same.

 

[PMS | Tink-er]

IT BEGINS.

Hopefully these work.

Hey look, you just made smash 4 look like something I would want to play in about 30 seconds flat.

 

[Rᴏb]

Hmmm I guess, lol.

I honestly think there are just as many people who are more inclined to attend due to wobbling banned than there are people who don't attend due to wobbling banned. It's a lot easier to identify the latter, though, since they're more outspoken on social media.

how is this possible?

 

[PMS | Tink-er]

I have no clue. Nobody picks up PM because ICs can't wobble. I don't think anybody cares about wobbling at this point. It's only really strong in lower levels. Getting a grab at high percent is rally hard for the ICs at top level.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

no wobbling and 3 stock pm with melee running 2 hours over what u doin juggleguy

 

[MechWarriorNY]

It's an excuse for idiots to whine.
Let 'em.

 

[SpiderMad]

http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1020583/Animation-Bootcamp-An-Indie-Approach

Overgrowth is one of the few games I really want to play when they get a real release, they've been making it for 5 years or something

Smash, Legions Overdrive http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBhrD1r0U7U , and Urban Terror http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNo2cBAufqo are all amazing because of movement. You can't get close to their movement in other fighters and FPS games (other Tribes and Quake styled games [which Legions and UT are based on] come close in certain ways but are just lacking http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXYvRqMTqao )

oh and there's also Gunz which like Melee had some physics exploits that they took out in the next one but I'm not knowledgeable on the details. Just reading the comments on this it looks like people complaining about Wavedashing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ryu2a67B-I "
SanjiBaratie
You nostalgia ******s really want your butterfly and K-style back don't cha? how about you go back to 2004 where those skills belong and stop trying to abuse the game.
Ginger Dollars This game is ****ing stupid without skill and fast movement you uneducated swine. "

 

[PMS | Tink-er]

Stop plz spider mad indie games hurt

Someone plz say something interesting

Why does everyone disappear at night.

 

[Strong Badam]

3 stock PM is a perfectly valid ruleset, it just doesn't make sense in the context of a tournament running 4 stock Melee. Melee has been going overtime at venues for over a decade, yet no one is vying for a stock reduction because the game important people care about would then have less gameplay. I'll never run it again unless Melee's is also reduced.
I also think the "3 stock PM" movement started due to an extreme outlier in CEO's top 8, roughly 1/3rd the time of which was due to coaching and CP time. I enforced a no coaching rule, a 30 second handwarmer limit, and 1-2ish minutes (loosely enforced) Counterpicking time limit during PM top 8 and despite a bracket reset and Mew2King ledge-pill spamming obnoxiously with Mario the PM top 8 took around 2 hours (allotted time was 3 hours). It will be even less of an issue with the recovery nerfs coming in 3.5.
Also PM's top 8 at CEO started late because they had issue getting CRT streaming working. Melee's transition was quick because that issue had already been resolved.

Hmmm I guess, lol.

I honestly think there are just as many people who are more inclined to attend due to wobbling banned than there are people who don't attend due to wobbling banned. It's a lot easier to identify the latter, though, since they're more outspoken on social media.

I haven't heard of a player not go to a tournament, particularly a tournament as exceptionally well run as The Big House, due to a character clearly worse than at least 5 characters not being arbitrarily nerfed. I've heard them complain about it but never not attend if they were otherwise willing and able.
This would be less of an issue if Ice Climbers weren't already such a difficult character to play that so few players use them. It's easy to just ignore such a small minority in this situation; it certainly doesn't make it fair, though. As an example, if literally every low tier player petitioned for the banning of Sheik's chaingrabs, their voice wouldn't be very loud because low tier players are few and far between. It's hard for ICs players to make an argument when a ton of Fox/Falco/Sheik/Marth (all characters better than ICs-With-Wobbling) players who clearly benefit from Wobbling banned outnumber them 100:1 and there's no reward for such players supporting Wobbling.
It doesn't harm them. You could ban Pichu's nair and no attendees would choose to skip your tournament as a result. You'd instantly get half as many attendees if you banned Fox's shine. They wouldn't necessarily think your rule is stupid, but they would all instantly recognize that their performance at your event would be significantly worse. Rulesets should be based on what's fair, not what you can get away with without significant drops in attendance.

EDIT: Rob did you get here by namesearching "Jugglyguy"?

 

[Hylian]

Shulk blows anyway

I think Shulk is really good :D. Uploading some videos now.

 

[trash?]

didn't someone time melee sets vs. PM sets and find out that PM is only like 20 seconds longer at best, anyways?

I think it was @DrinkingFood. unless this is another scenario where I completely imagined another DF post which is disconcertingly an often occurrence

also hylian pls don't find something as messed up as ICs grabs in brawl

 

[| Kailex |]

We're still waiting for shulk's aMSa

 

[Strong Badam]

Oh also I read back to the page where the wobbling thing was discussed and someone (@ trash? ) seems to think Juggleguy was personally responsible for the daisy-chaining of powerstrips that lead to fried TVs at BH4 day 0.
If it isn't painfully obvious already, Juggleguy, like any other head TO, is not personally responsible for literally every single detail of the event. It's like how I am personally not responsible for every single facet of each character or mechanic in Project M. I guess that doesn't stop people from blaming me anyway but yeah.
I can personally tell you that it was someone who is neither me nor Juggleguy that set up the power strips that way.

 

[PMS | Tink-er]

What I want to know is why wobbling is removed from PM but ICs didn't get any new tools to compensate. They're buggy atm, but even if they weren't, if they're weaker than the melee top 5 and Fox and Falco's only real nerf was to their ability to circle camp for obscene damage, why did ICs take such a big hit? If wobbling doesn't make ICs op in melee, why was it removed in PM without compensation? Are we supposed to figure out some sort of short hop footstool chain grab infinite or something.

 

[Strong Badam]

Your argument seems at least mostly based on the assumption that a character deserves to have a particular amount of goodness. The removal of wobbling is a design change and not a balance one, and compensation is not necessary, much like how we don't plan to compensate characters for weaker recoveries. Sheik also similarly did not get comparable compensation for the removal of her CGs. So long as the characters are viable, they present neither a balance nor design issue. Whether or not Ice Climbers are viable remains to be seen.

That said, the throw release points should be resolved in 3.5, fixing their ledge handoffs and giving them guaranteed dthrow -> nana uthrow -> followup from center stage.

 

[Hylian]

I think Shulk is really good :D. Uploading some videos now.

Videos uploaded!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ghNUGjUgw4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRYf1NySGsg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPnjzG81sBQ

No promises Canon .

On the topic of ICs, Strong Bad has it right. They are a complicated character and we didn't want to overbuff them and make them dumb despite wobbling being gone. They have some bug fixes and nice polished for 3.5 that will make them much nicer to play trust me. I plan on maining IC's in 3.5, and I think they are the worst character in 3.02.

 

[PMS | Tink-er]

I understand and appreciate the philosophy, and I'm not really bothered by it either. In fact, I'm okay with it, as the ICs have been shown pretty definitively to not require wobbling to be viable. Infinites don't really belong in fighting games, imo.

My question was more aimed at the design question of viability. Yoshi has been shown to be quite viable in melee, and so has Pikachu, but they have both received buffs in PM. ICs and Sheik have both been shown (though on a larger scale because they are top tier characters which see more use) to be viable in melee as well, but these characters received nerfs in PM.

My question then is how viable is a viable character in PM if that character were ported over to melee? Is the aim to make every character at least A Tier or higher--where tiers denote how much the player has to compensate for the character's flaws by playing smart--but not necessarily that every character is in the same tier, requiring the same level of intelligence on the player's behalf to play for example Fox, Olimar, and Lucas to their highest ability?

Or is the aim to make every character, when played to the highest level to be definitively in the same tier as every other character? This is what I feel is the direction PM is going. By nerfing Melee top tiers (with exceptions, with the understanding is that characters like Captain Falcon would not be top tier if ported into PM directly) and buffing the low tiers, it seems that the design correction of PM is that every character, if ported into Melee (again, with exceptions made to compensate for MUs in PM not existing in melee) would be approximately A Tier.

Am I totally off base here?

ETA: oh hey Hylian, you ninja'd me! I'm currently stuck with just a melee setup, and I decided I might as well pick a character to practice on it till I can get a PM setup, so I'm currently getting into ICs (my skill with whom will hopefully transfer to 3.5), which is why I showed the interest. Didn't mean to chew y'all out like that. >.<'

I'm not really bothered by y'all's design choices, just curious, as they're sort of kept a bit vague imo.

 

[| Kailex |]

We dont need all characters to be viable, just leave icies for hylian to have fun with alone

 

[Comeback Kid]

Overbuffing characters like they have in the past Tink leads to massive problems that require multiple updates to fix as they try to trim enough from a character to be balanced without losing their playstyle entirely.

I'd say not wanting to give ICs things that will have to be taken away later when they break the game is a good instinct to have in general. They can be given new tools in the future if deemed necessary.

 

[PMS | Tink-er]

See I was right y'all were focused on ICs because it made it sound like a personal complaint. I was just using them as an example. My question was just asking for an explanation of the PMDT's character design goals when comparing characters and character balance in PM to those in Melee.

Besides, I'm Tink-er. I main Toon Link, the most broken character in the game.

(For real though neon thinks toon link is like A+ tier. Maybe my friends will take toon link serious now)

 

[Bleck]

guys stop saying Tink come on

 

[PMS | Tink-er]

Did you have a problem with Tink? I don't recall.

I know my asexual friend doesn't like it because it sounds like twink.

 

[Comeback Kid]

Toon Link is gonna make one think of Tink for short, and thinking of Tink-er(bell) is even worse. You're getting a name change right? Problem solved.

But I believe the PMDT have espoused the David Sirlin concept of balance before: you aim for A tier Falcon in Melee so that you may either overshoot it to S tier or undershoot it to B tier. That is viable and good.

If your aim is making every character super awesome, then they will probably be broken.

 

[PMS | Tink-er]

Lol bro I'm getting a name change to PMS | Tink-er.

Toon Link gets called Tink. I prefer to call him that. It's pretty common.

And I think that's a pretty solid place to aim for balance. I don't think it's an ideal end point, as you end up with people sticking to the S tiers instead of using A and B tiers a la melee, but I think it's a great place to aim for before tweaking things slowly.

 

[Soft Serve]

I feel like the difference between design a character to work as a concept and designing a character to be great is pretty distinct. I dont know if its intentionally, but I feel like characters such as old sonic, Ike, M2, Squirtle, wario, wolf, and others were built with a specific goal or idea that the character as a whole would reflect, while then characters like Link, Mario, Lucas, GnW, etc were made by taking some pre-existing concept and just making it all around better, and not tweaking it to flex out certain aspects.
5 AM rant but yeah
I find it interesting to think about creation mindsets, between "lets make this character/idea more solid than it currently is" and "lets take a concept or character with interesting unique potential,re-make parts and tweak other parts it so that it fits together and works, and let balance be more apparent later"

 

[PMS | Tink-er]

Editing, soft, that's called editing.

Also lmao it's 8 am here

 

[Bleck]

I know my asexual friend doesn't like it because it sounds like twink.

nah it's just why would you abbreviate a two syllable thing! bleh n feh

 

[Deleted member]

@strongbad - fly amanita made it clear that he did not attend the tournament specifically on the premise that his character was arbitrarily nerfed, so there's your one example. otherwise i agree with your post.

as an aside, i also disagree with the wobbling removal. that said, when we did the latest rule set in the MBR in like 2009, we were also deadlocked and simply chose to not address it in the rule set to leave it something of an open-ended question. juggleguy was entirely in his right to ban it.

 

[Bleck]

if you need an infinite to be able to play as somebody you may, in fact, be a scrub

 

[Comeback Kid]

The definition of a scrub is someone who refuses to use a tactic they consider "cheap" or "unfair" that is allowed within the parameters of a game out of some sense of "honor."

So if Amanita is playing to win over the long term ie making sure he can use an infinite in the future by not participating now, that is completely an anti-scrub mentality.

 

[Bleck]

The definition of a scrub is someone who refuses to use a tactic they consider "cheap" or "unfair" that is allowed within the parameters of a game out of some sense of "honor."

I'm gonna go ahead and assume that this is some regional thing you've picked up, 'cause I'm pretty sure 'scrub' is just a synonym for 'baddie'