Project M Social Thread Gold

[eideeiit]

Tokyo Godfathers was good. Right now it feels like it maybe is my favorite Satoshi Kon movie, but idk. They're all so good. Tokyo Godfathers doesn't really have those moments that make your head go boom like Paprika and Millenium Actress do, but it more than makes up for it with a better fleshed out, more lovable and human cast, it feels like to me. I suppose Paprika would be the last of the three for me, since I didn't really like the way it took towards the end. I suppose I'll have to let a rewatch still far in the future decide which of the two left is my favorite.

also tomorrow will be my first day

rip individuality for six months

 

[Life]

Apparently OOT any% is cool again.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

me trying to decide whether or not rage is a terrible mechanic or simply a tacked-on band-aid type of solution to mimic the late-game explosiveness of melee

like on one hand, in a game without rage having a large percent lead on the last stock in a game like smash4 would basically guarantee a win pretty much all the time while still being a relatively volatile situation in melee
but with rage the uncertainty where a large disparity in percents still results in an "it's anybody's game" situation mimics the late-game volatility of melee so there's not much "objectively" wrong with it

but the feeling that rage is "artificial volatility" rather than an intrinsic part of the game still exists because why would you struggle through the slow slog of the early game only to get to a situation where you feel like your lead is actually worth nothing ESPECIALLY in a game where outright kill options/combos are few and far between (outside of "the top tiers")
even moreso in smash where oftentimes you rely on linking moves to get to kill moves that are hard to land raw, but such linking moves don't actually link at higher percents so a character that should be "behind" ends up being harder to kill as well as being able to kill you earlier

tl;dr: smash4 is frustrating to watch jesus christ
also I miss seeing zss because her volatility/kill power felt reasonable and familiar

then again there's probably just a fundamental difference in whether or not people prefer fast-paced games that by definition tend to be more constantly demanding/volatile vs people who like slower-paced games that have a focus on long-term strategy

so is it just preference or a difference in game design philosophy or paradigm or what? am I just not pre-disposed to liking smash4? am I the one with terrible ideas in game design? is there a reason why even in fast-paced games such as marvel or melee the best characters/players are those that can slow the game down or control the pace of the game at will? are fast, dominant characters inherently braindead or "bad design?" are these all false dichotomies? hence larrydavid.gif

 

[CORY]

nerd

 

[Rawkobo]

me trying to decide whether or not rage is a terrible mechanic or simply a tacked-on band-aid type of solution to mimic the late-game explosiveness of melee

like on one hand, in a game without rage having a large percent lead on the last stock in a game like smash4 would basically guarantee a win pretty much all the time while still being a relatively volatile situation in melee
but with rage the uncertainty where a large disparity in percents still results in an "it's anybody's game" situation mimics the late-game volatility of melee so there's not much "objectively" wrong with it

but the feeling that rage is "artificial volatility" rather than an intrinsic part of the game still exists because why would you struggle through the slow slog of the early game only to get to a situation where you feel like your lead is actually worth nothing ESPECIALLY in a game where outright kill options/combos are few and far between (outside of "the top tiers")
even moreso in smash where oftentimes you rely on linking moves to get to kill moves that are hard to land raw, but such linking moves don't actually link at higher percents so a character that should be "behind" ends up being harder to kill as well as being able to kill you earlier

tl;dr: smash4 is frustrating to watch jesus christ
also I miss seeing zss because her volatility/kill power felt reasonable and familiar

then again there's probably just a fundamental difference in whether or not people prefer fast-paced games that by definition tend to be more constantly demanding/volatile vs people who like slower-paced games that have a focus on long-term strategy

so is it just preference or a difference in game design philosophy or paradigm or what? am I just not pre-disposed to liking smash4? am I the one with terrible ideas in game design? is there a reason why even in fast-paced games such as marvel or melee the best characters/players are those that can slow the game down or control the pace of the game at will? are fast, dominant characters inherently braindead or "bad design?" are these all false dichotomies? hence larrydavid.gif

I'm with you.

There are a lot of things I actually happen to like about Smash 4. The game balance of 1.1.6 is as though it's PM with Brawl mechanics and a few additional twists, which makes it a little more reasonable to fool around in because of viability. I find top sets of the game to be hype, and CEO convinced me to pick up the game again because holy hell that tournament was awesome.

The main problems for me, though, as a guy who started competing in Smash through PM and moving further forward with Melee, are that there's a distinct lack of natural movement control, something that's been said a billion times but will never change, and the fact that grabs are now more like grabs in a fighting game, where they tend to be more kill-throwy or don't serve much of a purpose. Sure, at low percents, there are followups on some grabs on some characters. But then they stop and you're better off going for stray hits of some kind on the ground.

Ledgetrumping has become a bit of a more interesting mechanic because of the 2-frame punish, but it's also a bit of a deterrent and reminds me of PM 3.02 with "everyone can make it back" syndrome. And despite the increased aggressive options...well, it's still a hella defensive game and that's not quite the spectator sport.

Rage is the reason people want to up the game to three stocks, but three stock tournaments have already shown themselves to a) not be great logistically and timewise and b) destroy the viability of viewership on a stream. I don't know why the community's having a debate over it when it would likely capsize the cruise ship they've built for themselves next to Melee.

 

[Grey Belnades]

Someone let me borrow an XBONE controller please.

me trying to decide whether or not rage is a terrible mechanic or simply a tacked-on band-aid type of solution to mimic the late-game explosiveness of melee

like on one hand, in a game without rage having a large percent lead on the last stock in a game like smash4 would basically guarantee a win pretty much all the time while still being a relatively volatile situation in melee
but with rage the uncertainty where a large disparity in percents still results in an "it's anybody's game" situation mimics the late-game volatility of melee so there's not much "objectively" wrong with it

but the feeling that rage is "artificial volatility" rather than an intrinsic part of the game still exists because why would you struggle through the slow slog of the early game only to get to a situation where you feel like your lead is actually worth nothing ESPECIALLY in a game where outright kill options/combos are few and far between (outside of "the top tiers")
even moreso in smash where oftentimes you rely on linking moves to get to kill moves that are hard to land raw, but such linking moves don't actually link at higher percents so a character that should be "behind" ends up being harder to kill as well as being able to kill you earlier

tl;dr: smash4 is frustrating to watch jesus christ
also I miss seeing zss because her volatility/kill power felt reasonable and familiar

then again there's probably just a fundamental difference in whether or not people prefer fast-paced games that by definition tend to be more constantly demanding/volatile vs people who like slower-paced games that have a focus on long-term strategy

so is it just preference or a difference in game design philosophy or paradigm or what? am I just not pre-disposed to liking smash4? am I the one with terrible ideas in game design? is there a reason why even in fast-paced games such as marvel or melee the best characters/players are those that can slow the game down or control the pace of the game at will? are fast, dominant characters inherently braindead or "bad design?" are these all false dichotomies? hence larrydavid.gif

I'm with you.

There are a lot of things I actually happen to like about Smash 4. The game balance of 1.1.6 is as though it's PM with Brawl mechanics and a few additional twists, which makes it a little more reasonable to fool around in because of viability. I find top sets of the game to be hype, and CEO convinced me to pick up the game again because holy hell that tournament was awesome.

The main problems for me, though, as a guy who started competing in Smash through PM and moving further forward with Melee, are that there's a distinct lack of natural movement control, something that's been said a billion times but will never change, and the fact that grabs are now more like grabs in a fighting game, where they tend to be more kill-throwy or don't serve much of a purpose. Sure, at low percents, there are followups on some grabs on some characters. But then they stop and you're better off going for stray hits of some kind on the ground.

Ledgetrumping has become a bit of a more interesting mechanic because of the 2-frame punish, but it's also a bit of a deterrent and reminds me of PM 3.02 with "everyone can make it back" syndrome. And despite the increased aggressive options...well, it's still a hella defensive game and that's not quite the spectator sport.

Rage is the reason people want to up the game to three stocks, but three stock tournaments have already shown themselves to a) not be great logistically and timewise and b) destroy the viability of viewership on a stream. I don't know why the community's having a debate over it when it would likely capsize the cruise ship they've built for themselves next to Melee.

****ing grade A jabronerds.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

nerd

tru

 

[Rawkobo]

Someone let me borrow an XBONE controller please.




****ing grade A jabronerds.

I play more braindead than a John Cena fan, though.

 

[DMG]

Rage is not a good mechanic, majority of player base would love to turn Rage off or patch it out. Majority of other FG I can think of would provide negative reception from player base + actual negative gameplay impact if similar Rage were introduced. The same as most people would not appreciate Rubber Banding in casual games like Mario Kart.

The concept of Rage might have been accepted more if the impact was drastically reduced. Rage changes a lot about the game: if it merely increased your damage dealt by 1% each hit or the maximum knockback increase would only let you kill players 5% earlier than usual, people probably would just accept it and move on. Obviously the impact is much stronger and noticeable, to the point that new kill setups and throw setups exist (or disappear) solely due to Rage.

The game is pretty decent regardless of 2 vs 3 stock. 2 stock will always prevail until Smash 4 community convinces the largest Tourneys that it's a better idea. AKA they can't (Mr. Wizard does not need Smash taking up even MORE hours at EVO). Which means Smash 4 TO's should start hosting their own large 3 stock events. Should have plenty of time to run a 500+ man bracket in 2 days, if you aren't also running 6 other brackets that day (which is MLG, CEO, APEX, EVO, etc).

Smash 4 players that want big sponsored CEO-style tournaments running 3 stock, with like 10 other brackets, are basically asking for a 4 day Golf Invitational, given the number of people who currently are interested in entering Smash 4 at Nationals

 

[Nausicaa]

'Safe'
It's in right now. Nintendo's doing it with Smash, and everything else. Console games do it with their loads of remixes. Cinema is a pile of remixes. Things like Overwatch are the epitome of the "Nothing interesting, new, or risky, but we have a big budget!" slogan of this generation of entertainment.
Sadface is sad.

Played PM for the first time in about a year last night.
Was on set-ups with modded Lucina PSA's, another with massive stage and costumes expansions, another unspeakable build, and still haven't played on the actual official last patch yet.

Soon though. Game is good.

 

[Bleck]

rage is a good mechanic

am I the one with terrible ideas in game design?

yes

are fast, dominant characters inherently braindead or "bad design?"

yes

 

[trash?]

The same as most people would not appreciate Rubber Banding in casual games like Mario Kart.

nah, the second you take out the rubber banding the game just becomes a worse trackmania where you can nudge your opponents every once in a while. I actually found a "competitive" MK scene (6v6 and goes over 12 races per-set, IIRC?) and the weird item play requires you to be incredibly consistent and deal with scenarios you might never have to touch on ever again, it's neat

also rage as a mechanic is honestly what holds all the brawl-stuff that game has together, the second you lose it the game gets even longer and to argue it solely as a "comeback mechanic" is forgetting that there's no rounds in smash, the winning player who gets a stock now has an advantage since their opponent has to put in far more effort with less knockback to take a stock back

 

[eideeiit]

grabs are now more like grabs in a fighting game, where they tend to be more kill-throwy or don't serve much of a purpose. Sure, at low percents, there are followups on some grabs on some characters. But then they stop and you're better off going for stray hits of some kind on the ground.

I actually think this is better than Melee's usual "GET THE GRAB". Promotes knowing good situational punishes and this deeper game knowledge, not those few good grab "bnbs". I don't watch S4 though.

 

[Rawkobo]

I actually think this is better than Melee's usual "GET THE GRAB". Promotes knowing good situational punishes and this deeper game knowledge, not those few good grab "bnbs". I don't watch S4 though.

The grab gripe for me would be circumvented if the first thing I listed, the lack of natural movement, was not so distinct in this game. With good movement, I would be less concerned about the changes to grabs, but the ground game becomes much more rewarding to overly defensive play because grabs mean a lot less after early percent is left outside of those deemed "killthrows."

 

[eideeiit]

Could maybe be solved with worse corner options so that just getting the opponent to ledge would be better?

Also better movement should aid defensive play, no?

 

[Rawkobo]

Could maybe be solved with worse corner options so that just getting the opponent to ledge would be better?

Also better movement should aid defensive play, no?

Maybe.

In regards to movement, perhaps, but I would argue that it would enable mixups knowing how it works out with certain Brawl mechanics existing in S4 still, like RAR. Also, it would let you follow up off of some of the grabs in this game a little better, but not necessarily allow for regrabs or anything that would make us be back to Melee's square one.

I don't find running up, going in shield and rolling back to be equivalent to good movement.

 

[Bleck]

I'm not sure why people continue to describe the ability to suddenly ignore momentum in midair and/or jerk back and forth along the ground as "natural"

 

[trash?]

all of ssb4's best mobility choices all happen to involve you running at your opponent, for the most part. it's not "intuitive" (which is a weirdly subjective term that could just end up meaning "it doesn't feel like melee" to most), and there is some weirdness to how you need to learn something as weird as perfect pivoting to do anything else whereas going in is a fairly easy task, but it does what it needs to do, which is promote getting up to people and trying to commit to something, whereas something like DDing allows you to basically skip any sort of danger up until you try a grab

the way I always viewed s4 is like a weird DI-heavy traditional fighting game, which is that sometimes you can get a couple of hits here and there and potentially time out, sometimes the game's over in a read and a free mixup. throws aren't good here, but unless you're a grappler they weren't ever good to begin with, they're just one extra mixup option. it's a lot of extremes, and I think most issues with the game come down to the fact that you're going to meet one end of that extreme you hate (dabuz pls go away)

 

[CORY]

Could maybe be solved with worse corner options so that just getting the opponent to ledge would be better?

Also better movement should aid defensive play, no?

It's complicated. Good movement foes promote defensive okay, ala dash dancing. But that's because dash dancing is tuned to be soooooo good. If you could tune it down, make it a bit stronger commitment, slightly fewer options out of it, something, it wouldn't be so ridiculous.

Or, give the slower characters ACTUAL better stage control normals. Let the speedsters be able to throw a hitbox across the stage or try to bait you out, but then let the others have tilts that are safe at anything not up close, or good zoning with projectiles, or (a really big deal) make the survival differential between them greater.

Like, make fatties have actually good recoveries, overall, so their weight is a factor, rather than just "I need to run this same edge guard cycle two or three more times" you have to deal with mixup potential.

And/or don't give fast characters potent kill moves. It's difficult to give fast characters poor punishes, just due to how speed will let you stay on top of the opponent real easily and making moves deal literally 2% each is pretty crap. So, just don't give fast characters **** like fox fsmash and suddenly you have to actually use your mobility to set up for the kill moves or to get in three more times.

That was a bit of a rant, my b.

 

[Life]

I can't speak for Smash 4, and Melee's fatties have way more severe issues than bad recoveries, but I think fatty recoveries in PM are somewhat underrated.

You have Dedede with multiple jumps and waddledashing; you have Ganondorf with a float and a real sweetspottable upB that's protected by a hitbox, plus a suicide command grab that can also sweetspot; you have DK and Bowser, who lack vertical recovery but can sweetspot horizontally around a lot of onstage edgeguards (and hey, DK just won a national, facing his hardest counter in Grand Finals, soooooooo); and you have Charizard, who has a glide. Stretching the definition of "fatty" a little, there's Link with tons of crazy bomb options and a zair, ROB with three air dashes, Snake who, well, Snake LOL ...

Sure, they're no Mewtwo or Jigglypuff, and a lot of them are reliant on good DI for the initial kill move, but I don't see anyone getting completely consistent punishes on any of those characters' best players.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

rage is a good mechanic



yes



yes

ah well the authorities have spoken time to go study more game design in the mountains before I bother them with my questions again

 

[trash?]

it's still weird to me that years ago, PM bowser was going to have a proper fire-orb projectile, but it was nixed because it "didn't fit the character". like this is a game where you need stage control, if you just gave him an unclankable projectile and had his moveset play around it that would've actually made for a tolerable fatty design where he could reasonably control stage while still having to commit to something. instead you gave DDD meatshield projectiles and we fell into lopsided-matchup hell

at least PM mewtwo can show us all how a fairly good tank-ish design can work. he has all this coverage and range but with very little disjoint so it's not all safe, dong-tail dhalsim is good

 

[Bleck]

ah well the authorities have spoken time to go study more game design in the mountains before I bother them with my questions again

go with grace, my son

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

I'm not sure why people continue to describe the ability to suddenly ignore momentum in midair and/or jerk back and forth along the ground as "natural"

"jerking back and forth along the ground is unnatural"

isn't this what most real-life sports boil down to though, trying to misdirect your opponent with sudden changes in movement

which is a natural instinct for most people that are trying to avoid head-on collisions?

 

[Rawkobo]

"jerking back and forth along the ground is unnatural"

isn't this what most real-life sports boil down to though, trying to misdirect your opponent with sudden changes in movement

which is a natural instinct for most people that are trying to avoid head-on collisions?

Well, it does mess up your joints.

 

[trash?]

I mean I don't get his point, but also aesthetically it's goofy looking as hell. idk how you'd fix that without actively messing with its internals, though

 

[Raccoon Chuck]

Tokyo Godfathers was good. Right now it feels like it maybe is my favorite Satoshi Kon movie, but idk. They're all so good. Tokyo Godfathers doesn't really have those moments that make your head go boom like Paprika and Millenium Actress do, but it more than makes up for it with a better fleshed out, more lovable and human cast, it feels like to me. I suppose Paprika would be the last of the three for me, since I didn't really like the way it took towards the end. I suppose I'll have to let a rewatch still far in the future decide which of the two left is my favorite.

also tomorrow will be my first day

rip individuality for six months

*Sees Finnish Archipelago recipe*
*salt*
"Get that ass banned."

Edit: Anyone up for some SFV, I was thinking about booting up a lobby.

 

[CORY]

I can't speak for Smash 4, and Melee's fatties have way more severe issues than bad recoveries, but I think fatty recoveries in PM are somewhat underrated.

You have Dedede with multiple jumps and waddledashing; you have Ganondorf with a float and a real sweetspottable upB that's protected by a hitbox, plus a suicide command grab that can also sweetspot; you have DK and Bowser, who lack vertical recovery but can sweetspot horizontally around a lot of onstage edgeguards (and hey, DK just won a national, facing his hardest counter in Grand Finals, soooooooo); and you have Charizard, who has a glide. Stretching the definition of "fatty" a little, there's Link with tons of crazy bomb options and a zair, ROB with three air dashes, Snake who, well, Snake LOL ...

Sure, they're no Mewtwo or Jigglypuff, and a lot of them are reliant on good DI for the initial kill move, but I don't see anyone getting completely consistent punishes on any of those characters' best players.

Can't say much for the others, but with ganon, if you have a decent bair, you just ledge drop-bair once you see him start a recovery move. Then do it until he dies.

If you have a really good bair, you don't even need invuln to do it, just good timing.

 

[Bleck]

"jerking back and forth along the ground is unnatural"

isn't this what most real-life sports boil down to though, trying to misdirect your opponent with sudden changes in movement

which is a natural instinct for most people that are trying to avoid head-on collisions?

there's a difference between shifting momentum and reversing momentum

moving left and forward after previously moving right and forward is requires physical dexterity - moving completely backwards after previously forwards, with no time in between to actually come to a stop, is physically impossible

 

[standardtoaster]

why are people trying to argue with bleck again? we all know how it goes

 

[CORY]

So is double jumping .

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

there's a difference between shifting momentum and reversing momentum

moving left and forward after previously moving right and forward is requires physical dexterity - moving completely backwards after previously forwards, with no time in between to actually come to a stop, is physically impossible

So is double jumping .

video games, man, I tell ya hwat

 

[Bleck]

why are people trying to argue with bleck again? we all know how it goes

yeah, we all know I'm mostly right about everything

So is double jumping .

good thing I wasn't describing double jumping as "natural movement" ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Binary Clone]

why are people trying to argue with bleck again? we all know how it goes

 

[CORY]

yeah, we all know I'm mostly right about everything



good thing I wasn't describing double jumping as "natural movement" ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Sure you weren't.

Oh, hey, 9k's back.

 

[Bleck]

Sure you weren't.

I... wasn't?

 

[CORY]

Maybe not? I don't remember what we're ****posting about anymore, tbh

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Maybe not? I don't remember what we're ****posting about anymore, tbh

waifus

that's what we're ****posting about

 

[Player -0]

I think natural is being used in the context of wanting to do something and it happens more or less without substantial change from the desire intended.

Basically not awkward

as opposed to nature made laws.



also more thoughts about ded things and becoming bored of being alive sounds spooky too. Eventually if you were like thousands of years old it might happen. Then it's like if deity thing exists how does salvation work. Are you actually happy, is salvation actually /salvation/?

friggen spooked man. friggen spooked.

 

[CORY]

waifus

that's what we're ****posting about

O ok

I think natural is being used in the context of wanting to do something and it happens more or less without substantial change from the desire intended.

Basically not awkward

as opposed to nature made laws.



also more thoughts about ded things and becoming bored of being alive sounds spooky too. Eventually if you were like thousands of years old it might happen. Then it's like if deity thing exists how does salvation work. Are you actually happy, is salvation actually /salvation/?

friggen spooked man. friggen spooked.

Stop being a nerd.