Project M Social Thread Gold

[Rawkobo]

Well we are ashamed how you pmdt hyped for an update and then suddenly disbanded without a proper explanation or without saying something like: "we are sorry, here is our final gift, all things we had prepared: project m v3.65? Aka final"

And you're acting, as many on Reddit have and, unfortunately, some here have, like they wanted to, when it has already been explained that they didn't.

Get out of your bubble, dude.

 

[TheDarkMysteryMan]

Already have the build and I'm ****ing lovin Lyn

 

[Lizalfos]

>actually spreading an unfinished build around and telling people to use it
smh tbh fam

Ultimately I think it is good that the stuff gets out there. Maybe some of the alts will be added into, let's say the Dolphin community build.
Let it pan out. I think TOs will mostly stick with 3.6 so the impact will be negligible unless something really comes out of it.

What do you think @Ripple

 

[Exodo]

And you're acting, as many on Reddit have and, unfortunately, some here have, like they wanted to, when it has already been explained that they didn't.

Get out of your bubble, dude.

Well then explain me if it was not a c&d wtf was it ?

 

[Rawkobo]

Well then explain me if it was not a c&d wtf was it ?

Let me paint you a picture.

We currently are aware that the PMDT did not receive a C&D. But, they did get legal counsel. Based on my understanding of the situation, it makes sense for within this legal counsel to be some sort of need to cease distribution/developer support that could potentially incriminate.

That would heavily imply that the big fear lies in what was actually going on with the dev build and taking the risk to post up characters like Lyn, Knuckles, etc. There is an implication that there's someone getting pissed off that might not necessarily be Nintendo if this direction was taken.

Gearing up like this is actually the best chance they have, especially now that the safeguard, which was withholding things that could potentially blow up in their face if they were found out, has been dropped because people believe they're doing something right.

I've already said in this exact thread that I'm incredibly uncomfortable with the fact that people are going to split the community even further with this kind of approach, but the particular component of lawyering up to begin with is an indication of why nondisclosure is the case.

 

[Motobug]

I'm really sad the PMDT has disbanded. Whatever the issue(s) was that arose, I wish everyone on the PMDT luck in their new projects.

The only thing I do wish happened was the release of the 3.61 patch with Awakening Roy, Headband Jiggs, the new ZSS model, and bug fixes. It's a shame to see that content go to waste; the new ZSS model especially looked really good.

 

[CORY]

I really hope that I can pass my calc exam and calc final exam. With all of this going on, I can't even focus properly. I am very ashamed of how a lot of users are acting although I can't say I wouldn't do something like that if I was on the other side. I'm just very sad and depressed right now but I'll make it through this all somehow.

Which calc were you in? 2?

 

[Jaedrik]

Holy **** you might have mastered the art of sounding pretentious.

Lets make a metaphor out of this shall we.

PMDT is a group of artists. They are painting art in a studio that Wiiztec helped build. Wiiztec has access to said studio and sometimes paints alongside the other artists. One day he decides to take pictures of a bunch of half finished paintings that others were working on and share them online.

It doesn't matter what PMDT was going to do with their work.

It doesn't matter if PMDT was ever even going to release the work.

The PM community was in no way entitled to future development of PM (PMDT's art) and just because it makes people or Wiiztec bitter doesn't mean he was justified in what almost amounts to stealing and sharing other peoples' hard work.

I've been pretentious so long I can't tell the difference between when I am and when I'm not. You gotta help me out here, man :D

That metaphor is insufficient, though. It doesn't clearly define or attempt to justify the rights of each person. On an emotional level we wanna say that the artists have a right to decide whether others can view their work. Yet it's not proven the supposed justification of how they'd come to have the right to deny others their eyesight or use of their property. We can see that the artist Wiiztec has a camera which allows him to make an image of the paintings his own. Given that there is no specific contractual obligation to not do with his property (camera, mind) what he wills, I can't see how they'd be justified in stopping him. Whether the PM community is entitled is irrelevant, though I'd agree that we're not entitled to future development, as enforcement of that would require violating the right of the PMDT to not work.

Likewise nobody is entitled to any predicted market share in the future. No prediction can be accurate due to future uncertainty, therefore the execution of satisfying their demands would result in injustice and inaccuracy. If it were to be applied universally and consistently, we ought say that anyone who disfavorably affects another's future in any possible way at any possible degree of removal from the actual event of supposed financial "harm" ought to be punished. Therefore, any that can be considered 'competition' at all would be denied, and that is a reductio ad absurdum, my good dude. This also means Nintendo, indeed any company or artist, has no right to deny others the use of their property on the basis that it might change their future for what they might do.

Edit: this post is a great study of error, critical analysis, and editing. I've made some mistakes, questioned them, and then corrected them to my ability. Please, if you see something wrong with the post, point it out so I may try and grow! :D

 

[Z25]

Here it seems you need to run the files through utorrent:
http://faster-pc.net/related/english/tutorial-how-open-torrent-file/

Then you can add them to your pm folder and it should work.

 

[Deleted member]

Would it be plausible to have someone unaffiliated with the PMDT finish Knuckles and Lyn, so that we could make our own "golden" release?

I'd appreciate if this got answered with a straight yes or no

No. The Dev Team was able to create so much content because we had all of the best talent in the community and 5 years to make our own tools. Besides, did you guys even read the closing letter? "We're done, if you have questions call this lawyer." Play and enjoy the leaks I guess, but stop there.

 

[Exodo]

Yeah well im not interested in some random dudes assumption of the situation i want a real and true explanation coming from the pmdt itself

 

[ilysm]

edit: nvm, this is going a bit too fast right now

 

[Rawkobo]

Yeah well im not interested in some random dudes assumption of the situation i want a real and true explanation coming from the pmdt itself

Which you're never going to get sweet juicy details of because of legal nondisclosure.

I'll say it again. Get out of your bubble.

 

[Kurri ★]

Well we are ashamed how you pmdt hyped for an update and then suddenly disbanded without a proper explanation or without saying something like: "we are sorry, here is our final gift, all things we had prepared: project m v3.65? Aka final"

You don't deserve an explanation

 

[Deleted member]

Holy **** you might have mastered the art of sounding pretentious.

Lets make a metaphor out of this shall we.

PMDT is a group of artists. They are painting art in a studio that Wiiztec helped build. Wiiztec has access to said studio and sometimes paints alongside the other artists. One day he decides to take pictures of a bunch of half finished paintings that others were working on and share them online.

It doesn't matter what PMDT was going to do with their work.

It doesn't matter if PMDT was ever even going to release the work.

The PM community was in no way entitled to future development of PM (PMDT's art) and just because it makes people or Wiiztec bitter doesn't mean he was justified in what almost amounts to stealing and sharing other peoples' hard work.

So to say it in your words, his IS infringing on their intellectual property rights. No they don't own the likeness of the characters or game they are working on, but they DO individually own their own work and changes they made to the project. If Wiiztec strictly leaked things that he was the sole author of, fine. But he's leaked other PMDT member's work too.

You should watch this:

https://youtu.be/d9ryPC8bxqE

Everything is a copy of a copy of a copy, treating ideas as property is a huge mistake as it stifles creativity. Ideas are meant to be shared and flow freely, they aren't "property" because all you've done is build on the work of someone else, and claim it as yours.

Sure is nice to preach for the ability to make derivative work, but the moment someone else tries to copy your work, you take it personally, and this is because we have turned ideas into property.

Ideas are not property, period. Treating them as such is incredible hypocrisy.

And this is coming from an artist. I'm more than happy to contribute to the free flow of ideas.

Case in point, guess who PMed one of the Devs in the PMDT with his Lyn moveset? Guess whose moveset was used as inspiration for the actual build of Lyn? Guess who didn't ask to be credited as a source and still doesn't give two ****s.

Ideas are ideas, simple as that. Nothing is original. Humans learn through copying. You are nothing but an information SPONGE, everything you know, all your thoughts, and beliefs have been adopted from the world around you.

 

[Jolteon]

Whipped this up just now. Hope you all like it, the least I could do.

Spoiler: Thank You PMDT

Lets get it trending. #TheRealProjectMVP

I read this on the bus on my way home from work and it made me cry.

Thank you.

 

[Jaedrik]

Kurri ★ I noticed that the hair either warps through the girl's finger or the framerate is too anime to tell what actually happened in you sig. :D

Silly thought experiment to errybudy: if you could magically synthesize a shovel just by seeing another shovel, is the owner of the shovel you saw entitled to that shovel? ? ?

 

[Kneato]

You should watch this:

https://youtu.be/d9ryPC8bxqE

Everything is a copy of a copy of a copy, treating ideas as property is a huge mistake as it stifles creativity. Ideas are meant to be shared and flow freely, they aren't "property" because all you've done is build on the work of someone else, and claim it as yours.

Sure is nice to preach for the ability to make derivative work, but the moment someone else tries to copy your work, you take it personally, and this is because we have turned ideas into property.

Ideas are not property, period. Treating them as such is incredible hypocrisy.

And this is coming from an artist. I'm more than happy to contribute to the free flow of ideas.

Case in point, guess who PMed one of the Devs in the PMDT with his Lyn moveset? Guess whose moveset was used as inspiration for the actual build of Lyn? Guess who didn't ask to be credited as a source and still doesn't give two ****s.

Ideas are ideas, simple as that. Nothing is original. Humans learn through copying. You are nothing but an information SPONGE, everything you know, all your thoughts, and beliefs have been adopted from the world around you.

The difference here being that PMDT's work was not just ideas, but literal work and product which they didn't want shared.

 

[Z25]

I honestly don't see a problem playing this build. It could almost be a way to honor them, it shows that the fans care and are happy to have something they hold dear complete.

 

[Kurri ★]

Kurri ★ I noticed that the hair either warps through the girl's finger or the framerate is too anime to tell what actually happened in you sig. :D

Silly thought experiment to errybudy: if you could magically synthesize a shovel just by seeing another shovel, is the owner of the shovel you saw entitled to that shovel? ? ?

I'm pretty sure it's just anime

 

[Rawkobo]

I honestly don't see a problem playing this build. It could almost be a way to honor them, it shows that the fans care and are happy to have something they hold dear complete.

While playing it is annoying, it's inevitable. At this point, it's the people asking to take matters into their own hands that are the problem right now. That's not what's intended by it "being up to the community to keep PM going."

 

[Exodo]

Which you're never going to get sweet juicy details of because of legal nondisclosure.

I'll say it again. Get out of your bubble.

Naa I wont, this is bull****, i hope everything gets leaked out so i can get my hand on that roy alt and everything they had shown us for nothing...

 

[Jaedrik]

The difference here being that PMDT's work was not just ideas, but literal work and product which they didn't want shared.

Unless Wiiztec was contractually obligated to not copy / distribute said product, then he didn't give up his rights to do said things.

You should watch this:

https://youtu.be/d9ryPC8bxqE

Everything is a copy of a copy of a copy, treating ideas as property is a huge mistake as it stifles creativity. Ideas are meant to be shared and flow freely, they aren't "property" because all you've done is build on the work of someone else, and claim it as yours.

Sure is nice to preach for the ability to make derivative work, but the moment someone else tries to copy your work, you take it personally, and this is because we have turned ideas into property.

Ideas are not property, period. Treating them as such is incredible hypocrisy.

And this is coming from an artist. I'm more than happy to contribute to the free flow of ideas.

Case in point, guess who PMed one of the Devs in the PMDT with his Lyn moveset? Guess whose moveset was used as inspiration for the actual build of Lyn? Guess who didn't ask to be credited as a source and still doesn't give two ****s.

Ideas are ideas, simple as that. Nothing is original. Humans learn through copying. You are nothing but an information SPONGE, everything you know, all your thoughts, and beliefs have been adopted from the world around you.

I saved this post to a docu I have on my computer called "top posts" hope you don't mind

 

[Z25]

While playing it is annoying, it's inevitable. At this point, it's the people asking to take matters into their own hands that are the problem right now. That's not what's intended by it "being up to the community to keep PM going."

True, I don't think we should take things into our own hand though. We should stay with this build and enjoy what will become a smash relic imo.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Jaedrik

Monk that is the lamest, most self-evident question ever, lol. I expected better from you, son.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Lizalfos]

I've seen it.

And Wiiztec doesn't have the right to share the information. He was removed from PMDT before they announced their end of development. He's sharing things that other people have put hundreds of hours of their lives into. Just because he WAS PMDT doesn't mean any of that is HIS work to share.

People assume we know the reasons PMDT stopped developing. We don't. And because we don't understand the whole picture, we don't know what plans PMDT may have had. And doing what wiiztec did could have potentially **** all over those plans.

"Rights" don't exist. The PMDT was breaking intellectual property rights from the beginning, but they took a risk because they weighed costs and benefits and decided to do something out of passion.

It is fair for Wiiztec to make his own derivative work from their derivative work. With your logic you have to condemn the entire PMDT from the instant they started modding.
All the PMDT members are adults who are accountable for their own actions. I really doubt they will catch flak over something a specific individual published.

We, you included Kneato, have all broken our EULAs with nintendo by "modding" our wiis. It wasn't your right to mod it, who actually gaf though.

Holy **** you might have mastered the art of sounding pretentious.

Let's make a metaphor out of this shall we.

PMDT is a group of artists. They are painting art in a studio that Wiiztec helped build. Wiiztec has access to said studio and sometimes paints alongside the other artists. One day he decides to take pictures of a bunch of half finished paintings that others were working on and share them online.

It doesn't matter what PMDT was going to do with their work.

It doesn't matter if PMDT was ever even going to release the work.

The PM community was in no way entitled to future development of PM (PMDT's art) and just because it makes people or Wiiztec bitter doesn't mean he was justified in what almost amounts to stealing and sharing other peoples' hard work.

So to say it in your words, his IS infringing on their intellectual property rights. No they don't own the likeness of the characters or game they are working on, but they DO individually own their own work and changes they made to the project. If Wiiztec strictly leaked things that he was the sole author of, fine. But he's leaked other PMDT member's work too.

Honestly, calm down. People can do whatever they want and the world is A-OK that way.
That work was contributed and shared together with everyone there and it is completely fair for somebody to walk away with it because they shared it within that group for free and there were no contracts or anything binding.

I don't believe in a higher power, moral right and wrong, or ownership of ideas or even works that you have already shared with a lot of people with no contract. I just believe that people are individually responsible and that actions have consequences not because that's "justice" but because somebody out there enforces the rules. The rules are only important because they are enforced.

In otherwords. If Wiiztec is at peace with any possible backlash then he can do whatever.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

actually now I'm just kind of sad because everything is going to hell in a handbasket, wiiztec is going rogue and causing inter-pmdt fighting, everyone's clamoring for the codes of unfinished characters like they own them, and everyone is mad at everyone else

while at one point I was excited for lyn and knuckles that excitement dimmed when I realized the only reason I wanted them was to see what people would do with them and to see what they were capable of in the metagame. now that they're never going to be released as full characters there won't be any way that will happen because they're never going to be "legit"

and I fear that the final official version of pm, the only one that we can reliably build a metagame off of, is going to be forgotten about in the clamor of not-so-serious mods such as pm legacy and some post-pmdt leaked dev builds

I just want a competitive smash game goddamnit I don't want alts, skins, or recolors, all I need is a functioning build and a bunch of people playing it, and the fascination with the dev builds only hurts pm's actual competitive future

I wasn't sad last night, I was mostly hopeful and warily optimistic about pm's chances but now it's just devolved into anarchy and I'm sad

my stance on the issue is that everyone involved is being an asshole and it makes me sad

 

[Deleted member]

The difference here being that PMDT's work was not just ideas, but literal work and product which they didn't want shared.

Still ideas dude.

Watch the documentary, work or not, everything is a remix. You can't claim it as property since it's built on the shoulders of someone else's hard work ("property").

Only reason copyright exists (or why it was meant to exist in the first place), was to promote creativity by preventing others from blatantly copy-pasting to make a profit.

You can't claim ideas as property, it's that simple. It's not yours, it doesn't belong to you. You're simply taking from and contributing to the ever-evolving gene pool of information.

 

[MechWarriorNY]

What I'm telling you is that upholding people to a standard is something that's never going to end well...

I think you're not giving people enough credit, because more often than not, people successfully keep to ideals that they have chosen or are expected to tout.

 

[Exodo]

You don't deserve an explanation

Well i think we all deserve and explanations, i dont know you but i was hoping for soooo ****ing long to get my hands on the new supposed patch they where gonna release and hyped so much, so i think i do deserve an explanation i dont care if you think my approach is the correct one afterall it is mine only so dont come with this bull**** like if i where doing something wrong

 

[Jaedrik]

Lizalfos here's a "rule" for you to "enforce" ( ° ͜ʖ͡°)╭∩╮

 

[Deleted member]

Unless Wiiztec was contractually obligated to not copy / distribute said product, then he didn't give up his rights to do said things.
I saved this post to a docu I have on my computer called "top posts" hope you don't mind

If you liked that, you'll love this pick up guy's hour-long rant on the media and that same topic

https://youtu.be/CEsr6XoACHs

 

[Jaedrik]

Well i think we all deserve and explanations

Like I think you're an idiot or something like that but you right. It's more noble to explain things once someone is engaged rather than just leave it at whatever and be like "you don't deserve a refutation / explanation."


More on that IP stuff, especially to @ManlySpirit and his talk about the gene pool of information:
I just got a book by Matt Ridley, memeber of the House of Lords called "The Evolution Of Everything: How New Ideas Emerge"

Did y'all know that 23 people can be credited with the invention of some form of incandescent bulb before Edison?
Or that two people filed for a patent for the telephone on the same day?
Or that Leibniz developed calculus completely independently from Newton?
The lists go on and on.

 

[Ramz289]

Somebody hold me.

;_;

 

[Smooth Criminal]

actually now I'm just kind of sad because everything is going to hell in a handbasket, wiiztec is going rogue and causing inter-pmdt fighting, everyone's clamoring for the codes of unfinished characters like they own them, and everyone is mad at everyone else

while at one point I was excited for lyn and knuckles that excitement dimmed when I realized the only reason I wanted them was to see what people would do with them and to see what they were capable of in the metagame. now that they're never going to be released as full characters there won't be any way that will happen because they're never going to be "legit"

and I fear that the final official version of pm, the only one that we can reliably build a metagame off of, is going to be forgotten about in the clamor of not-so-serious mods such as pm legacy and some post-pmdt leaked dev builds

I just want a competitive smash game goddamnit I don't want alts, skins, or recolors, all I need is a functioning build and a bunch of people playing it, and the fascination with the dev builds only hurts pm's actual competitive future

I wasn't sad last night, I was mostly hopeful and warily optimistic about pm's chances but now it's just devolved into anarchy and I'm sad

my stance on the issue is that everyone involved is being an ******* and it makes me sad

reblurbing because I mirror this sentiment.

Sure, I agree that we can't really stop the proliferation of these half-baked builds or assets. I'm not gonna decry people that use them for their own ends. But I do feel, however, that it's a bit of a **** move to the PMDT not to give the official 3.6 more limelight, especially considering this current build is as good as it gets/their swansong. Give it a chance at least.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Kurri ★]

Well i think we all deserve and explanations, i dont know you but i was hoping for soooo ****ing long to get my hands on the new supposed patch they where gonna release and hyped so much, so i think i do deserve an explanation i dont care if you think my approach is the correct one afterall it is mine only so dont come with this bull**** like if i where doing something wrong

No matter what you believe, you deserve nothing, zip, nada. Next question please

 

[Jaedrik]

Somebody hold me.

;_;

*Brings you in and hugs you tight*
@Cyndane we need emergency hug triage in the PMS

 

[Deleted member]

I'm loving these btw:

Spoiler

Can't wait to get my hands on this and play it!!

 

[Exodo]

Like I think you're an idiot or something like that but you right. It's more noble to explain things once someone is engaged rather than just leave it at whatever and be like "you don't deserve a refutation / explanation."


More on that IP stuff, especially to @ManlySpirit and his talk about the gene pool of information:
I just got a book by Matt Ridley, memeber of the House of Lords called "The Evolution Of Everything: How New Ideas Emerge"

Did y'all know that 23 people can be credited with the invention of some form of incandescent bulb before Edison?
Or that two people filed for a patent for the telephone on the same day?
Or that Leibniz developed calculus completely independently from Newton?
The lists go on and on.

Why Am i an idiot? For saying what i think? For wanting something? For asking for an explanation/clarification? For being mad and and saying things out of impulse? Yeah i might be an idiot its true im not even sure what im saying right now all i know is that i want a real explanation and atleast get what we where promised if it has NOTHING TO DO WITH LEGAL BULL**** and then i can be in peace

 

[Jaedrik]

Why Am i an idiot? For saying what i think? For wanting something? For asking for an explanation/clarification? For being mad and and saying things out of impulse? Yeah i might be an idiot its true im not even sure what im saying right now all i know is that i want a real explanation and atleast get what we where promised if it has NOTHING TO DO WITH LEGAL BULL**** and then i can be in peace

Woah now man don't take it so personally.
I thought the "or something like that" was enough to indicate I was joking. :D

We all want a real explanation, but we probably won't get one, and that's dumb, yo.