Project M Social Thread Gold

[Jaedrik]

Let me paint you a picture.

We currently are aware that the PMDT did not receive a C&D. But, they did get legal counsel. Based on my understanding of the situation, it makes sense for within this legal counsel to be some sort of need to cease distribution/developer support that could potentially incriminate.

That would heavily imply that the big fear lies in what was actually going on with the dev build and taking the risk to post up characters like Lyn, Knuckles, etc. There is an implication that there's someone getting pissed off that might not necessarily be Nintendo if this direction was taken.

Gearing up like this is actually the best chance they have, especially now that the safeguard, which was withholding things that could potentially blow up in their face if they were found out, has been dropped because people believe they're doing something right.

I've already said in this exact thread that I'm incredibly uncomfortable with the fact that people are going to split the community even further with this kind of approach, but the particular component of lawyering up to begin with is an indication of why nondisclosure is the case.

I see. Thanks.

But I'll maintain that Wiiztec is doing the right thing. He could very well get in trouble too, the fact that people are trying to protect themselves (an admirable thing in itself) doesn't deny the fact that honesty is still a virtue.
If such is the case, the system which punishes people for being honest and open is in the wrong and surely evil.
Furthermore, if it was the case that other character development was under way, it's reasonable to say that stuff (either interpretation of 'that stuff' is applicable), at this point even without Wiiztec, would be used against them regardless of their attempts to hide it.

 

[Rawkobo]

DT should have told people they were getting legal counsel because of things in future builds. now they aren't allowed to say anything and people are rightfully angry because we weren't told

With everything we have, it's amazing people didn't get it, though.

If you have something with such an inevitable future, you can't close things out forever. Based on a lot of the response to this that I've been looking over for nearly 16 hours now seems to suggest you guys would rather this kept going until someone's actual livelihood took a dive all for the sake of transparency.

I mean, if you guys want to start posting your deep, dark secrets and expect zero repercussion, be my guest.

 

[Raccoon Chuck]

IF ITS NOT A C&D WHAT THE HELL IS IT?!?!

Damn, some folks are just rearin' to get an infraction.

Zzuxon , yes. Sami and Issac seem have files within the current leaked build (albeit unfinished).
Granted, unless a group is made specifically made to finish the characters (a new PMDT (a royal mess is more like it), I can't see much hope past novelty for this at the point.

 

[Deleted member]

Are the sami and Isaac files there?
Please tell me they are included.

According to the thread, yes.

Read through the thread, someone posted another torrent with the updated codeset.

Download the files and spread them like wildfire, get this **** out to everyone. Don't let this die.

 

[Jaedrik]

With everything we have, it's amazing people didn't get it, though.

If you have something with such an inevitable future, you can't close things out forever. Based on a lot of the response to this that I've been looking over for nearly 16 hours now seems to suggest you guys would rather this kept going until someone's actual livelihood took a dive all for the sake of transparency.

I mean, if you guys want to start posting your deep, dark secrets and expect zero repercussion, be my guest.

I'd actually rather that. People ought be willing to sacrifice themselves for the sake of truth. I'd like to think I'd do it if I could.
Alas, we are humans, weak and frail, full of cowardice.

 

[Rawkobo]

I see. Thanks.

But I'll maintain that Wiiztec is doing the right thing. He could very well get in trouble too, the fact that people are trying to protect themselves (an admirable thing in itself) doesn't deny the fact that honesty is still a virtue.
If such is the case, the system which punishes people for being honest and open is in the wrong and surely evil.
Furthermore, if it was the case that other character development was under way, it's reasonable to say that stuff (either interpretation of 'that stuff' is applicable), at this point even without Wiiztec, would be used against them regardless of their attempts to hide it.

Which is the whole reason that concealing it makes a bit of a difference and not getting anyone who tries to keep going on this game lit up.

That's why I don't agree with this. I understand that the way things look, it's very shady, and some insults thrown at Wiiz might not exactly be in great taste, but that doesn't mean that what he did isn't remotely close to a problem to some degree. Inevitability aside.

 

[Zzuxon]

According to the thread, yes.

Read through the thread, someone posted another torrent with the updated codeset.

Download the files and spread them like wildfire, get this **** out to everyone. Don't let this die.

I'd love too, regrettably I am currently at school.
Will do it when I get home.

 

[eideeiit]

the system which punishes people for being honest and open is in the wrong and surely evil.

Lately I've been trying to have this mindset of "no event or thing is inherently evil, good or anything, just has attributes that make us perceive them as such".

There are some virtues that are or should be universal for humans, but there are no absolutely universal ones.

Not that I'm trying to argue with you, just a friendly reminder of sorts.

 

[Phan7om]

Guyz what if Nintendo is making Melee HD and contacted PMDT to help them and will announce it in the upcoming smash direct and that is the entirely new venture they said they were taking.

Kappa x infinity

 

[Jaedrik]

Lately I've been trying to have this mindset of "no event or thing is inherently evil, good or anything, just has attributes that make us perceive them as such".

There are some virtues that are or should be universal for humans, but there are no absolutely universal ones.

Not that I'm trying to argue with you, just a friendly reminder of sorts.

Thank you.

But I will maintain there are such things as universal, objective truths and universal, objective morality, thus universal, objective virtues and vices.

 

[Rawkobo]

I'd actually rather that. People ought be willing to sacrifice themselves for the sake of truth. I'd like to think I'd do it if I could.
Alas, we are humans, weak and frail, full of cowardice.

And that's just the thing, isn't it? It's a moral standard we claim to hold to others, but we don't even hold it to ourselves enough to justify it.

If it's such an absolute, then people shouldn't be afraid. But they are afraid.

If you can't uphold your own moral standard that you hold to others, then that's an incredibly closed-minded thing to do and is no better than nondisclosure.

 

[Deleted member]

Bros bros bros bros:

Spoiler

http://boards.4chan.org/v/thread/318648050#p318657958

IT'S LEGIT!!!

 

[GunBuster]

Wizzy is my friend even if he doesn't know it.

Bros bros bros bros:

 

[Jaedrik]

And that's just the thing, isn't it? It's a moral standard we claim to hold to others, but we don't even hold it to ourselves enough to justify it.

If it's such an absolute, then people shouldn't be afraid. But they are afraid.

If you can't uphold your own moral standard that you hold to others, then that's an incredibly closed-minded thing to do and is no better than nondisclosure.

A moral standard, if it be true, is justified in and of itself regardless of our adherence to it.

This does not follow that. The fact that humans can be in error or make any mistakes whatsoever defends absolute standards against the criticism 'if there were absolute standards then we would follow them always and consistently.' No attempt to prove such a criticism is ever even given.

Not at all, we must all acknowledge, if there are universal truths and we know some, that we are likely hypocrites in some sense. This is the essence of virtue: humility. We must constantly strive to improve ourselves.

 

[SuperMii3D]

Yoooooo, can I get a link to these characters please?!

 

[Zzuxon]

Bros bros bros bros:

Spoiler

nope

Is sami there? Is she an alt for Snake?

 

[ilysm]

There is no reason to be upset at the PMDT. They obviously didn't want to stop the project the way they did. And they are now under tremendous pressure, scrutiny, and backlash from the people they have worked tirelessly for for nearly 6 years. All for free mind you.

I'm really saddened that development has ended, especially when we knew there were so many more wonderful things planned. It does hurt. But all we should be doing at this point is thanking PMDT for their hard work and dedication, being understanding of their extremely stressful current position, and hoping for more wonderful things in their next project.

Well said. I'm very disappointed by the animosity I'm seeing towards the dev team. Try to consider the hours spent, the time and thought and care put in, and every single conversation every single dev suffered through trying to humor someone's ridiculous request to...I don't know...give Kirby a pseudo-shine or something. The last thing they deserve is the hatred they've been getting. Moral judgements are easy to toss around. Let's put them aside for now.

 

[Senselessbreak]

Well, at least we got Lyn, Knuckles and Isaac afterall!

 

[Rawkobo]

A moral standard, if it be true, is justified in and of itself regardless of our adherence to it.

This does not follow that. The fact that humans can be in error or make any mistakes whatsoever goes against the view that, 'if there were absolute standards then we would follow them always and consistently.'

Not at all, we must all acknowledge, if there are universal truths, that we are likely hypocrites in some sense. This is the essence of virtue: humility. We must constantly strive for excellence and virtue.

That sounds a lot like this guy I really don't like named Immanuel Kant.

Lemme tell you something about Kant. Kant tells people that they should essentially refuse to trust others because if they are to uphold virtue, then if they commit sin, there is no chance they can put faith in them to conceal it.

It puts fear in the relationships of humanity. This is a Western tradition that places significance on how the individual relates to the world. But then they make some lofty claims that there's some kind of "moral standard" they're upholding from "society." When, in reality, they're reacting to their experience.

The difficulty in having a "moral standard" is claiming that we know what other people think/want. We simply don't. There are common truths. We all suffer. We all know what it means to be happy, because it comes from mending suffering. But we haven't a goddamn clue what that means in regards to "moral standards." That implies there's some kind of relationship, which puts us back into fear-mongering relationships again.

What I'm telling you is that upholding people to a standard is something that's never going to end well, because either you're going to have to back off or they're going to back off, and there ends up being a clear "winner." And nobody wants to be the loser.

But nobody should have to be the loser.

Source on the knowledge? I'm dual majoring in philosophy and math.

 

[Mansta]

>actually spreading an unfinished build around and telling people to use it
smh tbh fam

 

[Jaedrik]

First, I'll insist on the axiomatic truth of the principles of causation and contradiction. We observe them present everywhere and at all times, it's apparent that this is how the world and our intellects fundamentally operate.

Here's the Great Skeptic's Contradiction:

"There are no universal truths, or we can't know them."
This is predicated on the assertion that this claim, a universal truth, can be proven. Yet the claim itself is that such a thing cannot be proven. Therefore, it implicitly contradicts itself and is demonstrated to be false.
Furthermore, no proof is given in the first place. It is merely asserted. To make an exception for this one rule only begs the question further.

 

[Jaedrik]

That sounds a lot like this guy I really don't like named Immanuel Kant.

Lemme tell you something about Kant. Kant tells people that they should essentially refuse to trust others because if they are to uphold virtue, then if they commit sin, there is no chance they can put faith in them to conceal it.

It puts fear in the relationships of humanity. This is a Western tradition that places significance on how the individual relates to the world. But then they make some lofty claims that there's some kind of "moral standard" they're upholding from "society." When, in reality, they're reacting to their experience.

The difficulty in having a "moral standard" is claiming that we know what other people think/want. We simply don't. There are common truths. We all suffer. We all know what it means to be happy, because it comes from mending suffering. But we haven't a goddamn clue what that means in regards to "moral standards." That implies there's some kind of relationship, which puts us back into fear-mongering relationships again.

What I'm telling you is that upholding people to a standard is something that's never going to end well, because either you're going to have to back off or they're going to back off, and there ends up being a clear "winner." And nobody wants to be the loser.

But nobody should have to be the loser.

Source on the knowledge? I'm dual majoring in philosophy and math.

Hey, I don't like Kant either. He's got some serious errors in his works too. My argument isn't his.
I ain't some transcendentalist, man.

 

[Kneato]

I should've explained what I meant by "some."

The whole situation with Wiiztec is that he's the only one being open and transparent about the whole thing (admits his knowledge is lacking since he's been kinda shunned from PMDT) and the other members of the PMDT are saying that they hate him for sharing information that they feel like is their property or their right to determine whether it can be revealed or not. Check r/newPMDT

I've seen it.

And Wiiztec doesn't have the right to share the information. He was removed from PMDT before they announced their end of development. He's sharing things that other people have put hundreds of hours of their lives into. Just because he WAS PMDT doesn't mean any of that is HIS work to share.

People assume we know the reasons PMDT stopped developing. We don't. And because we don't understand the whole picture, we don't know what plans PMDT may have had. And doing what wiiztec did could have potentially **** all over those plans.

 

[Z25]

So how do I get the files to work? I have the codeset and the torrent, do I just add them into my current pm file?

 

[Rawkobo]

First, I'll insist on the axiomatic truth of the principles of causation and contradiction. We observe them present everywhere and at all times, it's apparent that this is how the world and our intellects fundamentally operate.

Here's the Great Skeptic's Contradiction:

"There are no universal truths, or we can't know them."
This is predicated on the assertion that this claim, a universal truth, can be proven. Yet the claim itself is that such a thing cannot be proven. Therefore, it implicitly contradicts itself and is demonstrated to be false.
Furthermore, no proof is given in the first place. It is merely asserted. To make an exception for this one rule only begs the question further.

Correct. It's a thought experiment.

See, that's the thing. Thought experiments don't really require definitive proof, because of what it would mean to be able to prove it. Say it was possible for us to say that there is a moral standard for honesty. When did it begin? How was it universally decided? Who upholds it? Is it actually held by the majority?

Answers to these questions, especially that last one, require an impossible level of documentation of every human's development, including those that existed before the idea was perhaps conceived. With that considered, then yes, the result is that it is a contradiction for that to be possible, and thus untrue.

 

[Unpluggedcontroller]

GUYS GUYS GUYS!!!!

What IF

This month's Ninty Direct

Is NINTENDO announncing

THAT THEY KILLED PM?

*gasp* Kappa Kappa Kappa

 

[Rawkobo]

Hey, I don't like Kant either. He's got some serious errors in his works too. My argument isn't his.
I ain't some transcendentalist, man.

Strange. That sure was some perspective into transcendentalist thought you posted there.

 

[Deleted member]

Is sami there? Is she an alt for Snake?

Alt for Snake, she's the least finished, but you can find videos for her and Isaac on YT.

Isaac is around 30% done.

Lyn and Knux were practically ready to go tho.

Source code was leaked too.

So how do I get the files to work? I have the codeset and the torrent, do I just add them into my current pm file?

Check the thread, idk.

I'm afk atm, I'm just spreading it so I can have access to it for when I get a new comp.

 

[Jaedrik]

Correct. It's a thought experiment.

See, that's the thing. Thought experiments don't really require definitive proof, because of what it would mean to be able to prove it. Say it was possible for us to say that there is a moral standard for honesty. When did it begin? How was it universally decided? Who upholds it? Is it actually held by the majority?

Answers to these questions, especially that last one, require an impossible level of documentation of every human's development, including those that existed before the idea was perhaps conceived. With that considered, then yes, the result is that it is a contradiction for that to be possible, and thus untrue.

Thought experiments may constitute proof in and of themselves. We may know, absolutely, when an experiment is performed in error and therefore which experiments are wrong in their base rather than their conclusions. The last question is false since it assumes that the majority would need to hold it to be true, yet if something is universal then by that very definition it exists regardless of our perceptions.

I've seen it.

And Wiiztec doesn't have the right to share the information. He was removed from PMDT before they announced their end of development. He's sharing things that other people have put hundreds of hours of their lives into. Just because he WAS PMDT doesn't mean any of that is HIS work to share.

People assume we know the reasons PMDT stopped developing. We don't. And because we don't understand the whole picture, we don't know what plans PMDT may have had. And doing what wiiztec did could have potentially **** all over those plans.

Why doesn't he have the right? Please let us define property rights. I'd like you to start, but I'll say this:
I'd maintain that, since he possesses the knowledge within his mind, he has the sovereign right to use that knowledge, being his because that knowledge is in his mind, however he pleases, as it infringes no rights of others and is his supreme right to do so. Others have the right to be mad at him, but their reasons may not be justified.

Strange. That sure was some perspective into transcendentalist thought you posted there.

One of my objections to Kant is this:
"... he made a false start when he assumed in his criticism of speculative reason that whatever is universal and necessary in our knowledge must come from the mind itself, and not from the world of reality outside us."

All knowledge has its start in sense-knowledge, therefore in some sense is a posteriori.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

I sure hope nobody actually tries to legalize the knuckles build

that's not gonna happen/end well

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Does Lyn have alt colours based off other FE female Lords?

 

[Jaedrik]

I sure hope nobody actually tries to legalize the knuckles build

that's not gonna happen/end well

༼ ᓄºل͟º ༽ᓄ LEGALIZE DANK KNUCKLES ༼ ᓄºل͟º ༽ᓄ

 

[Deleted member]

>actually spreading an unfinished build around and telling people to use it
smh tbh fam

>trying to greentext outside of 4chan

Anyway, uhhh yeah. I'd like it if talented hackers got ahold of the dev kit to finish their work.

 

[Zarkdion]

I don't know what to say regarding the leak. Everything's happening so fast rn. It's really unsettling to see former friends turn on each other, developers hating each other, players hating developers, and now we have a PM build to rival the current 3.6, which I am sure will cause a split in the community.

idk fam, things aint looking good.

 

[standardtoaster]

I really hope that I can pass my calc exam and calc final exam. With all of this going on, I can't even focus properly. I am very ashamed of how a lot of users are acting although I can't say I wouldn't do something like that if I was on the other side. I'm just very sad and depressed right now but I'll make it through this all somehow.

 

[Z25]

Alt for Snake, she's the least finished, but you can find videos for her and Isaac on YT.

Isaac is around 30% done.

Lyn and Knux were practically ready to go tho.

Source code was leaked too.


Check the thread, idk.

I'm afk atm, I'm just spreading it so I can have access to it for when I get a new comp.

Hm alright, I'll try to figure it out.

 

[Jaedrik]

I really hope that I can pass my calc exam and calc final exam. With all of this going on, I can't even focus properly. I am very ashamed of how a lot of users are acting although I can't say I wouldn't do something like that if I was on the other side. I'm just very sad and depressed right now but I'll make it through this all somehow.

⋋|།'͡ᴼ╭͜ʖ╮͡ᴼ'།|⋌ There is no use being upset at that which you cannot control. Therefore, be at peace. ⋋|།'͡ᴼ╭͜ʖ╮͡ᴼ'།|⋌

Glad to see that last line especially! Fight ON!~

 

[Kneato]

Thought experiments may constitute proof in and of themselves. We may know, absolutely, when an experiment is performed in error and therefore which experiments are wrong in their base rather than their conclusions. The last question is false since it assumes that the majority would need to hold it to be true, yet if something is universal then by that very definition it exists regardless of our perceptions.
Why doesn't he have the right? Please let us define property rights. I'd like you to start, but I'll say this:
I'd maintain that, since he possesses the knowledge within his mind, he has the sovereign right to use that knowledge, being his because that knowledge is in his mind, however he pleases, as it infringes no rights of others and is his supreme right to do so. Others have the right to be mad at him, but their reasons may not be justified.
One of my objections to Kant is this:
"... he made a false start when he assumed in his criticism of speculative reason that whatever is universal and necessary in our knowledge must come from the mind itself, and not from the world of reality outside us."

All knowledge has its start in sense-knowledge, therefore in some sense is a posteriori.

Holy **** you might have mastered the art of sounding pretentious.

Lets make a metaphor out of this shall we.

PMDT is a group of artists. They are painting art in a studio that Wiiztec helped build. Wiiztec has access to said studio and sometimes paints alongside the other artists. One day he decides to take pictures of a bunch of half finished paintings that others were working on and share them online.

It doesn't matter what PMDT was going to do with their work.

It doesn't matter if PMDT was ever even going to release the work.

The PM community was in no way entitled to future development of PM (PMDT's art) and just because it makes people or Wiiztec bitter doesn't mean he was justified in what almost amounts to stealing and sharing other peoples' hard work.

So to say it in your words, his IS infringing on their intellectual property rights. No they don't own the likeness of the characters or game they are working on, but they DO individually own their own work and changes they made to the project. If Wiiztec strictly leaked things that he was the sole author of, fine. But he's leaked other PMDT member's work too.

 

[Rawkobo]

Holy **** you might have mastered the art of sounding pretentious.

Lets make a metaphor out of this shall we.

PMDT is a group of artists. They are painting art in a studio that Wiiztec helped build. Wiiztec has access to said studio and sometimes paints alongside the other artists. One day he decides to take pictures of a bunch of half finished paintings that others were working on and share them online.

It doesn't matter what PMDT was going to do with their work.

It doesn't matter if PMDT was ever even going to release the work.

The PM community was in no way entitled to future development of PM (PMDT's art) and just because it makes people or Wiiztec bitter doesn't mean he was justified in what almost amounts to stealing and sharing other peoples' hard work.

The only thing that makes this backfire in their face is if someone said "Well, why'd this get developed, then?"

But yes, this is a huge part of my problem with this entire venture. Thank you for this emphasis.

 

[Exodo]

Well we are ashamed how you pmdt hyped for an update and then suddenly disbanded without a proper explanation or without saying something like: "we are sorry, here is our final gift, all things we had prepared: project m v3.65? Aka final"