Project M Social Thread Gold

[Bazkip]

smash community bans items and stage hazards

complains that people can stall

I don't see how stage hazards reduce stalling.

In fact they can do the exact opposite.

 

[MechWarriorNY]

tfw your dad loves you and you spend an hour talking to him about life

tfw you wake up having a pretty major panic attack and last night you said that you would help your dad with some yard work and he mistakes the panic attack for being lazy and beats you with a shoe until your panic attack has developed into something that looks frighteningly similar to a seizure which makes him panic and call an ambulance. then after all that he makes you do all the work by yourself as punishment for what you have done. and its 107 degrees outside.
how have yalls days been?

I saw red by the middle of the third line of that paragraph. Please go see a social worker, because it's their job to do things about stuff like that.

you know what my favorite part about this tweet is? the part where if you read into what scar says in reply, it's basically smash's equivalent of "not all men *tips fedora*"

The thing about that is that he's objectively correct to say so. Most Smashers/gamers/many humans in general are not at all ready for the kind of responsibility involved with representing a company in the way that being sponsored involves. Most folks just take having extra letters in front of their tag like that to mean they can coast along as always/go to tournaments all-expenses paid.
...That is NOT how it works, but leave it to the pre-teens, teenagers(who have the excuse of naivety), and young adults(who have no excuse whatsoever) who comprise this community to be ignorant to the ways of things.

 

[Rawkobo]

I don't see how stage hazards reduce stalling.

In fact they can do the exact opposite.

stalling in the current ruleset comes down more to player decisions for the sake of safety rather than hazards and items which actually caused such things

that may or may not have been part of bleck's implication idk

 

[Soft Serve]

The booing was stupid. It was also mostly not smashers booing, a lot of fgc heads that didn't want to watch any more smash at all hated it. It was lame af but it's part of the game.

I didn't like it because hbox doesn't even do it right timing wise and jump placement wise, and just constantly taking free dmg for it. It has never helped hbox when he wasn't already winning neutral and he has consistently done worse in sets when he goes for it. He does really well when he actually plays neutral too which is what bothers me as its basically saying he doesn't want to play the game. Expecially because most of the hard laser camping (not just sh/fh back laser dash shield stop back in, which was the main core of the laser game from both armada and mango) only started once hbox commuted to ledge stalling. It's just non interactive and all the mid level puffs have been following in suit. It actively encorages degenerate game play. You don't see top fox mains actively promoting doing nothing but run and gun 100% of the time.

The booing was completely uncalled for, but the way hbox played served no purpose to benefit him other than throwing off the opponent, which doesn't do anything at top level play which you can see in how mango almost brought it back on yoshis after the W SD'SD's BECAUSE Hbox went to the ledge. It wasn't until hbox started fighting for positioning and playing neutral did he take momentum back.

Also he doesn't even time people out right, if you're going for it you have to commit to it from the get go, stand on respawn platform as long as possible lol.


Mango throwing his metal was anything but disrespectful, he was upset with how he played and didn't feel like he deserved it, so he threw it out to the fans with a smile on his face. It's not like he chucked it to the ground immediately.

 

[DrinkingFood]

jesus ****ing christ sethlon calm the **** down

ik prof can be mean sometimes but like, telling someone to die? jesus christ

I need a screenshot, PM it to me if you have to
Seeing sethlon lose his cool would be extremely refreshing

 

[PMS | Tink-er]

The booing was stupid. It was also mostly not smashers booing, a lot of fgc heads that didn't want to watch any more smash at all hated it. It was lame af but it's part of the game.

I didn't like it because hbox doesn't even do it right timing wise and jump placement wise, and just constantly taking free dmg for it. It has never helped hbox when he wasn't already winning neutral and he has consistently done worse in sets when he goes for it. He does really well when he actually plays neutral too which is what bothers me as its basically saying he doesn't want to play the game. Expecially because most of the hard laser camping (not just sh/fh back laser dash shield stop back in, which was the main core of the laser game from both armada and mango) only started once hbox commuted to ledge stalling. It's just non interactive and all the mid level puffs have been following in suit. It actively encorages degenerate game play. You don't see top fox mains actively promoting doing nothing but run and gun 100% of the time.

The booing was completely uncalled for, but the way hbox played served no purpose to benefit him other than throwing off the opponent, which doesn't do anything at top level play which you can see in how mango almost brought it back on yoshis after the W SD'SD's BECAUSE Hbox went to the ledge. It wasn't until hbox started fighting for positioning and playing neutral did he take momentum back.

Also he doesn't even time people out right, if you're going for it you have to commit to it from the get go, stand on respawn platform as long as possible lol.


Mango throwing his metal was anything but disrespectful, he was upset with how he played and didn't feel like he deserved it, so he threw it out to the fans with a smile on his face. It's not like he chucked it to the ground immediately.

yeah, hbox needs to work on his camping.

but

IDGAF FLORIDA FLORIDA FLORIDA

I need a screenshot, PM it to me if you have to
Seeing sethlon lose his cool would be extremely refreshing

i doubt anyone screenshotted it

but I nuked tf out of that comment chain ROFL

 

[Bleck]

I don't see how stage hazards reduce stalling.

In fact they can do the exact opposite.
video]

that's a very specific example of something that's preeeetty difficult to do

but yeah, the thing is that the community long ago decided to limit the game to a couple of stages where stalling is really easy and now they complain about stalling

like, is hungrybox really good at stalling on battlefield with jiggs or whatever? pick icicle mountain and see how well he does

is fox running around camping you with lasers? pick great bay and watch him try to swim, or pick mute city and throw him into cars

like I'm not saying all stages are entirely without flaw, but it seems to me like a lot of problems with the metagame come from decisions about rulesets that are supposedly supposed to make the game better

and I mean I've been talking about this with a friend since I first posted about this and the first thing they said was a lot of Melee stages are banned because Fox is too good on them, and I think it's funny that we'll ban 80% of the stages before we ban Fox

 

[MechWarriorNY]

Git gud at not caring about crowds.
...Both sides are right, though.

 

[Soft Serve]

I know it was just an example bleck, but you can't catch a fox in great bay. You can't cover the under stage side b and keep him from lasering above stage at the same time.


Stages were banned because they are both awful and walls give infinites to fox and hurts like everone except in some no tumble wall combos. 80% of melee's stage list is horrible. On any stage fox can camp a character out and be non interactive, its just as easy for jiggs or falcon to do it. Falcon just needs room/top platform, jiggs just needs air space or a ledge, etc.


Basically melee is a **** game that only gets held up by amazing depth of game play, an okay ruleset, and gentlemen agreements to not ruin the game.

 

[Rawkobo]

that's a very specific example of something that's preeeetty difficult to do

but yeah, the thing is that the community long ago decided to limit the game to a couple of stages where stalling is really easy and now they complain about stalling

like, is hungrybox really good at stalling on battlefield with jiggs or whatever? pick icicle mountain and see how well he does

is fox running around camping you with lasers? pick great bay and watch him try to swim, or pick mute city and throw him into cars

like I'm not saying all stages are entirely without flaw, but it seems to me like a lot of problems with the metagame come from decisions about rulesets that are supposedly supposed to make the game better

and I mean I've been talking about this with a friend since I first posted about this and the first thing they said was a lot of Melee stages are banned because Fox is too good on them, and I think it's funny that we'll ban 80% of the stages before we ban Fox

i miss the mute city days, those were hype

on a slightly related tangent, i'm thinking about making an extensive post about this in the stage thread, but i wanted to get some kind of feedback before i did so: why is it that we're so bothered by stages in pm when we have unique designs that avoid traits such as hazards and walk-offs that we hate, but we still ban them or say they're terrible stages for a stagelist and instead pick the same kind of platform layout several times over?

 

[Bleck]

I know it was just an example bleck, but you can't catch a fox in great bay. You can't cover the under stage side b and keep him from lasering above stage at the same time.

you're right - Fox is kind of ridiculous!

Stages were banned because they are both awful and walls give infinites to fox and hurts like everone except in some no tumble wall combos. 80% of melee's stage list is horrible. On any stage fox can camp a character out and be non interactive, its just as easy for jiggs or falcon to do it. Falcon just needs room/top platform, jiggs just needs air space or a ledge, etc.

if only there were some way to randomly fill all stages with something that prevents people from abusing any overwhelming advantages they may possess

 

[Soft Serve]

Yeah no. You're not going to get anywhere with this argument bleck. I agree that melee is pretty flawed and fox is dumb af, but expanding the stage list and putting items (any item set at all, because capsules explode and take rediculously early stocks) does nothing to make things better and instead just throws more chaos and bad things into the mix.

 

[Narelex]

I think I stirred the proverbial hornets nest a tad with my latest post on Reddit guys.

Hopefully this ends better then disturbing the real life equivalent. I was a bit sick and tired of waiting for someone else to take action and decided to take action myself. Hopefully at least some good discussion will come of it.

I talked about Fox's design in PM guys. gasp

Hopefully I will have retained my limbs by the end of tomorrow.

 

[Mansta]

But Soft, items are super good and balanced. See: hammer, heart container, bob-om.

 

[Kurri ★]

I think I stirred the proverbial hornets nest a tad with my latest post on Reddit guys.

Hopefully this ends better then disturbing the real life equivalent. I was a bit sick and tired of waiting for someone else to take action and decided to take action myself. Hopefully at least some good discussion will come of it.

I talked about Fox in PM guys. gasp

Hopefully I will have retained my limbs by the end of tomorrow.

Link?

 

[Narelex]

Link?

https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBPM/comments/3dwuvp/my_thoughts_on_the_problems_with_foxs_design_in/

It links back to the Smashboards tier list thread where I originally posted my thoughts.

 

[Bleck]

Yeah no. You're not going to get anywhere with this argument bleck. I agree that melee is pretty flawed and fox is dumb af, but expanding the stage list and putting items (any item set at all, because capsules explode and take rediculously early stocks) does nothing to make things better and instead just throws more chaos and bad things into the mix.

I'm not necessarily saying those are the things that would solve these issues - I'm just fond of pointing out that the game is already designed, albeit not perfectly, around the existence of those problems.

In essence my point is that stage hazards exist to prevent camping/stalling in the first place, and items exist to fill the gaps in character strength that the way stages are built may impose - later games in the series made items way more ridiculous because they knew that people were turning them off anyways, so they might as well make them silly, but the large majority of items in Melee are fairly reasonable character buffs (battering items - ever notice how all the top tier characters are pretty crappy at using them?), pretty easy to deal with (the hammer makes you significantly less mobile, the home-run bat has a huge wind-up that you're only going to land in a 1v1 with an incredible read or combo, etc.) or actually just help low-tier characters more than they do high ones (heart containers are more valuable to you the longer you're expected to survive, i.e heavier characters).

Again, by no means perfect - but Sakurai's not a dumb guy, the items weren't just thrown in there mindlessly.

 

[Narelex]

I'm not necessarily saying those are the things that would solve these issues - I'm just fond of pointing out that the game is already designed, albeit not perfectly, around the existence of those problems.

In essence my point is that stage hazards exist to prevent camping/stalling in the first place, and items exist to fill the gaps in character strength that the way stages are built may impose - later games in the series made items way more ridiculous because they knew that people were turning them off anyways, so they might as well make them silly, but the large majority of items in Melee are fairly reasonable character buffs (battering items - ever notice how all the top tier characters are pretty crappy at using them?), pretty easy to deal with (the hammer makes you significantly less mobile, the home-run bat has a huge wind-up that you're only going to land in a 1v1 with an incredible read or combo) or actually just help low-tier characters more than they do high ones (heart containers are more valuable to you the longer you're expected to survive, i.e heavier characters).

Again, by no means perfect - but Sakurai's not a dumb guy, the items weren't just thrown in there mindlessly.

Also worth noting that they were not trying to make it balanced around no items. It was supposed to be a party game where you duked it out with your favourite characters and had fun. How were they supposed to know what we'd do with it?

It instead spawned one of the longest running competitive fighting games in history. Weird when thinking about it in hindsight.

 

[MechWarriorNY]

@ Bleck In my experience, this is the generally the point in arguments where you always end up saying things that don't need saying and piss people off for no real purpose other for the sake of being an even bigger contrary, smarmy, little prick for it's own sake than you usually are(if you do that for a reason other than that, we're all ears) when it could've been precluded. It doesn't help that this is a topic people get VERY worked up about, or that you are and just about always are the heel here.

I know that it would be oh so very difficult for you to hold your tongue seeing as how tact is basically a word that is not part of your vocabulary, but please don't be that guy more than you already have.(and you have been that guy a lot)

Quit while you are ahead, for once.

 

[Bleck]

I don't even know what I'm arguing about here that could possibly piss anybody off. All I'm saying is that the game wasn't designed accidentally; that it's reasonable to assume that there are items and stage hazards for a reason. You can retroactively extrapolate the intent from the changes to mechanics in Smash 4, especially the ones that are focused on competitive play.

 

[Rawkobo]

a lot of changes to characters in smash 4 atm (and likewise pm as we're probably all aware) have to do with the nature of how the game was actually designed

unlike brawl, where apparently sakurai felt the need to hinder the competitive nature of the game, he actually had intentions of making smash 4 more like a traditional fighter, and while he hasn't given out patch notes like pm has, he's still made changes to competitively viable characters, i'm assuming from a combination of for glory results and research of tournament sets. item design supplements that this game is supposed to be played with items off.

melee didn't have that to follow off of 14 years ago, it had smash 64. one might be led to believe that there is something being missed out on here, even with the technical things we've learned over a long period of time and determining how to make this game "more fair" like a traditional fighter (even though street fighter, marvel and most other fg's have walls/corners you can capitalize on forcing your opponent into).

i'm not saying, and i'm wagering bleck isn't necssarily saying, that that's the correct move for melee. they can do whatever the **** they actually want. it's just interesting to think about and talk about without suddenly flaring up at one another.

 

[Kurri ★]

Just wondering. How is Smash 4 closer to a traditional fighter than PM and Melee are? I've seen this said multiple times, but I've never really understood why.

 

[MechWarriorNY]

-it's just interesting to think about and talk about without suddenly flaring up at one another.

Lol at thinking that's not an inevitability in this community.
/horrendous bias

 

[Bleck]

Just wondering. How is Smash 4 closer to a traditional fighter than PM and Melee are? I've seen this said multiple times, but I've never really understood why.

I can and will make a post about why I think that after work tomorrow

 

[Grey Belnades]

Because it is decendent of Brawl, therefore my pick for FG status. By the way, if you find yourself at a diner, don't go with the "Sinfully Delight" Oreo pancakes.

 

[Rawkobo]

Just wondering. How is Smash 4 closer to a traditional fighter than PM and Melee are? I've seen this said multiple times, but I've never really understood why.

the reason i argued it was had to do with the fact that it's being balanced around competitive play, aka the same thing pm is. i guess the other argument (?) is that blocking is not just valuable, but extremely valuable, something that can be said of street fighter for certain. you have to be ready to watch for/play around crossup opportunities, grabs, etc.

although melee's schtick to me is more of laser camping being like fireball camping: it certainly works but it's boring as all hell to watch

edit: @ MechWarriorNY a man can dream can't he

 

[MechWarriorNY]

Yes, but look at it this way; the American Dream is called, well, a dream for very good reason.

 

[Rawkobo]

Yes, but look at it this way; the American Dream is called, well, a dream for very good reason.

but not all of us are americans

 

[SpiderMad]

Since you can load Melee hacks now using a memory card apparently, they'd go with that for some form of anti-stall before items.

Smash 4 is this amazing game that's better than Melee, we just don't see it

 

[Deleted member]

Smash 4 is okay, but I see a better career in Melee than 4 which is why I chose Melee between the two.

 

[Kurri ★]

Smash 4 is this amazing game that's better than Melee, we just don't see it

Why does this feel like sarcasm?

 

[Sir Bubbles]

Why does this feel like sarcasm?

Because we all know deep down that it isn't true.

Not even close.

 

[Deleted member]

It's hard to convey sarcasm over text communication

 

[Kurri ★]

Because we all know deep down that it isn't true.

Not even close.

I'm trying to think of something snarky, but everything I think of would only escalate into spiraling madness. So instead, I'll leave you with, "that's an okay opinion"

 

[Rawkobo]

I'm trying to think of something snarky, but everything I think of would only escalate into spiraling madness. So instead, I'll leave you with, "that's an okay opinion"

people in other threads would beg to differ

/s

 

[MechWarriorNY]

I'm trying to think of something snarky, but everything I think of would only escalate into spiraling madness. So instead, I'll leave you with, "that's an okay opinion"

You say that, but we all know you're at your keyboard like

 

[Kurri ★]

That image is ****ing perfect~

Edit: HOLY CRAP THE SOURCE!

 

[Rawkobo]

That image is ****ing perfect~

forever my interpretation of you

 

[DrinkingFood]

It has a disconcertingly large amount of effort/detail put into the eyes and mouth compared to everything else

 

[MechWarriorNY]

@ DrinkingFood That's just ED/Goshiki Suzu's art-style, though I get where you're coming from.

HOLY CRAP THE SOURCE!

...Is pretty lewd, yes. Atago pls