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Project M Recommended Ruleset

4tlas

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Someone mentioned this on the TO group:

(Paraphrasing) "This group will get a ton more done than the smashboards ruleset thread."

I realized, unfortunately, he's probably right. The FB group ultimately will be the driving force in enacting ruleset changes across NA tournaments. The only problem is, FB is an absolutely terrible forum for organized discussion/debate. As the group already proved, having an orderly discussion about a rule's up and downsides seems nearly impossible. While over here, it may take a while, but real progress is made on debating rule merits. People's opinions can change here. They can't on Facebook.

I think that makes it super important that everyone here who is in the group voice their opinions there. It would be much more convenient if these TO's actually took the time and effort to give a this thread a read but I doubt that will happen. So we need to take the discussion to them.
The thing is I don't really WANT to argue with them. Its a gross format. A forum implies debate, so people come in here if they are of that mind, but on Facebook everyone is sharing their opinion and only reading things that amuse them. I already gave a long writeup on Character First and have gotten only 1 person to respond. Last time we did the stagelist discussion I sat at my computer and meticulously debated every single post that went up, and nobody's opinions changed.
 

nimigoha

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I think that the main "target" so to speak is the PMTV streams. I don't want to seem belittling but it's just an honest truth that the streams in PMTV are the most watched. If they start running Nebraska it will get way more publicity and be easier to sway the rest of the TOs towards.

Easier to start with those 7 than go up against every PM TO at once.
 

4tlas

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I think that the main "target" so to speak is the PMTV streams. I don't want to seem belittling but it's just an honest truth that the streams in PMTV are the most watched. If they start running Nebraska it will get way more publicity and be easier to sway the rest of the TOs towards.

Easier to start with those 7 than go up against every PM TO at once.
I agree but as I said I think I'm by far the most interested in the discussion out of that group, and I don't like the list. Soooooooooo...
 

nimigoha

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Ah! That's a shame lol. We'll break you yet.

Are they at all discussing a unified ruleset among themselves or are they pretty much just going to keep running their own local lists. Or is there at least a plan to unify?
 
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4tlas

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Ah! That's a shame lol

Are they at all discussing a unified ruleset among themselves or are they pretty much just going to keep running their own local lists. Or is there at least a plan to unify?
We are worrying about other things at the moment. We briefly touched upon the subject, and I believe everyone said that they would be interested, later. Its not that it couldn't/wouldn't be done, its just that there's no interest at present.
 

nimigoha

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That's good to hear. I know there's a fair bit of stuff going on with you guys behind the scenes so that will be exciting.
 

4tlas

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Pooch seems to be for the NE list. Enough to pitch it to WindyCityPM? Iunno. We'll see.
Pooch IS WindyCityPM. If he likes it, it will happen at some point. Just hope that point is before something else steals his oodles of enthusiasm.
 

4tlas

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After having played some more on Bowsers, I admit that I imagined the platforms to be higher than they are. I still am of the same opinion that they are significantly high to validate the analysis I provided earlier.
 

nimigoha

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So another post about character vs stage first on reddit...

Which got me thinking. The entire concept of a "balanced" stage list hinges on character first.

Because we're trying to set up a system where the winner of the last game can eliminate certain attributes they don't want in the matchup... which is pointless if the CPer is just going to switch characters anyway.

Basically we're trying to make a system where people are banning intelligently, aren't we? Or at least give them the platform to do so (since there will always be "comfort" bans and picks of course).

So if we have a nice balanced list and P1 is like "hmm well he survives off the side and that's my main concern so I'm going to ban Dreamland and FD" and then P2 switches to Ganon and takes you to WL then those bans are completely wasted.

I know I don't really have to convince anyone in here about Character First but it's a thought I hadn't seen discussed.
 

JesteRace

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Then there's the Junebug effect. Ban Battlefield and Bowser's Castle and laugh. Stage first really gives both players the opportunity to screw the other over lol
 

nimigoha

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Anyone know the width of BoC? It's not in SOJ's stage stat page and I don't know how to check it.
 

CORY

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So another post about character vs stage first on reddit...

Which got me thinking. The entire concept of a "balanced" stage list hinges on character first.

Because we're trying to set up a system where the winner of the last game can eliminate certain attributes they don't want in the matchup... which is pointless if the CPer is just going to switch characters anyway.

Basically we're trying to make a system where people are banning intelligently, aren't we? Or at least give them the platform to do so (since there will always be "comfort" bans and picks of course).

So if we have a nice balanced list and P1 is like "hmm well he survives off the side and that's my main concern so I'm going to ban Dreamland and FD" and then P2 switches to Ganon and takes you to WL then those bans are completely wasted.

I know I don't really have to convince anyone in here about Character First but it's a thought I hadn't seen discussed.
yeah, but people think it's so cool and hype to just steal stage counterpicks or some **** like that...
 

nimigoha

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Using the super scientifical method of buffering rolls with Fox, I've deduced that you're right!

But yeah they're like super similar.
 

JesteRace

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And the way I see BC's platforms are like the mirror of PS2. PS2's platforms add small, but easy movement options whereas BC gives more, but harder movement options. PS2's platforms give escape options at low percents, but very little at mid to high. BC's platforms can give escape options too, just not at low percents. They both have their "openness" and their "closedness", they're not just one or the other.
 

RIDLEY is too SMALL

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After having played some more on Bowsers, I admit that I imagined the platforms to be higher than they are. I still am of the same opinion that they are significantly high to validate the analysis I provided earlier.
Bowser's Castle's platforms are pretty much exactly the same height as Dreamland's side platforms, so they have similar utility to Dreamland.
 
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JesteRace

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People really underrate the effect Dreamland's platforms have too. It's more open than say... Battlefield, just by way of being larger, but it's significantly less open than the other large stages. Even if I was Bowser, I'd ban FD/PS2/SV before I got to Dreamland.
 

DMG

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Well I think FD and PS2 are both longer than DL regardless of plats. With 3 bans, SV would be the least important overall for Bowser to remove (unless the MU swayed more due to things like DL boundaries for Bowser? Many terrible MU's for Bowser reside on Neutral or edgeguards, not outright killing power)

Having plats can also change the power of some camping. Timing out Peach on FD may be a laborious process, but doing it on Dreamland or even BF (despite being less "open") could function a hundred times easier because of their platforms. In that sense, some smaller stages with platforms become more open or accessible than a flat stage without vertical layers.
 

JesteRace

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Your explanation is better than mine, but that definitely shows why we shouldn't just be classifying everything as "open" or "cramped" as that depends on matchup and maybe even playstyle. Hence my 3 categories being quasi-flat, heavily-platformed, and "mixed" for the stages that benefit platform players and flatland players.

As for the Bowser example, I figured big and flat were gonna be the worst for him neutral-wise. So what's worse? Medium and flat or large and heavily platformed? Idk I don't play Bowser, it was just an example lol
 
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nimigoha

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I think Medium and flat from experience. He can perfect waveland, if I can use that to traverse DL then it's a better stage than SV for instance.
 

JesteRace

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That's exactly what I figured. Dreamland is always seen as the biggest big stage, but that's just people lumping stage size and blastzones together again. You may live longest on Dreamland, but the stage itself is the smallest of the large stages. Smaller than PS2, the one seen as "medium" lol. I know this isn't news to most people in this thread, it's just funny to me given the stigma of these stages.
 

nimigoha

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My roommate loves the N9 stagelist, especially Bowser's.

1 down, several thousand to go.
 

DMG

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DMG#931
Traveling by platform incurs series of breaks and commitments. I wouldn't underpin the success of trying to win with Bowser on something like that.

Dreamland length wise isn't too crazy but SV is smaller. Being mostly flat or sometimes lacking a platform is overall less of a disadvantage than larger + more expansive with plats.

The smaller and less complicated a stage is, the better for Bowser. Small + cramped plats (Bowser can flow chart a lot of options) > Small (including small FD for most MU's) > Mediumish + cramped plats > Medium (possibly assuming no true medium FD exists) > Large + plats > Large

SV fits that paradigm better than Dreamland. MU's where DL boundaries come into play, or characters that take advantage of flat + lack good platform control would be where DL shines, but it's a bit subjective and probably requires more effort from Bowser to manage the stage
 
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nimigoha

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4tlas

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Bowser's Castle's platforms are pretty much exactly the same height as Dreamland's side platforms, so they have similar utility to Dreamland.
I agree, and that's consistent with what I've been saying. Its possible that there is disagreement about what that is though.
 

JesteRace

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Traveling by platform incurs series of breaks and commitments. I wouldn't underpin the success of trying to win with Bowser on something like that.

Dreamland length wise isn't too crazy but SV is smaller. Being mostly flat or sometimes lacking a platform is overall less of a disadvantage than larger + more expansive with plats.

The smaller and less complicated a stage is, the better for Bowser. Small + cramped plats (Bowser can flow chart a lot of options) > Small (including small FD for most MU's) > Mediumish + cramped plats > Medium (possibly assuming no true medium FD exists) > Large + plats > Large

SV fits that paradigm better than Dreamland. MU's where DL boundaries come into play, or characters that take advantage of flat + lack good platform control would be where DL shines, but it's a bit subjective and probably requires more effort from Bowser to manage the stage
Well, I understand that, but a lot of Bowser's matchups DO come down to Bowser being hot garbage on most flat stages, including SV. I never said I would pick Dreamland as Bowser, as it still probably favors the opponent. But I'd be okay with playing on it, cause I could still do more than I can on FD/PS2 and even SV.

Oracle had a good explanation of the stagelist on the FB page that has put me firmly in favor of 9 stages, 2 bans in all sets. If you rank all the stages from most advantageous to least advantageous, you get 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9. Ideally, you would ban 8 and 9. Your opponent would ban 1 and 2. Your CP's would be 3 and 4. Your opponent's would be 6 and 7. 5 would be the game 1 stage. Again, this is considering ideal bans and both players winning on their respective CP's. As you can see, neither side is rewarded too much for losing, cause the further you get into the set, the closer to neutral the choices are, which is good for competition. You also don't run out of stages like I had feared because I'm bad at math.

So plug in Bowser vs. Fox. If I'm Bowser, it probably looks like 1. WL, 2. FoD, 3. BF, 4. GHZ, 5. BC, 6. DL, 7. SV, 8. PS2, 9. FD. I think you can find a lot of matchups where GHZ, BC, and DL are right in the middle given that the stage layouts themselves are the least polarizing. GHZ is small, but flat. DL is large, but tri-plat. BC is the closest to a true-medium we have outside of matchups where blastzones matter.
 
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nimigoha

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That's one of the reasons I like the stagelist so much. It's balanced but it makes every stage important; it's either being banned by someone or it's going to be played by someone in a best of 5 that goes to game 5.

Other lists have stages that neither person really cares about. I don't think you're going to go there so I won't ban it, and you don't want to go there.

This is of course assuming there's no character switch, where bans would change.

I'd be fine with 9 stages, 2 bans, and DSR regardless of game count.
 
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you dont really want 9 stages in a best of 5 with two bans because its the absolute minimum and both players are forced to play whatever stages arent banned assuming you go to game 5. this is why i went to 10, and also because we could fit 10 into the menu in a way that was readily apparent to new players. you could make an argument for 11 or 12 stages imo, but after that you start adding jank or redundant CP reasoning that adds skew to the balance of the cast. 9 is just a little too low
 

nimigoha

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The only viable candidate for a 10th stage IMO is Yoshi's Brawl. It's got almost exactly the same dimensions as Smashville.

Personally I don't think there's a problem. Having 2 walled medium and 2 non-walled medium seems nice as well.

I think either is fine but 10 is probably a little better due to the added variety.

I just think that people aren't very open to the stage. Ghosts, slanted edges, slanted middle, Shy Guys, slanted platform... I don't mind the stage myself but it's easy to see where the distaste comes from.
 

JesteRace

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We(Nebraska) have yet to have any problems "forcing people to play what's not banned" thanks to the balance of the list. I see no problem with adding Yoshi's Brawl for people who want that extra option but it's not necessary imo. I do have a problem with adding anything else because it throws off the balance.
 

Kneato

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So another post about character vs stage first on reddit...

Which got me thinking. The entire concept of a "balanced" stage list hinges on character first.

Because we're trying to set up a system where the winner of the last game can eliminate certain attributes they don't want in the matchup... which is pointless if the CPer is just going to switch characters anyway.

Basically we're trying to make a system where people are banning intelligently, aren't we? Or at least give them the platform to do so (since there will always be "comfort" bans and picks of course).

So if we have a nice balanced list and P1 is like "hmm well he survives off the side and that's my main concern so I'm going to ban Dreamland and FD" and then P2 switches to Ganon and takes you to WL then those bans are completely wasted.

I know I don't really have to convince anyone in here about Character First but it's a thought I hadn't seen discussed.
Yea this has been my thought process, and probably many others here too. But when you try to explain that on the FB group, people throw the most bass ackwards logic at you for why stage first is better. Usually boiling down to "harder counterpicks are more hype".


Well, I understand that, but a lot of Bowser's matchups DO come down to Bowser being hot garbage on most flat stages, including SV. I never said I would pick Dreamland as Bowser, as it still probably favors the opponent. But I'd be okay with playing on it, cause I could still do more than I can on FD/PS2 and even SV.

Oracle had a good explanation of the stagelist on the FB page that has put me firmly in favor of 9 stages, 2 bans in all sets. If you rank all the stages from most advantageous to least advantageous, you get 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9. Ideally, you would ban 8 and 9. Your opponent would ban 1 and 2. Your CP's would be 3 and 4. Your opponent's would be 6 and 7. 5 would be the game 1 stage. Again, this is considering ideal bans and both players winning on their respective CP's. As you can see, neither side is rewarded too much for losing, cause the further you get into the set, the closer to neutral the choices are, which is good for competition. You also don't run out of stages like I had feared because I'm bad at math.

So plug in Bowser vs. Fox. If I'm Bowser, it probably looks like 1. WL, 2. FoD, 3. BF, 4. GHZ, 5. BC, 6. DL, 7. SV, 8. PS2, 9. FD. I think you can find a lot of matchups where GHZ, BC, and DL are right in the middle given that the stage layouts themselves are the least polarizing. GHZ is small, but flat. DL is large, but tri-plat. BC is the closest to a true-medium we have outside of matchups where blastzones matter.
The only problem I had with Oracle's explanation is that many people will take that as "Oh, if the characters play on stage 5, that's great because that stage is completely neutral. And playing on stage 4 is slightly in player 1's favor while stage 6 is slightly in player 2's favor" which isn't at all how it works in a ton of matchups.

If you consider Ganon v Fox. Yes, you can theoretically list all the stages from 1 to 9 in terms of amount of advantage, but stages 1 and 2 may be the only ones actually in Ganon's favor while 3 through 9 are in Fox's. In this case, banning to 4, 5, or 6 never actually gives Ganon a favorable counterpick, they are all just different amounts of terrible.
 

JesteRace

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But I agree with him that we shouldn't have rulesets to accommodate bad characters. It sucks that certain characters are only good on 2-3 stages, but that's a character problem, not a ruleset problem. And I would argue going to 1 ban would be even worse for Ganon. He may have a hard time on multiple stages, but not being able to ban both FD and PS2 seems like a guaranteed loss for one game.
 

DMG

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you dont really want 9 stages in a best of 5 with two bans because its the absolute minimum and both players are forced to play whatever stages arent banned assuming you go to game 5. this is why i went to 10, and also because we could fit 10 into the menu in a way that was readily apparent to new players. you could make an argument for 11 or 12 stages imo, but after that you start adding jank or redundant CP reasoning that adds skew to the balance of the cast. 9 is just a little too low
^^^

If people are bent on 9 stages, mod DSR to allow Game 1 starter to be used for Game 5. This won't involve adding any controversial stage, and it still gives room for 2 choices on Game 5.

Changing ban count changes balance for the cast. Take Ganon example: he inherently functions as a different character based on whether he gets 2 bans or just 1. Which makes the idea of reducing ban count, due to Bo5 sets, seem like a lesser solution.

10 stages (if people can agree on 10th stage) > 9 stage 2 ban mod DSR > 9 stage 2 ban > 9 stage + 1 ban Bo5 imo
 
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Strong Badam

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you dont really want 9 stages in a best of 5 with two bans because its the absolute minimum and both players are forced to play whatever stages arent banned assuming you go to game 5. this is why i went to 10, and also because we could fit 10 into the menu in a way that was readily apparent to new players. you could make an argument for 11 or 12 stages imo, but after that you start adding jank or redundant CP reasoning that adds skew to the balance of the cast. 9 is just a little too low
w the final options for stages for a stagelist i think 9 stages is the best list and am fine with going down to 1 ban to make it happen
 

DMG

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If we go to 1 ban, it should be consistent across the set formats (Bo7 and higher MM's would obv have different rules). Changing ban count with set count is not bueno. Characters shouldn't get nerfs or buffs because they managed to reach top 16 (beyond the impact that longer set counts entail on their own)
 
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nimigoha

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Do you guys think that 1 ban is necessary to make N9 work?

I think 2 bans is fine for Bo3, but 2 bans for Bo5 is tight.

What about N9, 2 ban, with MDSR (can't go to the last stage you won on)? MDSR and DSR are exactly the same for Bo3 so it provides a consistent ruleset while also opening up the stage options a little in a Bo5, while still giving the previous winner a little more ban power.
 
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