Project M 'fair' starter list

[RIDLEY is too SMALL]

The ceiling thing is valid. The "triangle platform" one is a little difficult to avoid.

Your stage list has a similar problem with the "Peach" test.

Peach would have Dreamland struck against her immediately, followed likely by Distant Planet. The rest of the stages, regardless of character opponent (sans Jiggs) will likely be in stark favor against her.

There really is no "totally correct" solution, it's mostly a hole in the current stage selection.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't floaties like the option of going to a stage like Norfair 3.5 or Skyworld that they can survive on forever because of the huge blast zone distances and ceiling heights? (I'm assuming, based on observation, that Norfair 3.5 has really far blast zones and a really high ceiling because I couldn't find any data on it.)

Therefore, if Peach and another character were stage striking for match 1, the opponent would strike Dreamland, Distant Planet, Norfair 3.5, + 1 other, but Peach would be able to get rid of 4 of the remaining stages that she would rather avoid and would most likely end up on a stage that is pretty fair for the matchup since it would essentially be the non-floaty stage that Peach wants for the matchup. The addition of Skyworld as a counterpick pretty much guarantees that Peach would have a decent counterpick to go to because the opponent can't ban Dreamland, Distant Planet, Skyworld, and Norfair 3.5. All of this is assuming, of course, that Peach is good on Skyworld and Norfair 3.5. Do you think this is accurate? (Dracula's Castle could also replace one of those stages to give another solid option for floaties).

And you're right about the current stage selection making it difficult to create a perfectly balanced stagelist. Out of the 18+ stages that could be legal, only 4 of them can at all be defined as small stages, and there is a significantly larger number of mid-sized and long stages.

 

[shapular]

Overswarm, I'd like to get your opinion on two things. First, what do you think about TKbreezy's new stage list? If you haven't seen it, it's here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cdxkr4TYKqc It seems to have the same problem of being biased towards medium stages. I'm not a fan of it and page 2 will never be agreed to in a high-stakes set.

Second, what do you think about stage bans? I always thought it was weird that PM usually has more than one stage ban since no Smash game has ever been that way, even with equal amounts of stages. I think it also hurts some characters more than others since some characters may be able to cover all their worst stages while others can't.

 

[Overswarm]

TKbreezy's stagelist is garbage.

PM should have one ban. All smash games should have one ban.

Bans are meant primarily for preference -- you ban a stage because you'd rather play on Dreamland than Skyworld, and you know those are your opponent's two counterpicks. They have a secondary effect to neutralize "that one stage" for your character, like FoD was for Captain Falcon in Melee, that otherwise isn't an issue for everyone else.

If a ban is required for a balance reason then something is up with the character or the stage list.

You don't have a right to start on a stage that is good for you on your opponent's CP.

 

[RIDLEY is too SMALL]

Now that I think about it, having only a single ban would make it much easier to balance the stagelist...

 

[DrinkingFood]

Only one ban means you really need to really limit the overall counterpick list or you'll end up with a high concentration of matchups where the counterpicking character has a severe level of advantage on more than one stage. 9 is really pushing the limit, and personally I like 8 more. But in that case you would either need 5 or 7 starters (5 is the more fair of these given that the picking order is symmetrical), so you couldn't reasonably have a 9 stage starter list unless you used a weird counterpick list that excludes some starters.

 

[Overswarm]

Only one ban means you really need to really limit the overall counterpick list or you'll end up with a high concentration of matchups where the counterpicking character has a severe level of advantage on more than one stage. 9 is really pushing the limit, and personally I like 8 more. But in that case you would either need 5 or 7 starters (5 is the more fair of these given that the picking order is symmetrical), so you couldn't reasonably have a 9 stage starter list unless you used a weird counterpick list that excludes some starters.

Having a "severe level of advantage on more than one stage" is irrelevant in a best of 3. If you play in a best of 3, you only get one counterpick. If you only have two CP stages or have 27 CP stages, you get to play the same amount -- one.

The only thing that matters is disparity in higher bo# sets and if the # of bans is > # of CP stages of that type

 

[Master WGS]

I see your starter list, and if we're talking the fixed Lylat from TKBreezy's thing (because current Lylat is garbage), I'd be okay with it.

What would the counterpick list for your starter set be? Also, who specifically prefers "midsize stages" to either small or large ones? I feel like you'd go for either or for most characters, with midsize stages really benefiting no one specifically.

 

[Overswarm]

I see your starter list, and if we're talking the fixed Lylat from TKBreezy's thing (because current Lylat is garbage), I'd be okay with it.

What would the counterpick list for your starter set be? Also, who specifically prefers "midsize stages" to either small or large ones? I feel like you'd go for either or for most characters, with midsize stages really benefiting no one specifically.

The character qualities that enjoy mid-size stages typically involve one or more of the following:

• The necessity to play "footsie" rather than keep away or rush down (typically implied by low aerial and/or ground mobility)
• A recovery that is easily edgeguarded when done from far off stage (meaning they typically die via edgeguard, so extra size doesn't help)
• An inability to KO reliably except out of combos or via edgeguard
• Mid-range projectiles (Peach turnips, Diddy peanuts, Link bombs, etc.)
• Inability to combo extensively (2-4 hit combos being the norm)
• High knockback grabs (grabs that throw you a decent distance but rarely/never kill)

There are other qualities that you can look for as well, but those are the major ones I have noticed.

Most mid-stage characters typically play footsie, get an in, get a brief combo, knock the opponent off stage, then follow it up until death. This playstyle on a medium stage allows them to be deadly regardless of where they are on-stage, while on a larger or smaller stage their advantages wouldn't be as prevalent.

Most characters can fit at least one of the things above, but the more you qualify for the better you will typically do on medium sized stages.

Being good on medium stages doesn't necessarily mean you'll do poorly on small or large stages. Diddy does okay on larger stages depending on the matchup, but he excels the most on medium sized stages.

 

[Deleted member]

diddy just excels because that character is cancer. only one ban opens you up to brutal CPs and makes lots of characters immediately non-viable past game 1.

picking CPs based on preference rather than strict tactical advantage is hilariously bad btw

 

[Overswarm]

diddy just excels because that character is cancer. only one ban opens you up to brutal CPs and makes lots of characters immediately non-viable past game 1.

picking CPs based on preference rather than strict tactical advantage is hilariously bad btw

I wish I lived in the world you live in. :|

Diddy doesn't "just excel" because the character is cancer. Diddy has weaknesses. The biggest issue with him is that the majority of the stages in the game are designed specifically for characters like him. All of his natural strengths are effectively doubled. Imagine playing Melee if Dreamland was the status quo "medium" stage. Characters like Jiggs, Peach, and even Samus would do incredibly well.

If the status quo stage was Yoshi's Story, you'd have similar problems.

Why you do not see that the same thing happens when the status quo is a stage like Smashville or Battlefield is beyond me.

Pokemon Stadium 2 is a brutal counterpick for characters like Link and Diddy. Bowser can't do crap on PS2. Neither can Ganondorf. None of Jigglypuff's strengths are shown in that environment.

There is no such thing as a neutral stage for all matchups. You can find it for individual matchups with a lot of work, but there's no universal one.

Picking CPs and bans by preference is how it has always been done. Tactical advantage is a preference. If I'm playing Diddy and I have the options to go to PS2 or Smashville, both are good but I have different advantages on each. If I'm playing against a Bowser and I have to ban Yoshi's, WarioWare, or Green Hill Zone, I figure out what I want to deal with the least and ban that one.

If it's an actual balance issue, meaning "Oh, if Fox CPs stage X he has an insanely high win rate against the entire cast" then the stage should be banned. If it's Jigglypuff saying "This is bull****, Ganondorf shouldn't be able to CP me to Yoshi's or Warioware. I lose on those stages in this matchup! I need TWO bans so he can only take me to larger stages", then that's Jigglypuff's problem. It's an inherent weakness in the character. As long as Jiggs isn't forced to go to those stages for the initial match, it's all fair game.

 

[CBO0tz]

I wish I lived in the world you live in. :|

Diddy doesn't "just excel" because the character is cancer. Diddy has weaknesses. The biggest issue with him is that the majority of the stages in the game are designed specifically for characters like him. All of his natural strengths are effectively doubled. Imagine playing Melee if Dreamland was the status quo "medium" stage. Characters like Jiggs, Peach, and even Samus would do incredibly well.

If the status quo stage was Yoshi's Story, you'd have similar problems.

Why you do not see that the same thing happens when the status quo is a stage like Smashville or Battlefield is beyond me.

Pokemon Stadium 2 is a brutal counterpick for characters like Link and Diddy. Bowser can't do crap on PS2. Neither can Ganondorf. None of Jigglypuff's strengths are shown in that environment.

There is no such thing as a neutral stage for all matchups. You can find it for individual matchups with a lot of work, but there's no universal one.

Picking CPs and bans by preference is how it has always been done. Tactical advantage is a preference. If I'm playing Diddy and I have the options to go to PS2 or Smashville, both are good but I have different advantages on each. If I'm playing against a Bowser and I have to ban Yoshi's, WarioWare, or Green Hill Zone, I figure out what I want to deal with the least and ban that one.

If it's an actual balance issue, meaning "Oh, if Fox CPs stage X he has an insanely high win rate against the entire cast" then the stage should be banned. If it's Jigglypuff saying "This is bull****, Ganondorf shouldn't be able to CP me to Yoshi's or Warioware. I lose on those stages in this matchup! I need TWO bans so he can only take me to larger stages", then that's Jigglypuff's problem. It's an inherent weakness in the character. As long as Jiggs isn't forced to go to those stages for the initial match, it's all fair game.

Harsh.. But I guess if Jiggs was good enough to be somebody's main in a competitive tourney, it should be able to fight somebody even with a field disadvantage. Or a person will have to swap to a secondary.

 

[shapular]

I see your starter list, and if we're talking the fixed Lylat from TKBreezy's thing (because current Lylat is garbage), I'd be okay with it.

What would the counterpick list for your starter set be? Also, who specifically prefers "midsize stages" to either small or large ones? I feel like you'd go for either or for most characters, with midsize stages really benefiting no one specifically.

Current Lylat is fine. You're garbage. Stop johning and get better.

 

[Master WGS]

Current Lylat is fine. You're garbage. Stop johning and get better.

Sorry I don't support janky ledges when we actually have a means to fix them. I'm saying this as someone who frequently takes advantage of how poorly designed they are. I'm in the business of making victims of these flaws, not being one.

 

[-Fatality-]

Inspired by DrinkingFood's list of 5, I set out to make the most balanced starter list of 5 possible, did I hit the mark? Maybe.

(Small) Yoshi's Story (Very Low Ceiling) (Very Small Sides)
(Small-Medium) Green Hill Zone (Medium Ceiling) (Small Sides)
(Medium) Battlefield (High Ceiling) (Medium Sides
(Medium-Large) Yoshi's Island (Low Ceiling) (Large Sides)
(Large) Dreamland (Very High Ceiling) (Very Large Sides)

Of the 5 different stage sizes, each one is represented exactly once. Of the 5 different blast zone sizes, each one is represented exactly once, making for well-balanced stage sizes and blast zones.
The particular selection of stages also doesn't seem to obviously favor any kind of characters, though maybe I'm missing something obvious. I think the biggest problem with it is that it doesn't have PS2 or Smashville, and I'm not sure people would be willing to part with them since they're so popular. Though if you're primary concern with a stage list is maximum balance, I'm not sure you can do any better with just 5.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I am currently waiting on getting a laptop, but can someone (agreed by others) characterize each stage by stage size, side blastzones, ceiling, platform heights/platforms. And by stage size, I mean physical main platform length. Sure, being in the middle of PS2 to the side blastzone is decently long. However, if (I don't know...) the distance from edge might be close.

How would I go about testing that once I get it on dolphin? Not just those, distances between platforms, blastzone differences between plats, etc...

 

[DrinkingFood]

Inspired by DrinkingFood's list of 5, I set out to make the most balanced starter list of 5 possible, did I hit the mark? Maybe.

(Small) Yoshi's Story (Very Low Ceiling) (Very Small Sides)
(Small-Medium) Green Hill Zone (Medium Ceiling) (Small Sides)
(Medium) Battlefield (High Ceiling) (Medium Sides
(Medium-Large) Yoshi's Island (Low Ceiling) (Large Sides)
(Large) Dreamland (Very High Ceiling) (Very Large Sides)

Of the 5 different stage sizes, each one is represented exactly once. Of the 5 different blast zone sizes, each one is represented exactly once, making for well-balanced stage sizes and blast zones.
The particular selection of stages also doesn't seem to obviously favor any kind of characters, though maybe I'm missing something obvious. I think the biggest problem with it is that it doesn't have PS2 or Smashville, and I'm not sure people would be willing to part with them since they're so popular. Though if you're primary concern with a stage list is maximum balance, I'm not sure you can do any better with just 5.

You have 3 triangle platform set-ups, heavily promoting platform camping. I used smashville in place of your BF to avoid this.
And when you replace that on your list, you end up with three stages with single platforms, which isn't that big of a deal, but PS2 is wider so it fills out the large stage size category better, and offers better variety. Also GHZ is a higher ceiling than BF.

 

[RIDLEY is too SMALL]

I am currently waiting on getting a laptop, but can someone (agreed by others) characterize each stage by stage size, side blastzones, ceiling, platform heights/platforms. And by stage size, I mean physical main platform length. Sure, being in the middle of PS2 to the side blastzone is decently long. However, if (I don't know...) the distance from edge might be close.

How would I go about testing that once I get it on dolphin? Not just those, distances between platforms, blastzone differences between plats, etc...

Not sure how you go about testing that stuff, but some parts of that information have already been documented by others. Here's the info that I've located. I should add that I did not gather this data myself--I simply found it on the PM subreddit and am assuming that the information is mostly accurate.


The following set of info (obtained from https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...VLQlp3MmZNZ1J0c1pBVTI2Mnc&usp=drive_web#gid=8) defines the x-coordinates of the horizontal blast zones, with the first number corresponding to the left side blast zone and the second number corresponding to the right side blast zone (and the third number in parenthesis is the sum of the absolute value of both coordinates and therefore the total horizontal distance between the left and right blast zones):

Left Blast Zone X-Coordinate, Right Blast Zone X-Coordinate, (and Total Horizontal Width of Stage)
Warioware: -170, 170 (340)
Yoshi's Story: -175.7, 173.6 (349.3)
GHZ: -190, 190 (380)
FoD: -198.75, 198.75 (397.5)
Yoshi's Island: -220, 220 (440)
Smashville: -220, 220 (440)
Battlefield: -224, 224 (448)
Lylat: -230, 230 (460)
Skyworld: -230, 230 (460)
Skyloft: -230, 240 (470)
Distant Planet: -235, 235 (470)
Metal Cavern: -240, 240 (480)
FD: -246, 246 (492)
PS2: -250, 250 (500)
Dreamland: -255, 255 (510)
Dracula: -260, 260 (520)


Now, here are the distances between the edge of each stage and the side blast zones, arranged from closest to farthest (obtained from http://www.reddit.com/r/SSBPM/comments/2c7gsz/complete_blast_zone_data_for_common_stages/):

Blast Zone Distances from Edge of Stage
Warioware: 113.19 (left side) and 110.4 (right side)
Distant Planet: 115 (both sides)
Yoshi's Story: 119.7 (left side) and 117.6 (right side)
GHZ: 130 (both sides)
FoD: 135.4 (both sides)
Lylat: 136.22 (both sides)
Metal Cavern: 147.5 (left side) and 120.73 (right side)
Skyloft: 150 (left side) and 140.5 (right side)
Yoshi's Island: 149.53 (left side) and 150.58 (right side)
Smashville: 150.94 (left side) and 149.75 (right side)
Battlefield: 155.6 (both sides)
PS2: 156.22 (both sides)
FD: 160.44 (both sides)
Skyworld: 166.33 (left side) and 184.09 (right side)
Dreamland: 177.73 (both sides)
Dracula: 179.45 (both sides)


Logically, if you take the blast zone distances from the edges of a given stage and subtract those numbers from the total horizontal distance between the left and right side blast zones, you will get the width of the main solid part of the stage itself. Below are the widths of each stage's main central platform, arranged from shortest to longest:

Width of Main Stage Platform:
Skyworld: 109.58
Yoshi's Story: 112
Warioware: 116.41
GHZ: 120
FoD: 126.7
Battlefield: 136.8
Smashville: 139.31
Yoshi's Island: 139.89
Dreamland: 154.54
Dracula: 161.1
FD: 171.12
Skyloft: 179.5
Lylat: 187.56 (??? I don't think Lylat is this big)
PS2: 187.56
Metal Cavern: 211.77 (??? this seems incorrect)
Distant Planet: 240 (this might be pre-3.0 Distant Planet?)


EDIT: I do not actually know the ceiling heights (distance between the ceiling and the main stage platform). I only have info about the y-coordinates of the top blast zones and the bottom blast zones.


I do not know if all of this information is accurate since I obtained the numbers from sources that I stumbled upon on the PM subreddit while looking for stage data. Some of the stage width data I calculated seems off.

I definitely think it would be beneficial if there was a hub for everyone to be able to look at and examine the different properties of the stages. Like, I don't even know if the info I gathered is all true. It would be awesome if all of this info could be found somewhere so that everyone in the community could examine the different aspects of each stage and be able to decide which stages would be best to include in a balanced stagelist (or just to better understand what stages would be good counterpicks for their main, or in certain matchups, etc.)

*I should also note that I neglected to include the data for PS1. Also, I do not have any stage data on Norfair 3.5, so it is not included here.

 

[Kankato]

What is the distance between each stage's ceiling and their "floor" (floor = where you fight, floor ≠ bottom blast zone)? How far is it from their highest platform? Side platforms? Do you know?