Project M Back Room Releases Blog Post on v3.5, Recoveries

[QuickLava]

I don't care if the recoveries get nerfed, as long as they don't touch D3's waddledash. Also Roy's recovery should be buffed. It's complete ass.

 

[THT Shadow]

LOL RIP Mewtwo and Pit

 

[Daftatt]

First off, this whole thread is comedy gold. Everyone who is reacting negatively to this gives me joy, the PMBR talks about legitimate design goals and how it's implementing them, and everyone fears for their main like the PMBR is going to nerf them into oblivion. Yall a bunch of scaredy cats, just trust the PMBR, they've gotten this far and the game is pretty damn good.

KEEP CALM AND SECURE YOUR WRIST STRAPS, THE FUTURE IS FULL OF WONDERS

So what? Nerf everyone? What about the characters with lackluster recoveries like Falco and Squirtle? What about Fox? Will his recovery get nerfed?

HA! Squirtle's recovery is not lackluster, neither is fox's. Wombat plz

Squirtle's recovery can be downright guaranteed if he is recovering high. You're over reacting to this.

 

[Unwavering_Canadian]

Can the Project M board make smash DI easier to input? In melee, I would SDI fox up air quite often to get out. It seems so much harder in this game. I dunno if it's smash di in general or the fox up-air but up-throw up-air kills are pretty annoying at low percents.

 

[JCOnyx]

HA! Squirtle's recovery is not lackluster, neither is fox's. Wombat plz

Squirtle's recovery can be downright guaranteed if he is recovering high. You're over reacting to this.

To be fair, Squirtle has one of the most balanced recoveries of the Brawl cast. The only reason I brought up possible nerfs for him is because I play the little guy so often I know what options could use some tweaking.

And almost anybody can recover from high, that's why it's usually the best option to DI up into the corner of the stage. The distance he can recover from when below the stage though... is pretty poor.

 

[Alex Night]

While I'm glad recoveries are being nerfed so the general speed of the game will be drastically sped up, I'm also a bit sad. It's almost guaranteed that my main Link is going to be hit with a recovery nerf since he has crazy recovery options.



They're nerfing recoveries because a the big amount of complaints from the Melee players that the game is too slow compared to Melee, also coining the term "Project Recovery". If you look at the top tier Melee cast, they all have very simple and easily edge-guarded recoveries so they get killed off much faster then a PM character, therefore extending the length of the average game.

I seriously doubt they're going to hit any characters with already bad recoveries as it makes no sense and are instead are going to hit the best recovery characters with a load of options like Mario, Link and maybe Ivysaur. Those are just a few I know with really good recoveries on the top of my head.

I am going to have to respectfully disagree about Link's recovery options. While they are good and goes miles to help him back on stage, it takes practice to use the AGT with Bomb Jump effectively and his Clawshot isn't that far in comparison to somebody like Samus. You could mistime your AGT and not be able to get the high point of the push to hit the bomb with your Up B or your Up B will be too stale to set the bomb off. Link's recovery options seem plentiful, but they aren't easy to pull off. Frankly, Link players should continue to be rewarded for being able to pull off timings like that. Link's already a solid character that doesn't need any drastic changes. Even with that, Link is still at a disadvantage against the edgeguarder.

Pit is the one that worries me more right now considering that he has a very safe edgeguarding option that is Neutral B with little risk to his safety and high reward for set up on Fair KO. Not to mention when he can still keep his jumps (which is something like 3 or 4 or something close to that by the way) after exiting out of a Glide when another character like Charizard who is one of the biggest targets in the game loses his two mid air jumps after going into Fly, meaning that he is dead in the air if he is hit unlike Pit who still has fresh jumps to burn. It makes no sense to not do something to Pit's recovery options considering he is like a Melee Sheik with wings right now.

 

[EmptySky00]

About time they realized recoveries are too good.



It's not like they think the entire cast's recovery is too good. Mario, Roy, Marth, etc will probably remain unchanged.

It's hard to make recovery unpredictable without it being stupid good.

Besides it's not like you should get an equal chance to get back onto the stage as your opponent has to edge-guard you. Edge-guarding situations are rewards for getting your opponent off-stage after all.

Mario? Nononono. Mario's an offender too. The character never ****ing dies and his up B is God.

 

[Master WGS]

I love how scrubs go into panic mode the second they see the word "nerf." If you're good, you'll adapt. I hope my main's recovery gets knocked down a couple pegs because I hate how slow it makes things even WHEN I'm edge-guarded properly.

Personally, this isn't about X characters being broken because their recovery is too good, it's the fact that games where characters can keep coming back for more almost indefinitely aren't fun to play. Yes, it takes thinking to halt these recoveries, which is good. No, that doesn't suddenly mean it speeds up the process, which is bad. Even if edge-guarded properly, Lucas/Diddy (my characters) making their return trip waste precious time. I'm not saying the recoveries are unstoppable, just that even WHEN they're stopped, they slow down the game - and that's bad. In the race to fun, slow and steady loses every time.

Seriously, let's just let these guys keep pushing this game farther and farther away from vBrawl until we forget it ever happened.

 

[JCOnyx]

Mario's hands are literally magnets. He doesn't even have to be remotely close to the ledge to grab it out of an UpB.

Cape + Tornado + UpB + Walljump + Good Weight = Never dies ever

 

[DirtyPete]

people are saying "oh god theyre going to nerf all the recoveries " but if you actually read it, it seems like theyre just nerfing the ones that dont take much skill. i think the characters that have to do weird technical **** to get closer to the stage before they can even use their recovery wont be nerfed

 

[FumiQyn]

I do play Yoshi and it would be great if the characters such as Link and Pit got a recovery nerf. My character takes a great deal of skill to get back on the stage with and my options all have a risk and reward factor.

I won't go in depth with everything Yoshi can do but I'll list two examples.

1. Know Yoshi's up b doesn't give him any height or distance increase, so I have to be smart with my double jump. If I'm not careful I can easily be gimped.

2. If I'm lucky enough to grab the edge I have few tricks. The idea is I do not have as many ledge options as other characters but I have a higher double jump than any character.

try adjusting not nerfing.

 

[0RLY]

Since nobody visits the Wario boards, I just felt like one of our greatest posts belongs here.

Plus, it just feels more like Melee with less options too, which I think is a good thing. Too many options can be a really bad thing for a metagame, and P:M was giving a lot of characters a lot more options than they ought to have in order to lay the foundation for a healthier, more robust metagame to be built naturally. Restrictions breed creativity. The creative space in these characters' kits is what makes this game so interesting. It's why we've been playing Melee for going on 13 years now. This is why nerfing all this ridiculous crap is a good thing. I always like to say that design is a subtractive process, much like carving a statue out of stone. When you begin with a stone, the statue is technically already in there, you just need to find all that is extraneous and subtract it from the rock, leaving a work of art and science behind. Because design is a craft. Previous versions of P:M had a lot of extraneous crap thrown at the wall, and I'm glad to see that not all of it is sticking.

Great job on these changes, I applaud you, balance team. Taking this game in the right direction. I say this in all seriousness: ON WITH THE NERFS!

 

[Alex Night]

People are just blowing Mario's recovery potential way out of proportions. Seriously, it's not like he is Sonic who has one of the best recoveries in the game. He can only use Down B in the air once to raise up and the Cape does exactly what it should be doing since Melee. Mario's been that good at recovery in Melee with the Cape + Tornado + Up B into Wall Jump into another Up B. It's not relatively new in Project M and people have been learning to edgeguard Mario/Doc Mario for years in Melee.

People, Mario is fine as he is on recovery options. I will admit that his ledge sweetspot could use some adjusting, but nothing worse than his sweetspot ability in Melee. Other than that, his recovery options are fine and I would be very disappointed if the devs take away any of Mario's recovery tools that he has had in Melee. Once he burns his double jump and his Galaxy Spin, it takes just one solid hit to make Mario unable to come back. He takes work to be able to come back with the tools he has and still has in Melee; even then, his recovery isn't that great if he is way too far from the ledge or at a very low angle. He isn't "Deep Kong" as people love to call Diddy Kong nowadays.

 

[\Apples]

Since nobody visits the Wario boards, I just felt like one of our greatest posts belongs here.

That old post, eh? You flatter me. Embarrass It represents the day my faith in Project: M was solidified. I knew that this game would absolutely be done truly right, that it would just take time.

That said, although I was fully expecting this design refocus, I am still very excited to see the fruit it yields. I don't even feel compelled to voice my opinions on design on the boards anymore because I'm convinced that PMBR will sort it all out in time.

 

[D-idara]

NO NO NO! I'll continue playing 3.2 I guess, I can't stand crappy-recovery characters and the fact that you can't blink because you fall to your death...

I really hope they don't nerf my main man Mario's recovery, it's the right amount of hard, it doesn't reach too far but he's got the tools to mix it up...instead of removing L-Cancel or making it easier, you're striving to make the recovery game harder so annoying gimping becomes the only way to play...I knew those awesome alternate costumes were just a way to lure people in just so you can add more of Melee's cons and call them good things

I guess my "PM and Smash4 for main games" turned into just Smash4 if you're going to give in to a bunch of Melee extremists who can't fathom that a character should be able to recover, you're probably gonna nerf Sonic's, which will in turn nerf his aerial game, and you're probably going to mess with Pit's, are you going to make that shield rise even lower!?

This is the PM equivalent of when Sakurai said there would be no SSE for Smash4, massive dissapointment from a team you THOUGHT knew they were doing.

 

[SmashShadow]

Mario (No second walljump)
Mewtwo (No float after teleport and teleport to edge limit)
Diddy (No random barrels, maybe slight up B distance nerf)
Pit (No jumps after glide?)
Lucas (Ivysaur like air stalling)
Ike (No second walljump)
ZSS (Down B distance nerf)
Sonic (Probably down B in the air having more cooldown)
Samus (I have no idea on this one)

Tether recovery nerfs in general.

 

[Vigilante]

Okay, let's do this *cracks knuckles*

I would invite everyone who interprets this in terms of buffs and nerfs to look at this change for what it is: a design choice. None of this was made with the intent to make characters inherently worse, and as we go forward with developement, those changes will be taken into account into the game's overall balance.

Furthermore, not every recoveries will be affected, only those that don't fall into the Project M design philosophy. You can easily assume that a character with an under-average recovery will for the most part be virtually unchanged by this.

This is not to say that all recoveries will automatically become "bad". Our goal is not to make recoveries inneficient overall, but to make sure that recoveries aren't necessarily too safe either. There needs to be a little bit of struggle when coming back on stage, but not to the point were the player feels entierly helpless.

Anyways, I must get to work, I can post a bit later.

 

[Sqa$]

Here's what I would really love to be as changes to come, because they make sense to me.

1. Mario's recovery will almost be untouched, but wall jump will be removed after up-b.
2. Mewtwo's second jump shortened slightly to stop from sailing through the universe without even using the up-b.
3. Diddy Kong loses distance on Up b or at least falls faster

And here's some stuff I'm expecting, but don't necessarily want, because I play them, haha.

1. Ivysaur's dair doesn't stop momentum as often (like after the first time, it is useless to use it again) and his up b length is much shorter.
2. Lucario will have less length on up b
3. Pit has to choose gliding or jumping like Charizard does.

None of these things are to make the character's the worst, but it just makes things harder for them to recover correctly.

 

[Joe73191]

Obviously this will change competitive PM. The Metagame is 100% different after this. However can't casuals just replace the new character files with the 3.02 versions to keep their mains the same?

 

[gpbear4]

i got that feeling watching melee

http://youtu.be/2F58lAKKhPY

 

[Sugar_Dunkerton]

This isn't going to end well. The only characters who don't already meet the criteria for their recovery objective are maybe Mewtwo or Pit. Even these characters can be interrupted when returning to the stage. People continuously fail to realize how well this game is balanced in its current version. I don't understand how people can't edge guard diddy. It's not hard at all. His trajectory is telegraphed for anyone who is observant enough to notice. It would be tragic to have players who have spent countless hours mastering their character to have to change characters or deal with harsh penalties. Don't let salt control the future of this game!

 

[WinterShorts]

Then again, Toon Link's recovery with the bombs is stupid as hell. Wasn't there the Wall of Pain to kind of keep the player off the stage if you were someone like Jigglypuff?

 

[Toss Event]

Personally, I feel that the only problem with recoveries are fast fallers getting good recoveries. We had fast paced matches in Melee because fast fallers had linear and somewhat easy to predict recoveries (Fox, Falco, Capt Falcon) with only floaties having good recoveries (Peach, Jiggs). This is probably the most balanced since floaties will have an easier time recovering but will die earlier vertically while fast fallers are more easily edgeguarded. In PM, we have fast fallers like Lucas and Diddy with either more options in recovering or just being able to cover so much distance that it's hard to kill them off.
With that said, I think floaties (such as Mewtwo) can keep their recoveries since they die off the top early anyways.

Overall, I think the problem is high survivability (not sure if an actual word) rather than simply good recovery.

 

[WizKid911]

I am sooooo surprised that there have been very little samus talk on here. Lol shocked

 

[Drexel]

While I'm glad recoveries are being nerfed so the general speed of the game will be drastically sped up, I'm also a bit sad. It's almost guaranteed that my main Link is going to be hit with a recovery nerf since he has crazy recovery options.



They're nerfing recoveries because a the big amount of complaints from the Melee players that the game is too slow compared to Melee, also coining the term "Project Recovery". If you look at the top tier Melee cast, they all have very simple and easily edge-guarded recoveries so they get killed off much faster then a PM character, therefore extending the length of the average game.

I seriously doubt they're going to hit any characters with already bad recoveries as it makes no sense and are instead are going to hit the best recovery characters with a load of options like Mario, Link and maybe Ivysaur. Those are just a few I know with really good recoveries on the top of my head.

edit: okay apparently Link and Ivysaur don't have good recoveries that should be considered nerfable, they were just examples anyways. I don't actually think they're OP.

Mario's recovery definitely will be affected, Link, even though he has a lot of edge options, does struggle when flung straight sideways, I know because I main him as well. Ivysaur's is debatable though. I think it will be more aimed to characters who have great recovery like Diddy, Mewtwo, maybe Kirby, Pit and Meta Knight.

 

[Eisen]

I'm really excited. So excited I can hardly contain myself. With the advent of this update, a lot more characters will play how they're supposed to and get more reward off their offense. See: Bowser, Ganon, Lucas, Squirtle

 

[TimeSmash]

How about we not restore the freefall Zelda has after using Din's in the air because that would just be horrid

 

[Frost | Odds]

All the ivysaur players on the first few pages are hilarious, sounding like they got caught with their hand in the cookie jar.

"I know my character's recovery is broken but don't balance it pleaaaaaaaase"

 

[TimeSmash]

I don't think Ivysaur's recovery is that hard to deal with...but I do think Mario's is borderline ridiculous and will probably get nerfed. I don't see a huge problem with toning down recoveries, and not a lot of people have considered some might actually get buffs. Sheik's could have more range or less landing lag. Being able to recover from virtually anywhere is kind of bogus. That's why they are getting toned down. Some definitely already have elements of balance, like the immense startup of Zelda's Up B or other things like that. If a game requires you to think more, that's not bad really. It means recoveries will have more risk and offstage edgeguarding gets restored. It's much better than say, L-cancelling, a mechanic that doesn't make the most sense when you think about its risk-reward mechanics haha

 

[EpixAura]

This is definitely scary from a balance point of view. While many recoveries are simply too good, that's usually to offset a problem in another aspect of their game. If they didn't excel in recovery, the power would simply be redistributed to another aspect of the character. That said, some characters just need a change to their recovery to bring them into line with the rest of the cast.

What I'm worried about is Marth and Metaknight (and a few other strong characters with strong edgeguarding) becoming much too dominant as a result of this. Marth is already very strong, but I could easily see him becoming the 'best' character. I personally think MK is slightly overrated, but he's definitely one of the strongest characters and giving his opponents less options is definitely something to think very carefully about. Of course, there's a good possibility MK's recovery will take a hit as well.

That said, I do like the idea of adjusting the cast's recoveries. However, it will be a balancing nightmare for the PM backroom although most of them have dealt with that before. My main question is whether this will be an overall physics or mechanic play, or a set of tweaks to specific characters. I'd love to see the unforgiving edges of Melee make a return, but I can definitely see some problems that would cause.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

WARIO TIIIIIIME

 

[DrinkingFood]

Rob - no air dodge after side b and up b

This would be terrible. That's essential to his ability to move around on stage.

 

[Frost | Odds]

WARIO TIIIIIIME

oh my god he'll be amazing with nerfed recoveries

 

[FumiQyn]

Okay, let's do this *cracks knuckles*

I would invite everyone who interprets this in terms of buffs and nerfs to look at this change for what it is: a design choice. None of this was made with the intent to make characters inherently worse, and as we go forward with developement, those changes will be taken into account into the game's overall balance.

Furthermore, not every recoveries will be affected, only those that don't fall into the Project M design philosophy. You can easily assume that a character with an under-average recovery will for the most part be virtually unchanged by this.

This is not to say that all recoveries will automatically become "bad". Our goal is not to make recoveries inneficient overall, but to make sure that recoveries aren't necessarily too safe either. There needs to be a little bit of struggle when coming back on stage, but not to the point were the player feels entierly helpless.

Anyways, I must get to work, I can post a bit later.

people always take things too seriously whenever you throw in words like buff and nerf. just do your best and keep up the good work.

 

[jotun]

Sounds good to me! I haven't even been around here to hear any of the discussion about it, and I just started playing PM seriously-ish, but I was also feeling that there are just too many infinite recoveries.

1. Most of the Brawl cast has it too easy.

2. There are several characters who already had very good recovery in Melee, but weren't high-tier so nobody cared. Improving their combat effectiveness in PM now brings their recovery into the light.

 

[Coonce]

Since I'm about 99% sure Jigglypuff won't be getting a recovery nerf, I am all for this!

 

[TimeSmash]

Since I'm about 99% sure Jigglypuff won't be getting a recovery nerf, I am all for this!

Imagine. Press B during Jigglypuff's UpB to extend its range and propel yourself in the air haha

 

[BBOP]

But...but Lucas...

 

[Anuran]

Woah... what? Ivysaur only option is a tether we all know how force jumps can be punished. Yeah, it's long reaching but it's predictable. I also believe dair only slows momentum after two uses. See her on the average to weaker side of recoveries only because her up b is so long.

I don't see Link getting touched either. A lot of his tricks are needed for him to not be low tier. Meta Knight doesn't have to glide to recover, but he can. Link nearly has to AGT to come back from horizontal trajectories.

I agree that Mario is going to get looked at for a nerf but not as much as people who can glide like Meta Knight, Pit, and Charizard or characters like Mewtwo and Diddy Kong. Samus has amazing recovery, too, and between bomb jump stalls, a solid up b, floatyness and great air control and one of the longest tethers in the game I amaze no one complains about her. Hell charge shot not only pushes you in the opposite direction but stalls your drop speed.

I think its because Samus's recovery is like her thing you know? It, along with amazing projectiles are her niche.

 

[BluntedMask]

Hey! Going offstage might actually be a risk now.